Milk:

Where does this come from? What would make him think of you in this way? What would make ANYONE think of you in this way? Speaking up for yourself? Not allowing someone treat you disrespectfully?

Milkshake,

My only comment is to keep things up the way you are doing. He's in the pursuit after you now, this is better than the opposite. I've seen a few situations here where once the BW sees the WH thinking of fixing things they unintentionally smother him with requests and encouragement to return to the family. Some men retreat the moment they see this happening. It will take him some time to find himself again and understand what happened.

Good luck.

Wow, Milk- Didn't have a chance to get online over the
weekend, so am surprised to hear your news (and excited
for you).
I think you're absolutely right in having mixed feelings-
and understand being excited about the possibilities of
working things out, as well as hesitant and cautious of
STBXH motives and motivations.

I agree with all here, who say take it very slowly.
Seems like STBXH is in a big hurry, but you can control the
pace here and don't need to rush at all.
I think you can express this to your STBXH in saying that
you are cautious, and will need to take "baby steps" in
moving forward.
It's hard to know what has caused this change in STBXH's
heart or mind. You may not get to the "bottom" of it, but
sure seems like some serious talking is in order, and he
should be able to be "straight" with you in what he is
feeling, thinking, wanting, and his reasons.

I don't think it would hurt at all for you to be very
straight forward too, in saying that you don't want to get
hopes up, don't want to get hurt, don't want DS3 to be hurt
or disappointed either, and let STBXH know that what you
would need and what you would want in order to proceed.

Seems like he needs to "work his way back" by showing steady, consistent actions (not just words), by getting himself into counseling for his issues, agreeing to do MC with you for both of your issues, and by being agreeable
to take things as slowly as you want to.

I don't think he should be back at home anytime soon, and
think you should really continue to be protective and
careful with all your assets, bank accounts, credit cards,
property, etc. in case finances are part of the motive here.

Also, I think you're very smart in being protective of DS3.
I'd keep things as "normal", and keep him as removed from
the situation as possible until you feel really comfortable
about it.

I think continuing to be independent, strong, and firm will
gain his respect and protect you as well.
I don't think there's anything wrong politely with letting him know that this isn't a good night for dinner due to DS3's class-

I'm so excited for you, Milk and will hope and pray that it works out for a true, full recovery !
Slammed

LOL!!! I'd say Confused is right on the money with this one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There's nothing I can add, Milkshake, you're getting such good advice and your head is obviously on STRAIGHT. Just want to say congrats, well done for taking it cautiously, and keep us up to date.

Thanks everyone. I feel very strong and fortunate knowing that I have you guys to give advice to and support me.

Now, here is the update. Basically, nothing!!! In the end, I just simply replied to his email yesterday afternoon saying

"Actually, tonight is not a good day because DS3 has his class and we will be late."

I did not suggest to pick another day or anything, but did not think this sounded too cold either. Besides, he should know by now that DS3 has his classes on Tuesdays (I have told him about DS3's Karate classes several times before).

What was his reaction to this? Absolutely NOTHING!!!

I could tell he is upset, b/c I am not agreeing with him or jumping onto his idea of reconciliation right away.

Shortly after he moved out last May, one day he called me several times at home, but I was out so did not get his messages till I got home late. Since it was too late, I just called him back the next day. But in the mean time, he left nasty messages - one said "since you are not talking to me, I am going to talk to a lawyer!". I called back and told him "but H, I was out - how am I supposed to answer your calls if I was not here???"

He is very impulsive, and short-tempered. If he does not get what he wants right away, he gets mad. I am pretty sure he has OCD.

This thing bothers me, b/c it appears H is not very serious about the recovery. If he really wants, he should not get mad at me just b/c I did not say "yes" right away, doesn't he?

Having said that, since I haven't officially answered to his "request" of giving our M another chance, I want to send him an email today. I revised a little bit - my questions about how serious he is or why he changed his mind, etc., I figured I can ask in person, so removed them from my letter.

---------
Dear H:

Hope you received my email yesterday about DS3's class. It was his last Karate class and he did okay - he was a bit distracted. In April, he is starting his swimming classes and hopefully he will be more interested in them.

I have given a lot of thought on what you suggested. I agree that having both parents is the best thing for DS3. I know he misses having a male figure in the house.

At the same time, I do not want to break his heart again. He is now used to his new routine, and the last thing I want to do is to get his hopes high up and crash them - that will scar him so much.

I think we can have dinner or something alone, without DS3, sometime to talk in person. What do you think?

Milk
--------------------------------

What do you think? Some told me that having dinner with DS3 (three of us) should not be a big deal - do you agree?

I agree that any talking needs to be done without DS around. But before I would agree to a meeting/date, are you comfortable about his reasons to want to reconcile? I would not bother with a face to face until some more long distance conversation has happened.

Why and how does he plan to recommit ?

Thanks Jean for your input.

Some have advised that given H's personality and all, maybe I should just "go with the flow" to see how it will work out. They say maybe I can just have dinner with him and DS3 together, but not bringing any R talk up. If he does, then we can talk - they say b/c H is probably wants to "see" if this is going to work. I know that's not the way, ideally H is very committed to our M and everything, but at the same time, I know that is HOW he thinks. He wants to "feel" he is getting feelings for me back or something. Well, that is in case he does not have other secret agendas in mind behind this reconciliation.

I am so confused. This is soooooooooo hard!!!

bump... I feel I need to get back to H.... and I hate feeling that he has the power again...!!!

Hi Milk...hang in there

I do not agree with this at this point. Maybe later down the road as you try to reconnect.

Did you send the longer explanation already? If you didn't I don't think you need to. You offered a perfectly reasonable explantation. DO NOT hand him the power back. He cannot and should not control you. He is pulling your strings...he is trying to manipulate you. He sounds much like my WH. He made an offer that you did not accept and now he will pout until he gets his way.

I would stay away from playing "happy family" until he commits to M. It will allow him to cake eat, give your son false hopes and inhibit your ablity to have an honest conversation with you son right there.

If you want to take control of the situation to help guide him I think thats fine. He made an offer...you declined (for good reason). Now you can make a counter offer.

WH,
Sorry Tuesday didn't work out. I am available to meet with you to discuss a plan for our M on (whatever night).

Milk

Then line up a babysitter and don't even make it an option to bring DS along for this discussion.

Just my thoughts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks confused. No, I did not send my long letter. And I never sent him the other onw (listing my questions for him) either. In a way, I am glad. I am still neutral, since all I said to him yesterday was that we could not have dinner together (for a real good reason).

I like your idea of sending him a short email. That is what I am going to do. But do you think I should mention that "we can discuss a plan for our M"? I do not want to scare H off...

How about if I just say:
"WH, sorry Tuesday did not work out. I am available on XXX instead".

What do you think? Then if he asks whether DS3 will be there, I can say "maybe we can just meet alone" or something? What do you think?

UPDATE:

I ended up sending the letter I wrote, b/c I thought about it again and felt that if I just send the shorter version, H will never get my "point" of not wanting DS3 around and that it is not like I am 100% open to his idea of reconciliation YET. I thought if I just provide the alternative date, he would just pop over (he is not good at understanding something that is not clearly laid out).

Anyway, I sent the email this morning. An hour later (okay, so he is not acting like he is in such a rush anymore), he sent me this email back:
-------------------
I agree - we should start slowly.....Do you think XXX (our friend) can pick DS3 up Friday so we can have dinner at the house? I have chicken breast and bread crumbs if you can supply the salad...

H
------------------

Now, the impression I got from this? BAD. He does not even want to go out? This definitely makes me think that he is having a money issue. He is too cheap to take me out to the dinner? If I can supply the salad??? Whaaa??

Or am I being unreasonable to feel this way? Do many WHs act like this?

I am already being discouraged about us trying...., both of us need to adjust our expectations BIG TIME...

I know, expecting him to show tears in front of me apologizing for what he did to me and DS3 and giving me a bouquet of flowers is unfortunately unrealistic and is something that happens only in the movie, but still.....

Hmmm...you could take it a couple different ways. I'm sure the experts will weigh in soon...here's my .02

Dinner w/ 2 of alone at the house:
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Time alone you can discuss personal issues
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />He is too cheap to take you out / doesn't want to be seen in public w/ you.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Get a good dose of milk's plan A to see changes and what he has been missing. (Don't forget to "set the stage" at home)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />The bedroom is too close might want a "booty" call.

Remember this IS NOT A DATE it is a negotiation. He contacted you to see if you were interested in working on M.
This is the time to listen to his offer. Consider his words and his action, think about it then get back to him with what is acceptable or not acceptable.

There is no renting a movie and making out on the couch until he has a plan. He is probably nervous too. If he is just coming out of the fog he still probably has not "gotten it" yet. Look at his body language and actions, he is a mixed bag of emotions, he probably doesn't know which end is up.

BTW I think you are doing great!

Thank you confused. Oh boy, this is very hard ALREADY!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know, I should not think of this like a date YET, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> as WH is probably not ready for that either, but as a woman, trying to "reconnect" with someone who demanded that we have dinner at home and he will bring the chicken breast and asking me to provide the salad...., is just not very romantic nor sexy nor sincere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Also, having dinner at home alone means the bedroom or the couch is so nearby. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think he is being cheap. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He makes decent money, yet always claimed he has not money, and everytime he gave me the support check, he asked me to deposit it ASAP, b/c he was afraid that it would bounce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I really do not think he has any money left in his account.

So, if that is the case, of course I should not EXPECT him to take me to an expensive restaurant or anything. I understand. But again, that is only IF he is sincere yet just having a money issue. IF he wants to get back together b/c that is convenient for him, since I make good money..., then I do not want that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I think the toughest thing to remember is that you are still dealing w/WH not your HUSBAND.


I'm not sure about this but....whatever gets him to the barginning table is fine. Sometimes its because WS misses the kids, or the financial burden or misses the comfort of home. He is still a WS, all he knows is that he is not happy, he is not comfortable and he doesn't know why.

Whatever motivates him to engage and take the 1st step so be it. It is just that a 1st step...not the end result. As long as he walks the walk and does what you need him to do, end A, establish NC, have a plan to work on M, spend time together, show commitment to M. Its a process. His brain has been altered. He has spent so much time convinencing himself that you are the cause of all evil and he didn't want the marriage.

Go slow, accept no less than you deserve, speak your mind, stand up for yourself, your child,your H and your marriage. Think of WS like invasion of the body snatchers you know H is in there somewhere he's just does not have control himself which is why HE should not control you or your marriage.

What's happening?? I posted TWICE yesterday and they are GONE!!!

Even my thread started to act crazy...., could be the spring season...

Okay, so hopefully this one will be posted.

UPDATE:
I simply replied to his email by saying "okay, XXX (my friend) can watch DS3 this Friday. I will go pick him up after dinner".

I wanted to keep my email light and casual. And also I wanted to IMPLY that there is nothing waiting after dinner and I am not planning on spending the entire evening with H, by saying that I need to go pick up DS3. Hopefully H got my point. Even if he did not, since I already mentioned, if I start to feel uncomfortable or something, I can always tell him it's time for me to go and H has to leave.

Strange, I have wanted reconciliation so badly, but the way he proposed it and has been acting totally turned me off and I am not excited about Friday at all.

I understand that most WHs will not come back remorsful. But from what I have seen and heard, when WS's come back at least with a bit more emotions, it appears the recovery goes much more smoothly and faster, while when WS's come back simply b/c they did not have other options, often they are still mad, confused, arrogant, and selfish - and I have seen cases where even after several years they still struggle with the recovery.

I am sorry, but I am not planning on wasting my next 2 years on recovery. I have gone through ****** and come a long way. Even though I do not like that H never apologized or act humbly, or that he is being extremely cheap to want to have dinner at my place, I will try to be pleasant on Friday. I will try not to bring up the R subject YET. I will rather observe him and see if he looks sincere. I do not want any half measures, b/c then the reconciliation is bound to fail. I hope HE will bring up the subject. And at that time, I will see if he can look into my eyes. I also want to know if he has been sober for the past 10 months (both addictions). I will not ask this question, unless he starts to talk about his issues, though.

My plan is to meet with him alone this Friday and possibly 1 or 2 more times, without saying anything about our M or his issues. IF he does not address these issues within the first 3 times of our meeting alone, to me he is not being serious. And I would not like to think that we can reconcile. But I will try to make the first one as light as possible, b/c I am sure he will be feeling very uncomfortable to be with me alone after so many months.

Suggestion...

If you're not comfortable with him having dinner at your house...say so.

"H, I wanted to suggest that we go out someplace to eat instead of eating at the house. Honestly, I'm not comfortable yet with having you in what has become MY home. I think it's still too early and we have too much to sort through before I would feel comfortable with this. Let's go to XXX and have dinner there instead, so that we can meet and talk in a 'nuetral' place."

COMMUNICATION is the key in everything...and a good part of that is simply not hesitating to clearly communicate what YOU want/need.

If he can't afford dinner you could always meet him for coffee. The idea of getting together was to have a discussion not consume food.

Now I will weigh in with something I read somewhere:

When you meet with your H, he might say something like "Can't we just sit down and talk this out?" Sitting down is more conducive to relaxation and giving in. Standing up,you are "standing up" for yourself, "standing" for something. Less easily swayed. Psychologically you have the advantage.

I carry that further, that if you HAVE to sit down, sit on a hard chair; not on a sofa or an armchair. Maybe you could have the discussion with your H while walking. Coffee from Starbucks & a stroll holding your lattes. Arm and arm with each other would be fine, cozy but not "sitting down."

Or -- if you live in a city that has a nice art museum, you could meet H there and walk around inside chatting about what he has in mind while your son is being cared for by your friend in their home.

Just a suggestion. Personally, I'd be suspicious given his history. Which is why the "standing" suggestion. I wish you luck!

milk,

I remember when my W wanted to come back to the marriage. I think she had thought about it for a while but with us being separated I didn't know it. When she told me that she wanted to give our marriage another chance I was floored. I didn't know what to do. Inside I was doing backflips but outside, like you I didn't want to seem too enthusiastic.

For her the process had been going on for a while. She was a little hesitant because she wasn't sure how I would react and being a proud person, her pride would take a little hit.

I don't know what your H's motives are or if this is another false recovery but just wanted to give you a perspective from my POV.


Did you H used to eat dinner with you? Was that something that you wanted him to do but didn't happen? Maybe he is trying to do the things he "THINKS" you want him to do. I'm just fishing.

My advice is take it slow.

God Bless,

Doug

Thanks owl, confused, bellevue, and doug. All of your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I do not think H would force me into anything after dinner, and even though my girlfriend is worried about it, that's not really my concern. I guess I will feel uncomfortable with him alone anyway, as we haven't been alone for a very long time. In the public, though, we will probably have more "control" over us emotionally, so that might help. Again, though, I think the issue is that H does not have money, so maybe I should not push for "eating out" at this point. We used to go out a lot, so if he had a choice, he would have probably chosen to go out - well I do not know anymore.

H called this morning for no particular reasons. He just asked me if everything is okay. I said everything is fine. He asked about DS3, so I told him how he was yesterday. Then he asked if I would have the salad ready..., so I said yes. ???

H likes to cook (he is Italian), so he is not expecting me to cook this Friday - well he'd better not.... I am a good cook too, but hey, again, after seeing so much water gone by under the bridge, he should not expect me to cook for him the first time we meet alone in person!!!

I guess this is where the difference btw men and women kicks in..., H is basically being very practical - in his mind, "hey, I think I am kind of tired of living alone so why don't we just reconcile - I have the chicken so let's have that for dinner to start with", whereas I cannot take things that casually and expects him to act more remorsefully AND in a romantic way. But okay, baby steps...

Again, I will see how things go...