This is how it was for us. We just WORKED IT..ON FAITH..in the early days of RECOVERY...

It was like my H was coming out of a concentration camp or from outer space or something. He was trying to reorient himself to the real world. Very hard times..

He will need your help....

Kim,

When he is ready to come home, THE LETTER WILL BE NO BIG DEAL TO HIM.

I have not been following closely. Sorry. Are you sure that he has NC with the OW? How can you be sure? NC means no E-Mails, no phone calls, no cards, no sightings of her...Nothing...

I appreciate everyone views on where withdrawal should take place. It helps me to see that my vision of what repentance look like will need to be examined. (Of course, that is only if WH acts repentant, which he has given no indiaction of doing).

Would it be OK to ask the WS in this negotiation stage (or it is a negotiation ?? ) "WS, what is your plan for our marriage AND what is YOUR plan for actively dealing with the withdrawal - how will you stay on the wagon?"

If the WS is thinking it is all going to be spoon, moon and June after reconciliation, they are bound to be let down when the BS doesn't just go along for the ride. If the WS is nervous about the work involved, would this discussion be appropriate before WS moves home, but after the BS feels they are serious.

Kim, tell me if I am threadjacking. I am not sure I will ever be in your situation, so I am living (and obsessing) vicariously through you!

Mimi - thanks for checking in. This step is definitely tricky. I needed that reassurance on the NC letter, so you checked in at the right time!!!!

The sitch here is that OW had basically dumped WH. Stopped returning his calls and wouldn't answer his calls. In our phone conversation last night(when WH was trying to get me to agree to him reading the NC letter to her voicemail) I asked him if she had an e-mail account. He said no. Then he said Well, I don't know. Maybe she does now. So that rules out any e-mailing that might be going on between them. The last contact that I am aware of was back in early January, but I can't be sure of anything after that. WH is telling me there has been NC for quite some time, but not by his choice.

Did your H despise the OWH? Mine hates him.

Jean, I don't think your threadjacking. You bring some very good thoughts to the table & are helping to point out some questions that I might not be thinking of. Hey, don't completely rule out your sitch!! It's not over til its over!

WH did send up another note. AND Ta Da! The good ole refi issue is back in the mix. He wanted to know two things - 1 - what my objection was to him leaving the NC letter on OW's voice mail & 2 - when could we talk about refinancing. He said he couldn't pay his bills and that this has nothing to do with an affair.

It is so freakin' hard for me to just not tell him to scr#w off. Pardon my language, but he takes one step forward and two steps back with that. I have from now til Sunday to decide if I want to respond with a note. I could use the Dr. Harley response:

"WH, I see you care no more about me than when you first started your A."

I am going to think it over. Trust has everything to do with finances. Plus he is still blowing money by taking DS out to dinner & treating him to days at the museum, etc.

Kim

Steve Harley told me to ASSUME CONTACT unless you can be ABSOLUTELY sure that there is NO CONTACT.

He hesitated about the E-Mail acccount...

It seems like to me that he maybe trying to think of a way to contact her...

I haven't had chance to read your earlier posts about the NC letter but IMO it should be written...

Jean:

The FOUR RULES OF PROTECTION recommended by Harley absolutely have to be agreed upon during early recovery..not doing that resulted in our FALSE RECOVERIES...

My FWH and I continue to follow those rules even after three years..

Oh crap Kim, I hate that he brought up the refi - he sure knows how to spoil a mood huh.

Again, just thinking out loud, if it doesn't matter what brings home a WH, is the fact that he is financially in a bind - is that an OK reason to come home. Like someone said, they didn't care what brought the WS, just that they came home with a committment to the marriage.

How about a "post nuptial agreement", something like "if I ever screw around on Kim again, I will sign the deed to the house over plus pay the mortgage until I die or the house is paid for." If he wants you to bet your $$ on his dedication, perhaps he would like to put it in writing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

just tell me if you want me to shut up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi - I will not back down on the NC letter.

Jean has brought up another good point. WH told me had is way in the red. He borrowed money from someone and he said he cannot afford to pay all his bills. WH did say some things to me to make me believe he misses me. I know he misses DS in a huge way. But, the finances are playing a big part in this too.

How can I make him realize that finances have everything to do with his Affair?

Kim

I like that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mimi, this makes such perfect sense to me. I am a little slow sometimes, thanks for the lightbulb moment.

How about I print out some stuff about finances & marriage for WH? Here's something I found on MSN.com money matters:



Geez. I should go to bed. My brains getting muddled again.

Kim

No wonder your brain's getting muddled, Kim! This is COMPLICATED! The financial sitch is intruding into the recon and things are more complicated than they should be, I think. Your WH wants everything fixed at once, but it would be good if he realized that if he works on the M first, even if things don't immediately fall into place financially, you'll both be working as a team again and able to deal with it effectively and quickly.

As an aside, can someone enlighten me about the FOUR RULES OF PROTECTION that Mimi mentioned?

Kim, he is not sincere. Just put him out of his misery and end these games. He is not ready to come back. He is still trying to negotiate his return, but is only doing it so you will give him some money, NOT because he has any interest whatsoever in committing to the marriage. He is not done with the affair at all, which is why he so desperately wants to keep the nc letter away from the OWH.
He is writing the letter as a quid pro quo. PERIOD.

I would respond to him that in order to consider a reconcilation, you would need the following:

1. No contact letter, of which you approve, sent to OW and her H - mailed together

2. Counseling with Steve Harley

3. Full committment to Marriage Builders Four Rules of Protection [attached]

Assure him you will not consider any financial agreements while the marriage is in this state. If trust is restored after a reconciliation, then you can jointly consider financial agreements. Tell him those are your conditions and to please not contact you until those conditions are met.

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I AGREE TOTALLY WITH ML...

He will agree to these terms when he is ready to commit.

These are the terms that can be be discussed in terms of the particulars..such as How and when to contact Steve...explaining the four rules to him, etc... the letter is not hard..just copy the letter out of SAA..just so the letter is done is all that matters..not the wording of it...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mel.

Not sure why I wanted to read that, given that my WH is still a big black hole, but hey, you never know. Could be useful some day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I tried to just not think about this at all yesterday. Woke up this morning with it on my mind first thing.....

I am typing off the top of my head, but here's my proposed note:

"WH -

Your choices have put me in a position where there is no trust. Trust has everything to do with a M and finances. Successfully merging your finances in marriage requires honesty, communication, flexibility and trust. I need to be able to trust you again before I can consider entering into a financial committment with you.

Here are the steps that need to happen in order for us to move forward:
1 - I need to see a copy of the letter you have written to OW. If I agree with what you have written, then it needs to be mailed.
2 - Counseling with Steve Harley.
3 - A committment to the Marriage Builders four rules of Protection.

When you can tell me you are ready for this, let me know. Please don't contact me again until you can.

Love,

Kim

I woke up not feeling great about WH being in such a bad financial state. Is it really right for me to make him suffer like this? I feel like I am being cruel. I want to help him. I have forgiven him for the A and I know he feels like he is being coerced slightly with the $$ thing. That I a being manipulative. I now WH made the choices he made and the A is not my fault. He is the one who brought this on himself. I am just having a hard time with this today. I feel like I have hardened my heart to his sitch.

Kim

Kim, you have this backwards, he is the one who is manipulating YOU. He chooses to have his affair and wants you to finance it using family money that should rightfully go for supporting you and DS. He is in a bad financial state because he is having an affair and because he REFUSES to end it and recommit to this marriage. Please don't let him manipulate you with guilt, because that is exactly what he is doing. He knows how to play you.

Does he EVER EVER mention reconciliation? He only seems to mention FINANCES, which tells me he has no interest whatsoever in reconciliation. Did you notice this, Kim?

Now, if you send the letter that way, he will legalistically follow it to the LETTER, and not to the spirit. He will "sign the form letter," agree to talk to Dr. Harley sometime in the future, and read the Four Rules of Protection. "Ok, now where is my damn refi money? And I am not sure when or if I will be back. " <-------------this is what I envision will happen. This is where I believe you are headed if you cave in on his NON COMMITMENT now. The letter is good, but I would add something to the effect that it is the COMMITTMENT that is required and that you won't consider entering into any financial agreement until trust is RESTORED after a successful reconciliation.

His reluctance to send this letter to the OWH also is very disconcerting and tells me he is NOT SERIOUS. It tells me that he doesn't want him to know this so that he will have other opportunities in the FUTURE. Keeping the OWH in the dark, keeps your WS options OPEN. If he SECRETLY sends the letter, he can assuage you but continue pursuing the OW. So DON'T CATER TO HIS DESIRE to keep the OWH out of the loop. You only do so at your own great expense.

Further, I think this issue is the GREATEST indicator of his level of sincerity. You should heed this warning, Kim.

WH -

Your choices have put me in a position where there is no trust. Trust has everything to do with a M and finances. Successfully merging your finances in marriage requires honesty, communication, flexibility and trust. I would never consider entering into any financial agreement with you until trust is restored in our marriage after a successful reconciliation. A sincere commitment to our marriage and repairing the damage is required for reconciliation.


Here are the steps that need to happen in order for us to move forward:
1 - I need to see a copy of the letter you have written to OW. If I agree with what you have written, then it needs to be mailed together with a copy sent to OWH.
2 - Counseling with Steve Harley.
3 - A committment to the Marriage Builders four rules of Protection.

When you can tell me you are ready for this, let me know. I am not interested in negotiating. Please don't contact me again until you can.

The only one making him suffer is the man in the mirror. He has COMPLETE control of his destiny and can make this end tomorrow if he chooses.

HE DOES NOT CHOOSE.

He chooses, rather, for KIM to make the sacrifices that will put him out of his misery by breaking her Plan and RELAXING her conditions to allow him to get some money *AND* continue to carry on his single life in pursuit of his honey.

He would much prefer that KIM AND DS suffer for his choices than HIMSELF because he is not done with his affiar. He only wants you to end his suffering so he doesn't have to stop.


Don't forgive until he has actually STOPPED. You have no indication whatsoever that he has stopped his pursuit of the OW. There is nothing to forgive him for YET.

Kim, if you will hold out a little longer here, you will get your marriage back. But if you cave in before he is truly ready, then you are in for a terrible false recovery. Don't settle for the FOOLS GOLD he is offering. Hold out for the REAL THING. It is coming if you will just be PATIENT.

Kim, the refinance would be a bad idea even if your husband were a choirboy who never so much as looked at another woman. The problem with refinancing to pay debts is that it doesn't change the spending habits that led to the debts. Your WH is not someone who had one catastrophic financial event, like having to take 6 months off work due to illness, that led to his being in debt. He's in debt because he spends more than he makes. That pattern is not going to stop once you refi, and once the equity in your house is gone, what will be his next quick fix?

Kim,

The BS really wants the WS to suffer....yes we do. The one we want to help is our H. AS long as we are 'helping' the WS, our spouse suffers. So in reality some of us BS' are enabling the A by helping the WS (through various means....cooking dinner, paying his bills, etc.). I know. I did the same.

When I stopped helping the WS, the A waivered. Remember the WS and OP want to make memories. They are going to make memories.....why should the BS and family contribute to their happy memories? I decided to contribute to 'their memories' by NOT supporting the WS..... The WS choose to sleep out in his truck (in CA in the winter), choose to go hungry (he preferred TacoBell for dinner so he c/b loyal to the OW, choose to let his bills accumulate, etc..... and I let it happen. I no longer choose to step in and take care of his life for him. Our home, no longer welcomed him as a WS. Only as our H and father.

U decide who you let into your space. Use his same babbling words against him.....now is that time.

L.