That was so me Jen. I had a major life changing surgery at 27...H lost his business that his best friend was taking from him and was loosing thatfrienship. he had ALWAYS been there for me, needed me, leaded me, comforted me - he wasn't during my recovery and depression from this surgery. And did I think about what he was going through? and his depression? Nope - it was all about what he wasn't do for me at that time.

It's why I believe it's not all about the BS's working hard, and why WS's who just chalk it up to needs not being met are in for trouble down the road.

For me it was poor coping skills...since which I have changed, practiced and made into mantras...and given to God. So that if this happens again ever - him not being there for me when I need him to be - I can handle it - and even be there for HIM!

Jean said this:



I think this describes what happened to my H during PLAN B. He hit a "SPIRITUAL BOTTOM". I get the sense that he felt close to the pits of HE// and never wants to get that close again....

Dorry - You are another one of the ones that I look up to.
I know that people change. I've seen it here.

When you hear Mimi talk about her husband, it is almost unbelievable.

Just Empty, you asked:



What I've learned is that this is the way a marriage is supposed to be TRANSPARENT...

My FWH is like Jen...informing me of his whereabouts..without me even asking...he SEEMS TO LIKE AND WANTS TO DO THIS...

It seems like a POSITIVE THING for him..makes him feel CONNECTED to me in a positive way..

So I've stopped regarding it as being due to the Affair...I've become accustomed to this as being a part of OUR MARRIAGE..

WE ARE INTIMATE..CLOSELY CONNECTED...

Mimi, I agree, I WANT to do this. It's not because I HAVE to.

JE, I don't feel he's looking over my shoulder. He never mentions his doubts, he could have them the rest of his life, I don't know. My A shocked his belief in the world, I don't know if you ever get over that.

When I think how far we've come in terms of recovery over 2 years, I imagine we'll go even further (in a good way)as time goes by.

Believer:

This is SOOO TRUE!! I am honestly AMAZED on a daily basis!!!

But, keep in mind, our Recovery began over two years ago...

IT'S BEEN A LONG HARD ROAD....


Lots of hard work..SOUL SEARCHING..PRACTICE...FORGIVENESS..ACCEPTANCE...

Okay, Believer, I haven't recovered my marriage. When our home sells, it will be final. But I wanted to add to your thread if I might. I've posted some of these musings here and there before, but think they might be appropriate here.

I wonder the same thing. And I wonder if the ones that are recovered, are the following:

1) ones where before the a, the WS was a pretty upright guy in general--aka--fairly giving in the area of EA's, kind, etc. The whole out-of-character speal.

2) ones where once the A was discovered, confessed, repented, and walked away without much prodding from the BS. Not much fence sitting and cake-eating, so to say. I'm not saying they had no withdrawal; I am saying they didn't make the BS think they had to think about which person they wanted.

3)ones who didn't totally blame the BS for leaving/having an A. (i.e My WH says it's all me still--all b/c I didn't kiss enough!!! Forget that SF, though iniated by him, was 3-4 X's/week.)

See, with my sitch, my WH, according to a proffesional, is a classic narcissist. He still, after all this time, can only focus on how his bad choices have caused him to have pain. He cannot even see my pain. I read many posts where the WS at leasts tries to protect the BS from the pain. my WS says it pales in comparison to his.

Pre-A, in retrospect, I was in a marriage like Justpeachy. My WH was meeting hardly any of my needs, but I was content to continue to meet his. He had one little complaint (though he has since managed to make it many) and he left. He wasn't the man I thought I had married. He had started getting more and more self-focused. EVERYTHING was situated around him. He had many innapropriate friendships, and discounted totally my concern about them. I could go on and on...

I also gave him and OW a letter, saying I wanted my M to work. That I forgave him, and would take him back (he walked out--I didn't kick him out). And still, he said no. Only recently, when he's having OW trouble, does he make any mention of coming back, and now, as he put it, his offer is only going to be on the table so long.

Dear God I didn't mean to ramble on so much... I just wondered about the M's that are recovered.

But to answer your question, I don't know. I think I'd have so much doubt. I'm "stained" so to say on the innocence I thought my marriage had. As I've said before, we were virgins when we married, so I think I'd have mega trouble in the SF area. Mega trouble.

I do, though, think that if TRULY repentant, and WS could recover. But that's gonna take a heck of a lot more than you or me meeting theie EN's--it is a change that is in their heart and between them and God.

I tend to think there is a reason God gives a BS permission to divorce. He knows the trials. I read on another post here that only God can give unconditional love--we can't. If we did, we'd be setting ourselves up for abuse--sure, WH, have all the affairs you want and maybe give me a STD, I'll still love you unconditionally. That is part of why God says it's okay, I think--because he knows we are not Him.

Believer, I don't know your whole story yet (you're gonna post it to me some time, remember?) but I think in your sitch, and sadly to say even in mine, it's okay to release them over to God, so to say. God still wants to do a work in their lives and bring them back to Him. The hardest part of love IS letting go.

Okay, long post over. Ignore if you'd like. I got five hours sleep last night for the first time with this baby and I have energy! Woo-hoo!

InTexas all the recovered FWSs who have responded to this thread have been women.

No, I certainly didn't repent and rush back to my marriage. Quite the opposite. I couldn't see it had a hope but was willing to give it a try. I never left physically but, oh boy, I sure wasn't there mentally.

No, I didn't leave the OM without a backward glance. I was a total pain in the [censored] with my withdrawal for MONTHS.

Yes, I said to my H that my pain was worse than his. (cringe - a totally WW thing to say and said by most WSs).

Yes, my sister in law said to me "am I reading you right. You are BLAMING your H for your A."

I also said "the OM has my heart but we can stay married. It doesn't matter if I don't love you, does it?"

Do you know what it's like remembering these things? It's horrible, it's embarrassing, it's ridiculous, it's unbelievable that I was that person.

It's all very common in the early stages after d-day for the WS to come out with the most incredibly STUPID statements.

Intexas, I read your post and my questions reflect there so much. My H has been having an A for 3 years. Imagine all the lies that were necessary to keep this up.

ALthough I see my part, to meet his EN, he does not seem committed at all to undergo a major change to win me back. And I am afraid that when he wakes up, I will be so hurt that it will be too late.

Believer-

I have admittedly not read this whole thread....but the way you worded the title made me think of a song lyric.......

"Work your fingers to the bone what do you get??? Boney fingers!!"

LMAO!!!

Seriously though, I think that once a WS is past the *A*, and the marriage has been repaired, I think they see the damage they've done, and hopefully don't go repeating the mistakes.

I think that a lot of the relationships were on life support before the *A* ever began......people get comfortable in their marriage....and before all this happened I would have thought *DANG!!! I've earned the right to be comfortable!!* but now I see marriage as a work in progress....never finished, there's always something to do. It's WORK.......

Well that's just my 2 cents.

God Bless,

-Caren

I, too, have had the same thoughts and fears.

My WW has had two affairs in five years -- admittedly, we didn't follow the proper recovery path the first time.

She seems to be coming around -- claims she loves me, is physically involved in the marriage (touching, hugging and intimate), and says she plans to stay.

But stay for what? We are just starting on the road to recovery after some bitter days/weeks of confrontation and me spending a night in a hotel in my own town for the first time after 18 years of marriage (I've never even slept on the couch before).

I do love my wife, our children and our marriage. But, currently, I don't trust her. I still check her voice mail, email accounts and track her travel (without her knowledge) to see if she's remaining true to her word.

I'm worried that, despite a "recovery" of the marriage, my fears and lack of trust in her and her resentment over me "spying" on her will always fester in the background and form a sort of callous between us that will prevent us from ever really achieving true recovery.

How do you ensure that while all is forgiven but not forgotten that it doesn't cloud or color your future together?

ok---i have to agree with jen and mimi. and my recovery was definately not a ws running home, ohmygod i was so stupid can you forgive me type of thing.lol after d-day i plugged along for 3 yrs trying to stop the hemmoraging, all the while him pulling at the bandages!

it took my hubby three yrs to figure out him "being here" wasnt enough. i swear if i ever hear that statement again, im here arent i?, i will kill someone!lol

however, in that three yrs i learned to heal myself, i got stronger and i realized....I DID NOT NEED HIM TO SURVIVE. i wanted him but i didnt need him. big difference. when i reached that point, boy did things change. i asked him to get out, we separated, and i gave him the plan b letter. he immediately got into counseling and started working on him. he grew and realized for the first time what he really did to me. he has been learning and growing fo a year now. he is becomming the man i knew he was again. i no longer obsess everyday and i do have some trust in him again. its funny though....its not really anything he did to regain the trust....its because i trust ME again, my judgements and my ability to survive and go on.

Hi Jen

Your first post is the one I have been waiting for to show Squid that MC isn't about affairs, but about marriges and people.

Squid feels exactly as you did, yet stridently denies it. She has NEVER coped when I have been ill or enfeebled in some way. When Ihav been less thna her alpha male.

She has to change. We do not live in a pack of dogs, the leader is not killed and replaced when he weakens.

I'll think of a way to introduce your post to Squid. Thanks jen.

So, I'm thinking, here's the things I need to ponder:

1. Do I really believe I could be happy without my WW? Physically and financially I could survive without her, but emotionally? Am I deluding myself?

2. She says the main reason I'm staying despite her A is that I don't think I could find someone else...is she right?

3. I say the reasons I'm staying is primarily our kids and secondly because I love her and think we can rebuild our marriage. Am I kidding myself about the second?

4. How do I screw up enough courage to present her with my list of things she needs to do if she wants to rebuild our marriage even though I know the list may drive her away?

and the big one

5. What is an acceptable level of recovery? Do I need to (can I) define a state that I'm "satisfied" and "happy" if our recovered marriage achieves? Is "til death do us part" at that less-than-perfect state OK?

Too much thinking and not enough brain cells....

hey shattered ~ no I don't think the BS initates recovery. The BS can decide that he or she wants to stick around and is willing to go through what has to be done, and Plan A/B are certainly part of that - BUT - recovery can not start unless the WS makes that committment to change. If the WS does not make deep significant changes and growth, the BS will not successfully let go of the fear, the pain, the distrust.

Intexas ~ my marriage, my husband's affair was nothing like your hypothetical recovered marriage. my H's affair was almost 2 years. I found out I was pregnant 2 weeks after I kicked him out - we were separated 18 months. Yes he blamed me for everything.

Mimi expressed it very well, it wasn't so simple as "Oh dear the house is dirty and I'm not getting my ego stroked I think I'll have an affair". My husband was suffering from deep serious emotional pain and unhappiness. So was I. We chose different ways of dealing with it. He chose to have an affair because he imagined that was the way out of the pain. Addiction to feeling good, after years of feeling horrible? Absolutely.

Recovery happened because he chose to change. I filed for divorce and was very much at peace with my decision. I had discovered that I was going to be OK without him. The night before our first court date, he came to me and said: I am incredibly sorry, I have been so wrong, I will do all those thing Steve Harley told me to do. And then he did.

Anything less would not have been acceptable, and furthermore, would not have been recovery, but instead a continuation of selfish entitlement (ie I'm in pain so I'll fix it with an affair to feel good).

And like Mimi says, its not a chore. We are almost 5 years into recovery now. We have a much better marriage. We have BOTH changed tremendously. Yes his life is totally open to me, and he does not resent it. I give him the same in return. He and I both travel independently of each other quite a bit - and honestly, I am ok with that. I don't have the fears or insecurities about it that I might have had early in recovery. We share ititineraries, and schedules with each other and both carry cell phones - so even when I am sitting at dinner with work colleagues on the other side of the ocean, he can reach me. And when he is taking his programming staff out for lunch and sitting in meetings on the other coast, I can reach him. Does this mean we are paranoid and checking on each other? No way. We keep each other up to date on what is going on in our lives in a very regular basis because THAT IS WHAT WE DO. That is our pattern, our habit, its how we ARE. It is something we chose to build into our marriage, not only to protect us both from another affair, but because it builds intimacy and closeness. What started out as something we had to actively and awkwardly do because we werent used to doing it has now become as easy as breathing. He tells me on a regular basis that I am his best friend. He's finally stopped apologizing for his affair (at least he hasn't said he is sorry for what he did in a quite a while). My point is that he had real remorse, and made a real choice to be a better man, and a better husband. Those changes are what makes me comfortable. I changed ME too, and the knowledge that I know I'll be ok and know what to do if he does it again is VERY comforting. I don't live my life in that 'affair' mode anymore, and our marriage is SO much better.

bravo bramble!

I hope that my post didn't offend anyone (Mental note, read entire thread before commenting).

I know how serious this is, and I have actually not had any of these doubts. I know that my husband was a good husband before all of this. He really catered to me, but I didn't return the favor.

I love my husband, and I have forgiven his affair already, now I just need to be made to feel safe.

I hope that he and I can work through all of this, I know neither of us wants to live without the other. I want to spend the rest of my life with him.

God Bless,

-Caren

Thanks to all for sharing these experiences. Just like many others here, my M is in a state of limbo. I found out about the A back in July 05, exposed, discovered more about the EA and filed for D (not what I wanted, stupid knee jerk reaction). It's a long distance internet/phone A and turned PA Jan 06 when they met as OM came to town to meet her.

After their meeting, the D was proceeding I was OK with my life and prepared to be a single Dad. Well, she came to me about three weeks ago saying she is having second thoughts as to what path she is choosing. WW started seeing a therapist to help sort out her feelings and make her decision.

This is the first time since the A started WW is thinking about her actions and I have hope.

Bramble and Mimi--your stories give me goosebumps because that is the kind of recovery I think is possible and gives us all hope.

I am at a place--and in a way never felt like I couldn't--where I know I can live without my WH and still be happy and complete. One of my favorite passages is the scripture that says "we are complete in HIM." I have always clinged to that scripture in relationship to how I view my husband. I knew he'd never be able to make me whole. Maybe that is why I was able to not have my needs met most of the marriage (and I mean most) and still find peace and contentment in the marriage. Spidey--I hope you, too, can embrace this type of love. (I'm not trying to be preachy here, really, just sharing why I know I'll be "okay.")

But now the A has happened, and I am in a different place. I still feel complete in God. I know He will supply all my needs, etc. I know, and I actually learned this lesson before i married, that my H would never "complete" me. But the dream and the innocence of our marriage has been tainted. I am in no way advocating giving up--more releasing my WH because at least for the time being, I know he might want to come home now--but for all the wrong reasons. He just doesn't want to be alone. I truly believe I'd know if it was true.

What also helps me is that I know my WH belongs to God. All the promises I cling to right now--he can, too. he just has to come back to Him--his first love. Really, that helps keep me going, because I care for that man so much (even though every thinks I'm crazy for not hating him).

And to be honest, I need to heal a lot more than I let on to my friends.

No one touched on the question: You know--a decent spouse.

Again, I'm so encouraged by the recovery stories---and even of the recovery of Justpeachy, whose marriage wasn't saved. You are all Very strong, and it shows.

Believer,


You have brought up some very good points in this thread.
I like intexas would love someone to touch upon this question.

No one touched on the question:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) ones where before the a, the WS was a pretty upright guy in general--aka--fairly giving in the area of EA's, kind, etc. The whole out-of-character speal.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know--a decent spouse.

My WH was a good husband, kind ,caring and met 98% of my needs. It was I who lacked in the giving EN part for the last couple of years.

Not that I am excusing his behavior because I'm not. He should have talked to me and told me how he was feeling. I would have done whatever was needed to make things work, counseling anything.

Now the big question for me is after all of this pain and anger would recovery be something we could even make it through? I just don't know anymore. Of course I don't see it happening anymore since he filed for the divorce and it could be final in as little 90 days from now.

I have often sat here and wondered though if we ever got to reconciliation would it really be worth it. Would I ever trust him again, if something life altering happened and I could not meet his needs would he find someone who could?
So many questions, it scares the crap out of me.

So I will admit I do question is it worth all of this or would it just be better to be alone without these fears.

I still love him and probably always will to some degree but can I live with these doubts and fears in th back of my mind?



Hurting