Hi All, this is my first post, so thanks for any replies. I'm a mother of 2 and wife of almost 8 years. Before children, we had a very active sex life, but after I had my first child, sex was painful. We finally started using lubrication and that helped, but little by little I really just lost interest in sex. I always thought it was because I was so tired at the end of the day from working, taking care of the home and kids, etc, but now I wonder if it's because I'm not attracted to my husband. I also wonder if it's just a physical or mental problem with me. Sex always seems to be #1 on his list which also bothers me terribly. And it bothers me that he is always groping me and it makes me feel fat (still have those last 10-15 baby pounds to lose). I always tell him to stop but he doesn't. I still have sex with him once a week just to keep him happy, but he says it's not enough. I would like to know where should I begin to figure out what the problem is. I asked my doc about the physical part and he changed my birth control and said that it should help. I don't see much difference. I think I might have several problems to deal with, but I'm lost and don't know where to begin. Thanks!

Welcome to MarriageBuilders. Sounds like you've read about ENs and have identified his. What about yours?

Did you read Lovebusters and about the Lovebank, also? I have a feeling that pre-children, your love bank was really full, so SF was active and fulfilling. Kids do take a lot out of you. You don't mention if it is still painful. Is it?

What does SF represent to your H? What does it represent to you? Since it is an emotional need, not just a physical one, this question is important.

I can tell you why I lost interest...resentments. I resented my H for not living up to my expectations and for him wanting SF without doing anything for me. Tit for tat. I lived by that. Not a good way to have a marriage. Sex also became painful for me, off and on, and I, too, did my duty. After five years of OB/GYN's saying it was something it wasn't, trying birthcontrol (which I wasn't on) shots and trying to reduce fibroids, I found out that a hysterectomy was an elective surgery and I could ask for it.

I'm much older, most likely, though you don't say. I began a whole new life after surgery. No pain, all gain.

I let go of my resentment and enjoyed the heck out of SF. Didn't stop my marriage from going down the tubes, though. My H still held resentment for me doing my duty. It represented my acceptance of him, enjoyment of his love and admiration. Ooops. I lovebusted that one, huh?

You're judging his ENs, like what we need defines us, makes us good or bad. If SF represents acceptance and love in a physical way of connecting to you...would that be a bad #1?

You feel fat when groped. Not his doing. Yours. Same with your attraction or no attraction for him.

During bad times, my H looked very unattractive to me. I could find 10 things appalling about him at any given time. And it was during those times when he wanted SF the most--because he could feel my disconnection, disapproval and became desperate for feeling accepted. Quite a revolving door, huh? In marriage, there are a lot of those.

You don't feel respected because he won't stop groping. If you make groping your boundary after reading what I wrote above, then what would be the consequences of him groping? What actions would you take?

If you don't see a difference with what your doc suggested, go back and tell him, not good enough! Or get a second opinion.

The good news is on the mental side of your question. If you have a problem with resentments, you have the cure for it in your own hands! It is where I started first. Helped get all the other stuff into perspective. Resentments blur reality and smudge truth. We pile them up because they feed us in a way. Like junk food. Temporary benefits to long term harm.

How you feel about your body (your expectation of being thinner than you were pre-kids) is within your control, also. Sounds like your H thinks you're hot as you are and you won't respect him enough to believe him. He thinks you're hot, but you don't. Sounds like something within your control, too.

Good news all the way around. And you're here! You care about your marriage and yourself enough to root stuff out.

Awesome.

LA

Thanks so much for the reply. I'll go through and answer your questions. Sex isn't painful all the time, just sometimes but for most parts it's enjoyable. It's just getting in the mood is what I don't want to do. It's like a task, has it been a week since we last had sex, then ok, if not, don't bother me (even though he bothers me almost everyday). I haven't read the books you mentioned. I'm 32. What are EN and SFs? EN=emotional needs? I don't know what mine are, I don't know if I have any? Actually I do want to feel attractive, but I think I want other men to find me attractive.. or maybe not other men, but other people. Not to have an affair or anything like that, but it's like your parents, they HAVE to say you are beautiful right? That's how I feel about my husband wanting me, he has to. I do know I want him to grow up a little and help around the house without making me nag him. Does that count? I do think he uses sex sometimes as getting a connection with me since we aren't intimate at all. Pecks on the lips, short hugs that's about all we do and that's ok with me but not him and I don't blame him, but I'm not interested in anything else. I don't like deep kisses anymore, I'm always the one that pulls away from the hugs. But I also think he is just horny and it isn't me that he wants, just sex. So to me, I think it's probably a 70/30 split for him, physical/emotional. Youre right, I do have control to change the "I'm not attractive" problem. But even if I was over it, would that help? I'm not sure about your groping question.. when he gropes I just yell at him to stop and that I don't like it, but it doesn't matter to him. I had planned to talk to my doc about the problem, but there just never seems to be enough time in the day.

You definitely have ENs, DINH (abbreviating your name)...close to Dinah...I like that.

We all do. You might not be in touch with any of them...I wasn't! I was all out giver/pleaser/fixer and didn't look out for myself.

SF..sexual fulfillment. Here's a link to abbreviations:

MB Abbreviations

If you want to feel attractive, and that depends on how others see you, then that EN would be admiration and appreciation, I think. What do you think?

No, my parents do not have to say I'm beautiful. They feel THEY do because admiration is their love language. It's not mine, lol. I wanted my H to say I was beautiful and desirable, but when he did, I wouldn't believe him. In the last two years I've been practicing self-admiration, appreciation and acceptance. Triple A program. Works wonders.

You slipped out of your ENs right back into what he isn't doing for you by saying you want him to grow up. You really have to read LoveBusters. How would you feel if your H felt that way about you?

You sound very honest, so I'm not bashing you. Just pointing out that how you view the world is up to you. Not the world.

Help around the house...Domestic Support. DS. Not to be confused with Dear Son. Anyway, sounds like acts of service are a love language for you.

And Affection. That might be your H's top EN, also, because SF and Affection are really closely related.

Were you really affectionate when your lovebank was full?

Is it something you miss or have coaxed yourself out of wanting it?

If his affection feels like a pass to you, then that's in your control, too. Sounds like you feel invaded by your H's attention.

See, by disrespectfully judging (DJ) your H by assuming he only wants a warm body and you're there for the taking, you are lovebusting him and yourself. No connection through words? Communication? Conversation? Could that be a big EN for you?

When you yell at him to stop, you're lovebuster. Next time, whisper. If he doesn't, remove yourself from the room. If he pursues, then tell him how you feel, "I feel groped like an object. I feel anger and frustration and very disrespected by you." If he continues, remove yourself from the house for 15 minutes.

Those steps are boundary enforcements. You decide how to protect your boundary, of what sounds like to me, is respect.

Do me a favor and make paragraphs? Don't worry about length of your post...I really enjoying all that you have to say. It is very difficult for me to seperate your thoughts and refer to what you wrote when it is lumped together.

Getting the books is a good start...His Needs, Her Needs goes over the ENs and the lovebank. Lovebusters is its own book, too. You can also read Harley's articles here on this site through links at the top of the page on all of them. Lots of great stuff here.

Some non-Harley material you might be interested in...

"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and "The Seven Principles of Marriage."

LA

doineedhelp,
I will ask few question before to say anything. first of all I agree with the point that women's SF get changed after child birth saying that still they get Orgasms and if women start satisfying them by masturbating they feel less atractive toward their patners. I am not sure if this is the case with u. the reason I said this cause I was watching a program on the tele with the same problems couples were going through. those womens who were trying to hide their feelings from their Hs end up with divorce and the once who opened up their feelings to their Hs they were having good relationship on the same time keep trying to overcome to this problem.

So u have to communicate with ur H and tell him all your feelings otherwise you will be in kind of depression feelings where you are hiding ur own feelings and your H got no clue how to help u out.

I got the feeling that my wife was in the same situation. everytime I ask her for sex she get frustrated and we were hardly having sex once in a month. and I cannot remember that if my wife had made any advance to start sex. and whenever I asked her why is that, she simply tells me that she don't get feelings. and most of the time she is tired and need rest. but before we seperated she told me that she use to do masturbating in day time therefore she never felt any attraction towards me.

so you have see all these areas. and most importantly communicate with your H and tell him how u feel.
KFH

Loving has given you great advice. I could have written parts of her post!

Do you enjoy sex? Are you having orgasms? When I didn't enjoy sex and didn't have orgasms it wasn't a big deal to me if I didn't have it. Now that I do enjoy and have orgasms, well, the more I have with my husband, the more I want. I read that somewhere too.

Men do not like to feel that SF is an obligation to you. They want to feel like you want it just as much as they do, and that it's just as good for you. What about showing him what you like?

LA, thanks for the link, makes it much easier for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here are the answers to your questions.

If you want to feel attractive, and that depends on how others see you, then that EN would be admiration and appreciation, I think. What do you think?

Yes, you are right, I do think that is something I would like.

Were you really affectionate when your lovebank was full?

That was a while ago, but when we first started dating, yes definitely, we made out whenever we had the chance.

Is it something you miss or have coaxed yourself out of wanting it?

I don't miss it because I don't enjoy his kisses, etc, it seems.

No connection through words? Communication? Conversation? Could that be a big EN for you?

We do talk, communication doesn't seem to be a problem for us. He knows I'm not interested in sex but he also knows that I want to make him happy too even if that means having sex when I don't want to.

Thanks for the reply KFH and sharing your experiences. I do actually rely on masturbation, but we do that together during the act and I don't do it alone..never have time lol. I wonder if my issue is not being attracted to him anymore and I know that would hurt him so I haven't said anything about that to him. I have said that I would like him to exercise with me several times, but he really hasn't gotten the hint yet. Since I'm not sure if that's the problem, I don't want to say anything yet. I don't make any advances to start sex, that is all him. I did give him an extra Valentines present by initiating sex that morning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh, DINH...I LOVE the underscores for quotations. I think you've hit on something here. Good graphical eye.

Boy, I sound more important that way to myself. LOL.

Try filling out the EN questionnaire for yourself. I know it is difficult, but you don't have to run through it. You can consider it over a few days and see what you come up with. I was guessing like crazy from your posts and you know yourself a heckuvalot better than I do.

From your answers, sounds like if he fills your Lovebank back up to where it was when you were dating, he will get his ENs met as well as meeting yours. I know you meet the SF. He knows you don't do it gladly. That's half meeting that EN, IMHO. Also, you sound like your Giver has taken over your life and your Taker is ready to pounce and take over.

Did you read about the Giver and Taker?

Here's that link (glad you like the service) The Giver and the Taker

Also, when you're at that article, look on the left and right sides of the page for more links to all sorts of great articles. Uhm, please? Easiest way to get there.

My definition of affection includes a touch on the shoulder in passing...or the hair, face...holding hands, hugs, back and foot rubs, any touch at all. Play footsy counts in my book. Words are affection, too (they touch the heart). Terms of endearment.

Last thing...since you don't miss what you once enjoyed, I suspect some resentments have piled up over your love for your H. Removing these will help for you to feel more loving and to receive love easier. Resentment can block any love deposits your H may be trying to make.

Here's the link to a thread about Resentments and an exercise you might want to try Our Resentments Read down toward the middle of the page.

Sounds to me like I'm giving you homework. Ack. Well, I guess that is what it is, huh? Home-Marriagework. There's no test and you can't fail from studying, though. No judgment here at all, 'k?

LA

Thanks also to coachswife for the reply. I guess I do enjoy sex while in the act and do have orgasms. It's just that I could do without it, you know?

Men do not like to feel that SF is an obligation to you. They want to feel like you want it just as much as they do, and that it's just as good for you. What about showing him what you like?

I completely agree. My husband would love for me to initiate sex but I don't because I don't want to have sex. But like I told KFH, I did do it on Valentines. He knows what I like so that doesn't really seem to be an issue. He always makes sure I am satisfied.

I often fantasize about other men. Is that an issue?

LA, youre right, I have a lot of homework to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll take a look at the links you've included and get back to you.

Thank you for your contributions, CW. You seem to have a good handle on this issue.

A question: How did you go from not enjoying sex to enjoying sex?

"I often fantasize about other men. Is that an issue?"

Yes. A big one.

LA

I wish my husband was still home. Just before we divorced our active sex life became quite hindered. He was worried I would get pregnant again. And more than that, my post pregnancy body made me feel less sexy and less interested. You see it wasn't about him. It was about me not feeling sexy. Now we have been divorced for 3 years and trying to reconcile for the last 2 years. I don't recommend divorcing your life partner or the man who is your soul mate and love of your life - even if he is the person who asked for it. My point is that 3 years after our divorce I'm at one of my heaviest weights but losing weight and starting to feel good again. We have a nice love life now after divorce compared to what it was like just before as you describe in your post. Make love deposits in as many ways as makes you comfortable. Love your body for what it is. Love your husband for wanting you and not another woman and show him how deeply you care and how deeply connected you are when you "make love" to him instead of just having sex with him. Look him straight in the eyes while you are in the act and tell him what makes you feel good in whatever way works best for you. You are blessed to have a man who wants you.

I AM HAVING THE SAME SORT OF ISSUE, MY SON IS 10 MONTHS OLD AND SINCE HE'S BEEN HERE THERE'S NO INTEREST IN SEX. MY H CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF IT BUT I JUST DON'T WANT TO. IT FEELS GOOD AND I DO HAVE ORGASMS (THEY'RE HARD TO ACHIEVE DUE TO THE FACT MY DOCTOR PUT ME ON AN ANTI-DEPRESSANT WHICH HAS THAT AS A SIDE EFFECT). HIS ADVANCES ANNOY ME UNTIL I GIVE IN AND IT STARTS TO FEEL GOOD AFTER THE FACT, IT'S JUST THE INITIAL "GETTING GOING" THAT I ALMOST.....DREAD I GUESS. I HATE TO SAY IT BUT I DO. I'M SO TIRED AND WORN OUT. BESIDES OUR SON I WORK FULL TIME FROM 4PM UNTIL MIDNIGHT. AHH! I'M A MESS!

so what happens when she does have an affair.. and you want to R... but at this moment she doesnt know what she wants... i dont want the SF i just want the EF back again.. i miss my family...

that was one of our problems and then one night i asked a girl if i kissed her would she tell my wife and she said yes.. Nothing happened after that No CONTACT or any thing else.. well i told my wife and she got pissed off. well one thing led to another and she had sex with my 19yo brother in sept.. they new it was wrong wife and i went to MC she stopped then i did the they starting back up again and then they started to have feeling for eachother. i found out about all of this on 1/6/06 and now we are seprerated and she is living in my house with him... what can i do.. was it really me that caused all of this with my wanting to have SF more than she did... i mean i work alot and when we are together we really dont talk about what we are really feeling... i truelly love this women but i try to show it and when i do it shows. but when i do those things like a deep kiss, grab her, hug he strongly, or make sexual comments she closes up.. how can i get her to notice that what she is doing is wrong and that i know what im doing is wrong and im working on it.. instead of it being just me and her having her cake and eating it too..

Hi,
Today is my first time on this forum. In regards to your situation I understand how you feel. I have been with my husband for 10 yrs married 4. In the beginning everything was very nice. Now I'm always tired. My husband constantly thinks about sex that he stays up at nite to watch porn on the computer. He saves all these pictures which bothers me so much. I'm about to confront him about this tomorrow when he comes back from busi trip. I have a 3yr old i just quit my job on friday and feel i at times have to make myself have sex eventhough i dont want to. I figure if i dont he will find it somewhere else. I say marriage is not easy!
I've been more honest with him and hes been more honest with me in regards to this situation. We need to find time for each other.. no matter how tired we are. I have this set in my mind already...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [color:"orange"] [/color]

She says he gropes her and doesn't stop even when she tells him to and that it's a daily thing. This sounds like he just wants to control her and is using sex as a weapon. He's not respecting her wishes or feelings. Am I the only one that thinks hounding her daily after 8 years and 2 kids is a bit excessive? This sounds like a borderline-abusive relationship to me. I wonder what would happen if she truly put her foot down and refused instead of giving in to get it over with?

My H gropes every day too but I dont see it as abusive, he loves me... loves my body.. I dont so it does nothing for me when he does it but he thinks he's making me feel better about my body. Could it be something like that?

But does he stop groping you when you ask him to or does he badger you until you give in? That's the part that alarmed me. He won't stop even when she asks him to.

If groping your wife,ven after she tells you tells you to stop, os abuse. Then a wife's nagging has got to be abuse as well. If she is like my wife, she has probably put out mixed signals. A little more and she'll give in (read on before you object). The thing about it is that once hse gives in and gets over the resentment, the enjoyment is there. And I will also go on to say that if the enjoyment is not there once we get started, I usually quit. I used to be okay with pity sex. Not any more.

If groping and trying to get your wife in the mood the only way you know how (because they won't tell us much else) is abuse in your book, you need to seriously rethink and adjust the male-bashing attitutde of thinking the worst. It may not be right, but it is NOT abuse. When your driving blind, you keep doing what you know to do because that's all you know. If she wants the groping to stop, show him what to do instead that would help him get the desired result. Our desired result is SF, but she hit the nail on the head earlier when she talked about wanting SF more when feeling disconnected. We want connection the same as you do. We're just kind of ignorant as to how to go about it.

I'm really glad that you posted, because I really think that this issue is underacknowledged, tremendously damaging to marriages, and also tremendously frustrating for BOTH people in the marriage.

There are several especially significant points that I can relate to.


It isn't [by your description] that you have no desire for sex, it is that you have no desire for sex with him. You are still attracted to other men, still having sexual drives and fantasies.

I would be willing to bet that your dating history prior to marriage was comprised of short term romances..fairly superficial..nothing very intimate.

Mine was, that is my nature..however, I am also a very committed woman, once I have decided to commit.

Do I think that ENs play a role here..yes but secondarily. I think that being frustrated or irritated can agitate and cause you to withdraw even further [because withdrawl is sort of your MO right?] I know for a fact that being groped while I am already withdrawn [or even if i'm not] irritates me..which is the exact opposite reaction that my and probably your H is hoping to elicit.

I know for sure that I don't want anyone to tell me I should feel differently about things than I do. If it annoys me..it annoys me.

Personally, I can have an orgasm any time I want. It isn't something that H does for me during sex..I'm not really sure if any man ever does [sorry guys]..generally it is all about where I am at, whether I am engaged, whether I am paying attention to what feels good and am.. for lack of better description.."into it".

I enjoy sex, I enjoy it with my H..I do think he is attractive in the sense that I like the way that he looks and I enjoy spending time with him as much as I ever have, but the fact remains that I don't get the almighty dopamine dump any longer.

What I *do* get is intimacy, something every other relationship [and I use the word generously] that I was in lacked. An endless series of short lived flings is not something I am willing..or even desiring to trade what I have to obtain...so what to do?

Well..I haven't arrived at the fount of all knowledge..but I can tell you what has been helpfull to me.

1..Acceptance that this is an aspect of my personality..not some shamefull or earth shattering flaw. Everyone has things like this. It may be impulsive behavior..low frustration threshold..whathaveyou..but most people just *do* have not terribly socially acceptable..and not conducive to healthy relationships..aspects to their nature. So, it is what it is. It isn't him, not really and he can't fix it.

2..Don't look. Sounds corny but it's really important. If you WANT to be married, if you WANT to enjoy that fruit..then you just ARE going to have to invest there and curb your impulses. So don't fantasize. Every fantasy takes you a step farther away from what you SAY that you want. The more that you engage in a psuedo affair with some figment of your imagination the more withdrawn you will be from your H. In fact, I really think that a lot of WS [wandering spouse] behavior will manifest..even in the absense of an OP.

3 Do address the issues of resentment and irritating behaviors. Find ways that you can really enjoy your time with him..not be turned off and wishing he'd leave you alone.

4 But do NOT give him the impression that it is a tit for tat..ie you take out the garbage and we'll have sex..he'll be disappointed in your continued lack of enthusiasm even though he has fullfilled his "part of the deal" so to speak. It may feel like a broken promise to him.

He wants you to enjoy him, and be in love with him..which is going to be a challenge for you because you probably are not having that chemical response anymore. What you probably do have is a great deal of affection and deep care and shared history and intimate knowledge of each other and shared future dreams and things that you just don't get from the scenarios that would get your motor running, so to speak.

If you remove the alternatives, and really truly invest in THIS relationship actively seek to create an atmosphere in which you feel more enthusiastic about sex you most likely will see improvement.

A very penetrating quote if you'll allow me that goes something like this..where your treasure is..there your heart will be also. If your heart is not in your marriage..then you have placed your treasure elsewhere..whether by intent or mishap. Regardless of what you know or wish intellectually..your heart will follow the object that you have declared treasure..if that isn't your H or your M..it's going to manifest. The truth will out.

I'd be willing to bet that you haven't discussed this with your H..but that HE is feeling the disconnect..the lack of attraction. I'd really advise that this one be brought into the light of day..perhaps in MC..as it is a touchy subject and could easily be taken personally.

I'm really hoping that this spurs some interest and dicussion..I see so very many women with such a similar problem, and yet it is only ever considered a "given" if you are a man. Go figure.

Your penetrating quote is very profound statement, I have said that my heart is not it and have been chastised that I need to follow my head because my heart screwed everything up.

I have the shared history and intimacy knowledge of him. I'm trying to get back the marriage for our kids. If I don't, I've been told that I'll lose them.

This thread hit home for me in alot of areas. Examples include being told how I should feel and what needs to be done and no desire for sex with husband.

Thank you for your thoughts for your thoughts and the quote.

I still consider it abuse. When a woman says "No" it should mean "No" regardless of what the man THINKS she means. Yes, nagging can be emotional abuse, but last time I checked, having a wife nag you to take out the garbage did not involve a physical violation. No one wants to be harped on all the time. It can and does just beat you down after awhile.

If she "gives in" after a little more badgering she's not setting her boundaries and sticking with them. She does bear some responsibility for that, but that doesn't make the badgering right. Insisting on DAILY SF becomes a form of emotional abuse when it's easier to just give in than to endure the whining. And, why on earth would anyone want SF that you had to beg for? You say the enjoyment is there after she gives in, but how do you know she's not faking it? I myself have given some oscar worthy performances just so as to not hurt my H's feelings.

As far as it being the only way you know how to get what you want, well, that's just a cop out. Even if your W doesn't give you guidance, there are plenty of self-help books, websites, videos, etc., that can provide you with information on becoming a better lover. (Obviously, the best way would be for a couple to explore these things together.)

I do not consider the occasional nagging for SF to be abuse, but when it's done DAILY then it becomes a control issue. He knows she doesn't want it but he comes bugging until he gets his way.

jcat, I've read some of your other posts and This topic obviously hits close to home for you.

On a practical note..

Having unwelcome advances pushed upon you will not endear those advances...a person may pass from being disinterested to being actively opposed or even revolted..basically having a stronger and stronger negative response as a result of the nagging and blatant disregard for personal boundaries.

I'm not saying that a person with an unsatisfactory SF element in their marriage ought just to bite the bullet and accept it..certainly not...I'm saying that this particular approach can and probably will cause SF that is for some reason an unattractive to one spouse into something that is even MORE unattractive..with even MORE resentment building up for both parties.

Marital issues exist and these quick fix short term solutions very often just add more unhealthy behaviors to an already unhealthy area of the marriage.

Well put, Noodle.

Hello Eagle 15too, It's me again.

I've thought about you since posting. And I remembered a TV show I watched, about couples in Britain. They had all gotten disconnected from each other, and sex became a chore for the women. They had previously had good sex lives, but different problems came up and rather than deal with the issues at the time, they let them slide.

The Harleys recommend 15 hours a week of one on one time with each other. Not watching the TV, but sitting or doing something together. That's a starter, a starting point.

The couples agreed to have cameras running all over the house recording their lives. The "experts" watched hours of the tapes and came to conclusions about why the couples weren't relating to each other.

One couple did all kinds of kinky and creative sex, but weren't really close or intimate. The other couple had drifted apart after their DD was born. (The DD often slept in the bed with them.)

The couple who had all the hot diverse sex were told not to have sex for awhile. They did some intimacy exercises NOT leading to intercourse. No matter how much they felt aroused, they kept to the limit imposed on them.

One exercise they finally were given was to sit facing each other, completely naked, cross legged on a mat, looking into each other's faces, while keeping the tips of their fingers just touching the tips of their partners. (I don't remember how long they had to do this).

The both couples had lost intimacy. Even though they had sex with climaxes, they weren't connected. The "kinky" couple never made love face to face. It was always with toys, props and costumes.

You say you are staying for the kids. Well, since you are there anyway, maybe you could do some searching on the internet for sexual couples therapy along the lines of what I posted. The good part of this is, that you don't have any desire. The methods these therapists FORBID any sex intercourse, etc.

Does that sound like something where you would feel safe?
Remember, I lost my marriage, that's where I'm coming from.

Bellevue,

Thank you for thinking of me, I need all of the thoughts I can get for now.

We were faithfully doing 15-18 hours a week together in the bedroom, lately it has not happened like before. We have been going for drives going to Walmart/Home Depot etc. We talk some but lately it has been more arguments that I'm not doing anything to make the marriage work. But, the funny thing is we are having regular sessions with Jennifer. I have scheduled appts for IC but, issues have come up with that. I'm interviewing with husband's counselor group today. I'm on this website, read books and things that husband prints for me. Enough of that stuff.

We had tried playing sexual games, but it was not fun. We were having wine/champagne and I was drunk by 1000 and needed to sleep. I don't have a desire for him or enjoy SF I do the things that help him climax so that it will be over when he is done. We only have SF when I can talk myself into it, lately it has been 1 a month as husband has informed me. He got mad the other day and told me that if he could find someone to bang his brains out he would and in front of me. I told him that I would helop him find that person. I know I was wrong for that, but he got a nooner 2 days prior. Jennifer told me to do what I could do in the SF arena, I informed her that I was and he was getting SF. She was surprised that I was giving in to SF, but I informed her that it is husband's #1 so I had too.

I used to enjoy SF anytime, now I don't even want it or think about it. I'm getting tired of hearing that I'm doing nothing. That maybe I'm putting off the inevidible (sp?), according to husband's thread he going to file today.

I'll look into some of your suggestions. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

MrsE,

I feel safe posting to you here. Wish I'd seen you posting before on this thread.

I wanted to highlight something I think is important to your personal recovery.

"But, the funny thing is we are having regular sessions with Jennifer. I have scheduled appts for IC but, issues have come up with that. I'm interviewing with husband's counselor group today. I'm on this website, read books and things that husband prints for me. Enough of that stuff."

Can you see how all these actions are your choices? You are choosing to do this.

Then here, you throw your power away: "but I informed her that it is husband's #1 so I had too."

There is no had to's in life. Truly. You choose. Every action and even instinctual reactions are choices. We consider our actions in advance, usually; our reactions come from making the decision, giving ourselves the permission to react on instinct or habit.

What your BH says is his...his thoughts, feelings and belief. Can you separate your truth from his? Can you see that you are two humans, separate and equal?

Like here:
"We talk some but lately it has been more arguments that I'm not doing anything to make the marriage work."

What is to argue about? He believes you are not doing anything to make the marriage work. You know you are. You're making those choices. Why argue to convince you are? His truth is his...yours is just as valid.

I am sharing this with you because of this:

"We only have SF when I can talk myself into it,"

I get pertinent if you give me long enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Knowing you choose, is this your truth? That you talk yourself into stuff that you don't want to do, kinda against your will...or do you choose to do this?

And here:
"I know I was wrong for that, but he got a nooner 2 days prior." When you admit making a destructive choice, own it. The reason you chose to say you would help him find that person was because you gave yourself permission to believe his truth, and fight back with a lie.

This is your relationship dance. One of you must stop. You can only control you. To hit back when hit...is that what you teach your children? Are you teaching them that if someone has an opinion of you, it is true? That you take DJs from others and define yourself, choose to believe them?

I care about you and what you are going through. You have your part, your power, your choices. The more you see them, the less you'll think divorcing as your only one.

There are a thousand in between.

When you excuse yourself for bad choices, you excuse him.

I don't want either of you to excuse. Own them. They're yours.

"I'm getting tired of hearing that I'm doing nothing."

You won't feel fatigued from hear him repeat his truth if you aren't allowing yourself to believe it, just a tiny part of it, even. Knowing his truth isn't true for you, and buying into it, creates conflict within yourself which consumes a lot of energy--can make you physically and emotionally tired. Free yourself. His opinion is his. Let go and let him own that. Not your truth.

Be well, MrsE. You're not alone.

LA

LA,

I am VERY emotional/physically tired! Jennifer keeps telling me to hang in there, but it's getting hard to do. I do not feel like I have power at all, but I'll work on me.

CHTK,

I actually wrote the last post before reading "Lovebusters" book. I had read most of the info on this site and the first few chapters of "His Needs, Her Needs." Well, I went out and bouth the LB book and I guess I have to apologize. If we go by the definition of abuse in the book, the constant groping is abuse. Of course, I hold that nagging is too, and to be honest since thegroping is not physically hurtful (as in the world definition of abuse), I don't think the distinction between physical and emotional can be made. In fact, I'm pretty sure both would be classified as emotional.

And you're right. This hits REAL close to home. It has for many, many years. I wish someone had showed me the MN material about 10 years ago. I can only imagine how the years might have been different. We have both been struggling with a feeling of not being connected. I have begged and pleaded in the past to tell me what to do to help. Only to be told that she didn't know. I could always tell the love was fading away, I just didn't know why or how to stop it. And of course, the more love faded, the worse things got both emotionally and in the area of SF. I think what gets me the most is that wife still blames me for much of it when in truth, she was the major cuprit. I'm not trying to deflect my blame in my actions and I know I've committed tons and tons of LB's over the years, but moswt of them, especially in the early years were out of ignorance. Later, as I sensed things going downhill, I would do different things to try and "FIX" us, but never could. I recognize now that I often slipped into withdrawal because I felt like giving up. Funny thing is, those were the times that she would try a little. She recognized it and would try to come on to me. I guess it was out of duty or whatever. Unfortunately, my withdrawl is also usually accompanied by much silence and what she terms as pouting. When asked what was wromg, I would tell her and she would always get defensive. On some rare moments she would confess to feeling like roommates. I asked and begged her to be truthful with me about how to fix thingsand how I could change, but she never could. I don't think most of it was intentional on her part either and I believe her when she said she didn't know. I guess what bothers me is that she has never really owned up to any part of allowing us to go so far downhill.

I guess I am also like a lot of other males also in that I didn't (and still don't) think things were that bad. We basically have a good life. A little boring maybe, but comfortable. It really just needs some tweeks in how we react and relate to each other. It majory needs effort on both our parts.

Unfortunately right now, it is still me doing most of the trying. I think most of her trying is still in the trying to get him out of her system. I've expressed to her that I need to see more. I said that I knew she was trying, but I still feel like I'm struggling in this all by myself becasue there is very little visual evidence. I admitted that at times I can get week too. I'm not real good at this Plan A stuff. I can do it for a while, then the it all seems to get the best of me. I am getting better att not doing the angry outburst thing, but that usually results in me bottling up a lot of frustration and resentment. No matter how I try to let it out, it tends to be a LB since wife now sees many things I do as "pushing" her. So if I do tell her, it comes across as an LB and if I don't tell her how I feel, then its the LB of dishonesty.
For instance, tonight she is out of town on field trip with son. We talked for a while and had a great conversation. before we said goodbye, I asked her to text me a pic of her getting dressed for bed. She knows I love to get pictures of her (clothed or unclothed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) She gets mad at me for asking! I don't get it. I am willing to do ANYTHING for her. I've helped her more lately than ever. Even with things that aren't real fun for me. Even with things have taken time away from us. Even while sick. And she gets mad because I ask her to take 10 seconds to snap and send me a picture? What is so hard about that?????????

Also, she askes me if I got her card she left me on the night stand. I said yes and I appreciate it, but inside I'm thinking thanks fornedxxt to nothing. It was a very generic store-bought "I miss you" card that could have been left for anybody. The only personal writing in it was her signature. At least she thought enough to leave one, but I guess I just want so much more. In case you can't tell, I'm still struggling with this disrespectful judgement thing.

Forgive me, I could go on with more examples than this post has room for, but you get the picture. Some of her refusals are about everyday things, others are in the area of SF. But alas, I will continues with putty on the happy face of Plan A and working on me (have read many books and lost 20 lbs!). In the meantime, I will try to hold on to what love of mine remains for her. To be honest, her lovebank balance with me is sinking lower and lower, more so than before her EA.

((((jcat))))

I agree that constant nagging and complaining is abusive. I've seen it tear down Mountain Men. It just rips at your self-esteem after awhile and you begin to believe you can't do anything right. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from a parent, spouse, or boss. It just wears you down after awhile.

Hang in there jcat!

Thanks CHTK!

I am slowly "getting it" and will definitely hang in there. Last night was a bad night and I needed to get some thoughts down. I guess venting on here is much better than venting to her about her.

Keep up the encouraging words. Too many on here like to use the "Dr Phil" get real approach and are quick to give harsh judgements. I don't think they realize that many of us act one way at home with spouse but come here to get hopes, fears, annoyances, grief, etc. off their chest. What I say on here is usually at the negative end of the spectrum. If I'm on the positve end of the emotional continuim, I don't always need to come here.

Again, thank you....

For MrsEagle:

"I am VERY emotional/physically tired! Jennifer keeps telling me to hang in there, but it's getting hard to do. I do not feel like I have power at all, but I'll work on me."

I believe when we feel fatigued, we feel it all through us...we are tied together emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually into every molecule. When there is resistance, friction, internal conflict, it fatigues us as a signal to get attention for ourselves.

What are you fighting in yourself? Is it the mental reasoning you are doing that leads to emotional turmoil? Could it be you betraying yourself again and again? What if your beliefs are in conflict, giving you emotions in conflict?

Could you give yourself permission to just be, not do?

LA

I was fighting not to lose myself. Being told who I should be, be friends with, being an individual as well as a couple.

I give, I'll be the person he needs.

Eagle,

I'm going to need a little more info before I can respond.

Who should you be, who are you? What is in disalignment?

Is there something objectionable about your friends?

Is being an individual in contrast with being a couple?

Personally I do not see these things as oil and water situations..connect the dots for me.

Noodle

Noodle

A person who opinions matter, things I would like to do aren't stupid and we're not going to do. I missed opportunities of a life time because he disapproved and I missed out on. I has always supported in 110% in whatever he wanted to do.

I have had friends both male and female that he has disapproved of. I have introduced him to male/female friends didn't hide people. Husband thoughts folks were sluts/dogs/not friends of his, so doesn't like them. I have lost quite a friends because of this. I don't have any contact with old friends, I just talk to my best friend (last 2 yrs)every so often.

Husband says that I'm a couple, not a individual. I think I should have to lose myself in order to be a couple.

Eagle2, you make broad, sweeping statements about lost opportunities. Get specific. Tell us what you missed out on because your husband wouldn't support you. Don't leave out any details.

Also, give us some insight on these friends your husband didn't like. Why did he think they were sluts or dogs?

Yep,

Sweeping generalizations a bit of a problem for me..and I strongly suspect for you as well.

I'm a picker by nature..I will separate and categorize and articulate each issue as well as I can..then do it all over again so that I have a really *precise* idea about what is troubling me in any given situation..this is my nature..it is difficult for me to answer offer any counsel to you when it seems even YOU don't have a clear grasp of what is bugging you.

You say you have missed opportunities of a lifetime..but what specifically do you have in mind?

What makes you certain that they have been missed irretrievably?

Why do you lay the blame for this at your Hs feet? Isn't it your decision what you will do and where you will go?

It does sound like the communication style leans toward disrespect and judgement..but I hear this coming from both ends.

I can understand why you might be feeling resentfull..but I'm not going to feel around in the dark..I think this situation calls for a sniper..not a shotgun approach.

Re: his dislike of your friends..I'd like a bit more clarification..How does he define "slut" or "dog". Are you saying that even if you brought home the president of miss manners charm school [who teaches childrens sunday school in her spare time] he would still object with "slut" and "dog" as his qualifyer or is there something specific that these people have in common that he genuinely objects to but is failing to articulate?

I agree that a person who chooses to be part of a *couple* will need to make choices differently than a person who remains independent..but I suspect that he and I may disagree with regard to what those differences might look like.

If you'd really like to have a deeper look at this [and I'm game} let's move it to a different thread so as not to get OT and threadjack.

Noodle

Longhorn/Noodle

Thank you for your input, but I think I will let this thread go since my husband doesn't agree/appreciate it.

Noodle as far as my decision of where I'll go/do, it isn't I have to ask permission/opinion to go/do anything. I reviewed his boundaries again and I'm reminded that my feelings don't count/matter. I must stay wihtin the realm of the his boundaries.

Thanks again to all and have a good day.

No you are letting this thread go because you do not want to get specific. What do you want to do ? What were the oppurtunities you mised out on. Where they OM or what? Please answer if you want help we can help. You come across as whinney and not real sure what you want.

Hey eagle t00000. Sorry never posted to you before. I just finished reading your thread. And I see a LOT of problems. And a LOT of self-justifications and no VALID reasons for your attitude. So what if you BETRAYED husband doens't like your thread? What has THAT got to do with you refusing to give details as to why you think it is okay for YOU to justify YOUR actions be BLAMING him?

That is like saying EVERYBODY hates me. Hello! Unless you are Sadam or soemthing that is such a sweeping generalization it holds no water. It is an excuse to change NOTHING. It does NOT accept resposnbiity for the DAMAGE and the BETRAYAL and the LIES you have INFLICTED on YOUR fmaily. THe ones YOU VOWED to protect and to be with and put FIRST.
I see experienced posters asking you for SPECIFICS as to your H RUINED your life and YOUR opportunites. I SEE that you have nothing to give as an example. HE is not respsonbile for YOUR POOR choices. All I SEE is EXCUSES for YOU not to DO anything positive.

ARE YOU HONEST? DO you STILL keep secrets. Are you an open book? Have you maintained NC? HAve you gone to your BS when you have been tempted? ANY of that?

Focussing on WHY you don't want to have sex is redirecting the focus on REPARING the damge that has been FORCED on your fmaily by your actions. SO instead of worrying about SF. How about WORKING on your M and your fmaily? This is NOT all aobut you. YOur fmaily is the VICTIM of this. And yes even yourself.

IMHO, I think that you BOTH could use COMMUNICATION skills. In additoin to some SERIOUS counsleling. I only see you trying to NOT change the things that contributed to this mess.

ANd when you say immature, childish thngs like "i hav eto let got of this thread becasue H doens't care about your feeling" Are you kidding me? How is THAT working on YOURSELF OR on your M OR on anything excetp giving yourself reason to NOT change YOUR behaviour?

I am NOT saying that your H doens't have room for improvement WE ALL DO. But come on who are you trying ot convince. Playing that POOR me WOE is me card, is just plain well it is not productive. ACTING Like a VICITM to get your way is so a 4 year old's approach. Sheesh!

Oh and until you can be honest with a IC do not bother to go. You must be honest and be specific with them as well. Sorry to be so frank with you but I felt you needed this.

I just thought of soemthing that I have not seen in your post.
What EXACTLY have you done to contribute to the helath of your family?
What exactly have you done to REPAIR the damge you have done?
Are you transparent?
Are you HONEST ALWAYS?
WHAT EXACTLY have you done to move forward? Like plan a date, plana romantic dinner? ANYTHING?

DO you have a PLAN to get a better M. DO you have a PLAN at all?

WHat is YOUR goal? Is it to have a far better M or to just get over the disgrace that you caused your self by YOUR actions?

Big difference ins't there? Between ACTIVELY working TOWARDS a fantastic M and trying to do damge control.
Are you POJAing EVERYTHING? And if you have problems with that, why are you not ACTIVELY looking fo ran MB weeeknd or soemthing to HELP you BOTH talk together better?

So as MS jacksons song says, what have YOU done for your M lately?

This whole affair is MY FAULT!!!! I have apologized to husband and kids.


Some specifics on opportunities; chance to fly in a Blackhawk helicopter(whole hospital), gospel concert at local church,sky dive(thrill after flying F-15), chance to make next rank in Air Force. I have always supported his dreams/goals 110% and would like the same. He has apologized for the issues and I have put in the past. The main issue is that I feel controlled and not an equal, so when husband asks for specifics I mention these.

I feel that I have no secrets left, but husband may disagree with this. I have maintained strict NC since mid March.

We are in counseling with Jennifer on a regular basis and it has helped some. I mentioned to her about the contact and also told her that I not stopped any of things asked of me. For example reading books, on MB website, constant notification of where abouts. She told me that it was good that I had continued working on the marriage and gave me the extraordinary measures which are being adhered to.

I am honest with myself and what makes me unhappy and have discussed with husband. He tells me that I use honesty as a love buster, I don't believe I am. As far as this thread; he wants me to be on here and ask questions, but will bring it up later and I feel like I'm being scolded.

We spend time together, whether we're cooking, running errands (without kids), took a walk (plan to do more),show affection to him, intamacy, holding hands,riding motorcycle and dinner/movie out with kids. We have dicussed dates, but haven't yet. I have promised to get a physical to check out my hormone level to see if that is a problem at husband's request. I set up a physical love bank for us both, we deposit coins into our individual banks when appropriate. I tell husband thank you for things, deeds that he does for me usually followed by a kiss.

The plan is work on marriage for out kids, I don't want to lose my kids. I hope that the relationship will be better than before, never felt like a full partner. I would give in to what he wanted. I would love to be myself as a couple and individual. Where my thoughts/dreams/ideas/goals matter all of the time not just when husband agrees with them.

We are working on POJA's with Jennifer now and husband has one for not having a male friends. We will only have couple friends. I ahve asked for a list of things to POJA.
on.

I would like to have a face to face counselor again, we used husband's IC as a marriage counselor. After an incident during a session I don't feel comfortable with him anymore. I'm currently trying to get in with an IC in the same association.

I apologize to you if you thought that I had/have an attitude. Thank you for your opinions have a good day.

Thank you Eagle for the clarifications.

Now I have something that I can offer comment on.

I didn't know that you were in recovery for an A..

..and I don't care. Not with regard to these issues anyhow.

So..if the appropriate boundaries have been established and are maintained..then the A probably has little or nothing to do with your current marital problems.

I refer to attitudes and dynamics here.

So..let me approach a few issues in my general stream of consciousness sort of way...and hopefully..as a whole it will make some sort of sense.

You have said that you have given up opportunities that you now regret having given up..feel controlled..don't feel a respected individual..etc..

Quite a few things along this line..and I can almost taste the resentment rolling off of you in waves.

Trouble is..the anger is misplaced..to an extent.

Since you are here..I'll deal with you..and let's try to further separate where your choices merge with your Hs wishes.

I see a vast gaping lack of POJA.

Probably an overlooked area of your marriage..particularly with respect to A recovery...but so very important..and such a big part of FEELING respected..FEELING an individual.

The part of these choices that you own..was that you did not stand your ground. You caved in the face of his disapproval instead of holding the line and insisting on finding a solution that you could BOTH be happy with. It is doable if THAT IS THE GOAL. If one person is still trying to win or unwilling to bend..it won't work..that would be a non-negotiable area..and should be admitted as such. A boundary.

Let me give an example. I require fidelity in my M. Regardless of Hs fellings or wishes..it is not negotiable. Therefore it is a boundary.

Another example...

Perhaps we find ourselves with an excess of cash..and have to decide what to do with it..we disagree on how to do that..that can be negotiated..not a boundary.

Perhaps he DOES have some controlling tendancies..they will not become readily apparent until you learn to establish healthy boundaries re your own wishes etc.

Do not agree to something you actually disagree with. No matter what. Even if he is mad. It is dishonest..it will build resentment. Very destructive.

On the other hand..we do not do well to disappear into independant behavior either.

That is the attitude that says.."I'll do what I like..whether you like it or not"

This is equally destructive..and POJA is neither.

POJA means..we BOTH committ to chewing on this issue until we find a solution that we BOTH are ENTHUSIASTIC about. [not merely accepting of]

What I see you doing is swinging back and forth between the two.

Going from.."Fine, I'll do what you want and disappear to myself [while gritting my teeth and hating you every minute of it wishing there was some way out of this marriage with losses I could accept]

TO..

"I'm going to be my OWN person and make ME happy whether you like it or not..." probably played a role in your A..I'm just sayin'.

I think your counselor is dead on to be working on POJAs with you.

I notice though..that you really are still just going along with some things that you don't seem to agree with...for example not having opposite sex friends.

What ARE your thoughts re male friends? You are probably familiar with Harleys thoughts on the issue..and I agree with him completely..because as a person who DOES naturally gravitate toward male companionship..who DOES enjoy the added zing of attraction..that even an "innocent" or platonic friendship..even if it never for one moment stepped over the line..is still TOO much of a risk and not WISE to allow as a factor.

Why should my H have to wait and wonder and just hope that whatever friend I currently have and I just don't go there?

That is an unfair position for me to put my H in..and coming from an A..it is doubly so for you...and..and yet..I sense resentment there. Reluctance to let go of that aspect of life. That once again you are agreeing to something you don't really agree with. Why?

Drat, out of time..but I'll check in later..