WW has refused to come to Mediation, therefore the appointment has been cancelled now.

KFH,

I don't know the laws of this country, let alone UK...I feel like I'm of no help to you.

I don't buy your wife getting to claim harassment when you are attempting to see your own children.

They go to school?

Pick them up at school and have an afternoon with them.

They play at a friend's house? Pick them up and take them all for ice cream (do you have sun there yet?)...

Be creatively brave, KFH. Your wife does not have custody of anything but the house. You learned a valuable lesson in allowing that...now you know.

Write your children letters, draw pictures...show intent of contact and love.

Only thing I have for you...and my sympathy, too.

What books are you reading? What groups are you looking into for local support? Where are your relatives and why aren't they as into your life as your inlaws?

Doing my best...and know you're doing yours...

LA

LA, thank you very much for your message and such a kind advise.

Elder son (5 year old) goes to school, I have posted my kids 3 cartoon pictures with little notes on it for each.
no kids do not go to anywhere apart of inlaws house.

you right, I have learned alot now, from what I am going through.

to be honest with you, I am not reading any book. these days cant even do study for my degree course.

the weather is still miserable, raining all the time.

I have jonied a course here (8 week course), where people who are going through seperation/divorce. the course provides some good material about how to cope with depression and improve self esteem etc. on the same time we discuss within group how each individaul is doing, to improve their situation.

all my relatives are back in asia, I am going to see my family by end of this month.

last night I was talking to my mom on the phone and she was telling me my inlaws there (other relatives, my wife's uncles, aunts & my wife's brother-in-law) were saying that they want to talk to me, as they have heard all the stories only from my wife's side but still they haven't spoken me directly.

I am thinking to talk to them when I go there by end of this month and explain them the situation, i.e. how much I am trying to reconsile and what my brother in law has been doing to make the situation worst.

Thanks
KFH

Saturday (10/03/06), recvd a letter from my solicitors attached a reply from WW's solicitor, stating that WW is not interested to attend MC or Mediation with me as these services have been accessed in the past with no success. This is complete false statement, as we have never been to MC or Mediation. I am going to ask my solicitor to ask for the proof when and where we have accessed these services.

currently I have got all my kids Birth certificates and WW asking me to return them unless I return the certificates she will not let me see the kids. WW is thinking that I will arrange kids traveling documents and take them away, I dont know why she is thinking that way, I have got no intention to do it. and if I do not return Bith certificates then she will consider to isuue an application for a Prohibited Steps Order without further notice. (I dont know what this means). Furthermore WW also instructed to her Solicitor to issue an application for a Non-Molestation and Occupation Order.

WW's solictor also has mentioned that I had attempted to strangle WW, and previously been following her and visiting my metromonial home in unsocialable hours, and keep harasing her, again false statements, I have been there twise only (since she refused to let me see the kids I have never been there) and both time I went there in lunch break time. never been there in the evenings or early mornings.

WW also has mentioned in the letter that I was pestering her family. Again false statement, cause always my brother inlaw called me by sending me text messages to come at his house to discuss the matter. I have got all the text messages on my mobile to prove it.

I m going to discuss it with my solicitors and will update you all later.
KFH

Thanks for the update, KFH...

Could you do one thing...just a little, heartrending thing? When she makes these false statements...how do you feel? Would you share your feelings here? Practicing O&H is a good part of any plan. You're safe and you count.

LA

well, its such a painful feeling, when you hear things like what WW has said. specially when you are ready to offer her forgivness and want to improve/ rebuild the relationship, I dont know it is because I am still in love with her and dont want to lose her. my heart still pray to God, please give us one more chance to repair our relathionship.

to be honest with you LA, I am again going back to the same pain I had 3 months ago, when I wasn't able to sleep and getting depressed, since I have recived this letter from WW.

its WW, who damaged the relationship and while I am looking forward to rebuild this relationship, she is the one comming up with a statement saying marriage has been broken down to the level of unrecoverable state. how she can make such a statement, what is she feeling, I dont know.
sometime I feel that she is still in an A. but on the same time, A has been opened and discussed everywhere, OP's family also knows about it, and last time when I spoke to OP, he was telling me that he does not want to get involve in this anymore and I am out of it, as his father was been contacted by WW's brother.
Since the DDay was in DEC05, if there was any fog it should have been finished by now.

May be she is feeling unsecured / guilty, and not trusting me that if I can forgive her from the bottom of my heart, but on the same time I had given her the assurance last time when we had a discussion about it. that we can rebuild our relationship even more stronger.

LA, can you please define what do you mean by O&H, I didn't get that.

KFH

Good morning (my time) KFH,

O&H is Openness and Honesty...the abbreviations for Emotional Needs (ENs) can be found in the first post in "Just Found Out" in the Infidelity forum. I don't remember now if you said you'd read all those articles on the Love Bank, ENs or Lovebusters. I'm just waking up.

You began saying you felt pain hearing those things that WW said. I believe that is O&H. Would be great to hear all the feelings that accompany what she said. Plan A is also about practicing ENs. I believe you if have the need for it, you should give it. Balance.

Then you say that you feel like you're sliding back into the pain you experienced three months ago. I get that. You don't tell me how you feel about going back to that pain--maybe sharing your expectations so we both know them would help.

You've got some. Especially about time and the fog. How Plan A and exposure was supposed to stop the A...or if the A is really stopped, then why she is not wanting to rebuild with you.

I just thought that the added pain you are feeling might be anger from things not meeting your expectations. When that happens to me, I look at my expectations first--they are the only part I control.

Your focus seems to remain on your WW. I'm tugging it away, to you, because you matter. You are all you have control over. Respect that she heard you on forgiveness and what you believe. She believes differently right now.

LA

A very good morning LA,

Yes I have read those very valuable articles and I have read them more than once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> its worth reading them, I will say.

back in December, that time I didn't know about A, my brother in law told me that WW does not feel secure with you, and therefore need a space from u for a while, it was the time I felt so much pain in my life I never felt that way, the one I love and I feel my life partner, saying that they are unsecure in my presence, I cannot explain my feeling, and I just teared up in front of my brother in law. but I told him that you were not suppose to say these words to me even though your sis has mentioned it to you. similarly when WW has mentioned now that the relationship has been broken down to unrecoveralbe position, its the same feelings. but saying that now I dont feel going for sucide things but before I was getting sucidal feelings after getting those special statements from my inlaws.

when you are saying Plan A is also practicing ENs, I agree but thats the question, in my situation WW is not allowing me to face her and she also getting support on it from her family. this is the big obstacle I m facing to start getting into contact with WW. once I get this opportunity then I am ready to start working on meeting her ENs as much as I can. or to show her how I feel about her. currently.
I cant see if I have the ooption to balance the things. may be I am looking at the situation from different side. I dont know

You are right, I am expecting WW, to realise what she is doing not right for both of us, for our children and for our future where our children future is also involved.

You see my mind does not accept it, unless I find out the exact reason why WW thinks that we cannot rebuild the relationship, thats what I want to know. but unfortunately cannot ask this question. sometime I feel, I dont need to ask this question, this is again I am expecting from her to think in the way I am thinking, which is not possible.

Yes, I agree with you that she is different and this is where I have to focus more.

regards
KFH

Practicing meeting ENs when your WW isn't available...well, that's why I invited you to practice here. If you are really solid that you communicate your thoughts, feeling and beliefs well, then you don't have to state those things here. I got the feeling you're not solid...that is difficult for you to do so. Could just be me, right?

Others who have not had practice speaking those things have been practicing here, when they post, like meeting this EN for themselves. I know it helped me to practice with everyone I encountered.

Learning to make "I feel" and "I believe" statements, and listening/repeating was essential for me. Guess I preach it a lot. But then, my belief is that what I need most from someone else is really what I'm not giving myself. The very need is like a signal, if I look at it. Also, I didn't like feeling frustrated when I focused solely on how to make the other person meet my need. I have no control over others, just me. I got my unreasonable needs down to reasonable this way, doing myself that which I craved from others.

" my brother in law told me that WW does not feel secure with you, and therefore need a space from u for a while, it was the time I felt so much pain in my life I never felt that way,"

Answer me this, please...your WW did not feel secure with you, correct? Did you cause, control or were in charge of curing that? Is that what you believed? Do you respect her enough to know that often we don't feel secure and it is coming from within us, our past, our beliefs, and no one is causing it?

You have your part in the marriage and she has hers. I felt rejected, judged, thrown away and cut off from my H. He only had a part of that; the rest was me feeling that way. I didn't own my part of it. I can feel rejection from a store clerk not saying good morning. That's my part in rejection. Some is real, some is not. I can feel very fearful where others don't. They aren't causing it...I'm feeling it...it is mine to decipher and know.

You felt pain and wounded from your BIL stating your wife's truth. Did you feel the cause? Did you feel like you made her feel insecure?

LA

Good Morning,

I think I didn't make myself clear when I said that WW wasn't feeling secure with me. what happend was, before I left the house, my inalws came up to my metromonial home and discussed what was going on b/w us. i.e. we were not communicating with each other though I had attemped to break the ice but WW was not ready (now I can feel that she had made her mind to finish the relationship that time) everytime I was attempting to communicate with her, she was not responding or whenever she was responding the only thing she was saying to me that its not going to be this way anymore, means we just cannot start talking as normal. after my inlaws left I started to talk with WW. and as usual she was ignoring me, I took it as she needs time to cool down her feelings, therefore I went to my sons' room and slept there (previously I was sleeping there). in the morning when I woke up I thought I will give her a hug before I leave for office, therefore I went to my bedroom and she was awake, when I tried to hug her she jumped up from the bed and asked me what u doing, I said just hugging you and she said no, dont do that otherwise I will shout/cry, I thought she is joking and I tried to hug her again, and then I realised that she was getting very serious, therefore I left her with a smile. had a shower and left for the office, in the evening when I came home, I found that WW had left the house (went to her mom's house with kids) when I wrung my BIL then he told me all the stories I have mentioned above. so this was unsecurity WW was feeling.

I am trying to control myself now adays, the week before last week, when I went to see my BIL (when I was told to go back to my home), he was very abusive towards me, and aggressive as well, I didn't respond to him in the same way kept myself cool, and when I was comming out of his house, he tried to push me out, but I didn't feel it bad, cause what I was trying to do, to save my own house, not his house. and therefore I made an attempt, it didn't work, no problem. and when I got in my car I laughed to prove myself that I am not hurt by my BIL's actions and his statements.

But I agree with you that sometime I do get slipped where I loose control over myself, and as you have said this needs practicing, and I am trying to control myself.

LA, I really appreicate the help you are offering me. thanks a bunch.
regards
KFH

Thank you for your patience with me and all my questions. It is my form of respect to you, to understand and not assume. Assumptions and mindreading kills marriages.

I'm reading your post again, and of course, have more questions. If I fall into awkward phrasing, don't sound like myself to you, please understand that I am not disrespecting you. I have a problem of falling into other people's accents and writing styles sometimes. I'm alert to it, but I do lose my own voice a bit.

You judged yourself, by the way, by choosing to believe that you didn't make yourself clear. I have to stop right there and comment, because there are two in this conversation...a speaker and a listener. You may believe you didn't make yourself clear--could my part be that I didn't listen well enough? Both parts, same result. Important to me to distinguish because if you hog the blame, then I have no part, 'k?

Goes to marriages, too.

"we were not communicating with each other though I had attemped to break the ice but WW was not ready" What I hear you saying is that you were willing to talk and WW wasn't? I hear you saying you didn't know before you moved out about WW's A?

Is this the way it was in times of conflict pre-A?

See your power here "now I can feel that she had made her mind to finish the relationship that time" You are choosing to believe that this was in her mind because her actions line up. This is disrespectful to you to do, not because it most likely is the truth, but because if you'll mindread, even in retrospect, you'll do that in the present. Better to stick with the reality you both share...she was not receptive to stating her thoughts and feelings. I am saying this not to bash you, but to align yourself with reality and not do what she is doing, which is telling you how it is instead of seeing with clarity what actually is between you.

From her phrase that we aren't going to be talking like normal...I get this in my experience. In your marriage before, did you have a habit of pretty good communication, then a conflict would arise, a blow up would occur (or intensely bad communication), and within hours or a day, you would be pleasant again, attempting to break the ice with your wife?

Was this a pattern that your wife wouldn't like something you said or did and she would choose to withdraw from you, either physically or verbally, until she choose to discuss her side again?

I am still not understanding the insecurity part...my experience from your thorough explanation was that she was angry, felt unheard, felt wrong and that she didn't matter to you. My projection, of course. I could be very off the mark.

When I said you can only control yourself, I meant that you're human, and God didn't bestow the power to control others to humans. Do not lie to yourself to make yourself feel something you don't. Your BIL disrespected you, pushed you, and it that is a form of rejection. It hurts. You know it does, but also realized that his pushing said more about him than you. You didn't make him do it.

If you feel frustrated and angry for not being believed, those feelings are good information about your beliefs. They are your feelings. They are real. Respect them as the information they are...you know you're telling your truth. Not being believed does not make you a liar...it happens when others do not want to believe your truth.

You want very much to save your marriage, see your children, have your life be different than it is right now. You might feel rejected, powerless, frustrated, confused, angry and resentful. Okay to share those feelings. They are yours. They are valid and real.

You are not expected to be perfect...only perfectly human.

You seem to have a solid knowledge of what you believe about what you are doing. I guess my questions are about what you believe about yourself. The answers might help you in your efforts to save your marriage. You're half of the marriage. You have your part. The only part you control.

Thank you for having me on your thread, too, and in your life.

LA

LA, sometime its very very difficult to be human being.

well, when I said in my preivous post, I didn't make myself clear, means I am taking an opportunity from listener (you) by not blaming you to explain what message I am trying to convey . without comming up to the point where listener have not listened it completely or speaker didn't make it very clear at the first time. on the same time I can understand what you are trying to say is not all the time take yourself down. but judge yourself fairly/ honestly.

yes, in our marriage, we used to have a time where me and my wife use to have arguments and poor communications, and end up not talking to each other. but maximum between 1 to 3 days and then we started to talk again, if I see my wife is not taking initiative to start the communication, then I use to move forward next day and start talking to each other and if I am still angy on the second day my wife use to move forward and start the discussion. saying that I aways tried to ignore those topics or discussions where I see that me or WW will get hurt, and most of the time WW use to start those topics where we both have different opinions, i.e. discussing my family and blaming me giving them favors all the time on the same time she does the same but never see her side. and keep forcing me to stop dealing with my family this way. I have made it very clear to her so many times that I cannot leave my parents and brothers/sisters. they have got their own position/ values in my life and dont try to compare yourself with those relationships cause you have got your own position in my life which cannot be compared with parents and bro/sis. but she always use to discuss it with me that made me feel angry because I always gives respect to her family and never pin pointed them though sometime they used to behave rude with me. and I always took it the that its not my wife's fault they were rude with me why do I have give her sad feelings. and I was expecting the same from WW but never got this response from her ever, and still I never complained her about it.
I will not say we had a very good communication between us in last year or so. but in the early days I can say that we had a good communication between us.

as I have mentioned before, that since all this drama started we were not talking to each other, and this was putting both of us in depression, and I was not telling her that I am getting depressed on the same time she was not discussing it with me and started to go to IC. after that we started live very much seperately, as every time I was trying to come near to her she was keep pushing me away, I mean when I talk to her she will bearly answer it or no response at all. and if I say something very little like can you please attend the kids, she will start shouting and throwing the things away which end up again no communication.

I am also very much confused why, WW had said to her family that she does not feel secure with me. Before I came to know about A, I was getting mad why is she saying it, what is the reason behind, I had no clue whats ever, and when I found come to know about A, I thought may be to finish the relationship she used this dialogue to take favour from her family. but still I am confused, not very sure about it why she said it. on the same time she knows that I never force her for anything, if she is not happy with any of my action I will never do that. for example if we are making love and half way she said I am finished now, I never force her to let me complete, I just stop then and there. always try to give her comfort.

I am little cofused, when you metioned, I am half of our marriage but this half not able to save the R when other half trying to break it.

KFH

I am not sure if I will be able to visit my kids before I go on holidays, I am planning to go by end of this month on my brother's wedding. but still haven't managed to arrange a meeting with my kids.

WW has sent a letter to my solicitor to proceed with DV. but I have refused to accept this for the time being. my solicitor has advised me to return kids birth certificates to WW (currently I have got them with me). because as per the UK law the birth certificates should be with kids means the parent who has got the custody of the kids. I will be sending the certificates to my solicitor tomorrow and will ask them to speed up the process so that I can meet my children before I go on holiday.

WW has mentioned that she will only allow me to see my kids under supervised environment, I have refused to accept this condition and have asked the reason why she is asking for supervised contact, previously she had given the reason that I was harrasing her and my solicitor has replied to this objection that I wasn't harrasing her but was trying to visit my kids when WW had refused to allow me seeing my kids.

I have requested my solicitor to apply a court order for unlimited contacts with my kids plus I want to get involve with all the decision on education of my kids and any other related matters. hoping that by the time I will come back from holidays, there will be some progress on this.

KFH

I read your post this morning. I appreciate the update.

Mind including some feelings to go along with the facts?

LA

I am getting my self ready to go and see my kids sometime this weekend (fingure crossed). I have bought 2 remote contol racing cars for DS1 and DS2. this afternoon I was feeling bit emotional when I thought about that I will be going to see my kids after three months even I am just 15 min drive away from them. but then I tried to controlled my feelings.

last week I was reading some websites about DV and what is involved in the process. and found that when someone apply for DV in the UK, the court ask for the at least two question,
1) is there Adultory involved, if yes then court will decree the DV.
2) is there voilence involved (and someone's life is at risk), if yes then court will decree DV.

otherwise couple has to wait for 2 years and after 2 years if the couples are still seperate then only court will decree DV.

after reading this I felt that I do have time in hand no matter what, even if WW is rushing for whatever reason either if she is in fog state or withrawal from me.

now back home in asia, everyone is waiting for me.including WW's BILs (WW's sister's husband) they want to talk to me about all of this. can you pls help me of how much should I open up in the discussion and which areas I should be covering up. now what I am thinking that I will tell them all those things that WW hasn't mentioned or her brother has hidden. WW and her brother has given the image that its all my fault and because I want to finish the R therefore I have blamed to WW. which is absolutely wrong.

Well I will update you all after comming back from holidays.
KFH

KFH,

I share your excitement on getting to see the kids. And I'm excited you will have an opportunity to share to relatives, including inlaws...

Choose from your code. If you value you honesty, then your standards say that you are not allowed to lie to others, directly or by omission. If you cover up anything, then you are aiding her affair, the divorce and betraying yourself. I value you. Please value yourself. If you violate this standard in yourself, you won't enforce the boundary that says you do not allow others to be dishonest with you. See the balance?

Do not attempt to convince them, prove or otherwise argue your belief. You have your truth, your knowledge. State them that way..."This is what I believe, think and feel." No argument. If they tell you that is not what they believe, then respect that. Tell them of your commitment, "I want to save my marriage. I have learned much more than I knew before."

If they state where the blame lays, say, "I learned that in marriage, there is no blame. I have my part and she has hers. Blame kills intimacy."

Be well, KFH.

LA

Thank you very much LA, for your valueable advise as u give me always.

I am back from holidays and I can say that it was a great time I had after such a long time. all were so happy to see me there.

the day before coming back to UK, I had a meeting with my inlaws at that end, I took my mom and sis with me when I went to see them. WW's sister and her brother in laws were there and some other elderly relatives.
as per your good advise, I clearly mentioned everything including where I was on the mistake and what WW had done. at the end my mom said to everyone that we are not here to do any arguments or to blame anyone i.e. I am wrong or WW is wrong but we had this meeting to bring up the truth. Now if WW or her family wants to save this relationship, they have to move foward without puting and conditions. and we want to save this relationship as well, on the same time we dont want WW or her family to feel that even they are on mistake we are still begging them to save this relationship. but we are only offering the forgiveness to WW if she wants to come back honestly and sincerly.

as previously, my inlaws were keep saying that its all my fault cause I let my nephew to live at my home therefore even if WW had an A with him, I am the one to be blamed and this question was asked again while I was there and I simply answered it by asking them a question, if I bring the sh*t in the house, does it gives the permission to my family to start eating it. apart of this question we didn't have any question and we all came back home.

on the same time I explained to everyone there how my BIL was behaving and I told them that may be that was natural behaviour of his, even he was doing partiality and was not looking at the real facts to decipline WW. The point I tried to bring up was I am not blaming my BIL.

Still I haven't managed to get access to my kids and today I have sent an email to my solicitor to arrnage the court order of contact as WW keep coming up with reasons of not letting me to see my kids. Now she is saying that she will only allow me supervised contact under supervision of care center or her family members and I have strongly refused to accept this condition.

Regards
KFH

Oh, KFH! My goodness...

What a great action you chose with your inlaws...and what an AWFUL example you chose at the end. Oh, dear man...the correct answer (from one who is not full of anger, pain and a torn heart)...

"Yes, I believe now that a marriage is only safe when there are two people in it. I have learned this and will not bring anyone to live with my family. I will protect WW from herself and her choices."

This contains what you said, respectfully, without rancor or defensiveness...and mirrors what they are saying. You can't really protect WW from herself, but that is what they were asking of you...can you protect our daughter from her horrific choices and spare us shame?

Accept the condition to see your kids on a agreed-upon third party supervision, not related. Then your kids will know they were worth compromising for. I agree with not her family members because then they can lie against you in court. The state can provide a supervisor for a fee. Even in the UK, surely! Hopefully?

Very happy to see you on the board again...and that you got your acceptance, attention, admiration and appreciation dose from your holiday. I know you needed it. Stay strong in it. Did you bring back presents for the kids? Could be a good lure...are you in contact with them by phone?

LA

Hi LA

Thank u very much for a warm welcome again.

I had bought some toys for kids before I went on Hols but didn't bring anything from hols cause I know WW, she will not allow kids to play with them as they are bought from outside the UK (cheap). I dont want to give her any option where she can find a reason to hate.

to be honest with u I have to find out what are the pros and cons in supervised visit, the one of the major issue I can see is that I cannot see my kids when I want or when my kids want to see me. and once I accept this it will be difficult to change it later on.

No I haven't got any connection / communication with kids so far as WW has changed home tel no as well as her mobile no. Now I am not impatient to sort out the matter quickly, I am trying to be patient as much as I can. and I believe that by doing this God will help me and whatever is best for me will happen.

Regards
KFH

How great is your solicitor? I would think documenting all of WW's efforts to cut you off from the children would be critical knowledge for the eventual Judge or Mediator to see.

Write your children letters...maybe with big pictures cut out from magazines...keep copies of the letters and the dates posted. The highest priority here is for your children to know as soon as possible that you did not abandon them. Whether they get through to your children is out of your control. Do your parents call them? Any of your relatives stay in contact with them, your children?

I understand about supervision being a long term problem...but you'll have to choose between your children knowing you haven't left them by choice or getting what you want long-term, which leaves them knowing something untrue and suffering from it.

Although, I do know they will still suffer. I'm so sorry.

Go with letters and with relatives who can tell the children there are letters. That could be a start. They need to hear of your journey, your love, your acceptance of them and that they matter greatly to you.

Do not say that their mother is keeping you away legally from them. Say that you are doing everything you can to get to see them.

Keep copies of the letters in a three-ring notebook. You will know you are taking action and it may help you to not feel so helpless.

LA