Milk-
I think your correspondence with WH and the way you are
handling things has been really good. I know, from my
situation here, that it is exciting and surprising to
find that WH seems to want to reconcile, then it's also
scary because you start thinking of all the possible
motives, reasons, old patterns and problems, and you
aren't sure how to even start !

Going slowly, keeping control, and "calling the shots" seems
to be the best way to keep things at your own pace and
comfort level, and to show WH that you are not "falling down
at his feet with joy over his coming back", but that he's
going to have to WORK for it.

Nothing really new here. I was so exhausted and stressed
last week from trying to figure out WH's sudden "change of
tune", and being physically sick, that I decided I was just
going to back off and remove myself from the situation as
much as possible, quit trying to talk to WH about anything,
and quit trying to figure things out, at least for awhile
to give myself a break !
Don't know what it might mean, if anything, but am curious
in noticing that WH has been sticking close to home, and
not getting the constant calls from OW in the past several
days. Will update my post-
Slammed

Milkshake -

This is my first post on your thread, I don't know your entire story but am quite interested as my WH is making reconciliation noises as well. I will try to read your entire thread.....

I know every sitch is different....and I don't know by just reading a couple of posts here but has the A been over for a long time between your WH and the OW? How did it end? was there a NC letter?

Thanks muchly & good luck!! This part is very hard. Plan B has been a pretty good comfort zone!

Kim

I wouldn't have read so much into why he was asking to come over to the house and cook and would have instead suggested "neutral territory", but hey, at this point I'm just interested in finding out how it goes!

Hey Kim - haven't checked your thread in a long time! So your WH is making recon noises too, huh? Off to check it out...

I do not feel too comfortable meeting him at my place alone at this time, so after thinking about this, I am going to send him an email requesting that we meet at somewhere public.

What do you think?

I think you definately need to feel comfortable and a corner booth at a coffee shop will be good.

Do you have your boundaries and criteria clearly defined in your head?

Thanks Jean, I will send the email to H this morning.

My plan: I will not bring up the subject myself this time - I will let him bring that up. I will not give him the impression that I have already agreed to the reconciliation (I am sure he thinks I have already "agreed", simply b/c I said "having both parents is the best thing for DS3" in my email, but I purposely did not say "having you and I is the best thing". But I doubt he got the point).

I want to keep our routine (my having DS3 and H visiting DS3 every other weekend), and actually, want to file tax separately for now. If we reconcile, that should not matter anyway, but if we do end up divorcing, how to split the return, etc., will become an issue and I do not want that. But I am not going to mention that tonight. If he asks though, I may say "I have already started filing separately".

Do you have any suggestions as to what boundaries I should have?

Okay, I suggested that we meet at a neutral place tonight. Haven't heard anything back from him and I am a bit nervous. But why should I, right? I did not say anything negative or rude. All I said is basically "let's meet at xxx instead". I hate to feel this way, while I haven't done anything wrong!!!

His response...
-------------
Yes -that is fine

See you then

H
--------------

I truly doubt that he understands the significance of what he has done to his family.

Hey Milk-
Sounds you are doing very well on keeping things calm and
controlled, and "in your court", which is terrific.
I think the idea of being at a neutral and public place
sounds much more comfortable too.

Have been trying to concentrate and work on my own things
but it's hard with WH still in the same house. Probably
won't be for much longer though, as the house WH has been
renovating is almost done, and he's indicated he plans to
move there. That'll be tough on me too, but less "back
and forth" to deal with everyday.

Something you mentioned came back in my mind today, as
far as wondering if WH will ever be able to be "well", and
function as "normal" again, and it's made me feel very sad
and discouraged. I guess after WH got the DUI, wanted
my help and the security of home, said he wanted to work
on things again, and started seeing the Dr and counselor
for his disorder(s), I got my hopes up thinking things
were going to "turn around", and now that they really
haven't, I feel a big let down.
Will update on my post ~
Hope your weekend is good !
Slammed

Excellent! I really think neutral territory is MUCH better.

It could well be that he doesn't understand the significance of what he's done to you, but if he is accepted back into the fold, I think he will come to understand in no time flat. As soon as communication channels are open, and intimacy (I'm talking emotional intimacy here) is established, he will have an insight into your heart and mind and have those "OMG!!!!" moments. Not to mention that it will be patently obvious that things - and you - are NOT the same as when he left.

Thanks slammed and RiverTam.

Yeah, I feel better knowing that I am meeting with him at a neutral place. Not that I was worried about him physically harming me, but I might not feel emotionally comfortable, b/c I am still not trusting him at all.

This is hard, though. If I do not have any trust whatsoever, how can I be pleasant and happy and casual? If I have the hope, I can show my positive feelings openly and as a result I will be loving. But I do not want him to think I am completely open to the idea of reconciliation.

Life is soooooooooooooooooooo complicated when you have to deal with relationships.

Okay, it's time for me to go now. I will try my best to be casual and pleasant yet lovingly distant. Oh boy, one of the hardest assignment I have ever been given!!!

Slammed, I will check your thread later.

Milk

No, I didn't think the issue was him harming you, at all; I think it was mostly about control. Controlling the sitch as much as possible.

This is VERY complicated, you're right, but I think the trick is going in with a pleasant attitude, but strictly business, ie. "What are you putting on the table for me? Make it good, and I'll seriously consider what you have to say. No promises, but a serious consideration."

Good luck! Let us know how you go.

UPDATE:

Went out to dinner with STBX. I tried to be casual, but it was hard at the beginning to even smile at him. After all, he hurt me so much that I thought my life was ending. How can I pretend I am so happy to see him???

But I tried. Though I was already ticked off that he did not open the door for me nor pulled the chair for me. NONE. He just grabbed the menu and decided what he wanted. No asking me what I wanted or anything. But I did not show any emotions and just remained quiet.

I just ordered whatever I like myself, but tried to be pleasant by showing him what dishes are good in the restaurant. Then we started talking. Again, I did not bring up our M issues. I was going to let him talk.

H started:
H: "...so, do you think we can try again?"
Me: "I don't know."
H: "Do you think we have patience for each other?"
M: "It's not about the patience...., just that too much water went under the bridge and I am not sure if I can trust again."
H: "hmmm"
M: "...., what made you want to try again, what has changed?"
H: "..., what do you think we need to do?"
M: "No, I want to know what your plans are for this."
H: "What, you think only I NEED TO CHANGE??"
M: "H, I am not saying that, but you LEFT and you were so adamant about the divorce - why changed your mind now?"
H: "...I never want to feel like before, ever again, I felt suffocating. And this (leaving and filing for divorce) was my way of showing you that I was serious."
M: "So did you file for divorce to let me know you were serious??"
H: "...."

While we were talking, I tried to lighten up the scene a bit by talking about the food here and there.

H: "You were always upstairs in the bathroom or doing something alone and we never watched movies together or cuddled together, that has to change."
M: "We can watch movies together, yes, I can change that, but sometimes I just need to take my time to relax in the bathroom."
H: "Yea, I know... So if we are going to give us a second chance, we can take some program together or something - something should be available, don't you think? (I had an urge to tell him about marriage coaching sessions, but for now decided not to go into too much details, so I was just nodding) And... I do not ever want to go back to our MC we used a couple of times."
Me: "You didn't like him?"
H: "No, he said 'I'm surprised you two have lasted this long'."
Me: "He didn't say that."
H: "Yes, he did."

This was news to me. We went to see this old man only a couple of times, and thought H did not want to go back b/c the counselor pointed out H's issues (addictions, laziness, lies, weak personality, etc.) immediately and thought H was very uncomfortable. I seriously do not recall hearing him saying that our M should have ended sooner. I think H misheard him, but that's okay, I let go.

Then we started talking about our jobs, and he mentioned that he posted his resume on the web and has been receiving many phone calls from companies and headhunters.

Me: "Are you looking for a job again?"

He just started this new job last May - before losing his job only after one year, and prior to that, he lost his good paying job after three years. But on average, he has been changing his jobs EVERY TWO YEARS. He always claims he has issues with people/bosses, but if this happened to him for 8 times, he should realize that the common factor = HIM!!!

H: "No, I am just testing the market."
M: "... (not believing him AT ALL)"
H: "Well, okay, I got a pretty bad review, to be honest with you, but it's okay, I'm not worried."
M: "... (that's what he has said the past several times...)"
H: "My boss is a nagger, you know, and he pisses me off."
M: ".... (WILL YOU QUIT BLAMING OTHERS ALL THE TIME??? YOU ALWAYS BLAMED YOUR BOSSES FOR THE PAST 8 DIFFERENT JOBS!!! TIME TO WAKE UP AND SEE IF YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!!)"
H: "How is your job?"
M: "It's good, I've been busy."
H: "You always get good bosses and you always do well in your job (NO! I just do not blame my bosses for my under-performance! Yes, I have always had good relationships with my bosses and colleagues in all the jobs I have had in the past)."
M: "No, I actually got a bad review myself this time, b/c I basically could not work the most of last year. I was always crying in my office with the door always being closed. So I knew I was not performing. When I got a review, my boss asked if I had any comments or questions, so I told him 'no, I think this is a fair review. I did not perform last year, I am sorry'. Then he said 'I actually heard that you are going through some personal difficulties. Please let us know if there is anything we can do, b/c we are on your side.' You know, they did not have to be that nice to me, they are not my family, but they did, so I decided this year to work much harder - it's time for me to return something to them. So I've been working hard and producing much more reports and they are happy about that."

H: "That's good. It was hard for me too, I had this fear..."
M: "What fear?"
H: "A fear of loneliness and abandonment (YOU abandoned us, hello?). But I did not want that to be the reason for me to come back. Because I love S3 to death... (no mention of ME)"
M: "But the S3 factor has always been there, it's not like he was just born yesterday - you were okay with leaving him 10 months ago."
H: "..."

We also talked about his sex addiction a bit, but not much, b/c I sensed that he was probably uncomfortable talking about it in public. We had a few nice laughs when we talked about S3. He also mentioned his debt and asked me to give him the bank letters whenever I receive them (this debt is related to his arrest in June 2004).

So basically these are the conversations we had. Then we left the restaurant. I did not feel comfortable to give him a hug, so we just walked out to the parking lot together, but that was it. He came out to my car to check on the license sticker and said to me "it's due in May, so if you receive a mail, you need to include it and return with your check, okay."
M: "Okay"
H: "I wrote to the states asking to send the letter (I received one before but apparently discarded it) to XXX (my address), so if you receive it, I need to have it."
M: "Okay"
H: "Drive safe."
M: "Yea, thanks, you too."

So it wasn't bad, but I really think TO THIS DATE he still believes that I was the source of his unhappiness and I need to change a big time. I know there are many things I can improve, so that part is fine, but I do not think he thinks leaving his family like he did and how he handled the whole D thing (lies, lies, and lies) was horrible.

I will continue to have dialogue with him, but not have any high expectations. Also, I have to be honest. The whole job situation really disappoints me. He has an MBA, just like me, yet he just cannot perform. He always ends up disliking his bosses and colleagues. Then he blames them for his not doing a good job. And I know he feels inadequate b/c I have always performed better than him. Why can't he realize that it's HIM? How many jobs does he have to hold in order to realize this? In our M he also blamed me and still does. In the end, nothing has changed. Whether it's his job or M, it's always someone else's fault.

I have so many weaknesses and short comings, but one thing is that I have always had good friends, bosses and colleagues. Can't he think that MAYBE I am not such a bad person after all, and I MAY be capable of maintaining good relationships with others, and I MAY not be the only one to be blamed in our M....???

Baby steps...., if I choose to take them... if I think he will realize HE has many issues and become more humble....

Sounds like you did just fine. Your husband, on the other hand, has a lot of work to do. But he doesn't seem to realize it. After something happens over and over again, a normal person will start questioning their part. It looks like he is not there yet.

Indeed. Head still firmly rammed up butt, I reckon.

You did great, Milkshake.

I think you did great, Milk !
You showed interest, but kept from showing too much
enthusiasm, made it clear you had concerns and some
hesitation, and tried to find out what his reasons
and motives were.
Funny that his recollection of the MC was much different
than yours, but does seem like all the WS are good at
"selective memory".
I can understand your being disappointed about the job
situation and can SO relate to his saying the boss or
the job, or something - other than him- is always to
blame. I have heard the exact same thing SO many times
from WH, as he's changed jobs 10 times in the 11 years
I've known him ! It's always been because "the boss
is crazy", "the job isn't challenging enough", "he's
misunderstood", or something that is to blame.
WH's IC has said that constant dissatisfaction and
lack of contentment are common with emotional/mental
disorders and issues.
The job he has now, is the job he's had the longest
since I've known him. I think the thing that has
helped him stay with it has been that he has a lot
of flexibility, works basically on his own, and can get
out of the office for appointments, etc.
(He's a VP of commercial/real estate lending at a bank)

Continuing to talk, find out more about your WS's thoughts
and motives, and seeing where it goes sounds like a safe
way to proceed and let you decide what YOU want to do.
Slammed

Very impressive milkshake. You have an excellent recall for conversations. And you managed the conversation really well.

If you were to have a blind date with this man, if he were a complete stranger, would you want him in your life to help co-parent your son?

Excellent question!

Milk you did GREAT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you didn't do it alone with him in your home...he is not ready for that.

Milkshake -

Your WH sounds a lot like mine in many ways. I read about your dinner & WOW. You did great! I hope I can be the same IF I get together with my WH. We have only talked on the phone.

Way to go!

Kim

Milk!

Hey, I think you did great! Personally, your H sounds like he left, now sees that life is not better on his own, so might as well go back home, milk is waiting for me.

Even if he does not want the same life as you two had before, there is little that he has said to indicate what HE plans to do to change things......

I am worried he is coming back with the aditute...."well, you wanted me back, so ok, here I am...what changes are you willing to make Milk for me to be willing to hang around here....."

I don't think he gets it fully that HE needs to make changes as well.

He will get that Milk. You are on the right track. You did not welcome him with open arms. That alone will sink in for him that HE better do something, because MILK is moving on with or without him.

Keep it up! I think you did good.....let him come up with a plan......if he has none, that just means he is not thinking enough about what HE needs to do......

And agreeing to MC is not enough I think. I had a really bad experience when H agreed to MC. In my case, he agreed only so that I would find out why exactly he was leaving me, not to actually work on it. That will not be your case, but I worry he may just agree to go, so that Milk will be pacified......

Stand up for yourself and DS as you are doing!

Best to you...
Daisy