Don't throw out bones like that if you are going to be devestated if she doesn't fetch them. Read about 'detaching with love'. If she rejects your offer, don't beg. When she comes over top fix the fence, just do whatever you would do if she was a stranger you are trying to pick up. Don't go overboard, think of the secret buttons you know she has.

Oh, in case it hasn't been mentioned, don't bad mouth the OW. It makes the WS defend the OW and makes you the evil ex.

Hi Jean,

Thanks so much for your messages. Okay, even if I am devastated, I will not show her that. If she texts me back with "No" or "I don't know," I'll just write back "Okie dokie" or something non-emotional. I won't beg at all -- haven't done that in ages.

I will read about "detaching with love" -- is it here on MB?

If/when she comes to fix the fence, part of me was thinking of finding something else to do away from the house, but a bigger part of me wants to continue to work in the yard (I have a LOT to do).

Hmmmmnnn.... a stranger I'm trying to pick up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will be friendly and helpful if I can, but definitely not needy or suffocating.


Yeah, I have read about that a lot. And, in fact, I've never said one bad thing about her. Ever. Now, my thoughts -- they are a whole 'nother ball game.

I would stay and work in the yard and look GOOOOD doing it. Maybe throw in a pitcher of Sangria or Margarita.

I will look for the detaching with love, but I stink at searching for stuff.

detaching with love is HERE

Yeah, that's true. It does seem harder. I wish I had the advantage of a marriage certificate. It is so easy for so many to walk out the door when there isn't one.


Yes, they work together -- kinda. They work for the same employer, at different locations, but they are within 2 miles of each other and can meet at any time and often during their shift for coffee breaks, lunch or whatever.


She is doing okay. She is 16 so she is pretty much wrapped up in her own world right now. WG and DD's relationship started out fabulously. As she grew, with WG's lack of parenting instincts and skills and DD's "teen" personality developing, it became hot and cold. They've always loved each other, but have gone through numerous periods of just tolerating each other. DD was nonplussed when it all came to an end -- and even looked forward to having me back to herself. However, the dust has settled and reality has set in and she realizes how much she misses her and how much a part of her/our lives WG was.


How do I do that when she "broke up" with me. I continue to put that in quotes because she started this with "I need time to figure out if I want to work on our relationship." When I pointed out that that would not include dating and having sex with other people, she came back a few days later with "I want to break up." Yet, she continued to talk about "If we get back together..." "I'm still confused..." "I'm a big question mark...." etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the "break up" served ONE purpose -- a ticket to date and have sex with Julie while she "figures out" what she wants to do with us. So, at this point, we are separated, so how can I state, at any time, that we are partners?


Yeah, no kidding. I go back and forth between wanting to be and do whatever I can and wanting to tell her to **** off.


The thing is, I don't know what WG tells Julie about me. Does she make up excuses when she sees me? "Oh, the house needs x and I need to go check it out...." etc. Early on, I asked her what she told Julie about me or us and she said that she told her "She is heartbroken; and I still have feelings for her." But, that was about 3 weeks ago or so. I don't know -- and have no way of knowing what she says now. I hope she is honest with her -- because I'd like nothing more for than the dust to settle between them and have things be more reality-based -- and not so exciting and ooey gooey.

The thing about the dogs is that the need is not there all the time. It's only when WG takes on shifts/overtime that keeps her away from the house for long periods. I have continued to be there in that regard, and after reading your posts, I will continue to be there when she needs me. But, it's not like an every day or week need.

Hi JE,

I bought Surviving the Affair late last night, but haven't read any of it yet. Looking forward to it though.

I also did the EN questionnaire. Very enlightening. I wish I could show it to WG, but I'm so confused on what she wants or doesn't want from me in the way contact, phone calls, etc. I usually mail her mail to her (unless I happen to see her). Should I mail it to her with a note? Should I not ask her to do it? Should I send her mine? Should I fill one out coming from what I think she would say? Would I send that one to her?

Gosh, I have so many questions and I'm getting so dissillusioned -- until I come back to this site. It hurts me so much to see all the text messages she sends, yet, she hasn't initiated ONE call or text to me since I saw her on Saturday. I want so badly to have a crystal ball and to know what the outcome will be -- or even what she is truly thinking.

Hi JE,

Thanks for your thoughtfulness. I did buy The Courage to Heal ("TCTH") and the Workbook to go with it last night. I started reading it. When I left for work this morning, I grabbed TCTH and then put it down and picked up Surviving the Affair. Then I said "No, I'm going to take TCTH -- I need to think a little more about me and not WG. I'm glad to have gotten the book -- but am a little wary about the journey. I'm glad that I have a therapy appointment tomorrow night.

It drives me crazy. I can't stop thinking about her. OBSESSING!!! I have dreams about her -- this morning the dream that woke me up was seeing her and Julie driving away in a car. How can I make myself think about something else besides what she's doing, thinking, feeling and saying????

I do understand that -- intellectually. I have done such a good job of "splitting" -- and even though I am aware of my feelings and am able to express them -- it seems like I intellectualize everything around the abuse. Yes, it happened, but I'm functional. I'm surviving. Yeah, I believe you, the books, my therapist and everybody else that it affects every single thing I do in my life -- especially relationships, but I am not to the point of FEELING IT IN MY HEART that it's true. Does that make sense?

Jean, I printed out the pages from this link and took them (and others regarding Plan B letters) to my car to read during my lunch break. This information was so needed by me. Especially the Three C's -- it all made me cry. I'm so sad, lonely and fearful, but knowing that, most of all, I cannot control my WG or cure the A has helped me (at least for right now) tremendously. Seriously, I am keeping these pages and will keep them on my nightstand to read over and over again. My biggest fear is that my WG will tell me that she no longer loves me as a "girlfriend". The hardest part is not having any control. I will read and re-read these pages till I fully grasp the concept that I am POWERLESS. Hopefully, it will help to lessen the obsessive thoughts -- which are non-stop.

Thank you so much!!!

I'm sorry, JE. Sometimes I wonder if the long-term effects of the abuse are now worse than enduring and surviving. I so wish I could erase those memories. I was reading The Courage to Heal last night picturing my abuser and my little 6 year-old self and thinking "How could you???" I just don't understand it. And my mother was a "silent perpetrator or partner" -- forget what it's called. She was blinded, ignorant and didn't do the right things all three times she was told over the six years. I am not resolved in that area at all and I think it has always been a dark cloud over my relationship with my mother.

Chaka,
I want to let you in on a few secrets.
First and foremost, until you let that little girl be comforted, protected and become part of you you will always have problems in relationships.
Second, with saying that there are different levels of surviving. From living with the trauma but not dealing, all the way to thriving in life with the abuse melded and controlled by you.
Third- regardless of the outcome with you and your WG, you must achieve the highest level possible in the abuse area to ever become a FULL partner to someother person.
Fourth- Part of plan A of the affair is to work on you, and in doing that you will have to take the journey again. It is hard, it is frightening, and the flashbacks come on strong in the beginning, but remember you can do this.
Fifth- Your WG does not have to help you on your journey. My FWH has not and did not. He cannot deal with that. Never has. In the book on the section for partners it states that clearly. They are better away from you if the cannot help you heal. You do not need nor want sympathy and not many can empathize with the situation unless they have been there or they are truly committed.
I took the chance when choosing me over him. I chose me, and to work on me. If he had gone wayward again that was a risk I knew I was taking and did it without looking back.
Sixth- MB does not save all relationships. However, if you work on you, and your relationship with her and it does not work out; you will still be in a great position in life. Healing from the A, thriving with abuse past, and happy that you did all that you could to save the relationship and it just didnt work.

I want you to know that it truly takes courage to heal; from the abuse and the affair. Walking away from my marriage would have been so much easier. Chosing not to deal with the abuse would have also. I chose to do both. I do not regret my choice. I am not in love with my FWH, and do not trust him. I did everything I could to improve myself, and did. I have hopes to learn to trust and love him again, but have no guarantees on that. No one can give me those gaurantees. It is something he has to show me and I have to accept or decide I have had enough.

My mother also knew per say. She would leave me alone all the time with the monster. Even let him bathe me at age 8!! Sick, but she was also abused physically and mentally as a child. Her husband died when she was 26 and left her with 4 small children. I have forgiven her for that, but like the affair, will never forget. The pain decreases over time, but the memory is there.
I will write more after dinner.
JE

Y'know, after trying EMDR briefly last fall, I just put it all on the back burner. Since the A and realizing that I have a lot of self-improvement to accomplish, I also feel the recovery/healing is an absolute necessity -- for me mostly, but also for whomever I will share my life with. It's a mixed bag of emotions -- total fear and also looking forward. What I fear most is that my sub-conscious will not allow me to go through what I need to go through. The walls and defense mechanisms are so strong -- I got NOTHING from the two sessions of EMDR -- yet, I believe it could help. Only once have I ever grieved/cried out loud in the past 27 years about what happened. When I feel any sadness while at therapy, I BLOCK it till it goes away. Maybe with a strong commitment inside, I'll be able to get past the walls and allow myself to FEEL the emotions -- I hope anyway.

Let's see. About 15 years ago, I saw a therapist and it was non-productive. I didn't like how she was trying to get me to see that the guy I was involved with reminded me of my step-dad. He TRULY did not -- even though he was a jerk.

Then, a couple years later, I tried again. This time a male therapist. Just wasn't comfortable enough and his personality really bored me. It was then that I first bought The Courage To Heal. I did a little in the Workbook at that time, but then put it away.

We started seeing our therapist in the Winter of '05 and, from the beginning, she has gently encouraged me to "go there." I avoided it till last fall and, like I said, gave the EMDR a shot and got discouraged at my "failure."

She (my therapist) has also told me that some of who I am as a result of the abuse will not ever disappear. All I really want is exactly what you mentioned. I want to be less controlling; less married to outcomes being "my way"; less irritable; less tolerant of others' frailties; a better listener; more understanding of others' perspectives and to have more patience and joy. Ya think it's possible?

How long did it take you to get where you are? What methods did you use?

Yes, she knows the basics and some of the details. She is fully aware of the fact that it does affect who I am and how I react and respond. She was very supportive and encouraging when I attempted the journey last year -- drove me to my therapist for the EMDR session in case I was too frazzled.

She does have an incident of sexual abuse by her father. No physcial abuse. Not emotional abuse, but more like mental -- her mother is very manipulative. Also, she was the 5th of five children so, based on conversations with her, I sense that she felt invisible most of her life.

Our therapist suggested that she read "Allies in Healing," and she got the book (don't remember if I got it for her or if she took the initiative), but I don't think she ever read one page of it. Other than that, outside of whatever she has discussed with our therapist in her individual sessions, I've never seen any attempts by her to educate herself or to understand the deep effects.

I can relate. I think WG assumed my over-reactions and controlling behaviors (mostly in the form of what I have read here to be DJs) were my simply being mean, rude or hyper-sensitive. I don't like those things about me, but I agree with you -- for right now, they just are a part of me. Hopefully, in time, to a much lesser degree.

That's kinda where I am -- while the A eats away at me every minute of every day, I believe that I must put myself and my healing at the top of the priority list. I feel like I've made that scary choice -- just wondering where the road will go and in what forms it will twist and turn.

I believe that, until I get this resolved inside of me, I will never be fully whole and that is my goal.

I can say that I love myself intellectually -- but, like I said, I wonder sometimes if my sub-conscious really believes it to be true. (Is that splitting or compartmentalizing?) Though I know I didn't cause the abuse, I have regrets -- regrets of not screaming it from the rooftops; of not screaming "No!!!", etc., etc. I know I didn't know better. We were not taught. I had no education. Sometimes I can't help but feel like I should have instictively known to tell my dad and step-mom. I could have saved myself years of pain.

By the way, JE, congratulations on your recovery and healing. Not having gone through it, but knowing how hard and terrifying it is, I think it's awesome that you made it to the other side.

I'm still wrestling with the "Cause" thing. I KNOW I didn't cause the A, but still have a lot of regrets and "If only I".....Printing and reading and re-reading the "Detaching with Love" thread will be very helpful in reminding myself that I did not cause WG to stray.

I WANT to be fully there. My brain says I'm there, but my sub-conscious and my actions prove otherwise I think. While my self-esteem is higher than it has ever been, I think I've got a long way to go.

Please don't apologize for the long post or anything else. I am so appreciative of the time you have taken to communicate your thoughts, feelings, experience and suggestions with me. Thank you for everything.

Take care, Just Empty

P.S. Would you mind sharing with me your opinion, thoughts, feelings and general experience with EMDR? How much do you think it helped?

Ok back now.This is a long one!

With the abuse issues:

I have been to counseling and therapy, and none helped. I did a few EMDRs also. They helped little for me, but I am not a real believer either. I like concrete, more tangible stuff. I wont say it didnt help a bit, I will just say it was what it was. For 20 plus years of my life I have tried many coping or not coping ways to deal. I did drugs, alcohol, self harm, attempted suicide, and the most effective not coping was my walls. I am sure you know about walls. The proverbial life savers. Yes, they are but they are also the hardest thing to overcome when trying to heal.
None of those worked obviously. So, after dealing instead of healing, I decided I had had enough. I bought The Courage to Heal, The Survivors Guide, and started my 3rd round of IC.
With that I had to open all channels of myself. Make myself so vulnerable that I was ready to stop and put up walls everyday. But I did not. All of the emotions, all of the fear, the terror and torment, all of the pain, etc. All came out full force. I would literally shake from fear. Whenever a flashback came on I had to consciously and subconsciously go to the little girl. Not easy when you hated her for not fighting back. I had to feel what I split from back then, I had to see with her eyes instead of from above looking down. Do you see where this is going? Have you done that yet?
I then had to be the adult, go to her, and fight off the monster. I failed many times in this. I was frightened of him, I would get pulled in to far with her, and end up just living it again. The key for me was to feel her pain, and get angry, and fight for her. Tell her that I was there and would fight. I had to love that little weak child. I am not a weak person. Before the affair, I had cried maybe 5 times in 17 years of marriage.
Slowly the normal flashbacks faded and became easier for me to take control of. Then new ones I had never experienced came on. Now I only have memory of my entire childhood, from birth to age 15 for about a 5 minute span. I remember no schooling, no friends, nothing. That is how bad I split.
Now I remember maybe a total of 3 hours, nothing good for sure. But as each memory comes I take it and do the same thing. It does get easier. Each new memory will paralyze me for a little while, then I jump right in. I do not let the walls come up, I beat them to the punch.
I am willing to help you along the way, along with your therapist. But a great therapist is essential. Someone to show you how to stand up to the monster, and own him.
Want to hear something weird. I bought the house I grew up in!!! That is another story, but will sum it up to I have had to go in each and every room in this "haunted" house, and yell "I own you" etc.

Now with the affair:

I will give you a brief history here to help.
I met my husband right after my 17th birthday. I had willingly had sex with one person once in my life. The first night I met him, I slept with him. I got pregnant. He was 34. He decided that he was not ready to be a dad again. He had been married twice before and had 1 child from each marriage. His first wife cheated on him. He cheated on his second wife. And was engaged when I slept with him. All of which I did not know until we were married.
Back to the story. He didnt want to be a father. He decided to not have the child, I followed. (I still do not think I have forgiven him for this) That was absolutely awful. Then we started dating. We were married 10 months later. I was 3 months pregnant with my son when we married. I miscarried when he was 4 months old. My daughter was born 18 months after my son. My twin daughters were born 10 months after my daughter. At 21 I had 4 children under the age of 3 and did not know what an orgasm was!!
He was military, we moved alot. Never had any true friends.
After his first deployment he came home with condoms, which I might add he was fixed as was I way before he left, hence no need for us to use condoms.
Then he retired and we moved to Illinois. I hated it from the first moment. I went to school and became a nurse. Then the marriage started to fail again. I could not live there anymore. I took me and the kids to Maine (my home state). Nasty things said via phone, like "I love you but not in love with you" (typical WS stuff) 7 or 8 months later he moves up here. Everything is better. We by this house, and then WHAM! dday happens.
His A was a long term affair, lasted 2 years, and was over for 6 months before dday. I was so busy trying to raise the kids, do everything for him (even served him his meals), work full time, and parttime breeding yorkies and bichons, and blocking and walling off the abuse issues that would come up time to time. I did not stop to see what was infront of me. Sure I suspected the A, even went to MC where I was mind f'ed by the MC. He blamed the marriage issues on me, said my past made me paranoid when I told my H that I thought he was cheating. So along with all that, I then put 100% of what I had left to offer into making him happy. Did a plan A without knowing what plan A was, and did a darn good job. We renewed our vows in June of 04. He was still sleeping with her at the time, I still dont get that and probably never will. But with the plan A he eventually broke up with her, and I take credit too.
On dday all the pushed aside, shoved down abuse stuff hit full force. I was having flashbacks hourly of the abuse, and when not that it was images of him with someone else. I shut down. Just shut down, my screen name here tells you how I was. I was a shell of a human being. I wanted to die. I did not deserve to live. The only thing that stopped me from killing myself was my children. They are my inspiration, the one and only good thing that my existance on this earth had. I could not hurt them by doing that. Truly they were the only reason I am still here today.
I then decided that I had to deal with the abuse. My FWH meant nothing to me, in my eyes he was the monsters of my past. He hurt me more than anyone of them because I chose to love and trust him, I let him inside my protective walls and he hit me from inside. Many times through out the marriage I feel in my heart that he raped me. I would withdraw, curl into a fetal position, and cry. He knew about the abuse, knew when I would not want to, and still did his thing. Then the abuse would trigger. He has done this since dday also.
SO the choice was easy, me over him. That is the above healing I mentioned. I stayed in the marriage for the kids. They deserve a great childhood, and I would walk on hot coals for them.

Yes the pictures of the WS flash still but the constant ones dont. Each time I have to fill the gaps with happy stuff from my life with the kids or with him pre-a. I find busy things, come here, or do whatever. I still trigger pretty hard from the affair stuff. Last big one took me 3 days to overcome.

I have gone full spectrum on this board. I even have questioned my sexuality on here. I am quite an open book. I am here to heal from the affair. I have healed and am thriving in the abuse area, but still flounder alot with the affair and him being the monster now. I have now let my walls down for him, and am quite raw and afraid. Each time I start to think we are moving ahead, and I might be able to trust him, he breaks that trust and sends me whirling again. I do not know how much more I truly can take. My sanity is getting thin. I refuse to start back at square one. I will not allow myself to go back to the depression stage, if I see that then I will have to withdraw from him and shut him out for the last time. He walks a very fine line right now, and he does not get that. I hope he does. Regardless, I promised him I would stay married until the kids graduate in 3 and a half years. That is where we are right now.
JE

Boy that was hard and to think I can fit my whole life on way less than one page....LOL
JE