hi everyone, ive been posting in the infidelity plan a/b section and the suggestion was made to move my post to this one b/c of more traffic. If anyone is willing to give me suggestions please go through my thread. The subject is something like "How do I not feel so much pain" in the Plan A/Plan B section. I would appreciate any suggestions and thoughts all of you might have. LA has already been so much help. Everyong has. Im thankful for this site. I don't know where I would be without it.

Im not sure how to link my other thread but ill try to put it in my signature line. Thanks again.

Here is the link to his previous thread How can I not feel so much pain!! Help! From Plan A/Plan B Forum

And his other thread What is she thinking?? in Just Found Out Forum

Thanks for creating a new thread, WA...you know, I think I abbreviated your name wrong. I read it to be whereareanswers and it's not. Would it be WRA? Sounds like an organization. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can also cut and paste today's post from the other thread to this one. Open it up, highlight it and then ctrl-c. Then come back to this thread and under reply, push ctrl-v. I want to build this thread in GQ II so that you get as much help as possible with ending the A, exposure, no contact, etc. Lots of people have been in your shoes. You need to hear from them, 'k?

Now...your older daughter...WHAT? How did I miss this? Would be good to clarify, 'k? Maybe I remember..but she should be in your sigline, too, I think.

I'll post after you cut and paste, 'k?

And you built a house yourself? Wow. Yep, no more stabbing. Nononono. Good commitment on that. Otherwise, I'll have to beat you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I think that you need to make every effort to contact the OM's wife. That will put a little light on the affair.

You can also get a life of your own, and stop enabling the affair by being the babysitter every night.

I realized yesterday Im being way to hard on myself. Like you said Im stabbing myself. I stopped Im not goiing to do it anymore! Aleast try my very hardest not to.

No I haven't exposed her A to our families yet. I have thought about writing "Im cheating on my husband" across the back of her car. you know how little kids always write wash me. HEEHEE wouldn't that be kinda funny.

Last night I went and picked up my little pumkin b/c W was home by noon but went home and slept all afternoon. Wonder why? spose cause she was out till 230 the night before. I dont really care anymore if she wants to disrespect me because I know who I am and she cant hurt me anymore. It still really bothers me she does this to her daughter. To disrespectful to go get her from daycare b/c she not responsible enough to come home at a decent time the night before! I don't get it. Her choice I guess.

I got home and then WW went to get some groceries. I wanted to go with but I just stayed home. Didn't ask. thought if she wants me with she'll ask. She got back and I had to go to my oldest daughters parent teacher confrence. I asked the W if she wanted to go with. "not my kid not my problem!"
W has never missed anything weather it be a confrence program, bible camp program whatever it was she always went with me. And now she makes a comment like that. I just said "well thats your choice I'll see you after while then"
good bye. I went to conferences and then I called her and told her that I was done with conferences but I was going to a friends house for awhile. She asked me like a 101 questions about how my daughter is doing in this and that.
I just wanted to say "my kid my problem" but I just answers as short and considerate as I could.

so I spent a long time at my friends house and she called later on and told me she was going to bed and I just said ok good night honey ill be home by 12 for sure ok. She just mad a grunting sound and say just stay out once! I said well i would like to be home by then so I was just letting you know when I planned on being home kay. She alright good night. After of course she asked me again where I was who else is there, where does he live all the questions a WS will ask. I just gave her short nondiscriptive answers. in way to make her keep wondering ya know.

Well I texted her this morning "hey I was thinkin about going to the comedy club once tonight. I know you have a big day but maybe you would like to go with. Just see how your day goes and think about it. Have a wonderful day!"
she didn't reply right of way but when she did "What would we do with pumkin? And Im not going to be home til late!"
I said "well I'll take care of finding a sitter and we can go to the late show. I think its at 10. just an idea."

I haven't heard anything back from her so I guess we'll see.

I've told my self that if she doesn't want to go don't take it hard. I know Im not her friends and she probably wont want to go out until 230 with me. I'm not getting down on my self about this im just preparing myself for the thoughts that Ill have if she doesnt go. Im preparing myself so I cant stab myself.

I know I should go anyway but I really want to be with her. Maybe if we don't go to the comedy show we can get a couple movies. I just want to spend all my time with her. Thats where my biggest LB was I believe. You see we built a new house a year ago and I did almost all the work on it so you can imagine how much I was gone. She was pregnant when I started the house then she haad the baby about half way through. I stayed home with her for a week after she had the little pumkin. I didn't realize how much it bothered her and now that I've been hit with a 2x4 on the back of the head my eyes are peeled wide open. In my defense I was doing it all for her/us. I was fine where we were at but we both agreed that the oppertunity to build so much equity into a huge investment like this would help put us were we want to be in 10 years. The home of our dreams. I know its not her fault wellnot all of it. Maybe she did tell me your not home much and I wasnt hearing that. But I did hear her say all the time I want that house done! so I was pullin all nighters for her b/c I knew she wanted it to be done so bad. I wish I could've seen the sign then I would've hired someone to do the house. I'm tring to make up for that now by being for there for her now it just feels like Im in a place I shouldn't be. ya now the DJs she makes and then i try to defend myself with Djs right back. Wrong I know Im workin on it.

I told her about counseling last night to. She just said Oh thats a 100 then. hmm

So if she goes or not its up to her. I am going this time. I promise.

You asked me in a post earlier what book am I reading? Im going to pick up the book His Needs/Her Needs this weekend. Im kinda excited about getting it. I've heard alot of good things about it. Thats wierd b/c I hate to read. im a hands on kinda guy. But Ive read more in the last month than I did in all my years of school!

I think talking to my friend last night really helped. He just keep saying WA how long you going to put yourself through this. You don't deserve to be treated like this. I said I know but my marriage doesnt deserve me to just through in the towel yet. I'm working on our marriage right now. I know who she really is and Im going to try to wait for the real her to come back. He just said you have hung on alot longer than I would. I just don't know what to tell ya. I just said I know you don't know what to say and thats fine I just need someone to talk to sometimes. He said Im hear when ever you need me buddy. Its so nice to have a good friend that stands behind you no matter what.

Thanks again LA

--------------------
me BS 26
WW 25
married 5yrs
1 child 14 mos.
DD 01/15/06

well she texted me back about tonight. She said she doesnt feel like laughing.
i said Why? I think it would be good for both of us. once.
she said "why do you want to go out with me soo bad?
I said "I just want to go something with you. your fun!"

I haven't heard nothin back since. Maybe I should just back off it. I just really need to know so I can get a sitter and call for reservations. I'll wait awhile here and see if she replies at all.

Believer- about his wife. I know she lives in a different city a couple hours away. I don't know what there situation is they do have a child together. The ww keeps changing her story she tells me. OMs story to her probably keeps changing to. I'm trying to get the info I need so I can figure out who she is and who his parents are. And most of all who he is. I know his first name and I've seen him but thats all.

LA- My oldest, I thought I had mentioned that I had a high school fling that resulted in me becoming a father. she is 8.

That's right...about your DD8...I totally forgot. My bad, not yours.

I thought of you when I was driving home from work a short while ago. There was a white car ahead of me caked with dirt and I thought of your idea about exposure by writing on her car. I had to smile.

And confess.

My fantasy exposure was to soap the windows at my H's work with "Homewreckers work here! Ask Mgmt!!" And I dreamed of standing at the drive-thru holding a sign that said, "Manager is having an affair; he's married with 3 children." My friends talked me out of it...though one of them was up for a 3am soap party.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're not alone.

Are you still reading AdrianC's thread? Tracionado recommended while in Plan A, don't ask any question that begins with "Why." I heard this before in my communication books (can't remember which one). Probably a good rule of thumb to follow.

Get a sitter and go yourself, WA. Laugh yer butt off and let me know the level of talent. You might inspire me to get back onstage again. You never know.

LA

So she's still seeing the OM if I understand correctly? And it sounds like she want's to see him tonight as well, eh?

You need to expose this thing. Helping her keep this thing a secret is of no help. Affairs live on fantasy. When your family becomes aware of the affair, the fantasy will be over and reality will smack her across the face. Don't threaten exposure by the way, just do it.

Sounds like you are doing a great job of plan A! Keep that part up. She is rude and resentful to you because plan A is working. She doesn't want you to be nice and kind. She wants you to be the opposite and give her a reason to justify her affair.

Definately work on contacting the OM's wife and even his family if possible. Exposure works much better when you can expose the OP as well.

You mention in your other threads that one moment she is sorry for this and wants to work it out, the next minute she wants to leave you. This is actually normal. She is in a real addiction right now. You will see moments of rational thinking on her part, but those moments will soon disappear and the addict will take over.

Counseling is a waste of time right now, save your money. Independent counseling might be good for you, but marriage counseling is useless at this point.

Consider giving Harley a call. He/She specializes in affairs and they get you on a plan immediately.

hope everyone had a good weekend. I had a good long weekend.
Got to spend the day with my little pumkin yesterday b/c daycare was closed to some presidents day holiday?.

Well friday night I got a sitter. W seemed to be disappointed and impressed at the same time. She said her and her friend were going out. I said well Im going to the bar then Im going to the comedy show. Who are you going with she asked. I said i was going to go with my wife but she is busy so Im on my own tonight. My W didn't really say much. We went our seperate ways. I was sitting at the bar and she called me.
What are you doin?
me- just sittin here having a drink watchin the game.
she would you be willing to come and get me and my friend at her house and go with us tonight?
me I'd love to but what are your plans.
she we want to do some bar hoping and we need a driver. you wanna be our cabbie?
me when you want to leave.
she whenever you can get here.
me well I try to be there in a little while.
she thanks honey.

So needless to say I didn't go to the show. They been getting some decent talant to come in lately though.

I drove my wife and friend around and tried to do my own thing at whatever bar we were at so they could have there "space". It was kinda nice b/c almost everywhere we went I seen som old friends and talked to them. One of W co-workers came up to me and said your W is wondering why your out lookin for hamburger when you have steak over there?
I just laughed and said Im not the one goin out for hamburger b/c I know where my steak is! and I left it at that. So I went and talk to W and her friend for a little while. Hope that what her co-worker said was a hint to go spend some time with her?.
I really tried had to do everything I could for her and her friend. I dropped them off at the door I got them drinks I went and got the vehicle and picked them up at the door. Just tried to be the best cabbie in town!
At the end of the night her friend came up to me and gave me a huge hug and said WA you're the sweetest guy in the world. Hang in there.
That felt good that someone notices!
When we got home the W came to my side of the bed and said thanks for changing your plans and takin me and my friend.
I said I had fun.
she me too maybe we can do that again sometime.
me maybe.
She cuddled with me for awhile and went to sleep.

So as you can imagine I was pretty happy about that night.
Sat. morning I got up and started getting ready for counseling. She said she didn't now if she wanted to work on her marriage yet so she wasn't going to go. I said thats fine Im still going for my self.
She Will you tell me what you talk about?
me if you want to know your welcome to come along.
she well I want to talk to you about it when you get home.
me we'll see. if I want to talk about it Ill talk about it with you ok
she. ok

So I went and she went to her friends house. She texted me right on the hour that I told her I should be done. I waited about 15 min and texted her back and just said that I am at home cleaning. Come home when you want. She came home about 15 min. later.
She how did it go?
me fine
she What did you talk about?
me me
she well did it help you?
me yeah
she so what did you talk about?
me W I really don't want to talk about this right know ok. please.
she okay then but I want you to talk to me about it.

Later on I went and just said. W I have to show some self respect and not put up with this much longer.

she put up with what.
me The A your involved in.
she I told you it was over.
me Then you will be willing to write a no contact letter.
she I don't know.
me then its not over.

I then walked out of the room. I could really see the gears turning in her mind when I walked out. She had some girl party to go to you know where you girls get things for yourselves! HEHEHE. So she left about 5 and she then came home about 1:30. Holy cow! Thats early! csught me off guard. She again cuddled with me all night.

The rest of the weekend went well. I talked to my dad and brother and told them what was going on. My sister-in-law said join the club! Talk about a shocker! my brother has been cheatin on her for 2 and a half years! Can I kick his [censored] now!!! They are in counseling and he told me he was honestly sorry for what he did. WOW!! I don't know what to say!

So all I have left are her parents. I haven't told her that my dad and brother and sister know. If she ask then yes I'll tell her. But do you think I should tell her even if she doesn't ask. Its kind of keeping a secret if I don't tell her aint it?

I think it really is over this time b/c she found out OM is with someone else too. Totally pissed her off. She talked about him and her friend thats in the fog too last night for about an hour saying how stupid they are. Then she said maybe Im just a hippercret. I have no room to talk. I just said I just don't think you like to see people do stupid things and hurt someone else maybe thats why you are so worried about them. I think now is a good time for you to just focus on yourself and let them other people make there own mistakes and you have a chance now to fix yours. She said I know. then she started talking about him again. I don't know why I was even with him we fought all the time about stupid ******. You probably don't want to hear about him though do you WA. I said No I don't want to talk about him. I want to be here to listen to you if it helps you to talk about him then let it out.
she. Well i have to vent about it.
me I know and I'll be here for you
she after a long pause she reached over and grabbed my hand and said im sorry WA.
I said good night W.

All day yesterday I just thought about what they did together and when the last time was that they've done something. I know it doesn't matter but I just cant get it out of my head. I know she noticed last night b/c she was asking what was wrong. I just told her Im just thinking about some things and I have to get ahold of it myself. She well what is it just tell me. I said I just want to know how many times you guys where together and when was the last time you did something? I know it doesn't matter but Im just having a hard time today.
She who cares if we did it once or a hundred times.
Me I know. I just want to know if you have done anything since you've told me b/c you kept telling me nothing was going on but I don't feel like your telling me the truth.
she well we did it a couple times since I told you. what now you dont know if you want to work on us.
me Honestly I dont. I want to but I dont know how much love I have left.
she I knew this would happen. Your always going to bring this up aren't you? you'll never forget about it.
me I don't think either one of us will eveer forget about this. And I want to not mention it b/c I know you don't want to hear it. Im having a hard day ok. You still haven't comitted to me anyway.
she i told you I want to work on us for you. to make you happy.
me well Im willing to work on us as soon as you decide to recommit your life to me.

she then had to go to a work meeting. When she got home she said she hasn't been feeling good the last couple days.
I just wanted to say is your guilt finally takin over?! but I was just my plesent little self and asked if I could get her water or anything.

Well maybe she is coming out of the fog this time. I guess I'll have to continue to be myself and take it day by day and see what happens. I really have to tell myself to settle down lately. just like last weekend I am telling myself shes finally awake and then i just let myself down. It won't happen this time.

About thinkin about what happened btwn them I have a couple really good days where I don't even think about it then the next I cant get it off my mind. After hearing her tell me it happened more times after I asked that she respect our marriage enough not to do it with him again until we are divorced I was kinda pist but at the same time I told myself you know it was going on so what are you pist about your still here for your marriage b/c you love her and your daughter and you still want a family. If you didn't you would be gone. I just have to keep telling myself the reasons im still here. it just seems everyday that list gets shorter and shorter.

My counseler had a good point. Take a flower. the flower is love and the roots are trust. take away the roots(trust) the flower will eventually die(love). How much longer will your flower be blooming WA? You cant trust her. thats gone. You want to you just cant.

How true is that. I want to but I cant. she hasn't shown me she wants me to trust her again. I still love her but I don't know how much longer I can go like this. Its not healthy for me and ecspeacially not for my little pumkin.

Thanks again everyone.

WA,

Boy oh boy! I hear you about the reasons for sticking it out. I'm in month #8 of WW's A. I filed for D right after I found out (knee jerk reaction). She's been in a dense fog up until around 3 weeks ago and is now unsure of what it is she wants out of life. The trust issue is my biggest concern as we've not gotten to the NC stage yet so, the A is still on as far as I'm concerned.

My real challenge is trying to figure out how to overcome the trust issue. If we can't there is no point trying to rebuild.

Trust can be regained...regiven...rebuilt...how does that work with the flower metaphor?

Love comes back...witness the lovebank.

Right now, there is trust...you can trust your WS's to lie, trust them to be in the fog, and trust them to wish they weren't hurt you. Those are bankable right now. Later is later.

Barking...you sound exactly like my WH a year and a half ago. Ask him today...total trust. Earned back. Radical honesty and transparency. Same with him. Plus, we defined our codes...standards and boundaries, and are practicing acting from them and not reacting to each other.

Can be done. Lots of proof all over these boards. The stage you're in, Plan A but no contact achieved yet (written agreement backed by action) is really, really tough. Total exposure is necessary. Barking, did you do that? WA is still progressing on it. The slower you are at it, in steps and stages, than the all at once, is that it can be seen as a retaliation for pain. You said this, so I told so-and-so. Then you said this, so I told more so-and-so's...not that we give credence to what WS's fog tells them about what you're doing. All at once matters. But you do the best you can do.

I would advise not believing anything your WS says, WA, regarding how often or since when for the A...hold your questions until after no contact is agreed to and transparency is established, when she recommits to the marriage. Then you can begin to believe her. Until then, you're adding to pain in the right now. When you were so down and full of questions, images, wonderings and she asked, "I feel so full of pain from betrayal. Knowing you're still in the A by being in contact and knowing about his life, I feel replaced, excluded and second rate. I'm sitting with that right now."

Feel what you feel and say those things. I didn't get details until after because those details were obscured, argued and combative rather than revealed. You do what you want, but if you say, "I believe her when she gives me details, but not about where's she is going or partying with" then that would be confusing, wouldn't it? Having to decide when to believe and when not to?

Sounds like you're doing wonderfully on not LBing...glad you choose to be cabbie because you enjoyed it.

No, don't tell her about exposing to your family, like sharing information or an announcement. She'll know over time, and if she asks, then be honest. You want as much support as possible in saving your marriage.

You can say what you learned about your brother and how they are in counseling and saving their marriage (did you tell SIL about MB?).

Thinking of ya,

LA

barking-Sorry to hear about your situation. It really sucks I know. Your a really strong man to hang in there for as long as you have. I'll be thinkin of ya.

LA-thanks again for the advice. I understand I cantrust her to lie and be in the fog. I just honestly don't know how much longer I can put myself and daughter through this bs. Ya know I have to start getting on with my life b/c it pretty obvious she is getting on with hers with out me.

Last night she told me again that she isn't attracted to me anymore. This coming from her after a wonderful weekend together. She had a sexual attraction to me on Saturday night. I asked her what that was all about then if she is not attracted to me why would you make love to someone you're not attracted too? she said Well I was drunk and horny. I said well you still came home to me doesn't that mean anything. She I don't know.

The conversation continued and thanks for the advice of the why questions I stopped myself several time from saying that. She also said I don't really know her. I said what do you mean by that. She I've cheated on every boyfriend I've ever had. I said maybe but we've been together for over 5 years and this is the first time you've cheated on me. I must have been doing something right? She a soft yeah. Then she was like its been like two years since we've just had sex like all day and 2 or 3 days in a row. I said Im always willing your the one that said you where tired or didn't feel good. she I wasn't tired I just didn't want to do it with you.

Im sorry about all this sex talk but she really has me confused now! Before the baby yes we had a wonderful sex life. after well you know once in awhile. I just don't understand how come all the sudden this whole thing is now about sex?! She always got mad before if I would grab her butt or try to make a pass at her and now is that what she wants? He11 I have no idea!

Last night she also told me that she cant be alone. and that she hasn't been alone since she was 16. She always had a boyfriend. She also said she is scared to death to be alone. So I said your scared to death to be alone but you know you don't want to be with me? she said I've tried to get those feelings back for you and they are just not there. I said well I know that feelings don't just come back over night and its up to you to feel what you feel. If you want to leave you know where the door is. She said don't you want me happy. I said yes. She then why are you still tring. Me -is that what will make you happy, my and pumkin by ourselves? She said Im still hear b/c I think you are scared to be by yourself. me no Im not scared to be by myself. Im scared i will regret not tring my harest for our marriage and our family. She said well im here and that makes you happy so as long as your happy then i guess im suppose to just act happy. Me Im happy your here im not happy that your not happy being here. if its that bad maybe you should leave.

She never said a thing after that. Well she did say after about 5 minutes. good night.

Im so sick of being at her beckon call I could just scream! Last night she stayed home but didn't move from the F-ing couch! I made her supper brought it to her, fed pumkin, went and got her plate from her, then she said she had the munchies, I made her a pretzel, that wasn't very good so then I made her popcorn, that was ok but she was still not satisfied! before all this she was like ok american idol is on so you two have to be quiet. So me and pumkin went to my bedroom and played. W yells what are you doin? I said we're playin. then pumkin went to bed. So I just went and sat in our room. W told me she wanted me by her. but on the end of the couch. I couldn't be next to her like we were all weekend and the last couple days. I then gave her and hour massage AGAIN!! How many of those damn things do I have to give! My hands are sore. Well after that is when we talked about what I wrote earlier.

I've been thinkin all night and today about just getting an attorney filing for primary physical custody of my pumkin and then filing for a divorce. I can't do a seperation. I don't think I could live wondering who she is sleeping with every night that Im not there. Im doing it now and I cant hardly stand it.

I want tell her to make up her damn mind so bad!! I know thats not the right thing to say thats why I haven't said it. Maybe she is right. Maybe im just not what she wants anymore. I mean shes been with me for about 6 total years. Maybe thats long enough for her.

Im just about to my threads end. I really love my W and I care about her so much. It jst doesn't seem to matter to her anymore. So why should I keep lieing to myself saying that she is just confused hang in there. He11 maybe Im the one confused and she is seeing everything clearly!

Oh another thing she said all my friends don't think you should even still be giving me a chance. Me who cares what your friends think I should be doing they don't know the fun we've had together they dont know how happy we used to be they dont have a family to try to do the right things for. Seriously what do they know! The fact is Im still here b/c I want to be and thats my choice. If I want to give up on my marriage and my family it will be on my time not when your friends tell me or you.

got cut off there. but yeah what the heck is this woman thinkin. I don't know if she is happy im giving her a chance to make things right or if she is just pist off at me for hangin around and tellin her that I want to be there for her.

Well I just needed to get some crap off my chest. I know someone will give me some good suggestions.

Thanks guys.

WA,

I'm reading and posting at the same time...hope I don't get messed up doing it this way....too much work to do my usual.

"Ya know I have to start getting on with my life b/c it pretty obvious she is getting on with hers with out me."

WA? Why do you base what you can or can't take, what action you are choosing, on what your wife appears to be doing? Acting from your own code is where you are trying to get to, because then, she cannot be responsible for your choices.

When she repeatedly wanted to know how MC went, you can politely and truthfully say, "I would love for you to know what was discussed by being there. If you want to know, please come with me. I don't want to relay anything to you because it went into my filter first."

"She also said I don't really know her. I said what do you mean by that. She I've cheated on every boyfriend I've ever had. I said maybe but we've been together for over 5 years and this is the first time you've cheated on me. I must have been doing something right? She a soft yeah."

Tough hearing the I'm-not-attracted-to-you stuff. Glad you realized that wasn't what she means...seeing as you have evidence to the contrary. That statement (which I've read over and over by WS') really bite me. See how strong you are? You didn't step right in and believe it. You thought it out--words didn't match actions, can't be explained away. Here is where you do the repeat really well. "I hear you believe you aren't attracted to me anymore." "I hear you have a problem with cheating and that you are aware of it."

"Then she was like its been like two years since we've just had sex like all day and 2 or 3 days in a row. I said Im always willing your the one that said you where tired or didn't feel good. she I wasn't tired I just didn't want to do it with you." Okay, WA...saying, "Hey, it's not me, it's you" isn't that helpful. Come here and say it but not to her. "I hear you miss the way we were before punkin was born. I feel that way, too. I crave and desire you, miss that intimacy. I look forward to those days of passions again when we rebuild our marriage."

By answering her fog, you open yourself to get hurt...like the, "Nah, I lied and just didn't want to" stuff. You know in Plan A, you will take some pain--I don't want you to keep opening yourself to more of it. Doing that will really wear you down because you get her punch and your own to yourself. Least you can do is not punch yourself, 'k?

May I repeat that for your health, you should not be engaging in SF with your WW without protection? Did she go and get tested? Did you?

"I just don't understand how come all the sudden this whole thing is now about sex?! " WA...it is not about sex. Understand, she admitted she's always cheated...sex means something to her you're not getting. Could be acceptance? When she's feeling unacceptable (like because she's having an A and that's unacceptable to you), then having sex gives her a temporary feeling of being accepted. My hypothesis, but it is a symbol. WS's will attempt to push the BS away all over the place, so why not in the sex arena? Plan A is for saying, "Nope. I'm here. I have goal and I believe in it. I'm not the cause of your A. I'm your husband."

You choose to buy in or remain detached with love. Buy in it is about sex, or that she hasn't had this reaction to her cheating in her entire life and is going to try to come up with everything she can think of to get you to leave her?

"She always got mad before if I would grab her butt or try to make a pass at her and now is that what she wants? He11 I have no idea!" Ask her, without why's..."How would you like me to demonstrate my desire for you?"

I wouldn't ask a foggy WS this, but if you want to, go ahead. Better than you assuming what shows her, right?

I think she's saying a lot of stuff in an effort to be honest with herself. She's a serial cheater, can't be alone, makes choices based on her feelings, twists things to suit her beliefs rather than changing them...she knows what she does, just not why, or that she doesn't have to choose to be this way.

When she says, "My feelings haven't come back for you," you answered well with it takes time. Don't forget to always tag it with, "I don't believe your feelings can come back as long as you are in contact with OM in any way and not making a decision to work on our marriage. When that happens, I believe we can both have our feelings back fully, even better than before."

"Im so sick of being at her beckon call I could just scream" You are not at her beckon call, WA. You are attempting to meet her ENs without LBs. Please don't LB yourself. You choose to make dinner, serve her, pick up her plate, and do all those things. You do it because you want to--if you are doing it so you can resent she does nothing (because she's having an A), then that's why you do it. Choose, WA.

You are mature beyond your years in attempting to save your marriage. Your wife isn't. She is acknowledging her shortcomings, saying why? Why are you doing this when usually I get dumped? She doesn't have the expectations of marriage you have or herself. She really does need individual counseling to understand love, what it is, and that it doesn't run in fear or attack in anger. It is. You are showing her love. She's really uncomfortable with it. Act from your beliefs and be true to yourself.

For what it's worth--I was exactly like your wife. I didn't marry until 27, but I held those inner beliefs until I was 42...I believe you are amazing enough to show her who you are and what you believe and make a difference in your life (and hers) and your marriage. Your decision. I totally understand and support whatever you choose.

LA

Im tring not to answer her fog. I have to say something otherwise she blows up and says Im not listening. I try to say the right things to not LB and stuff but sometimes I just crack under the pressure.

I know right now that my marriage and family are what I want. Im having a hard time once again being the only one that wants this. I understand telling her that she was the one that was tired was wrong and I realized it as I was saying it. I don't know. I/ve been trying hard to be the man I want and need to be for her but I just feel like she hasn't noticed me and the changes I've been making.

I went home for dinner today. She has the day off but I brought pumkin to daycare. sad huh. W went shopping and showed up at home while I was on dinner. I was laying on the bed thinking about life when she came in. She modeled all her new jeans and other things she got for me. I could tell she was really happy. She then changed and said she was going to go clean her car.(Wonder if she knew what I wanted to put on it?) I said K bye. she walked out the room and then a couple seconds later she came back in and layed down beside me. didn't touch me though just laid down. What are you doin she said. me just laying here. she feels kinda good huh. me yeah. I tried to grab her hand and she just pulled it away. so i said well time for me to go back to work. i got up and walked out the door. She WA arent you going to come give me a hug. I went back in and gave her a hug and a kiss on the forehead. heaven forbid I try to kiss her on the lips. Those aren't mine! then she said I'll call you. I said Ill be waiting.

Well she is at the bar now with a friend and a co-worker. I guess, thats what she tells me anyway!

I know there is nothing I can do to get her to go to counseling but I really think it would do her some good. She says she loves me but she is not IN love with me. Doesn't this really mean I care about you im just not excited about you? I really think she doesn't know what love is. How can you have two different kind of loves? I don't know. She such a smart women I just still can't believe this is happening to us. I wish there was something I could do to get her excited about me again.

I guess I should just stop wishing and keep trying to be the man I need to be and maybe someday she'll notice.

I hear ya on the whole sex arena thing. I want her to feel accepted by me and maybe by telling her no the next time she comes on to me she'll either go get it from someone else or she'll respect me for taking a stand to her and letting her know that it will not happen until ALL contact is dropped and she has committed to our marriage. Good Idea. That will be hard for me to do but i think IF it ever happens again I could do it. Worth a try.

Thanks LA

Well, we see your changes, your effort, the new man you are. We want you to save your marriage, too. You're not alone in this. You are recognized here for your patience, pain, triumphs and where you fell short.

That you know what you said when you might not have--that's progress. You do it time and time again. You're learning. You don't just grow overnight. And you're getting there. You really are.

Did you finish exposing?

The ILYBNILWY speech isn't about you not being exciting...it is about her own issues inside that she hasn't dealt with. Not about you--her. Not about you--her. You aren't that in love with her, but you know you love her with all your heart and want to spend your life with her. You don't live by your feelings--which change every day because they are information on your beliefs...so your love makes itself known more in you. She doesn't. Anger could mean the opposite of love to her; resentment, frustration, entitlement and lack of respect are things she chooses her actions on...not examining the beliefs behind them.

She can get there, too. But there's the difference, I believe.

Do you have anyone to follow her and make sure she is where she says she is? I don't like you not knowing the truth. Did you say OM had moved on and started a new relationship? Where are you on the whole no contact but no recommitment thing?

I don't mean any disrespect...I'm tired and confused. Not you--me!

LA

Well last night was yet another experiance I would like to pt behind us. I went to her dads and talked to him and W step mom and told them what was going on. I told themthat I still respect them for what they do and that they have to help there daughter. Her dad I think is taking it very hard. She is his favorite. Then on the way home from there I called her mom and told her. Ya know everyone I've told said they figured something was goin on but they were sorry for what happened. I guess it wasn't such a secret after all.

My W didn't come home until 330 again last night. I asked her this morning where she was and who she was with and she said she was just riding around with her friend. Then I presented her with a napkin I found on the floor with directions to someones house. Off the handle she goes. I have no idea where that came from! its probably been in my jacket for weeks. I know it hasn't been I keep checking her pockets. she doesn't know that but anyway. So she left pist off. I then got a text from her saying that she cant take this ****** anymore and I can stay home and pac my bags. I love my girl to much to put her through this ******!
me you cant take what anymore. staying out till 330 with other guys. having the day off work and not spending one minute of it with your lil girl, or spending more time with your friends rather than your family?
she Im sure you can find a nice apartment. leave and dont even think your takin my baby.
me im not the one that wants to leave and baby will be staying here at home with me.

Man I just dont know anymore I think this time it might really be the end. We'll see.

I need to find someone to follow her I know. According to W OM did start a new relationship. But after last night I believe they are still together!

I stuck.

(((((WA)))))

Apparently, this is a good sign. Believe it or not. From what CarenMc says, hostility from WS means you're gettin' to them. I had a lot from my WH, in flashes and then silence. She may very well be right. Take this as a good sign. You are doing great.

You exposed!!! That's great. I know how hard that was for you, but you did it!!! Now, expose to OM, his parents, his new GF...keep this going, as soon as you can.

You do need someone to follow and document. You need to record her taking a day off to stay at home without pumpkin and the hours she comes home. Keep a journal away from the house...at work...and keep recording.

I checked pockets, too...car, shoes, pants...you name it. You're not alone or nuts. I'm so glad you know what you know...the lies can push you to doubt yourself--push back. Just like you did.

Call your family about needing help with following--either a PI or friends of siblings can do the work. Lean on them. Send a thank you note to inlaws saying how much you appreciate them listening and their compassion. Ask for more. Ask FIL to speak with wife every day on the phone, short calls, about his beliefs and how he sees things. MIL, too.

I dunno...reaching, aren't I? I still would. I emailed my MIL when I thought my WH was going to choose between me and OW and begged her to call him. Well, she just doesn't meddle in her children's marriages, you know...we were adults and could handle it. Yes, MIL, we were adults, acting like children in desperate need of guidance. Balls of pain and confusion. Oh, well, WA...sorry to run off into memories. I ended my relationship with her, but that isn't a loss to me.

Did you already do the research on legal seperation and custody? I forgot. I'm sorry. Thought of it too late to look it up in your post. When threats are thrown at you, I want you to have knowledge to withstand it. "I don't do leaving; I do marriage rebuilding" is great. When it comes to her attempting to throw you out, legal knowledge works, too. "The only way to save our marriage may be to seperate. By state law, you're in an adulterous relationship so I get temporary and immediate custody with residence if I file. I'm willing to do that to save my love and our marriage."

Just thought of one more thing...she doesn't seem happy, you know. Lost and miserable. Her drug isn't making her happy, nor her new way of life. "I don't want to disrespect you, but are you okay? You don't seem happy like I remember you being before."

You have us and them and yours and friends...you can do this!! You keep doing so well, so thoughtful, introspective and thorough. Are you being yourself 100%? Your new and improved self? How are you feeling about you?

LA

Honestly I feel like such a pile of you know what. I've really been havin a hard time this week. I see my dad so broken and then I see and hear my IL in so much sadness. I really have been thinkin about when to end this lately. Now that I have Plan A into the swing of things I think thats something I have to take a look at. I really hope thats true about her being hostile to me. I really hope Im starting to get through to her.

I still don't think she is tellin the truth about last night. Ah ****** who am I kiddin she wont tell me the truth. I just want the truth. To much to ask of a WW though I guess. Her story just clashes too much and Im trying to point out to her the things that she has said that are colliding with eachother and it seems to be pissing her off even more!

I think Im starting to lose myself again. I just sit down sometimes and cry I don't know why b/c I know she won't tell me the truth anyway and thats all I want from her.

Like she said this morning if this is how its going to be Im f-ing done.
Me like what me asking where you've been and who you where with. yes thats how its going to be until you decide to take the step towards me trusting you and your actions again.
she You'll never f-ing trust me again you always call me and bother me constantly!
me I called you twice and you asked that I call you one of those times. I haven't seen anything that you've done to make start trusting you.

I have a record of all her actions and times spent with pumkin and without and when she leaves gets home you know I have it all down. sounds like you are really suggesting maybe I go see someone about the seperation laws and that. Do I file for legal custody now that way I have filed first if she decides to go for the divorce. I guess these probably would be questions for them huh. I really have to have my poop in a group with this woman b/c she can be a real B>>>> and she is very smart.

LA don't feel bad for relating to what happened in your situation I actually get alot out of those little "Spill the beans" moments.

well I figured out this morning that the napkin I found with directions on it is to OM new place. So I know now that that is where she was until 330 in the morning the other night.

Hey atleast shes not going home with a different guy. Its the same one. The a plus huh. still bothers me terrible though.

I had counseling last night. He suggested give it two more weeks and then I should go get a lawyer and file. If that doesn't wake her up then its over I guess. Im not sure right now if I will do that but I know to that I cant keep watchin her do this. He said to that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I understand that. But on the same hand right now I feel like i'll lose everything. My family the love of my life and the things we've worked together for. He said your losing her right now anyway thats just the facts. I know you love her WA I know that I just want to tell you what I've experienced. You cant keep going like this to long. Your a good catch for someone. You know that. She knows that. she just wants her cake and eat it to.

Yesterday She said she would try for awhile longer for pumkins sake. I said give me and your family a 100 percent of you and I believe you'll be happy here with us. Last night she made supper and had it all dished out and ready on the table when I got back from counseling. I told her this is really nice thanks W. she yeah didn't really seem excited about being with all of us. we ate and I said well I'll clean everything up W you can go watch tv or whatever. she I can do it. me I know but you made its only fair I clean it up it was very good. thanks. she thanks WA. me no problem. After I got done with that she was layin on the couch and told me to come lay by her so I laid down by her.

I don't know I feel like Im putting myself in a position thats never going to change. I was reading somewhere that almost 80% of WHs go back to there wives and I forget what the percentage was but it isn't even close for WWs. I know there is still a chance but I just cant get me to feel good about us ever getting out of this rut. I don't want a divorce but maybe I have to go file for full custody alimony, child support and support for bills and basically show her what she has to lose before she will say Hey what the he11 am I doin. I dont know.

Hope eveyone has a good weekend.

"He said your losing her right now anyway thats just the facts."

I say, get a new counselor. Jeesh. You're losing her? He's telling you that marriage is winning others over, against their will, their choices.

:::::

Yes, Plan B might be coming up. You haven't done enough exposure for Plan A...so late with just now telling her family, am I right? OM has new pad? Expose to his employer. All of her friends (including the one who came up to you while you were out and didn't know about her affair). Give the best Plan A before you go to Plan B, which is the cake-eater ender, as well as the reality dunk.

My concern is that you're still focused on her moods, words, gestures, etc. Your own are what matter.

Clean up after dinner...why not do it together? Opportunities for stating your thoughts and feelings. "I enjoy you."

Loving presence, WA. That's what the he11 you're doin'. Learning openness, honesty, and not to react but to choose your actions.

Hang in and hang on. Still with you.

LA