But does he stop groping you when you ask him to or does he badger you until you give in? That's the part that alarmed me. He won't stop even when she asks him to.

If groping your wife,ven after she tells you tells you to stop, os abuse. Then a wife's nagging has got to be abuse as well. If she is like my wife, she has probably put out mixed signals. A little more and she'll give in (read on before you object). The thing about it is that once hse gives in and gets over the resentment, the enjoyment is there. And I will also go on to say that if the enjoyment is not there once we get started, I usually quit. I used to be okay with pity sex. Not any more.

If groping and trying to get your wife in the mood the only way you know how (because they won't tell us much else) is abuse in your book, you need to seriously rethink and adjust the male-bashing attitutde of thinking the worst. It may not be right, but it is NOT abuse. When your driving blind, you keep doing what you know to do because that's all you know. If she wants the groping to stop, show him what to do instead that would help him get the desired result. Our desired result is SF, but she hit the nail on the head earlier when she talked about wanting SF more when feeling disconnected. We want connection the same as you do. We're just kind of ignorant as to how to go about it.

I'm really glad that you posted, because I really think that this issue is underacknowledged, tremendously damaging to marriages, and also tremendously frustrating for BOTH people in the marriage.

There are several especially significant points that I can relate to.


It isn't [by your description] that you have no desire for sex, it is that you have no desire for sex with him. You are still attracted to other men, still having sexual drives and fantasies.

I would be willing to bet that your dating history prior to marriage was comprised of short term romances..fairly superficial..nothing very intimate.

Mine was, that is my nature..however, I am also a very committed woman, once I have decided to commit.

Do I think that ENs play a role here..yes but secondarily. I think that being frustrated or irritated can agitate and cause you to withdraw even further [because withdrawl is sort of your MO right?] I know for a fact that being groped while I am already withdrawn [or even if i'm not] irritates me..which is the exact opposite reaction that my and probably your H is hoping to elicit.

I know for sure that I don't want anyone to tell me I should feel differently about things than I do. If it annoys me..it annoys me.

Personally, I can have an orgasm any time I want. It isn't something that H does for me during sex..I'm not really sure if any man ever does [sorry guys]..generally it is all about where I am at, whether I am engaged, whether I am paying attention to what feels good and am.. for lack of better description.."into it".

I enjoy sex, I enjoy it with my H..I do think he is attractive in the sense that I like the way that he looks and I enjoy spending time with him as much as I ever have, but the fact remains that I don't get the almighty dopamine dump any longer.

What I *do* get is intimacy, something every other relationship [and I use the word generously] that I was in lacked. An endless series of short lived flings is not something I am willing..or even desiring to trade what I have to obtain...so what to do?

Well..I haven't arrived at the fount of all knowledge..but I can tell you what has been helpfull to me.

1..Acceptance that this is an aspect of my personality..not some shamefull or earth shattering flaw. Everyone has things like this. It may be impulsive behavior..low frustration threshold..whathaveyou..but most people just *do* have not terribly socially acceptable..and not conducive to healthy relationships..aspects to their nature. So, it is what it is. It isn't him, not really and he can't fix it.

2..Don't look. Sounds corny but it's really important. If you WANT to be married, if you WANT to enjoy that fruit..then you just ARE going to have to invest there and curb your impulses. So don't fantasize. Every fantasy takes you a step farther away from what you SAY that you want. The more that you engage in a psuedo affair with some figment of your imagination the more withdrawn you will be from your H. In fact, I really think that a lot of WS [wandering spouse] behavior will manifest..even in the absense of an OP.

3 Do address the issues of resentment and irritating behaviors. Find ways that you can really enjoy your time with him..not be turned off and wishing he'd leave you alone.

4 But do NOT give him the impression that it is a tit for tat..ie you take out the garbage and we'll have sex..he'll be disappointed in your continued lack of enthusiasm even though he has fullfilled his "part of the deal" so to speak. It may feel like a broken promise to him.

He wants you to enjoy him, and be in love with him..which is going to be a challenge for you because you probably are not having that chemical response anymore. What you probably do have is a great deal of affection and deep care and shared history and intimate knowledge of each other and shared future dreams and things that you just don't get from the scenarios that would get your motor running, so to speak.

If you remove the alternatives, and really truly invest in THIS relationship actively seek to create an atmosphere in which you feel more enthusiastic about sex you most likely will see improvement.

A very penetrating quote if you'll allow me that goes something like this..where your treasure is..there your heart will be also. If your heart is not in your marriage..then you have placed your treasure elsewhere..whether by intent or mishap. Regardless of what you know or wish intellectually..your heart will follow the object that you have declared treasure..if that isn't your H or your M..it's going to manifest. The truth will out.

I'd be willing to bet that you haven't discussed this with your H..but that HE is feeling the disconnect..the lack of attraction. I'd really advise that this one be brought into the light of day..perhaps in MC..as it is a touchy subject and could easily be taken personally.

I'm really hoping that this spurs some interest and dicussion..I see so very many women with such a similar problem, and yet it is only ever considered a "given" if you are a man. Go figure.

Your penetrating quote is very profound statement, I have said that my heart is not it and have been chastised that I need to follow my head because my heart screwed everything up.

I have the shared history and intimacy knowledge of him. I'm trying to get back the marriage for our kids. If I don't, I've been told that I'll lose them.

This thread hit home for me in alot of areas. Examples include being told how I should feel and what needs to be done and no desire for sex with husband.

Thank you for your thoughts for your thoughts and the quote.

I still consider it abuse. When a woman says "No" it should mean "No" regardless of what the man THINKS she means. Yes, nagging can be emotional abuse, but last time I checked, having a wife nag you to take out the garbage did not involve a physical violation. No one wants to be harped on all the time. It can and does just beat you down after awhile.

If she "gives in" after a little more badgering she's not setting her boundaries and sticking with them. She does bear some responsibility for that, but that doesn't make the badgering right. Insisting on DAILY SF becomes a form of emotional abuse when it's easier to just give in than to endure the whining. And, why on earth would anyone want SF that you had to beg for? You say the enjoyment is there after she gives in, but how do you know she's not faking it? I myself have given some oscar worthy performances just so as to not hurt my H's feelings.

As far as it being the only way you know how to get what you want, well, that's just a cop out. Even if your W doesn't give you guidance, there are plenty of self-help books, websites, videos, etc., that can provide you with information on becoming a better lover. (Obviously, the best way would be for a couple to explore these things together.)

I do not consider the occasional nagging for SF to be abuse, but when it's done DAILY then it becomes a control issue. He knows she doesn't want it but he comes bugging until he gets his way.

jcat, I've read some of your other posts and This topic obviously hits close to home for you.

On a practical note..

Having unwelcome advances pushed upon you will not endear those advances...a person may pass from being disinterested to being actively opposed or even revolted..basically having a stronger and stronger negative response as a result of the nagging and blatant disregard for personal boundaries.

I'm not saying that a person with an unsatisfactory SF element in their marriage ought just to bite the bullet and accept it..certainly not...I'm saying that this particular approach can and probably will cause SF that is for some reason an unattractive to one spouse into something that is even MORE unattractive..with even MORE resentment building up for both parties.

Marital issues exist and these quick fix short term solutions very often just add more unhealthy behaviors to an already unhealthy area of the marriage.

Well put, Noodle.

Hello Eagle 15too, It's me again.

I've thought about you since posting. And I remembered a TV show I watched, about couples in Britain. They had all gotten disconnected from each other, and sex became a chore for the women. They had previously had good sex lives, but different problems came up and rather than deal with the issues at the time, they let them slide.

The Harleys recommend 15 hours a week of one on one time with each other. Not watching the TV, but sitting or doing something together. That's a starter, a starting point.

The couples agreed to have cameras running all over the house recording their lives. The "experts" watched hours of the tapes and came to conclusions about why the couples weren't relating to each other.

One couple did all kinds of kinky and creative sex, but weren't really close or intimate. The other couple had drifted apart after their DD was born. (The DD often slept in the bed with them.)

The couple who had all the hot diverse sex were told not to have sex for awhile. They did some intimacy exercises NOT leading to intercourse. No matter how much they felt aroused, they kept to the limit imposed on them.

One exercise they finally were given was to sit facing each other, completely naked, cross legged on a mat, looking into each other's faces, while keeping the tips of their fingers just touching the tips of their partners. (I don't remember how long they had to do this).

The both couples had lost intimacy. Even though they had sex with climaxes, they weren't connected. The "kinky" couple never made love face to face. It was always with toys, props and costumes.

You say you are staying for the kids. Well, since you are there anyway, maybe you could do some searching on the internet for sexual couples therapy along the lines of what I posted. The good part of this is, that you don't have any desire. The methods these therapists FORBID any sex intercourse, etc.

Does that sound like something where you would feel safe?
Remember, I lost my marriage, that's where I'm coming from.

Bellevue,

Thank you for thinking of me, I need all of the thoughts I can get for now.

We were faithfully doing 15-18 hours a week together in the bedroom, lately it has not happened like before. We have been going for drives going to Walmart/Home Depot etc. We talk some but lately it has been more arguments that I'm not doing anything to make the marriage work. But, the funny thing is we are having regular sessions with Jennifer. I have scheduled appts for IC but, issues have come up with that. I'm interviewing with husband's counselor group today. I'm on this website, read books and things that husband prints for me. Enough of that stuff.

We had tried playing sexual games, but it was not fun. We were having wine/champagne and I was drunk by 1000 and needed to sleep. I don't have a desire for him or enjoy SF I do the things that help him climax so that it will be over when he is done. We only have SF when I can talk myself into it, lately it has been 1 a month as husband has informed me. He got mad the other day and told me that if he could find someone to bang his brains out he would and in front of me. I told him that I would helop him find that person. I know I was wrong for that, but he got a nooner 2 days prior. Jennifer told me to do what I could do in the SF arena, I informed her that I was and he was getting SF. She was surprised that I was giving in to SF, but I informed her that it is husband's #1 so I had too.

I used to enjoy SF anytime, now I don't even want it or think about it. I'm getting tired of hearing that I'm doing nothing. That maybe I'm putting off the inevidible (sp?), according to husband's thread he going to file today.

I'll look into some of your suggestions. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

MrsE,

I feel safe posting to you here. Wish I'd seen you posting before on this thread.

I wanted to highlight something I think is important to your personal recovery.

"But, the funny thing is we are having regular sessions with Jennifer. I have scheduled appts for IC but, issues have come up with that. I'm interviewing with husband's counselor group today. I'm on this website, read books and things that husband prints for me. Enough of that stuff."

Can you see how all these actions are your choices? You are choosing to do this.

Then here, you throw your power away: "but I informed her that it is husband's #1 so I had too."

There is no had to's in life. Truly. You choose. Every action and even instinctual reactions are choices. We consider our actions in advance, usually; our reactions come from making the decision, giving ourselves the permission to react on instinct or habit.

What your BH says is his...his thoughts, feelings and belief. Can you separate your truth from his? Can you see that you are two humans, separate and equal?

Like here:
"We talk some but lately it has been more arguments that I'm not doing anything to make the marriage work."

What is to argue about? He believes you are not doing anything to make the marriage work. You know you are. You're making those choices. Why argue to convince you are? His truth is his...yours is just as valid.

I am sharing this with you because of this:

"We only have SF when I can talk myself into it,"

I get pertinent if you give me long enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Knowing you choose, is this your truth? That you talk yourself into stuff that you don't want to do, kinda against your will...or do you choose to do this?

And here:
"I know I was wrong for that, but he got a nooner 2 days prior." When you admit making a destructive choice, own it. The reason you chose to say you would help him find that person was because you gave yourself permission to believe his truth, and fight back with a lie.

This is your relationship dance. One of you must stop. You can only control you. To hit back when hit...is that what you teach your children? Are you teaching them that if someone has an opinion of you, it is true? That you take DJs from others and define yourself, choose to believe them?

I care about you and what you are going through. You have your part, your power, your choices. The more you see them, the less you'll think divorcing as your only one.

There are a thousand in between.

When you excuse yourself for bad choices, you excuse him.

I don't want either of you to excuse. Own them. They're yours.

"I'm getting tired of hearing that I'm doing nothing."

You won't feel fatigued from hear him repeat his truth if you aren't allowing yourself to believe it, just a tiny part of it, even. Knowing his truth isn't true for you, and buying into it, creates conflict within yourself which consumes a lot of energy--can make you physically and emotionally tired. Free yourself. His opinion is his. Let go and let him own that. Not your truth.

Be well, MrsE. You're not alone.

LA

LA,

I am VERY emotional/physically tired! Jennifer keeps telling me to hang in there, but it's getting hard to do. I do not feel like I have power at all, but I'll work on me.

CHTK,

I actually wrote the last post before reading "Lovebusters" book. I had read most of the info on this site and the first few chapters of "His Needs, Her Needs." Well, I went out and bouth the LB book and I guess I have to apologize. If we go by the definition of abuse in the book, the constant groping is abuse. Of course, I hold that nagging is too, and to be honest since thegroping is not physically hurtful (as in the world definition of abuse), I don't think the distinction between physical and emotional can be made. In fact, I'm pretty sure both would be classified as emotional.

And you're right. This hits REAL close to home. It has for many, many years. I wish someone had showed me the MN material about 10 years ago. I can only imagine how the years might have been different. We have both been struggling with a feeling of not being connected. I have begged and pleaded in the past to tell me what to do to help. Only to be told that she didn't know. I could always tell the love was fading away, I just didn't know why or how to stop it. And of course, the more love faded, the worse things got both emotionally and in the area of SF. I think what gets me the most is that wife still blames me for much of it when in truth, she was the major cuprit. I'm not trying to deflect my blame in my actions and I know I've committed tons and tons of LB's over the years, but moswt of them, especially in the early years were out of ignorance. Later, as I sensed things going downhill, I would do different things to try and "FIX" us, but never could. I recognize now that I often slipped into withdrawal because I felt like giving up. Funny thing is, those were the times that she would try a little. She recognized it and would try to come on to me. I guess it was out of duty or whatever. Unfortunately, my withdrawl is also usually accompanied by much silence and what she terms as pouting. When asked what was wromg, I would tell her and she would always get defensive. On some rare moments she would confess to feeling like roommates. I asked and begged her to be truthful with me about how to fix thingsand how I could change, but she never could. I don't think most of it was intentional on her part either and I believe her when she said she didn't know. I guess what bothers me is that she has never really owned up to any part of allowing us to go so far downhill.

I guess I am also like a lot of other males also in that I didn't (and still don't) think things were that bad. We basically have a good life. A little boring maybe, but comfortable. It really just needs some tweeks in how we react and relate to each other. It majory needs effort on both our parts.

Unfortunately right now, it is still me doing most of the trying. I think most of her trying is still in the trying to get him out of her system. I've expressed to her that I need to see more. I said that I knew she was trying, but I still feel like I'm struggling in this all by myself becasue there is very little visual evidence. I admitted that at times I can get week too. I'm not real good at this Plan A stuff. I can do it for a while, then the it all seems to get the best of me. I am getting better att not doing the angry outburst thing, but that usually results in me bottling up a lot of frustration and resentment. No matter how I try to let it out, it tends to be a LB since wife now sees many things I do as "pushing" her. So if I do tell her, it comes across as an LB and if I don't tell her how I feel, then its the LB of dishonesty.
For instance, tonight she is out of town on field trip with son. We talked for a while and had a great conversation. before we said goodbye, I asked her to text me a pic of her getting dressed for bed. She knows I love to get pictures of her (clothed or unclothed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) She gets mad at me for asking! I don't get it. I am willing to do ANYTHING for her. I've helped her more lately than ever. Even with things that aren't real fun for me. Even with things have taken time away from us. Even while sick. And she gets mad because I ask her to take 10 seconds to snap and send me a picture? What is so hard about that?????????

Also, she askes me if I got her card she left me on the night stand. I said yes and I appreciate it, but inside I'm thinking thanks fornedxxt to nothing. It was a very generic store-bought "I miss you" card that could have been left for anybody. The only personal writing in it was her signature. At least she thought enough to leave one, but I guess I just want so much more. In case you can't tell, I'm still struggling with this disrespectful judgement thing.

Forgive me, I could go on with more examples than this post has room for, but you get the picture. Some of her refusals are about everyday things, others are in the area of SF. But alas, I will continues with putty on the happy face of Plan A and working on me (have read many books and lost 20 lbs!). In the meantime, I will try to hold on to what love of mine remains for her. To be honest, her lovebank balance with me is sinking lower and lower, more so than before her EA.

((((jcat))))

I agree that constant nagging and complaining is abusive. I've seen it tear down Mountain Men. It just rips at your self-esteem after awhile and you begin to believe you can't do anything right. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from a parent, spouse, or boss. It just wears you down after awhile.

Hang in there jcat!

Thanks CHTK!

I am slowly "getting it" and will definitely hang in there. Last night was a bad night and I needed to get some thoughts down. I guess venting on here is much better than venting to her about her.

Keep up the encouraging words. Too many on here like to use the "Dr Phil" get real approach and are quick to give harsh judgements. I don't think they realize that many of us act one way at home with spouse but come here to get hopes, fears, annoyances, grief, etc. off their chest. What I say on here is usually at the negative end of the spectrum. If I'm on the positve end of the emotional continuim, I don't always need to come here.

Again, thank you....

For MrsEagle:

"I am VERY emotional/physically tired! Jennifer keeps telling me to hang in there, but it's getting hard to do. I do not feel like I have power at all, but I'll work on me."

I believe when we feel fatigued, we feel it all through us...we are tied together emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually into every molecule. When there is resistance, friction, internal conflict, it fatigues us as a signal to get attention for ourselves.

What are you fighting in yourself? Is it the mental reasoning you are doing that leads to emotional turmoil? Could it be you betraying yourself again and again? What if your beliefs are in conflict, giving you emotions in conflict?

Could you give yourself permission to just be, not do?

LA

I was fighting not to lose myself. Being told who I should be, be friends with, being an individual as well as a couple.

I give, I'll be the person he needs.

Eagle,

I'm going to need a little more info before I can respond.

Who should you be, who are you? What is in disalignment?

Is there something objectionable about your friends?

Is being an individual in contrast with being a couple?

Personally I do not see these things as oil and water situations..connect the dots for me.

Noodle

Noodle

A person who opinions matter, things I would like to do aren't stupid and we're not going to do. I missed opportunities of a life time because he disapproved and I missed out on. I has always supported in 110% in whatever he wanted to do.

I have had friends both male and female that he has disapproved of. I have introduced him to male/female friends didn't hide people. Husband thoughts folks were sluts/dogs/not friends of his, so doesn't like them. I have lost quite a friends because of this. I don't have any contact with old friends, I just talk to my best friend (last 2 yrs)every so often.

Husband says that I'm a couple, not a individual. I think I should have to lose myself in order to be a couple.

Eagle2, you make broad, sweeping statements about lost opportunities. Get specific. Tell us what you missed out on because your husband wouldn't support you. Don't leave out any details.

Also, give us some insight on these friends your husband didn't like. Why did he think they were sluts or dogs?

Yep,

Sweeping generalizations a bit of a problem for me..and I strongly suspect for you as well.

I'm a picker by nature..I will separate and categorize and articulate each issue as well as I can..then do it all over again so that I have a really *precise* idea about what is troubling me in any given situation..this is my nature..it is difficult for me to answer offer any counsel to you when it seems even YOU don't have a clear grasp of what is bugging you.

You say you have missed opportunities of a lifetime..but what specifically do you have in mind?

What makes you certain that they have been missed irretrievably?

Why do you lay the blame for this at your Hs feet? Isn't it your decision what you will do and where you will go?

It does sound like the communication style leans toward disrespect and judgement..but I hear this coming from both ends.

I can understand why you might be feeling resentfull..but I'm not going to feel around in the dark..I think this situation calls for a sniper..not a shotgun approach.

Re: his dislike of your friends..I'd like a bit more clarification..How does he define "slut" or "dog". Are you saying that even if you brought home the president of miss manners charm school [who teaches childrens sunday school in her spare time] he would still object with "slut" and "dog" as his qualifyer or is there something specific that these people have in common that he genuinely objects to but is failing to articulate?

I agree that a person who chooses to be part of a *couple* will need to make choices differently than a person who remains independent..but I suspect that he and I may disagree with regard to what those differences might look like.

If you'd really like to have a deeper look at this [and I'm game} let's move it to a different thread so as not to get OT and threadjack.

Noodle