milkshake ~ you can't make your husband go to SA or AA, but how about you going to Al Anon?

BrambleRose, thanks for your suggestion. Yes, I have looked into this option last summer, but the meeting schedule and location available for me were just not working for me at that time.

Now, the problem is that I truly believe H wants to come back for his own convenience ONLY (again) and cannot trust him, I do not want to make any committment either. Attending SA-NON will probably help me anyway, even if we end up divorcing (and that is why I was looking into this last year) but if the schedule does not work for me, I do not want to jeopardize DS3's time with me to attend this - I rather invest my time on DS3 than H at this point.

Thanks H&F for the encouragement, support and prayers-
I appreciate your posting to me too.
And thanks, Milk, for your continued support and care.

I too have thought many of the same things, and have been
asked by friends and my IC:
" When will I have had enough ?"
"Could I ever trust H again ?"
"How long do I want to wait to see if WH will change ?"
And it's been very hard to come up with answers to these
questions, because I do still love H , believe that he
could change, and believe our M could be a wonderful thing.
Whether it's realistic for me to believe this, I don't know-

Besides the A going on, WH definitely has some pretty big
issues to deal with. Even when things were better with us
I knew it was going to take a long time, but I was willing
to "wait that out" when he seemed to be making the effort.
The bipolar, DUI issues, and all that stuff were never
"deal breakers" for me, but of course, the A is...

I guess everyone says "only you will know when it's time to
give up", and I've prayed that God will show me if there's
just no hope and no reason to keep believing or trying.
Despite all the hurt and frustration, I haven't felt yet
that this time has come for me, and I still have flickers
of hope, so I guess for now, I am still "in the fight".

Things have become much tougher this week, as WH seems to
be dead-set on moving out, wants to start taking furniture
from our house this weekend, and is talking more about
wanting to put our house for sale, and getting on with D.
It feels like I'm on a train, racing wildly out of control
because he is in such a rush.
I'm getting mixed signals about what is going on with he and
OW, but feel his strange behavior and things he is saying
are so exactly like they were at the beginning of the A,
that it's got to be that again.

Sounds like your WH is still "talking the talk", but as you've told him, you need to see action. Will be very
interesting, and telling to see if he does attend the Sa meetings, and if he will initiate and stick with MC - ?

I think you are wise to continue very cautiously and keeping
your guard up for both you and DS3. I know it's really hard
though, because it keeps you on the "up and down".

I know it's going to be a really hard weekend here as WH
is intending to start moving out. We had a lot of talk about
it at his IC session last night, and it was really hurtful.
(Will update my post)
Hope you have a nice weekend-
Slammed

Thanks for your post Slammed. You are going through the rough time again, and my heart goes out to you.

Like you said, you have to decide what is best for you. Personally, I feel that OW and your WH's relationship will not last anyway. So it makes sense that you still have hope, because most likely he will keep coming back to you whenever he lost his OW. But you have to decide how much more you want to allow such behaviors. I think that is why Plan B has been suggested - so that you can protect your love for WH while this might help wake him up.

I haven't done Plan B, so cannot advise you on this, but it does seem for those 'serial cheaters', Plan A alone is just never going to work, unfortunately.

My H just called and said he spoke to his L and asked him to put our D on hold for 5 months. He used the word "to start with", which was interesting and irritating, to be honest. And he mentioned that he is "open" to MC, but said "of course only if YOU are open to this". I guess he is trying to show some humbleness by saying that "I am not assuming you are always open to our reconciliation". It's just that, sadly, I do not feel any sense of remorse or humbleness from him. But guess I should give him a credit for taking some actions..., since that is what I told him. Tomorrow he wants to come over and talk (he will have DS3 this weekend).

This is now a hard time 4 u. The WS appears t/b trying the 'lets be friends' tactic in an effort to keep you in the A triangle. See the A doesn't work well unless it is a triangle. When you as the BS remove yourself from their game, the A starts to crumble. Either the WS and OP work on becoming a couple (which you know one can not mate outside of their specie - LOL!!), so that's doomed to fail. The other option is the WS sheds his skin and morphs back in your spouse.

The pressure will be on you and if you are smart, you will learn HOW NOT to allow the WS back into your life but rather, ONLY your H.

L.

Thanks, Milk.
Wish we were closer and could get together- we have such
similiar WH's that we'd sure get along great ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree that there doesn't seem much chance of WH and OW
having any kind of real relationship- just too much basis
of lies, "drama", "ups and downs", paranoia, and lack of
anything in common there for me to think there is.

Even as much as he totally denies the A and that it has
anything to do with it, I do remember that he acted this
same exact way, even said the same things before, and DID
come back when he and OW broke up (briefly in October) and
again when he was scared and needed help after the DUI.
Of course, neither lasted, and now we're back in the same
pattern again- (just like last August, WH now seems to be
in "hot pursuit" of the OW, totally disregards me or M,
and is pushing for quick sale of house and D).

As a sympton of the bipolar disorder is "cycling", I don't
know if this same pattern of A behavior is part of that or
just it's own "pattern" ???? (could be interesting...)
Can't tell if we are repeating the same cycle again , and
can end it in a better way with a recovery or if it's going to repeat and finally work it's way to a finale this time..( as in D)

Maybe the Plan B could be the thing that will break this
pattern... if not, I don't think there's much hope.
I am prepping for that Plan now, just really anticipating
a tough weekend as WH is moving out. Wasn't as bad when
he just took his toiletries and some clothes before, but
now that we're down to dividing our things, I am really
taking this hard and it feels much more permanent.

Glad your WH is taking some action, Milk, and he seems to
be showing some consideration of your feelings too. I hope
he will continue to do this and hope the delay will also
give you time to think of how you feel and what you want to
do. Hope your weekend will be good.

Orchid- I appreciate your input here. Can you explain more
about the A as part of a triangle and ways to not allow
WS back ????
Slammed












Seems like we are going through the same cycle as back in
August- WH is in "hot and heavy" pursuit of OW, shows no
concern or care for me or US,

Thanks for your comment Orchid. Apparently the actual A is not going on (although he tried - he signed up for LovaLife and eHarmony <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), but his addictions have had similar effects as A, I believe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know he wants to get his "comfortable" life back. But he only wants the "comfort" back without any hard work on his end or having me demand anything in return - well that's too convenient, isn't it!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

It's not that I do not forgive him, but I do not want to be a fool. I think he is still WH and a user/taker, so I keep reminding myself HOW he used me last year when things were not going well for him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, to stay cautious. Sometimes I get nervous, but tell myself that I have lost H already, and IF he wants to come back, it has to come from H, I cannot make him do this. I will NOT allow H to use me or DS3 for his selfish reasons anymore. IF my being firm with my boundaries turns him off, then his desire to reconcile was never real in the first place. I have nothing to lose now. I have a good job, and can take care of myself and DS3. If he comes back, he will bring loads of debt. I must be very stupid to let him come back with such baggage if there is a great risk of him running away again.

So, I will be careful. He has to prove himself to me to seriously consider reconciliation. Please, help guys, to help me stay strong! He is very good at manupulating me. I am not going to ruin my rest of my life in order to settle for a serial liar. I have to be strong and firm with my boundaries. Hope I will not get too emotional or get needy. That's my primary concern now.

Oops, we cross posted yesterday Slammed.

DS3 and I went out with my girl friend for dinner (all you can eat sea food...mmm YUMMY <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />!!!) last night and it was fun. My gosh, he must be going through a major growth spur... he probably ate more than us!

H came by this morning. He wanted to talk, and I could tell that he just wants to “wrap up” the business so that he could move back in. When I told him “to be honest, when you told me that you wanted to give our M a second chance, the first thing came to my mind was ‘ah-oh, he is having financial problems’”, he made this face <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> that clearly said I cornered him! Then he said “well, yes, it’s tight, that’s true, and I cannot deny the financial comfort I miss, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> but that’s not everything”. YEAH RIGHT. He thought a bit and was dare to say “we had good times too”. Then on to “I realized a lot of feelings I had while I was here were me, not our marriage”. Okay, this is the same guy who said basically I have a lot to change just a few minutes earlier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Over and over he had proven that he has become EXACTLY the kind of man I look down the most…., at least for now. How can I trust and respect him ever again? It feels impossible.

And (AS I EXPECTED) he brought up his lease issue <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, so I told him “I know, that’s another reason I felt you approached me, and I do not want your lease to be the reason to come back”. He also mentioned that WE have to do our tax, so I said “well, I was thinking of doing my own tax, separately”. He looked stunned, but did not say anything, most likely because he figured he should lay low to increase the odds of coming back home.

I was looking at his face today while we were talking and was asking myself – do I still love him? It’s a hard question to answer. 10 months ago, or even 6 months ago, I would have been so happy to hear that H wanted to come back because I still had a lot of feelings for him.

Now, only the bitter, sad, angry, betrayed, and disappointed feelings are left mainly inside me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. As of now, frankly I cannot feel like I want to spend so much energy rebuilding our trust or marriage. Right now, I do not have any strong wish to work on our marriage. Because he killed it. If I still have love, even though recovery seems very challenging, I would have tried. But I do not have such passion anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will not make any rush decisions, but it is sad that I cannot feel the desire to work on our marriage anymore…

I was going through some old pix, which to certain extent helped remind me of our good old days and my feelings for H. They seem such a long time ago though!

I do not want to decide that I do not "love" him anymore just because I do not have the romantic feeling for him, b/c that is what HE did and continues to believe. I just want to think over if I can trust, love, and respect him again. Right now my head says no way. I'll take one day at a time.

By the way, while we were talking this morning I was studying his face - and was shocked how old, tired, depressed and "dead" H looks now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> His eyes look so dead, and he has no expression on his face. When I was going through some pix, it is so clear when he was not stressed out (e.g. our R was going well or he did not have stress from work or we were on vacation, etc.), he looked alive, younger and good, but in recent years in every single picture, he looked very tired and old. Quite a few of my friends have commented on how dead H's "eyes" are by the way, for the past 18 months. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

milkshake ~ I am married to an alcoholic. So ~ know that what I am saying is coming from a woman who knows all too well about marriage to an addict.


Lets see...where to start.

I believe, and it has been my experience that people do not accidently marry addicts.

Addiction is a deeply cunning, baffling and powerful disease. It is not just physical, but emotional and spiritual.

It is a generational, family disease.

I am the oldest of 10 children. My parents rarely drink. I never knew either of my grandfathers - who did. They were violent raging drunks.

Alcohol rarely entered my home, and alcoholism was never discussed. I had no idea about the family secrets regarding my grandfather's addictions.

I grew up, left home, went to college. Fell in love, deeply, madly, completely. Yes, you guessed it, he was to become my alcoholic husband.

Sure, you can say it was coincidence. But I tell you with confidence it was not. I fell in love with a man who felt normal, a man who felt "right" to me. I didn't know that I was emotionally and spiritually affected by the disease of alcoholism. I didn't know that my childhood home was not healthy, and that the dysfunctional emotional and spiritual affects of alcholism ran rampant in both of my parents. I didn't know that what I felt was not love, but was emotional dependency, truely crippling emotional dependency. His disease recognized mine - I was the one to make him comfortable in his disease.

Ok, still call it coincidence?

Remember how I mentioned that there are 10 siblings in my family?

Every single one of us has either married an alcoholic, or become one, or both.

It is a disease that attracts, it is sneaky, seductive and insidious.

Now, why am I going to the trouble to make this point?

Because I want you to understand, that whether you know it or not, you are affected, very deeply, by living in close proximity to addiction. I don't know you, but I can assure you...healthy people are not attracted to addicts.

Healthy people are attracted to healthy people, and draw boundaries to protect themselves from unhealthy people.

People like myself are not healthy because not only do we not draw boundaries, we marry the addict.

Even IF a perfectly emotionally healthy personan, a spiritually and mentally well adjusted person, marries an addict - it changes and transforms that person - as it is highly and dangerously contaigious. It affects your thought processes, and your ability to make good decisions.

That the disease is running rampant in your life is very clear to me as I read this thread.

Why did I suggest you go to Al Anon?

Not for him. Not to invest in him or your marriage.

For you.

And you can argue that you would rather invest the time in your son.

And I can tell you, since your son has no voice of his own, that he needs a mother who is emotionally and spiritually grounded and healthy. He is the child of an addict. He will be forever effected by this in a myriad of ways. He needs at least one parent to be whole and healthy. And so time spent in a 12 step program is an investment in your child's mother.

We make time, we rearrange schedules, we find babysitters and help to do the things we feel are important.

One hour a week, invested in you, will change your life, and your son's forever.

AMEN!

And milkshake ~ not to hurt you in anyway ~ but please realize, that your husband's primary relationship is with his addiction, and that will never change without his decision to enter treatment. You were never, and can never be, his primary relationship.

I'll go even farther and say, No, of course you will never respect him.

Not because he is unworthy of respect - but because part of the attraction to an addict involves the need to feel superior.

I needed my husband to be 'less than' so I could feel good about myself.

I discovered that my own self-image, self-worth were so nonexistant, that I required my husband to be unworthy of my respect so that I could feel good about me.

It took along time in therapy and in Al Anon before I was able to see that nasty little part of me, much less acknowledge that it was true.

does he want to come home b/c (1) he is losing his job (again); (2) his apartment lease is going to end and he does not have money to renew it; (3) tax reasons....???


Can you call his landlord and find out if he's behind in his rent?

If he is, then at least you'll know his true agenda for wanting to come back home.

milk....

How are you doing....

I've been thinking about your situation. As I read here it appears that most of the WS come back and do NOT give any appoligy for their actions. I think they are too deep in their hole to give it.

It seems to me that the WS, just as the BS, are weary and unsure and causions about reconsiliation. Some WS are more willing then others. I don't think they all jump for joy to get to reconciliation, some actually go forth more as a if performing some choore because they now realize it is the right thing to do, but it will be work.

Fact is, reconciliation is hard.

In your case, I would really seriously consider writing out a plan for WH about reconsiliation. Sit down, fill out the emotional needs questionaire, talk about what YOU need to happen to feel save and give it a try, talk about what HE needs to happen to feel save etc.

A reall serious talk about a plan, and filling out the emotional needs questionare may help you to see where WH is with respect to reconsiliation. I know you are weary that WH is doing it only for financial reasons. I fear, however, that part of hiting buttom is that they also want back the financial need that the BS was meeting. That is part of reallity hitting then in the face. This should induce them to attemp reconsiliation, but not be the only reason for it.

Financial benefit will proof to be too constly to a WS that comes back without wanting to commmit to serious recovery. So, in other words, even financially benefiting by being with you, is too constly to a WS that does not really want to commit to recovery.

My H prefers to live in one room in the basement of a house that has the bare essentials, rather then commiting to recovery and getting his financial need met by me. Sure, he liked the fact that I provided for him, but since he did not want to work on the marriage, all the financial benefit were too costly.

So, I think you should be able to see how serious WH is to recovery by actually making some attempt at recovery. He will not be able to fake his way through it just to get back in the house.

I don't know if recovery is what you want, but if it is, I worry that you are quickly dismissing him. It is quite possible that he is ONLY coming back for financial reasons, but it could be that financial harship along with other factors, has made him realize that life with you was good.

I think you have the additional issue of past false recovery. YOu don't want to establish a patern with WH and I understand that. That is why I would clearly state your Plan for recovery, that includes potentially moving back in after a significant time passes and recovery is progressing. What is a significant time, I don't know.....keep it vague to make sure he understands that actual progress must be made before any action on him moving in takes place.

I think the more you are clear about what needs to happen on his end and on your end, the more beneficial it will be to you. Either WH will make a serious effort, or he will not, saving you and him a lot of heart acke. If you are too vague about what the plan is, you may be in this limbo too long. I also, think this is the time to apply some of the changes you made in the last year, and the new approach to relationships you have learned.

IF in the past you were affraid to state what you want, and played some sort of "feeling guessing game" with WH, now is the time to state what your feelings, state your intent.

I know you are afraid of getting hurt again. HOwever, I think if you make it clear that this will take some effort to rebuilt, he will realize that this is not a game, that he cannot just slither his way back in without any work, and if he does really NOT want to do any work, he will back of and not even consider recovery. My H did that. The S that don't really want to work on it, when shown the path and willingness by the BS to do it and when shown the work that it will take, will prefer to back out. Sad, but at least you'll know.

Best to you.....

I hope what I have said at least makes some sense.....

DAisy

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and support.

I was pretty busy this weekend trying to finish up my tax return and taking care of many other things.

I was doing a lot of thinking too - like BrambleRose pointed out, why was I attracted to him in the first place? I did a lot of self reviewing.

First, I really did not know he had so many issues. He was an A-student when I met him, did not smoke, was exercising and in shape, and was always kind to other people. After we started dating, he told me some scary stories like how he grew up in a dysfunctional family, he and his brother used to use drugs, his step mom was alcoholic, etc. I did get pretty scared when I heard these stories, and considered breaking up, but did not leave him. Why? I guess somehow I felt he was okay because he could analyze those past incidents pretty well (so I thought...). But like BrambleRose pointed out, is it possible that I stayed with him because I could feel I was superior?

I can say yes and no to this. No, because I was always frustrated that he was not very motivated and always wished that he was more driven. Most of my old boyfriends prior to H were pretty ambitious.

But I can answer yes too, because I enjoyed the fact I could do well and did not have to feel I was struggling around H. Every time I accomplished something, H used to say "I am so proud of you", which I remember made me feel very good. So maybe subconsciously I was using him to boost my ego? Quite possible.

So our M was never healthy then. So now at this point, what is the best thing to do? The best outcome is if we BOTH commit 100% and make our M better than ever - yes, that would be the best scenario. But I know it's not that easy. I am not saying that I do not want to try just because it's hard. He betrayed me so many times I do not feel like taking any more chances...

But today when H asked if I still need to think about going to MC, I said okay, we can do MC. We have to start somehow, at some point, right? I want us to continue to live separately, with separate finances, because that will be sort of a litmus test - if he continues to take care of his own finances yet still want to reconcile - then maybe there is more than just finances.

Once I decided that, I felt better. If this fails, I will not waste my time (hopefully) next time and will just move on. In a way, being able to feel that way made me feel safer. I will be okay either way. And now I truly feel that as long as I am okay, DS3 will be fine either way too. And that is a very good feeling.

Milk

Yeah, but... whose M IS? Or WAS? Show me a 100% "healthy" M and I will show you a perfect, shining set of hen's teeth.

These upheavals have a way of making BSs look at our M with a jaundiced eye. So much so that by the time WSs come out of the fog, they're dismayed that we've already done our own reassessment of the M and we're not immediately ready to jump back into that particular fray, thank you very much!

I think the trick isn't in considering whether the M was "healthy", or "functional" but in evaluating strengths and weaknesses. The strengths are the reasons to try again. The weaknesses is the stuff that needs to be worked on.


Now this is FANTASTIC. Thumbsup, Milkshake!

You are awesome, milk! Way to stick to your guns. I hope it all turns out well for you, either way. You are one tough chic, I love reading your stuff!

Thanks RiverTam and JJ. I am really happy that I can feel this way. It took me a long time to reach this point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I do hope that no matter what happens and whoever I end up being with, next time I can "choose" to be with someone, instead of staying with him out of necessity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In the past H always said that he does not know what to do without me, which made me feel good, but that was not healthy either. He has to "choose" to be with me because he wants to, not because he "needs" me.

I was much attached to DS3 as well, and in the beginning I did not know what to do during those weekends when I did not have him around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I felt so betrayed and unfair that H walked out and I had to share my time with DS3 with him on top of the whole thing! But now I can enjoy my time alone without DS3. People have told me that the time is on my side and I will eventually be okay - it was very hard to believe, but they were absolutely right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now I have so many things I want to do in my life, with or without H. And when I think of my list I get excited. In a way, this horrible experience was what I needed - it definitely made me stronger and independent.

I will continue to take one day at time and better myself...

Feeling a little down today... H sent an email saying that we "should have filed together" as we could have benefited more. I just replied that since we were separated with separate finances and were getting a divorce, I felt it was the rational thing to do and decided to file separately earlier this year, which is true.

It's just that the fact he is focusing on this tells me that it's really the money, more than me or the family, that he is interested in. Which I suspected so should not be a surprise, but it does depresses me.

I don't think I have whole a lot of hope or expectation for him anymore, but seeing him acting this way still affects me emotionally.

Oh well, life goes on... If he was that kind of person, then I have even a better reason to move on with happy thoughts knowing that I do not have to put up with such self-centered attitude...