Quite the contrary actually. When you hurt someone's feelings their ears shut, their heart closes... and you just lost any hope you had of getting your point through to them.

There is no message in this life which should not be delivered with kindness.

My dear friend KY said once that it is very hard to offend her, but very easy to hurt her feelings. How very true this is for most of us.

There is nobody in this world who knows what is right beyond a shadow of a doubt in any sitch...because none of us has all the information of past, present or future at our disposal. So to deliver your message as if you know better and therefore have no need of using kindness and respect in your approach is arrogant AND counterproductive.

I have seen another friend of mine get bashed for a path he has chosen for his sitch to the point of inability to continue with his threads due to this lack of kindness and respect by some posters.

How sad that he cannot get the support/advice/new ideas that he would like because anger/hurt sets in.

I personally love Mel, and so I do not take her delivery in the way which some might...but we all don't have this relationship with everyone who is posting to us and so delivery is very important.

Isn't that exactly what's happened?

The moderators act on behalf of the Harleys, don't forget.

Frequently, the mods remind us that tolerance and good manners are required on the forum, and associate those attributes with MB principles.

This is a tactful way, I believe, to remind us what MB principles are.

TA

Yep...

I would think that Tempest got approval from the Harleys...

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH WEAVER...so wonderfully and beautifully said....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Together, you're probably right. Tempest's changed post indicates the Harleys just might be getting personally involved, doesn't it?

I think so much time and effort is being put into who is right and who is wrong that people who are here needing help are not getting it.

Please, let's get back to the reason we are here- marriage building- not blame laying.

I am farily certain that if I were a newby and popped in today to look for help, I'd be terrified to post.

I honestly do not believe that Mel, Pep, Lem or anyone wlse who has been mentioned would want to be the center of attention.

Please get back on track.

Thanks moveforward. There are two new ones on Just Found Out today.

So Jen,

what did you do with that thought. Did you ultimately confess to your H. Sorry, I should be more up on your post.
I suspect my W felt the same way, but could never find the courage to do so.
Thus my STD setlled all issues.
All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, my H found out by finding all my relationship books in the bottom drawer of my bedside table. I was on the verge of telling him anyway. It was a given that I would, I just didn't know how to.

He asked me in the middle of that night and I confessed immediately. We talked all through the night, I can't remember if I went to work the next day, but he didn't. He went to see his sister for support and to tell her. The next day we both took the day off work (H was in shock). I rang a marriage counsellor I found in the phone book and we went that afternoon. She saw us separately, then together. She was absolutely wonderful. A pro marriage, wonderful lady.

I absolutely agree with you that my post could come across as arrogant and condesending. I am unfortunately not in a position of being able to reestablish myself with the current crop of posters with regard to style, experience, and "wisdom quotient"---I lack the time to spend here to do so, and I wish it wasn't the case. If you're so inclined, I'd encourage you to spend some time in the archived posts and browse through some to try to get a feel for the board in earlier days---which is the point that I'm trying to make.

You had an excellent point in your post that will serve as an illustration:


Let me preface this by telling you that I'm a scientist who is used to being right and laying out workflows and experiements to determine mechanisms that I am studying. Having said this, I've become very practical and empirical about the world around me. If we had this misunderstanding---it would not be my fault. But it wouldn't be your fault either. It would simply be a failure to communicate. And because I was trying to communicate something to you, the onus is on me to change the way I'm approaching you---my style of communication, the phraseology of the message---until you get it, or I feel it's either not important enough to continue or fail totally and decide I have no further avenues to approach you with. My issue is with effectively communicating with other people, so that they can see (and understand for themselves) the ideas that need to be brought across.

You have yet another terrific example a little later:


Nothing sugar-coated about that. Nothing untrue either. But look from the standpoint of a wayward spouse (if you can)---is that method of going to be effective in presenting the cruelity of the affair and get them to introspectively consider what they have done and evoke change? It's not likely. Having said that---months later when they do get around to dealing with the magnitude of what they've done---they will look back on that and say "duh..."

So, having watched Steve and Jenn in action---I would tell you that they would likely ask the WS how their current affair makes their betrayed spouse feel. How it affects the BS's love for them. They would discuss ethics and morality---not in a "you are immoral" situation, but to get the WS's to recognize thier own behavior as inconsistant with the "bright shiny world of love" that they claim the affair to be.

The end message is the same. But the delivery is vastly different, and the goal is to be as effective as possible to get the wayward spouse to introspectively realize what they are doing, and how it's not good for their own self-interest. Until then, you're not going to break the addiction cycle.


Amen to that. That is one reason that many old-timers do recommend the 888-639-1639 approach to learning MB (as BrambleRose brought up). When Steve and Jenn work with clients, they seem to give advice that isn't consistant with the "mainstream MB" stuff. That's rarely the case---what usually happens is that the focus is on a different (and non-intuitive) part of the MB principles tailored for the specific situation. And they're pretty good with it. This board is not a substitute for counseling, and I would really remind participants here that when they give advice they're doing so to real people in real pain---it can be a huge and daunting responsibility if you do this seriously (I did it for years and was never fully comfortable with the role of "MB elder")


I do. And I'm pretty sure it's been close before, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not close now. That's one reason I'm spending some time here---to attempt to help this situation. As moving forward notes, let's get back to MarriageBuilding.

Longhorn ~ i didnt say oldtimers were giving out bad information about MB principles.

I said that sometimes oldtimers give specific advice to individuals that is often off the mark.

I will share about how *I* applied the MB principles in my situation. I will try to help others progress along the path of personal growth, so that they can make better decisions for themselves.

But I do believe telling someone: You must expose. You must do plan A. You must do plan B...etc etc is sorely misguided.

I haven't been on these boards as long as K...but I've been here long enough to know that this board has gotten more nasty and disrespectful than I have ever seen it. I've been making comments about the tone here for a few months.

Terrific post, K. Thank you for sticking around here!

Kathi

I'm sorry you didn't understand my point, K. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I did understand, Longhorn. I took an apparently ineffective communication path in an attempt to address it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But it's not a huge issue with me and I'm fine with the ATD approach...

sheesh, enough already people! This has been pretty much beaten to death is and not worth all this attention. I can't tell you how much I hate all this commotion....over ME. I am hardly the only poster on this forum and don't warrant all this fuss.

I just want to clarify a couple of quick points of apparent confusion and then I hope we can get back to the business at hand and let this foolishness die.

First off, Tempest did not admonish me. At least that is what she says; she swears her thread was not directed at me. I was never admonished, in any way, for my behavior on the "karma" thread. Several others, however, were edited for personal attacks in the form of name calling. [that is all edited out by Justuss, so you can't see it] Tempest did send me a private email in response to MY email to her, but she never admonished me about that thread.

I felt Tempest's thread WAS directed at me because she refuted my very point using my very words <----this was my issue. I felt it was a thinly veiled attempt to publicly chastise me, but she claims it was not. I do see that she has done some serious editing on her original post to erase any trace of the connection to the debate on Lemonman's thread. The bottom line is that Tempest knows what she meant better than anyone else since she was the author.

Another point is that we were debating "public" exposure after the affair ends. That was never the point. The point of contention was exposure to the BS spouse by another BS long after the affair. The opposing viewpoint was that exposure to the BS "was not positive." I used Harley's quotes from articles to support my contention that he does support such exposure.

And yes he does; we heard it from his own mouth on his radio show on Thursday. Someone from this forum called him on Thursday's radio show and he affirmed that he was aware of the karma thread and agreed that the OMW was correct in exposing to the other BS. So, yes we heard right from the horses mouth that he does support such an exposure.

As far as my forthright style, I would like to state that this is my personality and it won't be changing at this late date. I am sorry, but I like myself just as I am and am most comfortable in my skin. I graduated from the school of Hard Knocks and worked hard to become who I am. I sort of like her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Some might not like it, that is your own issue that you have to deal with it as you see fit; I can't control your feelings. I wouldn't dream of telling someone how they should express their personality and I won't have someone tell me how to express mine. The only approval I need is from the man upstairs and the woman in the mirror, thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want to thank those of you who so ardently defended me and apologize to the people here who really DO need help and didn't recieve it because of all this uproar over nothing.

Please, can we just drop it and get back to business?

Your wish is my command, lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't even read your post...

JUST SO HAPPY TO SEE YOU BACK...

LIFE WASN'T THE SAME WITHOUT YOU....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Mimi, I missed y'all very muchly. So sorry for all the commotion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a strong suspicion is Tempest did not want SongStreet,, uhhhh ML, here, she's be gone in an instant.

Missed ya Pal...

Hope you were off doing something exciting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It'd better be!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Ya know that Texan's packin',, right?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel, I have an issue with you.

Are you sure that 48 in your sig line is completely correct?

Bwwwwwwwwaaaaaaahaaaaaaahhhaaaaa