Cherished, I hope I did not say anything to upset you. Certainly not my intentions at all. I was just trying to give you MY perspective on the abuse I suffered in my M and some of my thoughts on forgiveness.... Take what you want and discard the rest.. I hope I did not offend you !!!

FH - No offense here either, but I do believe in the Lord's Prayer as I quoted above. I think it is pretty self explanatory. Granted I am not in any way, an expert on the Bible or the Catholic Church.

I was just under the impression that this was "Word of God" I could be totally wrong here, and probably am.. but I do believe that you will be forgiven as you forgive !! Seems pretty simple to me....

Once again, I am not trying to offend or argue with anyone here. Not my style. I am just replying in kind the way I see the above.

Respectfully yours, carnation

cherished

myself & my husband & kids are Catholic, for long not very good ones I admit, but I returned to the church after my affair. I was pretty lost and and luckily our local arch bishop was a family friend who help me a lot.
I know most would not have been so blessed I was lucky.

its not the message that is in error but many of the message givers.
Lets face it, most priests live a sheltered isolated life for many years even today and lack the knowldge & experience of betrayal at so intimate a level. Not that they cannot learn about it like many cousellors but many are simply not trained to that extent but rather general couselling because that is the main need they have.
Yes it is simplistic to say 'you must forgive' end of story.

Forgiveness Cherished .. yes that’s a biggy in our faith.
In the Catholic Church though my Husband may ‘forgive’ me, it is also required for the Church to grant me absolution.
Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Catholic Church.
The Church teaches that there is NO sin that our Lord will not forgive.
But its not a free ride either.

Absolution proper is that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, he frees man from sin. It presupposes on the part of the penitent, contrition, confession, and promise at least of satisfaction.

That you forgive does not mean that the penitent should not face the consequences of their actions.
You may wish to go to a web site I use at times as its very useful to ask awkward questions .. not that I particularly like all the answers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ask A Franciscan

Carnation2 - I am in complete agreement with you that it is the Word of God and I take no offense in discussing God's Word. The "problem" often lies in the selective way in which parts of the Word are used, much like Satan uses parts of the truth but applies it out of context of the whole.

What happens here in some interpretations of the Lord's Prayer is just such a "misapplication." Think of it this way, Christ gave BOTH to us....the Lord's Prayer AND the instruction to Peter on HOW and WHEN to forgive a sinner (especially a 'brother' who has sinned against us).

Since BOTH instructions came from the Son of God Himself, BOTH must be correct and IN CONCERT with each other.

"...as we forgive others (who have sinned against us)."
"...if a brother sins against you and repents, and comes to you asking you to forgive him, forgive him."

God forgives US our sins WHEN we repent and accept Christ, not before.

God IS the model and Christ as told us that we are NOT to "unforgiving" of someone who has REPENTED. God forgives US when we repent and we are to the same. At the same time, do NOT confuse forgiveness with "absolution" of consequences.

God bless.

what is a MBW?

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Cherished ~ you do realize that there is nothing in the Catholic faith that says forgiveness = staying in harms way?

You can forgive an abuser...even while removing yourself from harms way.

FH - I believe in my first post to Cherished I said that she could/should forgive her CH IF he was sorry. So, I see that we are in complete agreement. insert smiley face here

best to you, carnation

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This has been a very enlightening thread. My inlaws are extremely Catholics. I have had a dificult time understanding their brand of unconditional love. They seem to chastise me for "duh" things. They don't seem to understand why I would be angry, why I shouldn't give unconditional love and why can't I accept and wait out the CH situation. This thread has helped me see where they may be coming from.

In our case, I see a definite gender or perhaps "not being of the blood" skew. I'm expected to make the sacrifice of not LB or telling the truth. I feel that my inlaws think it should be peace at any price...as long as I pay the price. The fact that their son is in a long term affair, plays with our money, never see his children and has separated himself never comes into play. They don't even want to talk to him about it.

You would think that expectations that CH not seeing OW, apologizing and working on our marriage would fall into the sacrifice department. I don't see my inlaws asking their son to make this sacrifice. I find it very confusing.

Still I appreciate the trouble people have gone to to explain the Catholic line of thinking. How does it play into denial? Is that part of the church line too?

Catholics are just as dysfunctional as the next person.

The Catholic church itself doesnt promote denial, but boy oh boy do I see it practiced amongst Catholics.

I expect that they are no worse nor better than anyone else.

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Cherished, I am really worried about you. When I read your posts, especially the last one, I feel...sad? angry? a need to ask what are you thinking or give you a good shaking?

Warning: This thread has made me very aware that I can never walk the Catholic walk. The version of conditional love and sacrific that they roll out just doesn't seem logical. Their interpretation of God's word, and it is an interpretation, places an enormous burden on you.

To me, the sacrifice they seem to ask for is giving and giving and giving until you are all used up. Maybe that works for a Jesuit priest but it doesn't work for a mother of 4 children. You are responsible for more than yourself. If you are living a good, productive life, raising decent children, that's plenty of sacrifice. In my eye, your H has sacrificed your love and his family. Do you all go down with the ship?

I have never gotten the "beam in your eye" quote. How a WS can critize a BS for selfishness and not sacrificing is ridiculous. Seems more like a baby tantrum.

I believe God put us on this earth to be productive, happy people. God gave us the gift of laughing and smiling. Biologically, we feel better when we laugh and love and are happy. And yes, crying makes us feel better too but not if we do it all day.

There is an enormous difference between sacrificing and being a martyr. In the end, it is your choice. Just as much as it is your H's choice to be an abuser and an adulter. I do not believe that God wants people trapped in loveless marriages. Do you not deserve the love of a decent man? Do you not deserve a life without fear? I think you've built enough character.

Thank you God for letting me be raised a Methodist.

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I am so glad I took at look at the Catholic Online Forum. It has been very enlightening. I have to say that I just don't get it. On the thread you mentioned (or the new one), there seem to be a lot of people talking about marriage from theorical standpoint. They don't sound like they've really been in the trenches.

The basic point seems be that you should marry well and with care. I think that's wonderful but if you've been married as long as I have, there's a lot of water under the bridge. I was married in a Catholic church and we talked to a priest. At that time, he didn't raise issues like this. Would I have done differently at age 21 if given different advice?

The forum repliers don't seem to take this beyond the spit in the sink stage. What about dealing with a spouse who has broken their marriage contract? Was the word adultery ever mentioned? What about abuse?

I thought the whole forum was rather telling. The specific commandment to not couch anything in personal terms: my husband, my mother-in-law, seemed kind of funny. Everybody is allowed to have their good name even if they do bad things.

It brought to mind the movie The Godfather. All the guys were good Catholics but did bad things. Did the Church ever tell them they were doing bad things? I remember the scenes of the wives going to mass after mass to save their husbands' souls.

I find it weird to have guys who aren't allowed to marry, aren't suppose to have sex and don't have children to have so much say in each of those areas.

I just agree to disagree with the Catholic Church. Thanks for the insight.

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So Cherished, do you feel you are now in a marriage that is not an offense to your dignity? What are you getting from your religion? Just wondering...

Who came up with that term, disinterested love? Lots of cheating spouses have disinterested love; they aren't interested at all. Would that be "ILYBINILWY"? I really believe that POJA is the most sensible way to go.

I was thinking about the golf analogy. H wants to go golfing but W doesn't want him to. Would mutual submission mean that nobody golfs? Does the family move as a troop?

Is H selfish because he wants to do an activity that takes him away from his wife and family? Is W selfish because she won't let her H do something he enjoys doing? What if H says it's really good exercise? What if W says why don't you exercise with me or golf with me? Is it selfish of her to take away his "manly" time? What if H says that when he golfs he makes profitable business contacts? Is he still selfish for staying away from his family? Is his family selfish for wanting him with them when he could be out earning more for the family?

Whose calling the shots on selfish especially when people dreg up biblical passages that men are suppose to be the head of family? How do you keep the balance of power equal enough for it all to work? Where is the opportunity for discussion? How can you make it work without discussing?

grapegirl,

Your in-laws are wrong to make demands of you with no accountability for their son, and I don't think it's a Catholic thing. Many parents are this way about their adult children regardless of religion!! I can understand how it would "sour" you, though, and I'm sorry.

I agree with BrambleRose, that there are as many types of Catholics as anyone else, dysfunctional and otherwise. While I feel terribly for people who get mis-information or abuse within the Church (or use it as an excuse for sin!), to assume that is the norm is just *wrong*. You will never find a "perfect" church anywhere because churches are made up of imperfect people! Abuse and bad advice happen everywhere (in and out of all churches), as do virtues and love and accountability.

My choice to be Catholic is based on history, apologetics, and my own relationship w/God, not on the average people therein. Ironically, it was my husband's adultery that turned my heart to the 10 Commandments (was already on my way to Jesus) and made me want to join a Christian church.

Dr. Harley's principles and policies for a good marriage would solve the golf thing well. Mutual love and respect IS Godly.

My 2c,
J

Hi Cherished,

Last night I posted something about RETROUVAILLE program. I haven't really gotten alot of responses but from what I did get seems this program may help. Yet I am apprehensive about the whole thing I guess... Fear of the unknown I think it is.
Anyway, what I would like to say is maybe you and your H should try this out. I cannot even say that I have been through it yet to let you know how it is but I was thinking if your kids are in C. school, maybe your H. has some sort of connection with the Church and its teachings since he is forking the $ every month to keep the kids in C. school. Maybe he would be receptive to going tothis program.
From what I understand it is NOT marriage encounter. It is rather, a series of talks and seminars that are given by regular couples who have been in troubled marriages such as we are right now. Anyone I ever brought it up to had nothing but good things to say about it. They also welcome non-catholics.
Someone told me it is where they help you with communication techniques between you and your spouse (which couldn't hurt in my case). Maybe that's what this is all about, I don't know. Maybe you should think about going to your parish priest or even just going to the R website or the site of your diocese and finding more about it, that's all I am saying, at least maybe this gives us another option or opinion or answer while sometimes I feel we as BS's grasp at straws.....
Thanks for letting me vent.... take care of yourself and good luck to you.
(P.S. .. if you want. let me know and I will let you know how it was after I go through the first part of it this weekend....)
RB

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