Wow Milk, I am so sorry about this.

It could be it wasn't his motive at all...perhaps he did have an epiphany sitting in jail, perhaps he didn't. It could be he wanted to save money, it could be he IS realizing he ISN'T just unlucky and is going to take osme responsibility...perhaps he IS learning...slowly, very slowly.

So without reading too much into his thoughts and motives, what does that change about YOUR actions?

Perhaps you can keep it the same?

You talk nice when he is talking nice. You gently confront when he is doing or saying something that doesn't make sense...like the bad luck delusion. And you stay away when he is acting belligerant, in denial, and in the midst of his addiction. Or do you give up altogether?

What is YOUR plan?

Daisy,

Thanks for your reply. I see the similar trait in your H. They cannot take the criticism or cannot for a moment think they might have problems. Because they have low self-eseem, they are so afraid of feeling like a loser. For people with confidence, even if they make mistakes, they can admit that and move on. People with low self-esteem cannot do that - they fight so hard to feel they did not screw up, ended up making things whole a lot worse than they were.

Milk

Oh, man! Milkshake, I am so sorry to hear this. He is not beyond redemption, IMHO, but it certainly sounds like he has a way to go.

You, however, are the poster girl for baby steps! That's the way to do it. You have avoided SO MUCH heartache! You know, I always advise and applaud baby steps, but I fear that with one little crooking of H's finger I'd just dive in, fully clothed, and forget all about those baby steps. :-/

milk

it is still possible that he is sincere in his desire to reconcile right? maybe he "saw the light" through the fog-maybe getting arrested was his rock bottom?

i'm so glad that you are protecting your heart, and your little one's too...i'm still hopeful for you that it's real!

Oh dear {{{milkshake}}}. I can identify with the DUIs as my H has had two (one before I knew him). We got past it mainly because other than that and a few minor things, my H has been reasonably honest and decent.

DUIs are not to be taken lightly. An accident with accompanying DUI will result in jail time; if the accident involves a fatality, that jail time could be counted in years, not months. These drivers always think "It won't happen to me," well, guess what, it does.

Good on you for being so cautious. My heart goes out to you, it really does.

I'm so sorry to hear this....

Thanks Rivertam, eav, and GBH for your kind words.

Last night when we were talking, STBXH admitted that he got "scared" when he received a DUI and that prompted him to approach me for reconciliation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He was scared of his financial situation and also feared that I might use this against him in the D process. So basically his "let's give our M a second chance for the sake of DS3" talk was all a big lie - AGAIN. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> And he said "you know, it was comfortable together...", so I asked "what do you mean, you mean we were comfortable together FINANCIALLY?", to which he said YES. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> So I told him "I don't want you to come back because I make good money". He said "no, that's not the only reason...", but it was clear to me, that it IS the only reason he wanted reconciliation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He did this last year. He said "let's stay together for the sake of DS3", but soon se he got a job he left. When I confronted him about this, he said

"So what? I had no place to go. You knew that. You cornered me. I don't feel bad about what I did, I had no choice". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And for him to claim he loves his son so much... It's sickening, and I am angry at myself being so naive and believing he was such a sweet person. Now I do not trust anything he says and does. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And he is so good at manupulating others. He did again last night, in the end he almost got the right to drive DS3 around. I felt so bad this morning, b/c what am I doing? If I keep making the same mistakes (= trusting him and letting him get what he wants at the expense of DS3 and my heart ache), I am no different than those mice going through the cheeseless tunnel.

So this morning I called him.

M: "You know what, I still do not feel comfortable that you drive DS3 around".
H: "Oh?"
M: "And if you cannot respect that, that shows how much you only care about yourself and do not care about DS3 or me. You are only concerned how this arrest is going to affect you. And you know what, I do not need a husband who repeatedly, shamelessly keeps using his wife for the financial reason and also his son's name when it's convenient for him".

Maybe the latter part should not have been said, but I could not stop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I was already so hurt again. I have always believed in our love, but he just used me financially while he was doing all sorts of sneaky things behind my back.

So he asked "so what about tonight, are you going to drop DS3 off at my place?"
M: "No, b/c you will still need to drop him off at his school tomorrow morning, so forget about tonight, I will arrange something else. As for this weekend, I can drop him off at your apartment and can come by to pick him up. Or if you want to go see your parents I can drop him off at their place."

I know, it's not convenient, but have to set some boundaries with this man. Nothing is a big deal for him, and he continues to push for things he wants, and he wants to get it when he wants it. And he gets mad if he does not get his way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He is no different than a two-year-old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I always failed to keep the boundaried in the past. That allowed him to continue to use drugs and have EA with other women. I cannot fail this time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, and if he does not respect this and proceed with D b/c he is mad, then there was no reconciliation desire on his part to start with, as far as I am concerned.

That's a hard fact to chew on, but that is what it is. If he does not want to reconcile for healthy reasons, and use this opportunity to rather save his b*** (if we get back together his debt will become our mutual debt, he does not have to give me the CS check, and also he does not have to pay for the rent, etc.) for now and is thinking maybe 3-6 months down the road he can move out again (b/c he thinks that works really well to threaten me to get what he wants), I am not going to let that happen. Once is enough. By the way, he did mention our D process and said

"With $500, we can stop the D, or we can just put it on hold. Which one should we go for? Are you going to leave it up to me? I guess we can just put it on hold, so that if we resume the process we do not have to spend on the same process".

Now, how encouraging is this statement to come out of a man who apparently wants reconciliation?? He is just looking for a bandaid solution to his situation for now and has absolutely NO intention to work on our M.

He completely broke my heart. He broke our little one's heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> And he has no shame to continue to use "us" only when it's convenient for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He is not hitting the rock bottom yet. Maybe nothing is going to make this man humble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He has such a low self-esteem that he is so afraid to admit he has screwed up. So he has been so proud and arrogant while I am sure inside he feels like a s*** inside. That's why he cannot apologize to me. That's why he cannot see this DUI as another wake-up call for him. No, this has to be due to his misfortune. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He called during the lunch time and asked who would be taking care of DS3 tonight and tomorrow morning (I have a business trip and initially asked H to have him over but because of the whole DUI thing, I told him this morning that I would make another arrangement), and when I told him the names of my friends, he obviously was mad and just said "okay, fine". Then he hung up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I was then thinking some things..., and am not sure if that was the good move, but called him back about 15 minutes later.

I asked him if he considers going back to SA meetings. He said "I know why you are asking this, it's b/c of my DUI, but I am not an alcoholic". So I said "oh, I know, I am not saying this b/c of your DUI - I know you don't really drink that much. I was just thinking more about..., a thinking process - have you ever felt that maybe your thought process might lead you to bad choices?"

H: "well, I don't know".
M: "Because when you were attending those SA meetings back in June 2004, you changed so much - you had a lot more energy and very proactive in helping me around the house and with DS3, and I really appreciated it".
H: "What makes you think I won't do the same now?"

Oh, I thought he was so mad that he wanted a D still. Hmm, I was not expecting this reaction from him. So after the huge argument last night, and my demanding him not driving DS3 around the town for now, he is still thinking of reconciliation? I was surprised.

After talking some more, actually he said this:

"Well, after living alone for 10 months, now I know many things I was not happy about were not necessarily related to our marriage and had more to do with my personal issues..."

No he did not say that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But is he saying this b/c he knows that is what I want to hear? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Okay, never speak too soon.

H is not well yet. We read some article together (about M) and exchanged our opinions on this. His take is very different from mine. He still has the attitude of external factors or environment have to change to accomodate his needs. He says he does not want to sacrifice his life, time and money for other people or things. So basically he still believes being selfish is a good thing.

Okay, good to know now than later - he hasn't changed a bit.

I'm sorry Milk.
I understand the hurt from getting hopes up, even a little
bit and with caution, and wanting things to work out, esp.
for the sake of DS3.
You've handled this very well, and at least have the "ball
in your court" so to speak.
Does sound like WH had financial motives in mind, but may
have also done some thinking and realized that being on
his own didn't make him happy either. However, he has a
long ways to go and lots of work to do to get out of this
"victim" thinking pattern, where he "can't get a break",
is "unlucky", and everything that happens is due to someone
or something else, but not him. (boy, do I know this one
well from my WH). At least he hasn't further complicated
matters by dragging another person (OW) into the situation
too !
What do you think you want to do now ?

(((( Slammed ))))

One more thing - his first reaction to the article I forwarded to him was "I am not a big fan of I am holier than you articles but I can accept the good things one can learn from a religious article".

This is the man who complained that I am not spiritual enough and he said we need to go to church together and need to pray together! He really used the bible study as an opportunity to flirt with the girl, that was it. Unbelievable.

Milk,

If the article you mentioned is the one I forwarded to you, please tell him the book from which the excerpt was taken is written by two of the foremost Christianity-based psychological counselors and the book cites the Bible throughout, and the concept that was shared in the excerpt is based on the basic principle of "Love your neighbor" and the verse cited there.

I'm glad you had the opportunity to share that excerpt with him and to see whether or how it would hit him. Now you know for sure.

=====

The book I mentioned above is titled "Boundaries in Marriage" by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It is an excellent book. I also agree with their definition of codependency and its effect on marriage than Dr. Harley's. Spouses should care about each other in marriage, but ultimately, each person owns and is responsible for his or her own feelings, attitudes, behaviors, emotions, etc. Like so many of us on this board say, "Yeah, your spouse had done terrible things to you, and I'm sorry you were hurt. But forgive him/her and don't hold grudge, move on and be a better person," because ultimately you're the only one who can let it go and say, "I won't let it bother me anymore." Make sense?

Sorry I completely veered off. I recommend the book highly, though.

My heart aches for you, Milk. I'm here for you, whatever the course of action you decide to take.

xoxo,
H&F

My emotions are all over again. I am not doing as bad as I would have if this happened a year ago, though.

One moment I feel "he hasn't changed a bit, if anything might be worse now, because now he is convinced that putting himself on top of his priority list all the time about everything equals 'taking care of himsel', and that is not the values I share. This is not going to work out, so it's better I get out quick as possible before getting hurt even more by having false hopes".

As I mentioned, he said he would never want to sacrifice his life, time, and money over dogs or kids, so he does not want to have any more pets or kids. A lot of people choose not to have them, but I just do not like his reason. That's plain selfish! And now it sounds he is proud of the fact he can say "I am selfish, I want to live my own life and do not wish anyone to interfare it, as it will make me unhappy" loudly, whereas before even though that is how he felt, he was a bit ashamed of it.

He has given me a list of things I NEED to change, and hasn't said anything about what HE needs to change, other than his addictions.

Oops, the fire drill. I will continue later.

Okay, I am back.

So that is one strong feeling I have. I have devoted all of 2005 to STBXH, and I want 2006 to be my year. I do not want to go through h*** again this year in a limbo.

At the same time, the other feeling I get is "am I making the right decision? After all, we have spent so much time together and had our son together, and can I really face the hard reality that he will disappear from my life? Am I doing the right thing for DS3? No one is perfect, so even if I choose someone else in the future, would it be the same thing?? Should I just stay alone with DS3 then?"

I do not feel as vulnerable as a year ago, so that is a good thing. I do feel I will be okay without STBXH now. But, small things still remind me of our happy times every once in a while and make me wonder what I should do.

I have the same problem. Whenever I think of my WH, I remember my H and how it used to be. I have trouble separating the H and the WH. I guess it is the BS fog - seeing the H when it is the WH standing right in front of you. Letting go of the shoulda, woulda, couldas is hard. I keep telling myself that he is the one letting go and to force him to come back while he is still the WH would only do more damage and erode the love bank. I want my H back - I have no use for the WH. Until then, I'm just gonna stay strong.
I admire your strength milkshake. Reading your thread and seeing how you have protected yourself and child, how you have stuck to your boundaries has been very helpful for me.

Thank you H&F and Lizzie.

I may feel strong often but also feel completely weak many times too!

I know I do not "need" him. I have survived this long alone, and actually often I find myself enjoying my life better now, b/c I can make my own decisions and be responsible for them. I think DS3 is doing much better these days too.

But of course I miss our good old days as well. Maybe I am not spending too much time looking back that much anymore, which is a healthy thing to do, but still, it can be hard.

I guess the hardest thing is that once I believed so firmly can crumble down so easily and fast scares me. I feel I have been having a bad dream. I guess I never truly knew who STBXH really was. That's my mistake, so I just have to pay the price.

I have to believe beyond this hardest point I am at right now, both DS3 and I will be so much happier... I just can't picture us that far though right now.

((( Milk )))
Hope you are feeling okay today.
I understand how you feel after having some hopes and then
finding out there was more to your WH's "change of heart".
I've been in the same "boat" lately, with much frustration,
hurt, and disappointment after what ended up being a short,
"false" recovery.

WH supposedly stayed at the other house last night, which
I'm sure really meant he was at OW's. He still insists that
his "change of heart" has nothing to do with her, but all
the things he is saying and the way he is acting is exactly
like it was when the A first started, so I am sure that is
exactly what is going on again..a big reconciliation with
OW.
It also really hurts that he has this other house, which
he has been using as an excuse (to be gone from home), and plans to move to soon.
Since I've seen it through the stages of renovation, from
a big mess, to a very nice, clean and fresh home, helped
picking out some things, and made plans with WH about
where we'd put furniture, etc. it hurts to now be totally
left out of it (and to think about OW being there-yuck !)

I'm beginning to feel like WH is incapable of getting off
the fence. Seems like the reality of getting the DUI,
starting meds and counseling, being back home/together for
a bit, and even the big "deadline" over the D paperwork
haven't been enough to force him to make a decision or
a choice.

I did finally ask WH if he moved or took the D paperwork
(I had noticed it was gone from the desk last week), and
he said "yes, why?" I just said I had noticed it was gone
after I'd been sorting and filing stacks of paperwork last
week and hoped I hadn't gotten it mixed in with the tax
stuff. The date I thought was the deadline (March 17) has
passed, so unless he did some kind of extension, seems to
me that it is now "null and void" and would have to be
started all over again, including the 90 day waiting period.
Guess that's a good thing, since it's more time for the A
to end, but getting to that point is getting oooolllddd !!

I understand what you mean about feeling like you never
really knew H. I feel that way too, since H I knew was
nothing at all like WH is now, and don't know if he will
ever be again.
Slammed

Milk and Slammed,

I'm so sorry for the pain, frustration, disappointment and uncertainty that you're feeling. I've felt all of these myself, and I can completely relate. I wish I could wave a magic wand and erase all that from your heart.

One good thing is that, regardless of the path each of you will take going forward, those feelings won't get to you down the road. It's hard to believe, and I didn't believe it myself when someone else told me 3 years ago, but here I am attesting to it.

I don't believe in D and I normally don't advocate D, but in your cases, you can say, "I've had enough of this" and move on with your lives because your H's have been unfaithful. But you can also choose to stay in your marriages. The choice is completely up to YOU.

From what I read in the last couple of posts on this thread, it sounds that both of you are reaching the end of rope. If you think you've given yourself and your H enough time and energy and effort trying to reverse the situations, take control and remove yourself from the nightmare.

Why am I saying this? Because I hate to see you suffer any more than you already have at the hands of those immature people. It really is a tough thing to do to end a relationship, especially when so much has been invested in it and you can easily remember the good times you shared with your H's. But you can't get anywhere if you keep holding on to the past. It is easier said than done, I know, because I held on to the past for a long, long time. One day, though, I heard someone say, "Are you letting a dead man keep you from having a full life?", and I "woke up." Yes, it is your H's who've turned your world upside down; yes, it is their stupidity that is causing heartache. But you know what? After all said and done, YOU are the one who can free yourselves from the anger, pain, frustration, disappointment, and stress by ending your M and starting anew. (Sometimes I think of the way my H used to be pre-A, but I consider that person dead. I actually mourned the death of our M the way it used to be after I found out.)

In your case, Milk, you're struggling with the decision for DS3's sake. He may be able to have a far more stable life with a far more stable and responsible male figure in his life (hopefully your future H) than his own biological, yet irresponsible and self-centered, father. Your H has made it clear that he only cares about his own happiness. He will continue to bring nothing but misery in your M and his relationship with DS3, and I don't think that'll be healthy for you or DS3.

Please don't think I'm being mean or nasty. I'd be really happy for both of you if your H's turned around and came back to your M, but I'd also be happy if you go on with your lives without them. I'm just praying for the best for both of you.

Love,
H&F

I am sorry for what you are going through Slammed, you must feel betrayed over and over again. That's how I feel too.

And thanks for your support, love, and advice H&F.

I just got back from my friends' house, and my friend basically told me the same thing. In her mind, my H is a self-centered, immature, and irresponsible person, and he is just not capable of caring for others. She firmly believes H will continue to use me, and soon as some new development occurs (such as a new job, etc.), he will just do the same thing all over again. She asked me:

"What does it take for you to reach a point 'enough is enough'? What does it take for you to just end this to protect DS3 and yourself? Because H is not capable of working on your M. He can't think of anyone else but himself. When are you going to reach a point where you care about your own happiness?"

I told her I do feel I am just wasting my time and energy and emotions, yet it is hard to just "end" our M. That a part of me still hopes that H will wake up and become humble again.

So she asked "so what does it take for you to say your H has changed?" I said "I need to see real actions, rather than words".

And we talked more, but basically her question is "how can you ever trust this man again? Looking at how he has behaved and how he is behaving now, is there any indication that he would become a trustworthy individual?"

True, this is the hard part. I do not want to get hurt again by trusting him, because I just cannot trust him. Then why try? If the trust is completely broken, how can we maintain M?

I know trust gets broken all the time, unfortunately. That's why a lot of us are here. But in my case, H just continues to exhibit self-centered and manupulative behaviors, and nothing that came out of his mouth over the past 16 months was true.

It is a hard thing - on one hand I clearly see that I am being manupulated and used by H for his selfish benefits, and my head is telling me to just get over with our pending D process, yet on the other hand my heart is still hopeing for a miracle, preventing me from moving further or faster.

But I cannot live in a fairy tale... The reality is, my H is so broken and sick. He may never get well. Do I want to put my life on hold for him?? Do I want to wait forever?? What about DS3 and my lives?

I have been trying to communicate with my heart - my head is trying hard to convince my heart. My heart is not as naive as a year ago, yet still can be naively hoping for some miracle.

Okay, enough of this topic..., I need to get some good night sleep. I am sooooooooooo tired - had a very long day. Good night everyone.

Milk

H and I talked over the phone yesterday but I really do not feel that anything will change. I actually told him that he should just stay single if he truly believes his happiness should come before anything else (he said he does not want to sacrifice his time and money on kids and pets). I also told him that I do not wish him to come back for my money. Of course he denied and said he "misses" both of us.

He asked what I want him to change, so I said I need to see "actions" rather than just words. He told me that he is going to attend SA meetings and wants us to go to MC a couple times a month.

I think he is really in a bad financial situation and needing some help.

Milk