Bramble Rose said:

It also requires the WS to shape up, grow up, and recognize their own weaknesses, and take steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again (ie protect the BS).

Its the personal recovery of the WS that drives the recovery.

I think that it s the personal recovery of the BS which initiates the recovery of a marriage damaged by an affair. The WS must ultimately "buy in" to the recovery process though their own self healing and self-improvement efforts.

Both parties need to assume their fair share of the load for the long haul, in order to achieve a successful recovery.

JMHO
SD

(with all due respect, Bramble Rose, I love your posts)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Has no one read what I wrote?

Jen - I read it. I have grown tremendously. Whether my M continues or dissolves, I am a better father, a better man, and potentially a better husband should I ever choose that path again.

So - whether a M survives or goes away - you are right. We all have great potential to become better people because of the A.

far

kiwi... I read it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And, I'm gonna add that it is the personal recovery of BOTH parties that ensures the marriage keeps on keeping on.

And, yep, there are gonna be hiccups. One or both get into 'selfish' mode.

I went through all the trials and tribulations of cancer last year. Meet H's ENs. HA. Double HA! In fact, I'm quite sure I was guilty of several lovebusters to boot.

But, we have learned a lot. H has grown tremendously and actually verbalized that he is a 'recovering selfish person.' LOL.

So, if you recover your marriage and BOTH parties work towards INDIVIDUAL & PERSONAL growth while working towards MARITAL health, what you have is really something special.

Cali

FAR, I certainly didn't mean we are better people because of the A. Heaven forbid! Is that how my post reads? I wish the A had never happened, I wish we'd found out about ourselves well before the A.

I wish I'd learned about myself without having to go through all this.

But, we did go through it, I can't change that even though I'd give anything to be able to. I'll stand by what I said, at least I've learned and grown and we have both learned to nurture our marriage and each other.

Jen - But HOW does a case like yours happen? You got back with your husband, and realized that you made a mistake. How much counseling did the two of you do?

Jen,
I read the post from you actually 3 times. Processing and still being rather new BS, being doubtful at the same time.

I agree with found. My FWHs A has taught me many things. Some good, some bad. I have grown more this past 9 months than I ever thought was possible. I am a new person. I like who I am. I will not go back to the old marriage. It does take both parties. But the A also forever will be part of me, not by my choice, but his. I remember a post from BobPure, talking about this same thing. I didnt get it then, but do now. I am a repaired machine. I was broken by his A, regardless of the outcome it will always be there.
Regardless of the outcome, if we do R, he still was unfaithful, he has that tendency. I was forced to become a better person. I did not choose that. But I made the changes within me, for me and the kids.
He has told me that it was not about the needs. It was about him, his ego, his masculinity, his need to see if he still had it in him, kinda like a conquest thing that alot of guys do. That is not something, no matter how hard I try and how well I fill his needs, that I have any control over.
I just have to take his word that he will never do it again.

I think that maybe another issue is (I hate getting into this one) there seems to be a difference in whether you are a FWW or a FWH. Maybe not, but from my personal experience and my opinion I see it that way at this point.

Jen you have made the changes, as your BH has too. But does he ever have doubts?
JE

Interesting that you think there is a difference between a FWW and FHW. I do too.

I really do see it. I see the recovery with the FWWs like Jen..love ya hon...
But with the FWH it is just soo different.
Programming, being from mars, not sure but I do see a difference. I want my FWH to be like a Jen, but in truth he never will be.
Hmmmm
JE

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

B, I realised something wonderful after I'd written my post. It's the first time I haven't rewritten the history of my marriage. I said we loved each other, I thought we could cope. I don't know if you know what that means to me. Even after all this time.

We had about 6 months of counselling. B, I didn't come rushing back to my marriage, realising I made a mistake. I thought I should try everything I could because we had been married 28 years and I owed my H and my marriage that. But I wasn't very optimistic.

JE, I'm sure he still has doubts. I see it quite often in his face. I still give very detailed outlines of where I'll be and who I'll be with and make sure he can verify that. I don't think that will ever really go away.

Jen,
If that will always be there, the doubt...ie IMO lack of trust... what then? Will it not get old for you to have him looking over your shoulder for the rest of your M? Will it not get old for him to know that he will always have those doubts? I think that is part of what believer may have been asking. What do you have? Doubts?
JE

Jen - You are an inspiration. Whenever I post to people about wonderful a marriage can be after an A, I think of you and AW.

What do you have?

Definitely not the same H that he was prior to his A...

He is like a reformed smoker..

Embarassed about having had an A.. adamant about how it is WRONG to get needs met outside the marriage... clear and open about saying what he did was wrong...dislikes infidelity...A TRULY CHANGED MAN...

OUR MARRIAGE IS BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE....

I have lots to say about this but not much time right now...

BUT I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH BR...

Recovery has been harder than any thing that I have ever done BUT yet the BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME....AND OUR MARRIAGE!!!

Unfortunate that it took an affair. My wife deciding that the M was not going to work.

But, yes. I am a better man, because of the affair. I do not know how I would have grown like I have without it. I wish God had beaten me with a 2x4, and brought me around before she decided it was over.

Our final hearing is on Tuesday. And she has shown signs of wanting recovery just this last week. And signs of frustration with who I am, which is what she says she is running from. If this is the beginning of recovery - I do not think I have it in me. I am burned freaking out. Tiny little threads keep me wishing for the M to survive. And they are snapping, fast.

I look forward to peace, and, quite frankly, I do not think I will get that any time soon if we go into recovery.

But I am a better man.

(because of the guidance of ALL OF YOU, I might add)

far

I read the beginnings of this thread...and all of the concerns were MY concerns.

My Xwh..when he was just a WH said adamately that he wanted more of his needs met.

ABOUT A THOUSAND OF MY EN'S WERE NOT MET.

I came to him with the needs questionairre. And he was all about saying "Yea Peach...YOU'RE RIGHT...YOU DIDN'T MEET ALL MY NEEDS>"

His needs were NOT REAL ONES. It was like he was making them up as we went along. He suddenly announced to me about 3 mos. into the affair "well one need of mine is for your to be smaller. I mean, you were 15 lbs lighter when we married."

it carried on. stuff like that.

It became during plan A me breaking my neck and back to meet his EN's and turn H away from the A.

it was morphing every day into something diferent about him. different need. And MOST IMPORTANTLY..FINDING A DIFFERENT DEFICIENCY TO PLACE ME UNDER MICROSCOPE ABOUT.

HE WAS THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEMS.

MY NEEDS NEVER GOT MET during last 3 years of my marriage.

Now?

He is in an affair marriage. And once again, his AFFAIR WIFE confided in me this last summer that she has done everything she can...and he will not be faithful or kind or supportive...blah blah blah.

It's history repeating itself.

SOME PEOPLE ARE TAKERS. PERIOD. AND CAN NEVER GIVE.

If you recover your marriage, IT IS BECAUSE BOTH PARTIES CHOSE TO MAKE IT A PRIORITY...

Recovery can be initiated by ONE, as in one of the partners finding MB and applying principles to begin the ending of the affair, but IN THE END, BOTH PARTIES HAVE TO WORK AT IT.

What did I have? I got a false recovery from him...more lies and underground affair stuff. I got situationally depressed...and had to go to counseling for almost a year to reclaim my old self again...the "post affair and bashing" of me self that my xh so happily did. He pretended to go along with MB. He pretended he was not talking to OW...that they were done. He pretended well for a half year. And I plan A'd my [censored] off.

When I got to plan B...I was plum tuckered out..

now? I am still a giver..when it comes to ds and friends and family...in dating, I'd like to see how the role of taker sounds...a kind and gentle taker mind you...for a short while. Time to have a bit about me. Except for the being a mom and friend and daughter and sister part.

Mimi - Hope you get time to let us know more.

FAR - I know exactly how you feel. I didn't recover my marriage, and all of my days are happy now. And there is nothing really special going on in my life. I think it is mainly not having to think about the affair anymore, just being done with it.

The hardest part for me is to get my WW to get to wanting to try again. She has seen some the changes in me meeting her ENs and she knows the kids and our families/friends would be devastated by a D. She knows I'm in it 'till the fat lady sings'. Now it is just up to her...

i've read posts from many people here who feel they have been blessed with a better marraige since recovery...maybe because both people value what they almost lost and have grown and learned from the mistakes of the past

Believer, you said:



I think this is way TOO SIMPLISTIC. This sounds too BEHAVIORALLy-FOCUSED. For my FWH, EMOTIONAL PAIN was involved. He was EMOTIONALLY HUNGRY, NEEDY. He came upon an antidepressant..A MOOD ALTERER..He is one of the ones who ACTUALLY BECAME ADDICTED to the FEELING that he got from the Affair. He actually became HIGH when he was with her. His HUNGRINESS made him VULNERABLE. The FEELING resulted in him becoming HOOKED...



Also..too simplistic...I don't attribute OUR RECOVERY to me "meeting his needs like crazy". FIRST, PLAN A..a long, difficult process AND then PLAN B..we know how difficult that is. PLAN A plus PLAN B then RECOVERY... A PACKAGE DEAL..BOTH PLANS are a LIVING ******.....



NO..as I said before..my H is no longer the same..I am no longer the same..the marriage is no longer the same..THIS PROCESS which includes THE AFFAIR, PLAN A and PLAN B has changed OUR LIVES FOREVER AND EVER...

Plus, I don't see my H as having a character flaw..he was totally OUT OF CHARACTER..AN ALIEN...when he was a WS..for most of his life and our married life..he was the MODEL SON, HUSBAND, FATHER, CITIZEN..your BASIC GOOD GUY...

Even during his A, he considered what he was doing as being "WRONG"..that was the value of bringing the A out into the light because then he felt even more EMBARASSED by what he was doing...he remains EMBARASSED and unfortunately continues to AVOID many people..wants to move away to another city....

As I said before, my H TODAY would probably agree with everything that you are saying...

I hear him spouting off about how DISGUSTING WSes are..almost seeming to forget now that he used to be one of those..I am shocked and amazed...

Maybe that is one of his ways of dealing with himself...and what he did..

I know he continues to be pained by it all..gets teary about it often..I can tell when he goes to that place...

I take his hand and pat it....