KJ, No..I think he is using passive-agressiveness and avoidance tactics to prevent CO from knowing the whole truth. I do NOT believe he is trying as hard as you think to heal the M. If he was he would be working overtime to prove himself worthy of CO's trust. That can only begin by him opening himself up completely. NOw, CO and bit of a 2x4 for you my dear..give your hubby the same access to your email, cell etc.. that you require for him. Go back and read up on plan A again. Read up on Radical Honesty. You BOTH need to change. Call the Harleys and set up counseling.

believer,

Thanks for your concern. I already told him I'm not sticking around for my b-day. My past couple have been really bad and I don't want to be around here feeling sorry for myself. He was two of the reasons my last couple have been bad, so I don't want to spend them with him.

We talked last night about this whole thing and he wants to take me to see Live with Regis and Kelly instead so I can still go to Oprah with my friend. I actually like Live better, but I have to build myself up to go to NY since that is where he met OW. I know it sounds immature, but I don't want to go and not have a good time b/c I am thinking of that the whole time.

I am definitely going to go somewhere with my H, we just don't know where yet. And, yes, I am expecting him to put more effort into our M. I won't have it any other way!!

--Sarah

It is not "immature" to be afraid of places that will trigger you. Please stop blaming yourself.

nikko,


I agree. I should have waited till he got home.


I am not going to give up time with my friends b/c of a mistake he chose to make. I think everyone needs some time away from their spouses. I just don't think they should spend that time alone. They should be with at least someone else who the spouse can trust.


I know what you mean by this. But you have to understand I never had any problem with supporting my H or doing everything for him pre-A. My top need is family committment and he was giving that to me by being faithful and being a great father, so I would have done anything for him. That was all I needed. As I said before, I am very independant.

As far as telling me I'm pretty, I never needed that either. What upset me about all of this is that he gave it to OW and never gave it to me, so I know he was capable of doing it and of course, any girl would like it. I just never needed it, but just didn't think that was the type of person he was. I wasn't that way either so it didn't matter to me.

We did get along really great pre-A. We have a lot in common and our personalities are a great match. We compliment eachother (not literally, I mean whatever I don't know, he does) and we have a lot of fun together. We never argued about anyting before.

So that is what I mean when I talk about the stuff he didn't do before. It only bothers me now b/c he took advantage of me and did things I would have liked to have done to me (not needed) to someone else. Do you understand??



I was resentful of him stopping me from doing things I wanted to do, but as I said before he was still filling my # 1 EN which was family commitment, so I saw past it. I don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing.

KJ,


Can you tell me why you think this? I think we have actually made a lot of progress in just this past week. What am I not seeing??

I think my H and I both want to heal but we are on different pages. As you can see this has been drawn out since Nov. by my H and we are both warn out. I think the main problem with my H is that he doesn't understand the devastation the D-day 2 had on me.


faithful,


I don't know why you say this. My H does have acces to all of my emails and cell phone records. I never hid anything from him. The only thing he doesn't have access to is my work email and if he came to my job, I would show him it anytime. Did he say I was hiding something from him?

I know what plan A is. I have mentioned this is something I need to work on and I feel in the last week I have been, especially since my H has been more open to me. Is there something I am missing here? I don't understand why everyond is looking at us as if we are moving backward.

Yeah, my H was upset last night about the picture thing. But I don't know what he told you about it. I told him I found the picture and that I thought she was pretty. I did not judge him for saying she was unattractive. I told him that everyone has an opinion and I didn't think he was lying, that maybe he does think she's unattractive. He wasn't upset about anything I said to him, he was upset b/c I looked up the picture. I don't want anyone to think that I was calling him a liar all night and putting him down or something.

Well, we are going on a date tonight to a play and my nephew is in the hospital with phenmonia so please pray for him. He is a little over a year old. We are going to visit him too.

We'll keep everyone updated!

--Sarah

Sarah,



If you've read Dr. Harley's books, you must have missed the part where he strongly recommends you and your H be each others primary recreational companions. Individual interests are fine, when your M is farther into recovery.
For now, you need to do as much as possible together, and I'm not just talking about recreational activities, I'm talking about grocery shopping, running kids to and from sporting events, gardening and other outside chores, etc. Don't you ever wonder what he's doing when you're not with him? Do you REALLY trust him not to call OW, go see her, email her, etc.? I know my H likes to go everywhere with me because his worst fear is me running into OM in public. I think I would handle this type of contact just fine, but that's not the point here. My H needs this reassurance, so I do it out of respect for him and the recovery of our M.



No way. Impossible. You're a woman, and a human being. We ALL need more than one EN met by our spouse's. If you believe this, you are sorely mistaken.



I lost count the number of times you contradicted yourself in this statement. Can you see it? You never needed to be told you were pretty, yet it pisses you off to no end that the OW is pretty. If it were never important to you, you would not be feeling sad right now about the fact your H told the OW she was pretty! Am I the only one seeing this here? "And of course any girl would like it." Yep, even you, little miss independent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I think if you're honest with yourself, you've just realized that perhaps affection (this includes compliments about your appearance) from your spouse IS important to you. I am incredibly independent myself, but I don't see where that has anything to do with enjoying compliments from my H.



Bad thing. Again, you're kidding yourself if you believe getting your primary EN met is enough to make a marriage complete. Family Committment is my #1 EN too, but look where my #2 EN (affection) landed me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Yep. Neither of you are being honest with YOURSELVES. I know both of you have heard a ton about being honest to each other, but you're overlooking this HUGE need, to look inside yourselves and be able to be open and honest with your own feelings and perceptions. Forget for a minute who you were before the A. Think about who you are now, and how the A changed you. If you're honest with yourself, I think you'll find that you've already made changes that are going to make your marriage better than it was pre-A. And that's my next point. Your M wasn't so great pre-A. Your PERCEPTION of your M might have been just fine, but you weren't being honest with yourself then either. You had needs pre-A, you have needs now, and FC alone ain't gonna cut the mustard.



You're more than likely dead on about this. That's where SH can come in to help. He has an incredible ability to help the WS realize the enormity of what they have done. More importantly, he shows the WS how to show the BS what they understand about the pain and devastation they have caused. Knowing things is one thing, knowing how to fix things is a whole 'nother ball game. No offense, but neither of you have this part down yet, and you need help getting there.

If you seek SH's assistance, you will end up like SO many people here. You will hate yourself for spending so much time being in so much pain, causing your spouse so much pain, when all you had to do was reach out to SH for help. How do I know this? Well, let me just say this first. I do not want what I'm about to say sound like I'm bragging, okay? I just want to prove this point. You have been in recovery since November. My H and I have been in recovery since 3/1/06. We are MUCH further along in our recovery than you and your H. Gosh, I'm really sorry for the way that sounds, but please believe me, I only wanted to make that point. The Harley's are a gift from God, use them.


No, not exactly. He was upset because he saw this as another attempt by you to keep from making progress in the recovery of your M. Sounds like you interpreted this event much differently than your H did. Probably should talk about it with him again.

If any of what I've said here sounds like I'm defending your H, I do apologize. I will never do that, because I do understand that the WS is responsible for the PRESENT condition of the marriage. I believe both spouses are responsible for the FUTURE of their marriage. That's why I continue to post to both of you, 'cuz that's the ultimate goal, to have a future with your H.

I really gotta shut up now, man, what a chatter box I am today! Please know, I am in the ring with you and your H. We just need to get you both into the center of the ring, rather than hanging out in your own corners.

Take care and God bless,

KJ

good post kj.....;)

Holy cow! Coming from you Nikko, I am just glowing right now!! Thank you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> See, we really CAN be friends, I just knew it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope you're having a marvelous day!

KJ

crap---your not gonna like me again.....lol i really am laughing...but we all need to be careful...just above faith alluded to something and sarah picked up on it and wondered what he was saying over there...which by the way wasnt anything bad...all normal...lol...we have to be very careful not to drag stuff back and forth. they need separate threads and we need to honor that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am sad someone on here would boast (yes you did) that she is so well recovered and think that we all would be if only we did as she did, but sorry - we are all different - and so are our marriages - judging others by our own is unfair and just plain wrong. Do you think SH or Bill or even Joyce would tell anyone that kind of thing?

What are you thinking - Didja have the Dumb bird sitting on your shoulder when you typed that?

So why aren't we healed in just a couple of months - why not KJ? We have been in recovery for 4 years - solid MBs - I have just talked to Bill and Joyce two days ago - they didn't say if I had only been talking to SH four years ago, I would have done better - I wonder why?

Is it because your marriage and your recovery have absolutely nothing to do with mine or Sarah's or anyone else's? Just be grateful if you are doing well - i thought we were doing great much further out than you are now - but I didn't boast - CO is in early days, human and hurting, knock it off.

Here is a life lesson for you - There is no hierarchy in pain or recovery. Say that a few times to yourself.

Now I know why you ticked Nikko off.


SP

So Sarah,

You are doing OK - do not go to NY - if it is one of your triggers - then don't put yourself through it - that is from Willard Harley to me this week - not Steve but the man himself.

(I know - I typo'd harvey in my post the other day - lol)

I was asking him how to desensitize myself from triggers and he told me to avoid the triggers and if they were in my home town we should move. He said that I should be hurting right now and it will be two years from the last D day that I will stop feeling so bad. My husband needed to make the changes to make sure I did not have to face triggers he caused.

Your husband offering to take you somewhere that hurts you is an attack - a PA attack. And then when you ssy no, he is the victim of your response to his "kind" offer.

Does this sound familiar throughout your marriage - or since your D Day? He does something that on the surface is kind but underneath hurts you? Then when you show you are hurt by it, he acts as if you are trying to hurt him and he is just trying to be helpful and healing?

Just wondered.

By the way - I understand about not being hurt by no compliments etc when you thought you were happy and he loved you - but when you find he does for OW what he never did for you - THEN it hurts - THEN you feel like a fool for thinking he never did that kind of thing for anyone, or he would have done it for YOU. THEN the resentment sets in - all the times you felt it was "how he was" and you loved him for "how he was" - Now you know he just didn't care enough to do it for you - his faithful "serving out of love" wife - loving to take care of him.

But - he does it for a whxxe - someone he is seeing behind your back - a woman who sleeps with him even when she knows he is married? This is whom he does it for???? Someone who doesn't love him or herself enough to want a good above board relatioship? He couldn't do it for you and now you find he does it for a TROLLOP???

Does this describe your thought pattern? Sounds normal to me - poor girl - it is often the way - you are not the only wife - I belong to the largest Yahoo marriage problems list on the web. On our list, we see that it has happened to many - don't feel you are the only one - lots of betrayed wives naturally feel this way to the same situation - it is like a subversive attack you just realised he did, by withholding what he COULD and WOULD do - just not for you.

SP

add me to the list....felt that way for a long time....all normal.

silver...i do disagree with one thing though...and i think you'll see it when i type it...you are also telling her to not go to NY...which by the way i kinda agree with,but...you are telling her to not go cause dr. harley told YOU not to do those things.(ya kinda jumped all over kj for that...lol) the advice we get directly from them, the harleys, is highly individualized after we have a few sessions. they do differ from patient to patient....lol

so we have to share it with others in that context....did you have a excrutiating time with triggers? was this after getting hit with them over and over and NOT becomming desensitized to them??? that is what i would do to...in fact i did....lol. but most of my triggers were beat by sheer will and going "THROUGH" them. facing them. some it worked for...a few it didnt. the house ones didnt....we just built and moved into our dream home. problem solved! but i did fight and go through the others on my own and it worked...and it felt great to beat them. that is what worked for ME. it didnt work for you so he advised something else....CO has to find out on her own which way is gonna work for her....some do talk thereapy, some do other types of therapy....some go through it....some move immediately.

other than that i think it was a dead on post....trollop...i just giggle when i hear that word...lol

Nikko,

You're right. I fell into it because Sarah asked what he was saying, but still, I shouldn't have told her. Thanks for the reminder.

By the way, it takes much more than this ti get me into a hissy fit!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KJ

SP,

If you go back and read my post, I prefaced it by saying I WASN'T trying to brag. You're right, as is Nikko, different things work for different people. My only point to Sarah, was that I desperately want her to talk to one of the Harley's, and since her H has spoken to SH (she knows this), I encouraged he be the one to talk to.

I am not one to brag or boast. I meant that statement only as encouragement for Sarah, to give her something to try that MIGHT work for her. I apologize if it didn't come out right.

I realize I am lucky so far in my recovery. I attribute it to my awesome H and God. I have been more than humbled by my actions, and seek forgiveness every day. I pray every day for everyone on this site, that they too might find happiness in their marraiges, and salvation on this earth.

Thank you for being honest. Have a wonderful Sunday.

KJ

Good Morning, Sarah,

I dropped my mom off at the airport this morning. It was a very nice visit.

I just finished catching up on your's and Sorry's week. My perspective is that you two are still both doing well with your healing and recovery. Recovery and healing is not a continual forward motion! Forward is the hopeful, primary direction, but it is not a straight path at this time! I see posters on both threads getting all up in arms over the state of your marriage due to the events of the week.


No, your actions (OW pic) and your H's (anger reaction) were not ideal, but I most certainly do not see this as a spiriling downward at all. You are both learning what works and what doesn't in this recovery process. You, most of all, are learning what works for you and what doesn't work for you as you heal. Although, not particularly helpful, I certainly don't see your revisiting of the emails and searching for OW pic as some immature backwards motion in recovery. I see it as part of the recovery. Your H's less than stellar reaction to you doing that is not some immature giant step into a spiraling down M, it is part of the recovery process and discovering and learning what is working and what isn't.

As I caught up on all the postings this week, I felt that there was a discouraging air to some of the posts to you both. I may be branded the Happy LaLa Cheerleader of this group, but so be it! You two are doing terrific. IT IS SO HARD. YES, YES IT IS. I wish it wasn't and I feel great pain for you both as you are figuring this whole difficult process out, but I wrap that pain for you in hope and prayer and I sense that your recovery is on a very successful path. I do not what you to get discouraged. I want you to continue to press on through the UPS and the DOWNS right now. There will continue to be DOWNS! That doesn not mean you are spiraling down and not doing well with your recovery. There seemed to be some negativity in your approach thus far to recovery. I do not see any negatives! You two are both working very hard and learning and growing from this process day by precious day.

I feel so strongly I wish I could shout at the computer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the hard work, Sarah, it is worth it.
Blessings to you today,
Glad

KJ - another life lesson - if you find yourself writing "I do not want to brag" - it means you know you are bragging.

Message to self - read what we write. You are telling yourself more than us - if you go ahead and brag you are then giving yourself permission to do it as you wrote a disclaimer.

SP

No it wasn't like that - FWH didn't re injure me with the same triggers over and over. I only have three - after four years of up down repeat EA etc denial etc etc. Pretty Amazing Really - but believe me I had worked so hard on me for the previous 8 years - believing that if I was a better wife - person etc our marriage would get better - LOL Same ol' dream - not that I could pin down where it was bad - just had gut instinct, that something was up for years. Now I know it was. The therapy before D Day was excellent prep for the D Day and what came after. I had all my stress coping tools at the ready and up front in my consciousness. I still felt the pain and went up and down - but didn't kill myself or him, OR end up in the stress centre. I had developed lots of love and patience for myself first and then others through that.

Now you are projecting your experience on me ... lol ... h-o-w complicated is this? ... *grin*

I was asking Dr. Bill, for help desensitizing myself from the two triggers I felt were ingrained in me and spoilt our 15 hours recreational, just as Sarah keeps agreeing to stop asking questions - to help the process along.

Dr Bill, told me specifically - "When it comes to dealing with triggers I am telling the women I talk to not to try to DEAL with them. It takes TWO YEARS for women to desensitize completely from triggers. So until that time from the original trigger, Avoid them" - and then as an example - he talked about one of my triggers - in my home town, and said "I know this sounds radical but I am consistently advising BWs now, to not go to what triggers them - even if it means that they and their BH moving jobs and towns. Men react to them totally differently - they can deal with them much better in different ways, so if you were a BH you would get different advice than you do as a BW"

I wish I had a transcript for you - but oh well - forgot to tape it for the board ;-D

I had questioned his response to me not to try to desensitise myself - so he said what I detail above talking generally about women and men and how they dealt with triggers. His advice to a man is different to his advice to women about this as we are different creatures and different emotionally. (This may be why KJ is doing so well) - men, (according to Dr Bill) have different ways of dealing with triggers - and they are therefore more efficient at calming them.

I hope this makes it clear - that is why I keep spouting it - it was general - different gender specific explanation of why he was telling me AND all the other BWs what he did.

Joyce had to repeat it to me to get me to see that he really wanted ME to take it for MY advice - that it was so for all women and it was his current advice to all women previous to the two year mark, about triggers. Sarah certainly qualifies and I am within a year of my Last D day and the trigger it caused.

SP

SP,

Whatever. You don't know me at all. You're terrible at judging people on this forum. I'm not going to defend myself to you any longer, it's not what this forum is for. I'm done on this thread and sorry's. Happy?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps YOU are the one who needs to re-read things before posting them. We're all hurting, I came here to heal, not hurt more.

KJ

hey CO....

been crazy-busy last week for me, too busy to hang out here for a while...

lots of clutter here...just thought id say HI!!!

HI!!!

Hi Sarah,

How are you doing?

Talk to me about this picture. I would love to help you handle this trigger.

((((((Sarah))))))

--Michele

Sarah,

Where are you? Are you having a bad time right now - you can vent and yell to us - let it all out - if the first word of your post is VENT - no one will call you on it - will they folks ....

SP