ForeverHers, I see you are around – will you also please take a look at this post for me please. I value your input and opinion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Suzet

Hi Suzet. I read through the thread and the links. I saw a lot of opinions flying around and, thankfully, some direct information from Dr. Harley on the subject.

What would you like my opinon about?

If it's "expose to the Other Person's Spouse" when an affair is ongoing....the answer is YES.

If it's "expose to the Other Person's spouse REGARDLESS of how well one's own recovery is going," then my answer would be that I agree with what K said and would disagree with what Melody said. The "struggling with recovery" that Dr. Harley was speaking about was the "struggle" of a spouse who can't seem to stop contacting the OP or who is still "in the affair," NOT a marriage that is struggling through the emotional issues and the trust issues that must be faced when a COUPLE is committed to, and working at, recovering their marriaage. Lacking any specific question from you, I will not expand upon that further at this time.

If the question is "should you expose what YOU considered an early stage Emotional Affair (as in YOU felt the emotions but your OM probably didn't feel the same 'intensity level' as you)" to HIS wife? Then the answer would be "no." It serves YOUR marriage and YOUR recovery 'no good.'

HOWEVER, you have (toward the end of that long thread) ADDED some important information that calls for the "no" answer given above to be "modified."

"NO CONTACT" means no contact for the rest of your natural life as a "consequence" of the affair. Certainly in your mind (if not in the OM's) you consider yourself to have had an Emotional Affair with someone other than your husband. Therefore, YOU must put into place "extraordinary measures" to insure that YOU don't have contact with him, regardless of whether or not he thinks he was having an affair with you or not.

The "contacts" that he initiates are a CLEAR violation of "No Contact." That you continue to work at the same place complicates things, but his calling you, etc., as a direct (not "accidental") action on his part MUST stop. One thing you can consider doing is to write him a clear "NO CONTACT" letter. Make it clear that you love your husband and that you want no contact whatsoever from him. Tell him that if he cannot honor your request then you will assume that there "is more to" his calling and his attempt to call his actions "friendship" and you will let his wife know that he is calling you, what happened, and that you want it to stop. If you choose to do this, send it to his home and put your name on the return address. Let HIS wife perhaps ask him why he is getting a letter from some other woman.

Being "nice" ends when there is a threat to your marriage. His calling is a THREAT. If I were your husband, I would be meeting this jerk and telling him in no uncertain terms to butt out of your marriage and the NEXT call or contact that he initiates, for whatever reason, will result in HIS wife getting a call, the HR department getting a call about continuing harrassment, etc.

In short, it STOPS or it gets exposed. HIS choice, but he does NOT get off "scot free." It's either complete No Contact or his wife gets to "join the party" of knowledge and the "joys" of marital betrayal.


One other "thing" that could be done to help faciliated "No Contact" is for you to quit your job and remove a "place of contact" from being in the picture. Another would be to move, or change phone numbers, etc. All things to help facilitate No Contact.

If you want more comment, give me some direction and I'll be more specific.

God bless.

ForeverHers, just to set the record straight, I called Dr. Bill Harley on his radio show and asked what he meant by this. He said that both spouses and the children SHOULD ALWAYS BE TOLD no matter what the stage of the affair, ended, active, whatever. Even if it is YEARS LATER. I then asked him if this should be a matter of POJA and his response was that after the spouses and the children are told any further exposures should be POJA'd. However, exposure to both spouses and the children were not POJA'd, but a matter of routine.

Melody, I appreciate the additional information. This is an instance where I do not agree with Dr. Harley as a "blanket statement." I would agree that there are some cases where informing the children "after the fact" might have a valid reason, but not in ALL cases. That is MY OPINION, and others, like Dr. Harley, are free to disagree with me. I think far more needs to be known about an individual affair, the circumstances surrounding it, the recovery efforts, the belief structures, etc. BEFORE someone should "expand the circle of knowledge" beyond what is necessary to end an affair and recover the marriage and the love of each spouse for each other.

Dr. Harley is undoubtedly coming at this advice from the perspective that MANY who engage in adultery have had parents who preceeded them in adultery and he may be looking at this as some "genetic" or "familial" tie that might predispose some to committing adultery. It might be, but then so is abuse or incest often a cause of problems (adultery) in the adult life of children of such environments.

So WHAT is the purpose of exposing, "even years later," when the marriage is recovered and the FORMER Wayward Spouse is a "new person" and firmly committed to the marriage and in love with their spouse? Crap!, if you'll pardon my exasperation, then why not just divorce and remove ALL possibility of another future adultery and let the children "fend for themselves?" Then no would have to wonder about "exposing" to them years after the repented fact and the recovered marriage.

Once again I think I need to reconsider staying on this system....it's getting to be almost 4 years since I began my own recovery journey and I'm a bit worn out from all this. I don't know though. I've tried to leave before, and then along comes someone in real need that seems to really need some help...and I stay a little longer.

Take a look at Todd's thread and you'll get a good idea of how pointless it is to even try sometimes.

Now along comes Harley with the advice to expose the long ago affair to the children even though there is "no need to know" and no ongoing affair.

"Tiring" does not come close to the feeling.

God bless.

FH, I don't claim to fully understand his reasoning for being so adamant about exposing to children, because as you say, every situation is different. He said that being told of his fathers [?] infidelity was a life changing experience for him. He got to see up close how damaging it was to his family and this lesson helped him grow into a man who has never committed infidelity. He feels this is a valuable lesson for children.

For me personally, my parents failure to tell me the truth caused me great moral confusion and self doubt as a child. Because no one would address the issue with me and give me some moral guidance I concluded early on that I must be a very stupid girl because what seemed so wrong to me [instinctively] was apparently not wrong to adults! Had my mother validated my instincts of right and wrong by being honest with me, I don't think I would have been so confused and filled with doubt. It would have been a great teaching opportunity.

Even so, I don't imagine that Dr Harley would advocate that EVERY parent tell their child, perhaps he would. But the bottom line is folks have to use their judgment.

I hope and pray you do not leave, FH. You are such a valuable asset to this forum that it would be a tragic loss. I was telling someone just last night how I save your posts because they are simply the most educational I ever read here. I have learned so much from you. And most of all I admire and respect your brave, persistent defense of Christianity. It means so much to so many here. I know what you mean about getting tired, and can fully understand your feeling.
God Bless, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ForeverHers, thanks for your response.

FH, the post and questions I specifically wanted you to give opinions on was the following (I’ve given the link to you on the first post but I will copy and paste it here for you (in bold):

” Dear members,

Since this topic has been raised (about exposure to the OP’s spouse after the A has ended), I would like to get opinions on this post I’ve posted on this thread yesterday… I would like to receive opinions on whether posters think:

1. Exposure to the XOM’s W was necessary in my specific situation or not?
2. If me and H did the wrong thing by not exposing to the OW?
3. Did we receive the wrong advice from my counselor regarding this?

As I’ve said yesterday, I still don’t feel 100% convinced that my situation didn’t justify telling XOM’s W (as suggested by my H and counselor) but at the same time I can understand their reasons for this. I’m in doubt and therefore I would appreciate opinions from MB members on this matter.

Before responding, please read my post first (the link above) to get the full background on my situation; the reasons why we never exposed to XOM's W and why this issue is still bothering me.

Please be honest with your opinions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks in advance,
Suzet”

FH, specifically pay attention to the parts I’ve underlined above.

FH, I agree with you in this regard… What I considered to be as an early stage EA (the emotions I felt for OM but never acted upon) is not relevant as far as exposure to OM’s W is concerned, BUT…

Whether or not my involvement with OM can be placed in the “Affair Category” and be considered as an EA or not, the fact remains that OM started acting inappropriately and crossed boundaries during our friendship. I participated and started responding on his flirtations, jokes and requests of photo’s (including photo’s of myself in swimwear). I just wonder if I did the wrong thing by not exposing these things (the inappropriate behavior of both of us) to OM’s W after the “friendship” has ended?

The reason why this is bothering me is because I know if I have been in her shoes, I would want to know about my H’s inappropriate behavior with a friend/member of the opposite sex (whether or not my H was involved in an A with the person or not - and whether or not his actions could be considered as an EA not…) Just the fact that he acted out of line and was inappropriate with a friend/member of the opposite sex, would be a big enough issue for me and I would consider such behavior as betrayal toward me and my M…

But that’s just ME and maybe some people out there will not view such actions as very “serious” or threatening to a spouse or marriage… I don’t know. I do realize the intense withdrawal I went through and the amount of guilt & pain I felt after the “friendship” ended, was excessive and totally out of proportion with regards to my involvement with OM and the type of involvement (beginning stages of EA). From what I’ve read on these boards, I often get the impression that my feelings and struggles was similar to those of FWW’s who was involved in full blown EA’s and/or PA’s. However, I realize the OCD with associated anxiety and depression I was diagnosed with (and receive chronic medication for now), contributed to my emotional instability and excessive & obsessive thoughts and feelings about OM at the time. So this is all things I have to take into account and I realize that I probably view and experienced my past involvement as much more serious and damaging than it was suppose to be...

My H often told me the fact that I'd develop such intense feelings for another man and became emotionally attached & attracted to him, hurt him more than anything else and was the most difficult part he had to overcome.. He said although the knowledge about the inappropriate actions (photo’s, flirting, jokes on e-mail) were hurtful and very disappointing , it would be much easier for him to dealt with afterwards if I didn’t became emotionally attached and developed such intense feelings for the OM too.

Anyway, this was just to give you some more background.

FH, like Melody, I also hope and pray you won’t leave. You are indeed a valuable asset to these boards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,
Suzet

about exposure to the OP’s spouse after the A has ended

Suzet, the following are my opinions. Ultimately, though, it will be YOU who must "decide" and "be at peace" with yourself that you have the done the best that you can for your marriage and hopefully for the OM's marriage...NOT "perfect," just "the best you can."

1. No, I don't believe that exposure to the OM's spouse was "required" by YOU. It was "required" by the OM, but you "Did your part" in ending the "friendship" BEFORE it went beyond "playful banter and curiousity" into a full affair. YOU took yourself out of the OM's wife's marriage....period.

2. No, you and your husband did NOT do anything wrong in not exposing your "friendship" with the OM to his wife. Again, that "Honesty" falls on the shoulders of the OM, UNLESS he will NOT honor your request for NO Contact. If he won't (which was the thrust of my previous post), then he get's "one last chance" to honor your "No Contact Request." The letter I suggested would require NO return acknowledgement. The "acknowledgement WILL BE "No Contact." Any subsequent contact by him will be taken as NOT "Friendship" but as a direct attempt to "mess with YOUR marriage" and then you WILL inform his wife of everything BECAUSE he will have violated your Boundary based solely in his own selfishness.

3. No, you didn't receive "wrong advice." Advice is advice. YOU have to sift ALL the advice in the context of YOUR marriage. YOUR "goal" is to save YOUR marriage, not his. I understand your "projection" of what you would want if you were in the OM's wife's shoes, but if you were going to act on such a feeling, then it should have been done at the same time you decided to end "your part" in the friendship....AS A MEANS to ensure or assist in his honoring your request for "No Contact." Believe me, many people, especially men, consider "flirting" and "sexually provocative talk" as a normal part of "men being men." It has some to do with testosterone, some with "societal norms," and most to do with a poor set of standards of MARRIED behavior and lack of understanding or commitment to the ROLES of a married man (and increasingly also true for women) versus a single man (not to mention God's commands).


I’m in doubt and therefore I would appreciate opinions from MB members on this matter.

Suzet, "doubt" serves no useful purpose. You CHOSE "one path" to recovery and it has worked for your marriage. There WERE several paths that you could have chosen, do you "doubt" that the one you chose SERVED to save and strengthen your marriage?

No, I don't think so. So the "doubt" you are struggling with is Satan's way of trying to tell you that you "aren't 'good enough'." That's ridiculous. God forgives ALL of your sins and "poor choices," not just some of them. They are forgiven TOTALLY.

Now, you want to wrestle with idea that you SHOULD have told the OM's wife "back then." Okay, let's assume you are right and it WOULD have served a purpose in ending YOUR EA with her husband. They STILL might have divorced after you told her, because she might be just as unforgiving as another Betrayed Spouse I know of on this system or had a "revenge affair" of her own in response to your revelation as the husband of another WS that I talked with for over a year did...and it, too, ended in divorce because he "couldn't handle it."

What I am trying to say, Suzet, is that you CAN "what if" things to death and NEVER get a definitive answer because the "what if's" are ALL hypothetical. You, me, everyone, has to deal with TODAY. TODAY is all that God has given us to "concern ourselves with because the problems of today are sufficient unto the day." The past cannot be changed. The future is in God's hands. WE cannot change the past, but we CAN shape the future by walking with God and by the choices we make in facing the challenges of TODAY.

That issue of "TODAY" is the idea behind my earlier suggestion to tell the OM, who "likes" to interfere in your marriage by ignoring your previous request for No Contact, that IF he contacts you again, TODAY will be dealt with by letting his wife know ALL the facts from "back then" to "today," because you are protecting YOUR marriage.




Okay, the first part of this quotation I am going to skip over because I think I addressed it in the preceeding response. However, the second part of this is something that I will comment upon because it might help you and your marriage. The part I will address is:

"My H often told me the fact that I'd develop such intense feelings for another man and became emotionally attached & attracted to him, hurt him more than anything else and was the most difficult part he had to overcome.. He said although the knowledge about the inappropriate actions (photo’s, flirting, jokes on e-mail) were hurtful and very disappointing , it would be much easier for him to dealt with afterwards if I didn’t became emotionally attached and developed such intense feelings for the OM too."

This statement by your husband is REAL and TRUE. Understand that you did not progress to a Physical Affair, so he does NOT have to "process" that part. But it is also true that IF you had not had the emotional involvement there would have been NO affair of any kind and your husband would not have to "deal" with anything.

Let me tell you from my own experience, BOTH are very very hard to deal with. I, like most men, am VERY visual and there is little more "visually impacting" that the mental movies of your wife rolling around in the sack with someone else AND ENJOYING IT. I try to keep those images tightly locked away in a dungeon in my mind.

Photographs....I had photographic proof of my wife's affair. THAT is what finally brought me to accept that she could have an affair and WAS deeply in an affair. Believe me when I tell you that a "swimsuit" would have been nothing more than a "Sears Catalogue" compared to the actual photos I had.

Beyond that my wife had a STRONG emotional attachment to the OM. Enough of an attachment that she had already accepted a proposal of marriage from him and wore an engagement ring (his mother's) when they were together. Enough of an attachment that when he asked her what she wanted, she said, "I want you" while I was standing 2 feet from both of them. THAT's when I KNEW my marriage was over and when I told her to pack up and leave TODAY (that day almost 4 years ago now).

So I REALLY understand what your husband is saying about the Emotional Attachment being "the most difficult part for him." Of course it was, by the grace of God he didn't have to ALSO deal with the physical part. God MADE men to be "visually oriented." That's part of the "testosterone" difference. Give a woman testosterone therapy and she'll get just has "horny" as most men. But that doesn't mean that men can't be "hurt" emotionally, or can't place a high value on the emotional component of their marriage (and relationships). Men can, and often do, respond more to the emotional since we've been "trained" by the "movements" to connect with our "feminine side," if you understand what I mean.

It WAS your emotional attachment to the OM that was YOUR "marital unfaithfulness." Of course that's going to be the "hard part" to deal with in recovery. But you both learned a valuable lesson and it sure looks like your marriage is a "Recovery Success."

Understand where your husband is "coming from." When any of us gives our heart to our spouse, we give our trust and our vulnerability. "Being emotionally vulnerable" is NOT "manly." Exposing ones self to emotional trauma is "risk" we all take in marriage and when we ARE hurt though betrayal of that trust and and the intentional stomping on our vulnerabilities, the WALLS of protection shoot up and "lowering those walls again" take a lot of time and effort and learning to trust our spouse again. To put it badly...."burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me." YOUR concern needs to be your husband and YOUR marriage, not the Other Man, his wife, or their marriage.

So keep the OM and his marriage TOTALLY out of your marriage. That includes changing jobs if needed to ensure he is "all the way out." I know that might be hard, but you asked for my opinion...and my opinion is YOUR marriage before ALL else...including a job.




Suzet, I truly appreciate your words. I would suggest that being an "asset" or a "hindrance" is in the "eye of the beholder." But there are many people on the system who are trying to help others and are an asset. It is not necessary that I, or anyone else for that matter, post on MB. It (MB) "Did Fine" before I joined, and it will do fine long after I and all the current crop of posters are long gone. For me it's simply the "next stage" and trying to answer the question "have I stood ready to comfort others with the comfort that I myself have received from God" and "have I done enough" and "is it time to leave this part of my journey behind as completed and now detrimental to MY marriage if I continue?"

People like Todd and Mkeveydaycnt (on the Recovery thread) make it abundantly clear that they DON'T consider what I say to be an "asset," so you can see that it might be for some but not for others. So at what point do I redirect my time and efforts (we all have only 24 hours each day) to something else? It's a question that has been asked by many before, is being asked of myself now, and will be asked by others in the future. It, too, is part of the process. We all came here "For ourselves and our own need," and we stayed to try to "return the favor of needed help in a time of emotional upheaval and turmoil."

There IS a time for every season.... That is my decision struggle right now....is it time for the "season" to change.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful response – it’s much appreciated and helped to address my internal concerns. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know I have to decide and be “at peace” with myself, but it does help to get some input from “wise” and Christian posters.

FH, I certainly don’t doubt the path I have chosen to save and strengthen my M – I view me and my M “recovered” although me and my H still have marital issues we’re struggling with. However, these issues are totally unrelated to my past betrayal (I discussed these issues on an earlier thread last month). Our marital issues are basically because of external difficulties and circumstances we currently experience in our life (as discussed on another thread). I know these things are just temporary and will get resolve as soon as our life can turn “back to normal”.

You are probably right that Satan is trying to convince me that I did not “good enough”. I was relatively at peace with the whole thing about not exposing to OM’s W, but the recent contact of OM (and the discussion on this forum about exposure to the OP’s spouse) raised these concerns and doubts in me again.

I don’t know if you’re aware of our circumstances, but more than 2 years ago my H was victimized and unfairly dismissed at the company I currently work for. My H is still unemployed, wasn’t successful in finding another job and the court case is still in progress. My H stands a good chance to be re-instated at this company (hopefully soon) and be compensated. Unemployment in our country is very high and there are other factors (such as affirmative action) which make it very difficult for me and H to get other jobs. However, recently my H was approached by another company to apply for a job. This company is relatively far from here, so if my H is successful in getting this job, I can look out for a job there as well and then we can possibly move to a city nearby. Actually my H informed me that this company also has a vacant post for a PA (Personal Assistant). This job is in my field of experience, so I’m going to apply at this company too. If things can work out and we can both get the jobs at this company, it will be a God-send and certainly the answer to our prayers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings to you FH...whatever you decide to do. You know what is best for you...and if it's time for you to 'move on' from MB, then be it so. But many here will certainly miss your posts and input!

Take care,
Suzet

The company where my H applied for the job phoned him yesterday. He made it on the short-list and must go for a job interview on Thursday morning. I think my H stands a very good chance to get this job. Please hold thumbs for him!

I was also phoned this morning for a job-interview at the same company my H applied to last week (see posts above). My interview is scheduled for next week Thursday (my H's interview is tommorrow). Please pray for us guys! I can't believe this is happening to us! As I've said before, unemployment in this country is very high and many things (such as affirmative action; political circumstances etc.) are againsts us in this regard. If we can get these jobs it will indeed be a miracle and a blessing from above (especially after more than 2 years of financial difficulties, stress etc!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet,
I will be praying for you both!

God Bless, Suzet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remembering you and your husband in prayer. In God's will and in God's timing....may God use these interviews and jobs to work for good in the lives of you and your husband and in your walk with Him and as rely on Him, for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ, and in His name.

God bless.


P.S. just out of curiousity...what country?

2BNormal, Melody and FH - thanks for your prayers and blessings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH, we are living in South-Africa.

Suzet

Don't forget to post and tell us all how the interviews go - and the result of course.

Good luck.

Georgina

FH,
Please don't leave us yet. I know it's tiring, but there are a lot of here who still need you. You mission here is not complete.
Your post's to Suzet were awesome, but, do you somehow think that folks like myself didn't also read and take to heart what you have said?
A lot of God's work often goes unoticed by many, but , I see what He has done with your wound. He will never waste a good wound when He can turn it around and use it for His purpose. Please allow Him to continue to use you and your wound for His purpose. You have much to impart. All, I might add, as His intention for you.
Keep the faith my friend, to those who have been given much, much will be expected.
Yours in Christ,
Jerry

Update:

My H’s job interview went well and the job was offered to him. My H rejected the job because the salary and benefits the company offered him were insufficient and very disappointing. However, my H will propose to work for them on temporarily basis (contract) until he has been re-instated in his old post (at the company I currently work for) to at least ensure a fixed monthly income while he is not re-instated yet. But we’re not sure if the company (where my H was interviewed) will let my H work under such conditions. We’ll wait and see…

My H’s attorneys advised him to not accept any permanent job offer until his unfair dismissal case has been settled in court and/or until he has been re-instated in his previous job with back-pay (up to the day of dismissal – which is 27 months ago already) and compensation. If my H accepts any permanent job offer at this stage, his court application for re-instatement will be cancelled and he will only receive back-pay for a maximum period of 24 months. In such a case, no compensation and additional costs will be paid out. According to the attorneys, part-time or contract work will not have any influence on my H’s court application for re-instatement.

As far as my job interview of last week Thursday goes: It seems the job will not be offered to me – the company hasn’t approached me yet with an offer. From the interview I’ve got the impression that my specific work related experience and skills will not fit in with the requirements of that specific job. The general benefits the company give to their employees is also very disappointing and will not be sufficient for me and my H’s plans to start a family in the near future. Oh well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

(((((Suzet*)))))

Thanks FH. Yes, it was disappointing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. As you’ve said in an earlier post, in God’s will and timing…

This morning my H has spoken to the Human Resources Department of the company where he was interviewed and they informed him that the company will not be able to temporarily appoint him on a part-time (contract) basis. So that is not an option.

Anyway, I will send an update to this thread as soon as we receive any news about my H’s court-case and/or re-instatement.

Blessings,
Suzet

Update on my H’s job situation:

Last week my H received some discouraging and disappointing news: Management informed my H that he have to go through the whole court case procedure in order to be re-instated at his previous job where he was unfairly dismissed. In such a case (re-instatement) my H will get his job back and receive back pay from the day he was dismissed (at this stage my H is unemployed for 27 months already) and be compensated for other financial losses we had during this time.

Management further stated that the only way this whole case of my H can be resolved and settled without going to court will be if my H become willing to negotiate for an amount of money in stead of re-instatement…which my H is not interested in. My H is still very young (34 yrs) and it will certainly be a big mistake to settle for money in a country where unemployment is very high and where “affirmative action” still apply and prevent more and more white men in this country from getting jobs.

Regarding the court case: My H’s attorneys are still waiting for a signature before the final documents can be handed in at the Higher Labor Court (in order to get a court date). The relevant person has chance until end of this month (April) to sign, so we are still waiting… We really hope it will not take months this time before my H will be finally issued with a court date…

Sometimes this really feels like a long dragged out nightmare which seems to not come to an end… And I pray things will eventually work out this year so that me and my H can proceed with our dream to try and conceive a child of our own through the expensive in-vitro fertilization treatment - ICSI.