****UPDATE****

We had our first counseling session last night -- and everyone was right about the outcome. Nothing.

The meeting started off with my WS explaining that "we've been having a lot of problems", and that we've "tried counseling before" (untrue...we went to 3 sessions and he didn't like what the therapist was saying so he broke all future appointments). He stated that he didn't think he had a voice or say in anything (again, untrue, we make a lot of decisions based on each other's input). There was, as WAT previously warned, a lot of babbling and a lot of things said that didn't make any sense. He was scrambling for his defense of the affair. But we all know it's not about the cap being left off the toothpaste.

I tried, in earnest, to sit and listen but when he said that he has tried to talk to me but "I just didn't listen", I wanted to scream! Never, have we EVER had any conversation that said "if this doesn't change, I can't stay in the marriage". In fact, we hardly ever "fight". We would have disagreements, but never shouting or loosing control by either party. I kept trying to repeat in my head that he was a cornered lion trying his best to justify his affairs. But in fact, it was very hurtful and the psychiatrist must have thought I was a total nut-job to screw up this marriage with all my admissions of faults.

And on the subject of the psychiatrist, he was a total waste of time. He said practically nothing the whole time, but let WS ramble and spurt out accusations, while I sat there denying all the accusations. At one point, the psychiatrist turned to me and said "I don't want to put words him your husband's mouth, but what I'm understanding is that he doesn't want to fix the marriage". At that point I felt like I was alone, cast out, and that he was taking sides. Why didn't the psychiatrist ask him WHY he was having the affairs? The affairs were not the problem, they were the symptom of his disease. We have to get to the root of the issues, what emotional needs weren't being met, and his depression. And the depression was brought up and my WS accussed ME of haggling that he needed to get on meds, when in fact it was always HE that said "I need to get help" and I was only agreeing. We've even had conversations where he has apologized for his moods and has told me "I know i hurt you when I withdraw, but it's not you, it's me and I'm trying hard to fight it" (a usless point if you have a chemical imbalance).

I did a lot of "I feel", and "I accept responsibility", but I could tell that my WSs didn't want to hear it. Again, everyone warned me that he probably wouldn't be ready to hear that I wanted to repair the marriage and that I take responsibility. He said "I don't think the marriage is fixable". And it was at that point that he admitted that he was seeing someone (I had originally posted that he said he had an affair and that it was over). So, at least, he stopped lying about that.

I know it was premature, but my emotions were running rampid and I said "as long as there is a third person in this marriage, I know I don't have a chance". It was probably the wrong thing to say, but this meeting was heart-wrenching. I was having fingers pointeed at me left and right (again, as everyone said would happen), and the room was spinning out of control, it was confusing, and all seemed so unfair.

He cried a lot, which told me he was definately feeling the pain and was tormented. At least I know our love is not dead when he said he does still love me. The last part of the session, after we stopped pointing fingers, was me repeating my Plan A. I told him that I realized I failed in the marriage. I failed to meet his emotional needs and that I was sorry. I told him that, had I ever known that my faults were causing our marriage to end that I would have done something to change a long time ago, but I was here, at this meeting, and if there was one thing he took home with him was the fact that I love him with all my heart and I was willing to do anything to make changes in ME.

I think he heard me. The psychiatrist, in ending the meeting, looked at me and said "it is clearly obvious that you love your husband and it is blatently obvious that you are willing to do whatever it takes to make changes. If your husband takes one thing from this session, it should be those words". It was at that point that I broke down sobbing, my face in my hands and I couldn't get under control. I could see that my husband was looking at me (we sat beside one another on a couch). The silence in the room, besides my obvious anguish, was unbearable.

Again, I didn't feel like the psychiatrist was worth the paper his degree was written on. He didn't provide us any insight, any tools, and basically said "maybe you two should come back in a week or two". But what until then??? What should we do??? Just keep continuing on the path we're on??? Maybe he's seen this type of thing before and didnt' want to waste his energy. Maybe he thinks he can't do anything for us and it has to run it's course. Who knows. I'm going to call the insurance company today and see if I can change psychiatrists.

As we were leaving, the receptionist asked if we wanted another appointment. My WS looked at me and I looked at him and he turned back to the receptionist and said "yes, we'll make one for next week". A total surprise to me, although he was probably releaved that he wasn't made out to be the bad guy by the psychiatrist, so it's not a threatening session.

But the biggest revelation to this whole meeting happened out at the curb where our cars were parked. I asked my WS "where do we go from here?". I got no answer, just more tears. Again, at least I feel that I have tapped into his emotions and he's at least feeling the pain, which tells me our relationship has a chance. One doesn't cry if they aren't feeling something. So many marriages are dead and the WS has the "I don't care anymore" attitude. I told him that I love him, and that my heart and arms will be forever open to him. I also told him that I was sorry (just a generic "sorry", nothing attached). It was at that point, with tears in his eyes and a shaking lip, he looked at me and said "I'm sorry, too".

He surprised me and said "We'll talk, okay?". He had held out his hand to hold mine at that point. I'm not trying to make a lot of the gesture and the comment, for all I know "we'll talk" means we'll have to put everything to rest to move on. I just don't know. I hugged him and said "thank you" for coming to the meeting. He asked if I was able to drive, and I said I would be, and at the same time gently reached up to wipe away a tear that had fallen down my cheek. We hugged again, for a long time, and again I told him "I never thought I could love someone as much as I love you. I realize now my mistake, and I'm intelligent enough to make changes and I promise you that I can, and will, to save our love -- it means that much to me". His response was to hold me tighter. He said he had to get to work, and again said "we'll talk". I asked him if he would be coming home tonight and he said "you bet I will".

But, alas, he didn't come home until after midnight and I had already gone to bed. I wasn't expecting to talk last night, as we were both emotionally drained. He did snuggle me in bed (spooning to most people). In fact, this form of physical attachment has never stopped even as he announced his affair and that he was moving.

This morning, he was in good spirits and we didn't say anything about the meeting. I did check his cell phone history and he had called the OW a half hour after we left the meeting.

I truly don't know where this is going, and I know that no one here has the crystal ball to tell me what is going to happen, but I do have some questions that maybe someone can guide me to:

1) I found the lease to the apartment, and the move-in date was 3/3/06. I don't know why he hasn't moved, and I'm not asking (the OW is not on the lease, only our 2 children's names as "authorized tennants"). Should I ask him when he is leaving, or not push the subject as to push him into making a decision? It may be that he's waiting for something (furniture, the OW to move in...who knows). In other words, the move may be out of his control, but I do believe it's going to happen.

2) As repeated over and over on this board, Plan A is about me and how I can change. Do I keep repeating to my WS that I will/am making changes to ME?, or is that just a broken record and will it go in one ear and out the other? Do I keep telling him I love him? How much of myself do I expose without it being "too much"?

3) I realize that his affair has to run it's course, and as most have said here on this board, it has very little chance of surviving. But what are the statistics to this? Is this really factual? I fear once he moves out, he will have the freedom to conduct his affair with no accountability to me.

4) I may already have an answer to #3 because my WS wants to be the knight in shining armour (or, fence-sitter). He repeated in the meeting that he will ALWAYS be there for me, for the children, and our joint business. Maybe he's just trying to save face, maybe it makes him feel good to say these things, but the reality of it is that the OW will most likely not tolerate him coming over to our house all the time to satisfy his promise. This will put stress on an already unstable affair. Am I correct in this assumption?

I realize I have to let him go. I know I have no control over that. I'm relying on my Plan A to sink in and since he has shown that he still has feelings, he will always remember that he has been invited back into our marriage when he is ready to come back.

In the meantime, I will coast and stay the course. I just need some help on how often I should use Plan A. I don't want to sound like a broken record to him, and in fact, he may resist my affirmation over and over because it's hard to hear kind words from someone you've hurt.

One last question: we used to communicate in email at least 2-3 times a day (prior to the discovery of the affair). Once the affair surfaced, his emails stopped. I get maybe 1 or 2 a week, very generic, that typically ends in the usual "I love you's". My heart tells me to write him letters, to tell him how much I want to rebuild our marriage and that I admit that I did not meet his emotional needs. Or, just quck emails like "you're in my thoughts today, and always".

Would this be a mistake? Maybe he's not ready to keep hearing these things and I would only be pushing him away further. Is absence the best way to make the heart grow fonder?

xHale - you have learned what so many of us have had to learn. Most "marriage counselors" are really Divorce Counselors. They will help you get a divorce and feel good about it, but don't do a thing to help you save your marriage.

It's no wonder your WH is feeling so good after that session and is willing to go back. From what you have posted, all WH heard was YOU taking 100% of the responsibility for all the problems in the marriage and stating that YOU will do ANYTHING to keep your marriage with him.

All he heard was that he is off the hook. No matter how badly he treats you -- up to and including having another woman in his life -- he will always have you there, too!

You are sending him the wrong message here. Unconditional love is for parents to give to their children -- it's not for spouses to give to each other. Why? Because too many spouses will react exactly as yours has, and assume that they can treat you as badly as they want and there will be NO consequences.

You should not have to sit in silence and stuff down your feelings, either in a counseling session or in conversations with your WH. All that will do, again, is teach WH that he can treat you any way he wants and there will NO consequences and you will just take it.

Is that what you want? Because, sadly, that's what you've got.

Plan A is not about stuffing down your feelings, being a doormat and tolerating anything the WS dishes out. Yes, it is about making changes in yourself to make you a better marriage partner, but it is ALSO about exposing the affair and setting boundaries so that your WS will learn to have some respect for you.

I strongly suggest that you get the book *Love Must Be Tough* by James Dobson. The short version is that affairs are caused by a blantant lack of respect for the BS by the WS, and that that respect must be restored before the marriage has a chance of recovery.

And I would not trust any WS's tears, either. Remember, he was very relieved and happy to learn that YOU are willing to take 100% of the responsibility for his actions and that no one -- not you and not a psychiatrist -- is going to hold him accountable. Of course he's happy!

You must learn that Plan A is both a carrot AND a stick. So far you have grabbed onto the carrot, but you will not have anything worth saving if you refuse to use the stick as well.

You will only have more of what you've got right now.

Please keep posting.
Mulan

Hi xHale - I was patiently waiting for your update.

I think you did as good as you could have in the session.

Psychiatrists are not marriage counselors and this one very likely doesn't understand the dynamics of affairs. Or, understand affairs very well and was just taking it all in.

But these words are telling -
OF COURSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO FIX THE MARRIAGE!!!!

He's been busted on the affair and - for the moment - doesn't feel like ending it.

Hello??? (he says rhetoricallly to everyone)

Sound familiar??

Thus, I conclude, this shrink has no knowledge of the Mothership. He/she does not understand that infidelity equates to temporary insanity; and concluding that the present mindset of a infidel is predictive of future mindsets is folly.

This, however, is true:


I'll take a shot at your questions.


Don't ask him about moving. The reason why he hasn't already could be anything - including his indecision over whether he should.

You've stated your regret over contributing to the poor marital conditions, so you don't need to repeat it. Instead of saying you're making changes and that you love him, show him. Be the person he first fell in love with.


The statistics are dismal. In "Private Lies" Frank Pittman states that in five years from the onset of an affair, it's much more likely that the original partners will be together than the affair partners. Based on what you already know about infidelity, does it make sense that stable relationships will result? It's hard for stability to take root on shifting sand - lies and deceit.

Moving out isn't so bad. If he moves out and afterwards, when you go to Plan B, he'll have to get ALL his needs met in the fantasy world. Many times, moving out to be full time with the OP has been the turning point for the end of the affair. The grass turns out NOT to be greener. Simple, huh?


Yepper! That said, once (if) you go to Plan B, he gets "relieved" of this stress - but this causes a new stressor. You have taken control and he doesn't GET to be there for you, etc.


You Plan A continuously. Remember, Plan A is all about you becoming a better you. How you treat your H while in Plan A may vary a little, e.g., you may want to be a bit aloof in some interaction - but you absolutely cease all LBs, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, etc. - to the extent your emotions allow. Plan A doesn't mean you profess your love for him every other sentence. Be the person he fell in love with. Lure him. It is VERY Plan A like from time to time to be mysterious, aloof, and coy. you're a WOMAN! Drive him NUTS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Please...then, please...give me guidance. I sit here, with tears streaming down my face so alone, confused, hurt, not knowing what I should be doing or saying. I thought I was implementing Plan A, but I guess I'm wrong.

What boundaries do I set? Do I step up to the plate and ask when he's leaving? How does one inact Plan A with the WH out of the house? I thought it was a better idea to still have him under the roof?

And as I have read on this site, it was my understanding that the affair has to run it's course. Until then, I have to show my WH that I am willing to accept reponsibility and change, because he's certainly not ready to do this now. I am giving him the "open door" that once the affair is ended, I am agreeing to a rebuild. I don't want to be a doormat. In fact, I want to yell at him and say this is unfair, but I know he is tormented and confused and this will only push him into the OWs arms faster.

I'm just so confused...please....

Should we not go again to the psychiatrist? Should I look up a marriage counselor in the yellow pages? Or should I cease doing both?

Are you saying the moment he moves out I implement Plan B? I thought one was supposed to stay in Plan A for at least 2-3 months?

xHale - it's difficult for us to communicate with complete assurance that you understand what we're saying.

Stay calm and logic this through.

Stop now focusing on the "taking responsibility" part. You've already had your confessional. I hope I didn't communicate that you own 100% of the responsibility. Hardly. I think you understand this.

As for setting boundaries, you should communicate with no uncertain terms that you disapprove of his actions and these are NOT conducive to a functional mariage. Period. That's all you can do. You cannot control his actions - just state their affect on your wellbeing. This is VERY difficult to do and your confusion is understandable.

Please consider - after you get SAA - to have an individual appointment with one of the MB counselors. The direct communication with them can more effectively resolve your confusion than we can.

Now, slow down.

S l o w d o w n .

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

WAT

What WAT said.

Read *Surviving an Affair.* You will not understand many of the posts here until you do.

I will find the "Carrot and Stick" post for you and list it here.

Remember that Plan A is not permanent. It is only long enough for you to demonstrate your changes to the WS - usually not more than 2-3 months - and not so long that you start to hate him for his massively unfair treatment of you.

That's when it's time for Plan B. Plan B lets you protect what love you have left for your WS, because when they are throwing their affair in your face every day you can start to despise them pretty quickly. It protects you from their cruelty and it protects THEM from losing you forever. Got it?

Hold on and I will find that post for you.
Mulan

Okay, here ya go:

"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am trying to take deep breaths, but my mind is whirling a hundred miles and hour. I really DO appreciate everyone's insight, as it is helping ME come out of the fog I am in.

I keep hearing the same thing repeating: take responsibility for not meeting some sort of emotional need in my WH, which I did. I didn't say that I accept responsibility for his affair, as that was his choice. But I am trying to show love, support, and the willingness to improve on ME to make this marriage work. I realize the demise of the affair is up to him. But in order for that to happen, it has to run its course. Thanks, WAT, as it has helped me understand that I shouldn't keep repeating that I take responsibility -- I've already stated that. Now I have to show him (which I've been doing long before I ever heard of Plan A). But if there is an emotional need not being met, I'm unsure of how to fill it if my WH doesn't tell me what it is. I filled out the emotional questionaire on this site for me, but I just don't know how to do it for my WH.

Again, I will ask, is marriage counseling premature at this time? It was obvious last night that he is not willing to end the affair, but our marriage. That's today. Not tomorrow (or, a month, two months, or a year from now). I don't want to be a doormat, but I'm trying to handle this delicate balance of accepting some ownership, and at the same time show my WH that I am willing to do whatever it takes. I can't accept a psychiatrist looking at us and saying "welp...he wants out so that's what you do". That's not marriage repair. That's marriage death.

If...I set boundaries and tell him that the affair is unacceptable and if this marriage is to work he has to end it, i'm giving him an ultimatum! We know which choice he will make. In fact, he's already made the choice by stating that he is moving and that he doesn't think our marriage is fixable. But again, that's today...not tomorrow or the day after. I don't know when, but it is my belief he will come back around. I know he loves me. He tells me everyday. I pray that all is not lost.

I have ordered SAA and I'm anxiously looking in my mailbox each day.

I've just never been through this before and I'm trying my best to cope, and do the right thing for ME and my marriage.

For him, yes.

But if this shrink can get to his roots, that can't be bad. The shrink may be able to help him identify things about him that influence his inability to have normal relationships - if that is a real problem. But this is different than MC.

Can you afford individual MC for you with the MB counselors? If so, set up an appointment for sometime late next week at the earliest to give your self a chance to get through SAA. This is the smartest thing you can do at the moment.

I'm not ready to say throw in the towel with the current shrink. At least your H will go. Before the next appt. you can fully prepare (if you think you need more) to counter the "responsibility" thing regarding his decision to have an affair and be prepared to counter the "he's not willing to work on the marriage" thing.

The downside of stopping the counseling while he's willing to go along with it is that he can then point to your decision as indication that you don't want to try. "I tried and she didn't want to" or "She stopped because it wasn't what she wanted to hear."

All the more reason to get professional help from one of the MB counselors.

WAT

The thing is, this has been the way I have interacted with WH since finding out the affair. I'm a spiritual person, a peace-maker, and I do not rant and rave, throw up my hands, spit out uglies...it's not my spiritual self. Just the opposite. I've been loving, caring, kind, funny (yes, joking around as our sense of humors are what kindled our relationship in the beginning and has always been a part of our lives). I don't walk around being a pouty-Patty. I try to show a light, aloft side to myself (while in fact dying inside).

So...I will stop with the cofessionals and just continue what I was doing. But you're right, at some point, he has to feel the pain.

Now for even more pain on my part, and please everyone...don't be judgemental because this is my heart that is injured, and when it comes to the heart, the mind doesn't always rule.

WH is definately a cake-eater. Since finding out of the affair, I over-compensated by providing him with even more affection, compliments, very nice home-cooked meals, even making sure that I was presentable each day (doing hair/makeup). And at night, as we sleep in the same bed, I have not resisted his attention. Sometimes he advanced on me, others I awoke him. I know, in part, it was out of desperation to "replace" the sexual pleasures he was getting from the OW (a "competition" of sorts). So, I realize that I am being a enabler with a capital "E". I am guilty for prolonging my own pain. He is having his cake and eating it too. This is confirmed that he is living the best of both worlds (while I know he is miseralbe and tormented, deep inside). I know what I must do...I must deny him at all costs. This will be difficult because we are both very sexual beings and I've always loved our sexual relationship.

Okay...let the finger shaking begin.

Nope. You won't get it from me.

Those things are EXACTLY what you ought to be doing in Plan A - as long as you also communicate very clearly that his affair is likely to destroy your marriage if it continues.

Carrot and stick.

You've got the carrot part nailed.

The stick part is tougher for some to integrate with the carrot.

If you have a reasonable suspicion he's having unprotected sex with OW, no more sex from you. No can do. This is common sense, right? But this doesn't mean you start ranting and raving.

Yes, this is confusing. Keep reading and asking questions.

WAT

***If...I set boundaries and tell him that the affair is unacceptable and if this marriage is to work he has to end it, i'm giving him an ultimatum!***

There is a difference between "boundaries" and "ultimatums". The two are often confused and there was a recent thread about just this topic.

Try this:

ULTIMATUM: "WH, you have to give up the OP and come home and work on our marriage - or else!"

BOUNDARY: "WH, I am not willing to live in a marriage where there are three of us. If you choose to do that, I will remove myself from the triangle."

Do you see the difference?

With an Ultimatum, you are trying to control HIS behavior by giving him orders.

With a Boundary, you are stating what YOU are willing to be a part of and what you are not.

Ultimatums in marriage hardly ever work because 99% of BSs are not willling or able to enforce them.

Boundaries do work, however, because they are about controlling YOU - not about controlling the WS.

For example: Your WH can have 100 women on the side if he wants and just knock himself out. You can't stop him. But you CAN tell him that you will not participate in a marriage with any man who wants even ONE woman on the side, and then remove YOURSELF from his life if this is what he insists on doing.

Do you see the difference?

You seem to have virtually no boundaries in your marriage and your WH knows this very well. That's why he walks all over you - because he can.

It is absolutely right, in Plan A, to tell him very firmly that his actions are hurting you terribly and will eventually end your marriage, because YOU have no intention of being part of a threesome.

Do not be afraid to look him right in the eye and calmly state things like this. Anything less is just stuffing your feelings and letting him treat you like a doormat -- and that is NOT part of Plan A!

Please keep posting.
Mulan

Slowly...bit by bit this is starting to sink in. As I have admitted being an Enabler, I have also been providing him "fuel" to keep his adulterous behavior in full throttle. I thought I was initiating Plan A, and I am for the most part, but I have to:

1) Stop with the confessions. He now knows that I take ownership in the breakdown in our marriage. He also knows that I am willing to put 110% into rebuilding our marriage as I think it is fixible, and that our love is still the basis of a strong foundation.

2) If, and when, we have the "talk" that he promised last night, I will calmly say to him that I cannot live in a marriage with three people, and if he has decided to go that path I will need to remove myself from the triangle.

3) I think that I am going to cease the counseling sessions. First and foremost, I'm now beginning to understand that the counseling should be left to the rebuild process. We're not even in the gate, let alone the same race track. Until he makes his decision to end the affair, the counseling will be fruitless. Just babbling and finger pointing and a lot of tears. This I know understand. But, I don't want him to get the wrong impression -- meaning, if I say to him "I don't think it's worth it to go back to counseling". Instead, when we have our "talk", I am going to ask him how he thought the counseling session went. I can almost bet that he will say it either a) did nothing for him/us, or b) undecided (sitting on the fence). I will then state "maybe we should put off the counseling for now". Period. This way, I believe, we have mutually decided not to go instead of me making the decision for us.

Good or bad move?

It is my belief that WH and OW is having unprotected sex because my WH had a vasectomy a few years ago.

Lastly, does anyone have any opinion about my earlier post and sending my WH emails? Again, pre-affair we would send emails 2-3 times a day to each other, and in love-letter format. Now I don't get any from him. Should I still continue, even if it is a short missive (just thinking about you), or is that only a thorn in his side and he really would rather pay attention to the emails/phone calls he gets from the OW?

The carrot...yes, I think I've got that part. The stick still is a little fuzzy because:

>He has already stated that the marriage is not fixable (which, I hope, is only a knee-jerk comment).

>He has already proceeded with securing an apartment in an attempt to seperate himself from me (most likely to carry out the affair without restrictions)

>He has admitted the affair, and it is obvious he is not willing to end it.

With those 3 points in hand, what difference will it make to say to WH that I won't be part of a threesome? He's already removed that option. Oh wait...are you saying it's just my admission on my part? Meaning, even though he's going to elimante the threesome by moving out, I am also stating to him that it's not acceptable? Just for the record?

Finally, my admission that I am still sexually active with him shows that he's not even faithful to the OW. I'm SURE he doesn't tell that he's sleeping with me. I'm SURE he didn't tell her we went to counseling. I'm even almost positive that he's telling her that he's sleeping in the guest bedroom. Deceipt/Lies all around.

***>He has already stated that the marriage is not fixable (which, I hope, is only a knee-jerk comment).***

Many, many WS say this. Why? Because it justifies their having an affair (the marriage was over anyway).

***>He has already proceeded with securing an apartment in an attempt to seperate himself from me (most likely to carry out the affair without restrictions)***

Well, yes, to carry out the affair without restrictions - and to keep both women stringing along.

***>He has admitted the affair, and it is obvious he is not willing to end it.***

Why should he end it? He's having great sex with TWO women. What man would want to end that?

***With those 3 points in hand, what difference will it make to say to WH that I won't be part of a threesome? He's already removed that option.***

What do you mean, HE has "removed that option?"

No, no, no. YOU are the one who will "remove that option" FOR HIM by removing YOURSELF from the threesome.

You can't remove WH from it.

You can't remove OW from it.

But you can sure as h*ll remove YOURSELF from it, now can't you!

It's not his choice to make! It's Your Choice to Make! Never forget that! You have much more power here than you realize.

***Oh wait...are you saying it's just my admission on my part?***

It's not "just an admission." It is YOU setting a Boundary and that is extremely important.

***Meaning, even though he's going to elimante the threesome by moving out,***

He has not eliminated the threesome in any way by moving out -- not if he knows you are still there waiting for him and most certainly not if you are still having sex with him. All he's done is make it easier to string along two women.

***I am also stating to him that it's not acceptable? Just for the record?***

No, it is not "just for the record". Again -- it is YOU setting a Boundary and stating that no matter what WH and OW choose to do, YOU will not participate in a threesome.

***Finally, my admission that I am still sexually active with him shows that he's not even faithful to the OW. I'm SURE he doesn't tell that he's sleeping with me. I'm SURE he didn't tell her we went to counseling. I'm even almost positive that he's telling her that he's sleeping in the guest bedroom. Deceipt/Lies all around.***

Of course. So: If I were you, I would get tested for STDs immediately if not sooner. WS are notorious for having unprotected sex.

And to answer your question about email: Sure, as long as you are in Plan A (and not Plan B), feel free to send a few short and sweet emails or IMs or voice mails. Tell WH how much you miss him and how great it was in bed with him last night. You never know who may be listening in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

I agree with everything Mulan said.

I imagine it's confusing for you > how do I set my boundary for not participating in a three way relationship when I have to do Plan A at the same time?

End the sex. This is the easy part.

Attempt to fill all other ENs up to the point of being an enabler. (I know it must sound like we're talking out of both sides of our mouths.)

When he's around, be cheerful, loving, optomistic. No LBs. DO send short, loving e-mails. Be the opposite of what he might think you would be given the circumstances. No begging or whining. What man do you know who would be attracted to THAT?

You are right to characterize his actions as "cheating" on the OW. Any way to get this info to OW would be a good thing to do, but don't act without running this by us.

Please remind me what contact you have had with OW.

WAT

I have no contact with OW. I don't know her. I have had distant contact with the OWs spouse. He called me one day looking for WS. I was suspicious because the caller ID showed a pay phone. He made up a fictitious name. Didn't know at the time that he was the spouse, but I put two and two together once the affair was discovered.
Then the spouse emailed me one day, and how he got my email address is a complete mystery (must have paid some on-line email finder service), and gave me generic tid-bits like "tying to get ahold of (WS), he's not answering his cell phone, guess another late night for him at the office, eh"? Very mysterious, indeed. But in fact, WS was out of town in Texas for a meeting with the top brass at his company (confirmed this through airline tickets, caller ID from the hotel, etc.) So, the OWs spouse was trying to plant the seed, but since he was so indirect, I just didn't get it. I was suspcious, but I just didn't get it.

OWs spouse also followed me to church one day. I knew it was him because he passed my car as I pulled out of my driveway, turned around hastily and was on my tail the entire half hour. Went by my church's parking lot, and on a busy highway, backed in and out of a resident driveway to go back the other way. WS confirmed that it was OWs truck by description.

I think the OWs spouse is probably causing enough grief with them. From what WS has told me (and believe me, our conversations have been brief about OW because I just didn't want to talk much about her), that OWs spouse was physically abusive. This was verified when he confronted my WH at the entrance to our driveway, and supposedly reached into WHs window of his car and grabbed his collar and threatened harm if he continued to see OW. (with me so far?)

WH told me about this incident, keeping in mind that I was told that the affair had ended. WH also filed assult charges. So...I sleuth and find the court papers and found the OWs name (first and last). Piece his last name to the OWs first name on WHs cell phone and I have an identity. Out of curiosity, I drove by OWs home, although I have been told she left her spouse. It was a chit hole. I'm not kidding. It looked like it should have been perched on the edge of a swamp. Weeds 2 feet tall in the front "flower beds". Two cars on blocks in the back yard, and an old fishing boat on its side. The house was in total disrepair: paint peeling, shingles missing, front screen door literally hanging askew off the front door.

A house is somewhat a reflection of your personality, and I can tell you she is a bottom feeder. We have a nice 3500 sq foot home, two cars (less than 2 years old each), large screen TV...comfortable ammenities. She came from nothing. What do you want to bet that he's feeding all her "wants"? BTW...my former statement about our material possessions was not a means to brag, only to show the difference in lifestyles of the two affairees. This OW is a spitting image of his first affair. She also lived in a dump in the projects. I have summized that he feeds on feeders. The need to feel wanted, to feel needed.

I believe he put gas in her car on OUR debit card. He usually refills his car once a week. Just recently, he put gas in his car, then 1 day later there was another gas charge. I knew he was at work that day, so there were no long distant trips. Hence my suspicion is probably correct...and this angers me. Sharing my husband is one thing, but taking food out of our babies' mouths to support your affair hits home hard too.

Conflicting advice here.

Mulan: have sex

WAT: withhold

I understand I need to protect myself from diseases, but isn't having sex with him rewarding him? I would suspect that withholding will make him run to the OW quicker, but submission only empowers WH. correct?

Also, any comments about my thoughts on my plan to cease the counseling sessions (above post)?