Mimi,

What questions he asked no questions it was yelling at me about how I did this and that and how I have not changed and on and on it went.....

I don't know what else I need to do to show changes. I have gotten two jobs I am taking care of myself and the kids. I don't ask him for anything. I was strong yesterday I stood my ground I didn't cower away and let him do what he wanted.....

I just don't see what else I can do or say .......

I told him I have changed and I am stronger and more capable now but that he was not around to see it..... He talked about the house being a wreck I agreed but explained as to why but also made the mention that any other time he had been there things were always nice and neat. He mentioned the fire damage I have done the best I can with that, it takes money to fix these things I don't have the money to replace cabinets and such right now he knows this.
He mentioned the dented fender on the car from when his mom backed into it.... When was I going to get it fixed, again I told him when I had the money plus if the car in the shop how was I suppose to get to work...... I work everyday and cabs are way expensive..... its all I can do to pay the bills more or less do these other things he keeps harping about.. So what the heck else can I do ...... He finds little things and just keeps harping on them and says see you didn't fix this or that..... Well sometimes this or that can't be fixed right away ...

he is still looking for excuses.......

Hurting


OK after reading your post I see what you are saying now about me justifying myself as well ...... I felt trapped and felt the need to defend myself. I have tried so hard to do the things he talks about and to a great degree I have done these things but sometimes other things take priority and he has to understand that. The truth is I work so many hours on little sleep as it is now. IBetween both jobs this week I will be putting in almost 70 hours. When can I find the time to fix the things he talks about more or less sleep .....

I just don't have any clue what to do ....

But... he did call yesterday and apologize for the things he said ... right ?? isn't that something kinda out of the ordinary for him to do ??

I am sure the OW is giving him grief right now,,, maybe you could give him a little sugar, not sure if this is the right thing to do....

Just a little, upbeat nice note.... not being a doormat but being appreciative of what he is doing, going through.... I don't know......

I am still of the thought that he just can't admit that he screwed up big time,,, no matter how bad things are for him right now... maybe you need to turn on the light on the lighthouse !!!

Just my suggestions,,, want you to be happy

Carnation,

yes he did call and apologize to me for acting like he did. In all honesty its only second apology I have gotten from him since all of this started. The first being Mar. 12 when he apoligized for hurting me.

I am not opposed to a note at all I just am not sure how I would word it to him.

How to word it as a lighthouse so to speak.......

Hurting

This is so hard for me to explain..and I might be totally off base in this...

First of all, of course he is NOT JUSTIFIED AT ALL IN HAVING AN AFFAIR OR IN YELLING AT YOU YESTERDAY!!! He is a WH..he is in the fog..he has put you in this awful position...of having to work so hard...if you can forgive him for all of this, he should be thankful....

However, I still think it's significant that he is THINKING about all of those issues...They are meaningful and important issues to him. He has handled his problems inappropriately, sinfully and wrongfully. However, I think he is STATING HIS ISSUES to you. He is not just WALKING AWAY INTO THE SUNSET..I'm sensing his PASSION. I'm sensing him STRUGGLING FOR A SOLUTION. I sense, like Carnation, that he is reaching out to you.

I would love to hear other opinions on this. Couldn't you SIMPLY SAY..." THANKS FOR CALLING TO APOLOGIZE.I'M WRITING THIS NOTE TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I CONTINUE WITH MY DESIRE TO WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE.. I HEARD YOUR CONCERNS YESTERDAY AND BELIEVE THAT THOSE ARE PROBLEMS THAT WE CAN WORK ON TOGETHER ONCE YOU END YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH "OW"...

Not sure how to word the perfect note either... even if it is the right thing to do... but I do not see where it could hurt any at this point...

Dang it... I think HopeandPray is no longer posting here... I sure loved the note he penned for me...

I just like the lighthouse theory.....hopefully wiser ones than I will post on this idea...

Like a thank you for being so nice and understanding type thing but not actually mentioning the marriage.... if that is possible... I also do not have all the facts about what he actually said yesterday.... short memory here, lol

I do think men like the admiration from us..... a little sugar may go a longs ways right now, plus I would actually try to give it to him and smile and walk away...

just me blambing.... not sure if it is the *right* thing to do....

Car

Mimi and Carnation,

I see what both of you are saying and you may be right about this.

I have to leave for work now and w on't be back until after 9 pm. I will think about this and try and figure out what to say.

Thanks,

Hurting

Hurting-
Just my "two cents", but I really like the note idea that
Mimi suggested- seems to give him some "appreciation" and
shows that you really did listen to what he said, as well
as sticking with the same boundaries you've already given
him (being done with OW).
It also shows that you are taking responsibility for making
some changes in the M also, and are willing to work with him.
I think it's a nice, subtle "reminder" with a little "light
house" enclosed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Good luck ! (I think things are looking up....)
Slammed

Slammed,

I am not so sure about things looking up but its a nice thought.

After thinking about this last night, I believe the apology and the reason he gave for wanting the money was to try and soften me up into giving it to him. I could be wrong for sure but it just seems that way.

I believe there are cracks in the A but not enough yet for him to make any changes.

I wish I could believe he was reaching out for me but I just can't without more actions from him. Words won't cut it anymore.

Maybe I am just afraid of letting my defences down who knows but he has hurt me even more everytime I let them down. Everytime I believed his words and let him back in my life he tore my heart out a little bit more by his cruel words and actions once he got what he wanted.

I have to protect myself from this ever happening again and if/when he ever shows the actions of doing what is right and moral ex. dumping the OW then and only then will I even open myself up to him again. My heart hurts enough without being trampled on again... I just could not take it again...So in the meantime my life continues as it is now. Taking care of myself and the kids, working my jobs and being happy in those things.

Hurting

Do you feel that you are doing as Steve Harley suggested?

PLAN A when you see him...

Or are you doing what FEELS RIGHT to you?

I understand doing what FEELS RIGHT to you, Hurting..I'm not kicking you..

I think there's some FIGHT left for your marriage...

I hate to see you give up...

you said:



I don't think YOU SHOULD BELIEVE HIS WORDS by any means...He remains a WS...

The BS does almost all of this work, Hurting...

You may feel like you are not up to it anymore..I can understand that...

You did not respond back to me...so maybe you want me to back off..not a problem..I will...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

I was not on here.. i am responding ... I am not giving up at all..... I am just backing off some.. If /when I see him I will do as Steve said and planA....

I am just so tired right now and w orn out from working two jobs and struggling ot survive and he does not care....

I just don't want to be hurt anymore. I have to protect my heart from his words and behavior....

I want more than anything to save my marriage, but I can't do it alone.....

I still believe there is hope and I don't believet is A will last. I just have to be patient and take care of me until it ends......

You don't need to back off at all..... I am listening ....


Hurting

Mimi,

I am eager to see this discussion continue. I get lost on how to plan A when they are being so unreasonable. It seems that Hurting merely stood up for herself and demanded that he do what he agreed to do.

I can see that hurting calling OW a bimbo is not helpful, I guess it is a DJ - I don't know.

I also see what you mean about WH still justifying and making excuses. I do see that he is looking for change, perhaps to give him some hope.

So what would you prefer that Hurting not have done, and what would you prefer she do at this point. I do respect your input as you have been through the wringer and pulled your marriage out of this mess.

I am going to lay down for a little bit... I have only had about 3 hours sleep in th last 24 hours thanks to work.....

I will get back to you later if you post...


Hurting

jean,

I also want this discussion to continue as I am at a loss right now....

The one thing that bothers me the most though is the changes have happened, he just refuses to see them.... But like I said to him he is not around so how can he see anything..... How can I show him something when he refuses to look?

I mean my God Iam working my butt off I am not asking him for anything. I am taking care of the kids , the house and everything with no help from him. Yup maybe th house is not immaculate but how can it be when I work 14 hours a day.... he just won't even look he see's what he wants to see... I just don't know how else to show him .....


Hurting

((( Healing )))

You poor thing, working two jobs.... But -- this must make you feel good about yourself and that is the BIGGEST thing.

I still think you should send him a little note (maybe call him on his cell ????) and thank him for .... um.... think of something !!! lol... I don't know, just think it would be appropriate to say something nice to him at this point....

Mimi ??? what do you think ??? do not want too much time to go by while this is still fresh.....

My very best to you, get some sleep !!!

car

He complained about the fire damage not being fixed yet-right? Can you ask his advice on some aspect of fixing it?

Or do you think he wanted to take YS clothes shopping? Maybe ask him if that was something he wanted to be in charge of?

Mimi,

As was thinking about this planA thing, I started out planA at the bank. I was nice, sweet and smiling but when he got carried away and started yelling and demanding 3000.00 yup i got angry and lost it.

It didn't last long and yes I called the OW a bimbo..... So yup I did LB on him. First time in a long time though... But with hte phone call he made after and apologized I did planA very well. Iaccepted the apology and spoke in a nice tone of voice. and we joked bit and he even laughed some....

So I tink I turned the LB'S around with the phone call. He heard an upbeat and forgiving person on the phone ,when I accepted his apology.....

So I think I did ok ......


Hurting

Jean,

I hav easked him about the fire damage before when he saw it the first time.. He told me what to get and I will but I have not had the time or money to take care of it....

As far as taking YS clothes shopping I am still leary thats even the truth. I think he has other plans for that money and once he thought about it he thought telling me it was for YS and clothes he thought I would give in and give it to him. Now if he had said well why don't we go together or something to make me see he was being honest about it I might would believe him.... I believe what he spouted at the bank was the truth, he needs ths money to pay attorneys and that he thought since he was the one who worked he deserved it. I think DS clothes w as an after thought...

But like I said to him at the bank these are the consequenses for your actions not mine and I will not take the blame anymore....... Ok I am going to sleep now I will check bac later ....


Hurting

Hurting (although like carnation, I too wish you would consider changing your name to something that reflects who YOU are now, which is SO much more than “hurting”)

I am going to respond in support of Mimi’s suggestions. I am a mediator and perhaps this might help you to understand that what I’m speaking of comes from a professional POV, as well as a personal POV from a woman who has lived through her own H’s LT affair during a drawn-out MLC.

OK? Ready? This won't be short. And I know you prefer short.

You are a strong and courageous woman. As so many people post to you time and time again, it is evident to someone reading your thread how much you have grown and changed.

---> What I just said was external affirmation for the changes that you know you’ve made inside yourself.

If I was to VALIDATE (not affirm, but validate) what you are saying, it would sound a little bit different. I would say something like: “hurting, I hear you saying that you’ve made a lot of changes in yourself.” OR “you see a lot of changes in yourself”

If I wanted to continue the conversation, I might ask you questions like: “what are those changes? How do you think they are impacting on your day-to-day life? What kinds of differences do you see in your life, and in your relationships with others?”

Do you see the difference between validating and affirming?

So often, we the BS are seeking to be affirmed – to get agreement – from our WS. And yet, they CANNOT do it in their current state. They are not in a positive and healthy frame of mind to affirm the positive and healthy in others. Every single little bit of hate and anger they spew at us – their BS – is really what they are experiencing for themselves, way deep down inside. It HURTS to be a WS. It is a horrible place to be. As you yourself recognized many posts ago.

It certainly HURTS to be a BS. There isn’t the same depth of self-loathing and self-hatred associated with this pain. As I’ve seen it, the WS feel less pain on the surface, but are cut up deeply inside, as they twist and turn to avoid their own harmful acts.

What I’m hearing Mimi suggest to you is that you validate what you hear from your husband. That’s not the same as agreeing with him, nor is it about condoning the A and its harmful effects on all of you. It is simply time to stop arguing with him.

Hear what he says: you weren’t there for me when I needed you. STOP saying “yeah but you could have said something…” or “yeah but look how you are hurting me now!”. Stop the arguing that is keeping you stuck in conflict with your H, wayward or not.

Unfair as it may seem to you right now honey, he needs to be heard by you – first and foremost. As I tell so many of my coaching clients, "seek first to understand before you seek to be understood" (Stephen Covey). The first part leads to the second. If you want someone else to understand and hear you, it is critical that you understand and hear them first. Why first??? Because YOU are the one that wants something from them. This is one of the most powerful, simple phrases I’ve ever uncovered that unlocks the secret to communicating with others, AND getting what we need, achieving our own objectives.

It seems simple and yet it is really really tough to do when our emotions are fully engaged. It’s easy to talk the talk and enormously challenging to walk the walk.

Oh my, I wish I could talk to you in person. Often a post will get lost in a babble of other voices, well-intentioned as they might be.

Well, let me try this angle: I know this stuff, it’s the professional work I do with clients. And yet, when it happened to me, do you think I did it well? HECK NO!!! When our own emotions are riled up, and we’re exhausted or in your case, when the kids are showing all the signs of living through the chaos associated with MLC and infidelity – it is called trauma for a reason.

We BS tend to get defensive and angry ("I will not take the blame anymore"). To feel defeated. And want to give up.

We cannot see the forest for the tree we’re smack up against. My own nose was so firmly pressed up against the tree that I had a nosebleed!

It’s OK. You are most definitely OK hurting. Whatever you did or did not do, at any point during this mess, this trauma, this devastating event in your life – it’s OK.

You are your own person sweetie, imperfect and stumbling along just as we all do during life’s hard journeys…wishing life could be kinder, wishing we didn’t have to make so many mistakes, wishing others (our WS) could just “get it”.

Sometimes people outside the mess can see the bigger forest. Sometimes they can help us to see this forest too. And make slightly different choices for next time.

Enough with the broad brushstrokes. I hope something in there helps. You might have to read it a few times over. I’m told I give people lots of food for thought. :>)

SPECIFIC OBSERVATIONS/Suggestions:

1. Yes. Categorically YES: My H needed me to hear him FIRST before he could recommit to the M. (Not fair, huh? :>) What that meant was that I said to him: “I hear what you are saying.”

This is validation. I said similar things to him many times. I listened to his list of grievances against me and our marriage. I really and truly listened. Without saying “yeah but”. I heard what it was like for him. Without defending or disagreeing.

2. I apologized for the ways I’d hurt him in the past, and disappointed him in the M. I said things like: “I’m sorry I wasn’t there when you needed me.”

AND I meant every word that I said.

3. I stopped thinking about the A in order to focus on my marriage and its recovery. That’s how I was able to apologize and mean every word of it. My apology was crucial to his finally being able to hear ME. I realized that the A was just a symptom, of problems with him and problems in our marriage. I let it go in order to focus on my goal – saving my marriage. (And I still made mistakes.)

By “let it go” I mean that I stopped thinking and obsessing about the A and focused on myself, my actions, my words, our marriage. My boundary about N/C never wavered, nor did my other marriage boundaries.

4. To your unspoken question -- Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! I have heard the most wonderful loving words back from my H…now. He loves me very much. He shows me in words and actions. He respects and enforces marriage boundaries, and I do not have to “watch” him – he watches himself.

He values our marriage equally so, if not more so than I do. He is in awe of what I “put up with” from him during that awful horrible time (where I too, made so very many mistakes). He cannot believe the things he said to me. He literally does not remember a lot of what he said. You can call it fog-babble or anything else. They were useless, empty words from a man that was lost, mired in his own misery. Who changed his mind every other day, every other minute sometimes. Who was desperate to escape from the insane path he found himself on, unable to stop himself from taking stupid step after suicidal step (as he described it later).

I take no joy in reading any part of another person’s “fog” nor do I condone speaking back with dismissive, hurtful language in return because I understand how difficult it is to live in that place of deep shame and fear. And ultimately adding to that shame and fear is hurtful to you both, and impedes your marriage recovery.

5. As so many others have said, I believe your H loves you still. It is very hard for him to admit that he could be so careless as to toss away someone he loves. He finds it enormously tough to understand how you could possibly still care for him. He is suspicious and resentful, and thinks you are playing tricks and trying to screw him. He is hostile and angry at everyone. (Himself most of all.) He is wondering if there is the slightest chance that he could have been WRONG about everything. He hates the world. He’s exhausted.

This is what chaos is like.

It’s why there really and truly is absolutely no point in focussing on the chaos. It’s why your way back into a happy, healthy marriage means focussing on what YOU can do and say now to keep yourself happy and healthy. This includes a certain amount of legitimate distraction (like spending time with and receiving love from family).

6. Things get worse before they get better. When your H is angry, it is because he is feeling really really scared. And he’d probably die before admitting that to anyone.

You can remind yourself of that FACT. Don’t take his words and actions personally as you are starting to do. Read through your recent messages and see how you are interpreting so many of his self-destructive actions/words as being ABOUT you rather than directed at you.

THIS IS YOUR CHOICE.

You can choose to see it that way, and continue to say “I don’t deserve this” (which you certainly don’t).

OR…you can choose to say “This is not about me. I am so sorry H is hurting and deflecting this onto me. I’m going to go to work now, or eat lasagne with MIL, or fly down a rollercoaster with DS going WHEEEEEEEE…” :>)

This is what detachment really looks like. It’s necessary to be detached in order to keep your love alive for WH, instead of suppressing your fear into anger and entitlement (ie. “I don’t deserve this, I’m working my butt off at two jobs while he’s with his bimbo”).

Honey – I’m suggesting this as the best strategy for your marriage, as a way to strengthen your love for yourself as well as for your H and family, and as the crucial steps right now that can keep you on a healing path, no matter what choices your H makes.

I think that he too is at a juncture. Having been through this personally, I see what Mimi is seeing. It's pretty obvious to me actually. And professionally, I can assure you that the mess comes pouring out long before people realize themselves that they are moving towards a reconciliation. Clients often feel despair right when I see the greatest hope. This is very common when your nose is smack up against the tree! (You are OK hurting, none of this is a criticism of who you are.)

He is starting to negotiate with you Hurting. If he didn't think there was a chance, he wouldn't be starting to negotiate with you. And I'm not talking about the D negotiations either.

(And BTW: it is significant to me that your mediator spent the time they did talking to your H about reconciliation.)

7. My final observation is one that I personally wish more people understood, and something else I’ve seen Mimi repeat recently: coming back into the marriage (reconciliation) is the very least of the work ahead of the two of you. Recovery is much harder than people realize. I used to read those same words and think “oh yeah…just get me out of He!! and I won’t care about the hard work involved!”

Honestly and truly – recovery tests you in new ways you haven’t yet uncovered.

Heal sweetie, really and truly heal. Limit your contact with your H and let your love express itself as care and compassion for someone that is destroying his life too, not just yours and your family. If it helps, think of him as an addict, fighting his addiction. That’s his battle and you can’t do a darn thing to help him with it, other than feel love and compassion from afar. The best way you can help you and your family is to remain firm on your boundaries and love him despite his lousy words and actions.

Stop arguing. Let him argue with himself instead. Yup…he’s doing that right now. Let him be. Validate what you hear when you hear it. You don’t have to agree with him. And agree with what you do agree with (like understanding that you weren’t there for him as he wished you had been earlier in your M).

You are a truly special woman. I hope you read these words and feel affirmed by them, from my heart to yours.

Sadly, it will be a long time before you hear them from your H. And I know how much that hurts. This is a really crappy thing to go through. Infidelity is so very very hurtful and harmful to everyone involved.

Take care…Merge

Hurting-
I think you handled the contact and phone call well, and
the "follow up" note or call sounds like a good idea.
Seems like you are getting a chance to push a little wedge
into the "crack".

I agree that WH saying he wanted to money to spend on son's
clothes sounds a little made up, and was probably a quick
response trying to sound like he had good motives. Glad you
held your ground on that.

Things aren't going well here today (updated my post) and
I'm tired and stressed. WH must be back to the "hot and
heavy" stage with OW so came home talking about what stuff
he wants to take from our house, proceeding with D and
selling our house <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> so I'm at a loss as to what to do.

Slammed