last night one of a member of my staff had dinner and hung out at my place until aroung midnight. He is in a similar place, he is also trying to get his wife back. My husband texted me to see what I was doing (I cannot know any of his business, I only know he talks w/ EA up to 10 x's a day, "just friends" though). I have nothing to hide, he knows I am trying w/ everything to work on our marriage. He was very upset there was another man in our home, and made assumptions that were crazy.

I can see in how he feels this way, even though he seems to live by a double standard. 10 yrs ago, my husband was morbidly obese, I had know idea he was depressed. I thought he was just mean, he never went to work on time, shower often etc. I slept on the couch for 3 years... I was moving on w/ someone else. Wrong!! I have learned, I learned my husband did love me, He was all I ever really wanted! 2005...After 10 months of fighting for him to get rid of his sneaky little EA. (he says he was only fond of her for about a month...crap) I gave him an ultimatam, He still would not give her up, I met someone to fill the huge void he left. My H decided he loved me after all... Ended my A, H said he would get rid of Becky and the horses in a heartbeat. He litterly said that. Well he didn't, I continued to fight for her to be gone, and whala He's gone.

He said I never loved him like he should have been loved, and that he did settle for me. I asked him what he would do if I gained 200#'s did not go to work or shower, brush my teeth, take care of our home, children, and he slept of the couch for 3yrs. He said he did not know. He feels if he were not fat he could have had someone who loved him better.

Could someone please give me insight. He thinks because he has supposedly not slept w/ her it was not an A. He does not believe EA's exist. There is no justification, but my A were very short lived and his has been going on for over a yr.

Why does he care what I am doing if I cannot know what he is??

Thank you,

Julie

J,

You and I have something in common here, I know where you are at...

My W was calling OM up to 11 times a day even a year ago. I wish I knew about MB then... now I know why I could not emotionally connect with her. It was/is "nothing" in her eyes, but it was still damaging to our relationship. OM even asked me to ask her to stop calling so often, as it was making HIM uncomfortable As I posted to you b4:



And THIS is the problem with EA's. They are subtle. They are ambiguous. It is sometimes hard for WS to see that they are wrong at all. THIS is why they are SO DAMAGING!!! It is very hard to get WS to stop. VERY. And b/c they don't stop, the damage continues...and the rationalizations, and the lies. The lies can escalate due to the very fact that you disapprove. All of this can make an EA WORSE than a PA. They can be "explained away". That's what's happening to me. Lies have NO place in a marriage. So you see, it does not matter if love is involved in the EA or not!! Damage still occurs, and you are left in a lonely situation...also not acceptable in a marriage...

I wish I knew HOW to convince my W of the damage it causes, it seems that this is were you are at. I would like to convince her by asking her to read Gary Nuemann, or Shirley Glass books, there's lots of good info of the net, just "google" emotional affair.

Problem is, and you might guess, I'm not sure how much good this will do, they are already in denial, and they will likely take this as an insult, as if we are "schooling" them.

from my thread...just to clarify what an EA means to me...



I'm not sure really if sexual tension is a requirement. Is this present in your H's EA? Do they talk about sexual things, have they shared fantasies/histories? This is what I've experienced...HUGE RED FLAG!!

I'm strongly considering exposure, what if you re-exposed with a carefully thought out letter?

Please take my advice with a grain of salt here, I'm still a newbie, I sure have had to learn quick with my sitch...

I see you have admitted to an affair...this changes the dynamic. Your H might feel jutisfied in what he is doing, and might feel that he has even taken the "high road" b/c he is NOT romantically/sexually involved. I don't know the extent of your A, I'm not judging here...but this certainly makes your fight tougher. Kudos to you for ending your A, I can see this adds to your resentment. Remember this resentment is YOURS, own it, and don't expect to be able to use your A sacrifice to justify why he should stop...I doubt he'll get it. He's likely to see it as a selfish demand if you're putting this spin on it...just a thought.

DON'T fuel the fire!! I've made these mistakes many times. If you are having a male friend over for dinner, OK, but you need to show an example of the behavior you expect. Let him know in advance, and invite H to come. I know you are angry with H right now, but you need to make him and his feelings the HIGHEST priority. You DON'T want to intentionally make him jealous, he WILL resent it and WILL use it to justify his EA! I assure you. If he is jealous about something that is NOT your fault (like when that man hit on you at your child's game), that's different, he can't blame you. I'm not saying that you can't have friends, that ridiculous, but show your H how it's different, show that he is welcome to share with your friendships, and that H's friendship with you comes FIRST!

So mind your love busters, don't engage in annoying behaviors, and know that what is a "love buster" depends on HIS point of view. You need to show examples of honesty and transparancy. Be careful with DJ's and SD's. Really important. Read some of LovingAnyways posts for absolute authority on how we accidently do these!

I think you need to let others put on the pressure, and be the lighthouse, the good gal, for him to come back to. Review your Plan A! I think I need to also...I learn as i write!! HA!

CJ

Hi CJ,

My husband called me to the carpet on the man I had over for dinner. I told him we are just friends, we actualy spent the evening discussing MB's. Friend is also trying to save his marriage.

H did not believe it was platonic... ofcourse he wouldn't, why would he?

I handled this the way my H and his EA should have handled things to prove to me it was platonic w/ them. I told Pete, H was uncomfortable w/ him spending the evening at my home. I told my H exatcly what Pete and I were doing. Nothing to hide, why would I lie? Pete took the initiative and phoned H to say there is ABSOLUTYLY nothing between your wife and I! Pete told H he completly understands where H is coming from and feels it would be best if our friendship dissolved to be cordial, nothing more. I agreed!

H talked w/ me a little later and seems to be looking forward to the "Best night of our lives". Ofcourse w/ no expectations.

I wrote EA a letter, detailing only a fraction of the inappropriate behaivor she and my H displayed. Funny... Unlike Pete she never responded... no apologie, nothing.

I hope H steps back and thinks about this...

I am going to post what I think the epitomes of guilt are, from my own A, and all the others cheaters just like me... I think this would apply to your wife and so many others - Cj.

Fondly,

Julie

Julie,

Sounds like you handled this quite well...good to hear. Good job! Your H's paranoia could just be fog talk, of course, he is very familiar with how friendships develop.

I do hope that you are being careful about having 3 way convos happening, things can get messed up and confused. This may be just my own shell-shock talking...

Either way, glad to hear you were transparent about this, and Pete calling him hopefully helped...

I think that what really helped was that you were willing to redefine your friendship w/Pete in order to help the marriage. Your H sees that, great move. Otherwise, had the phone call from Pete been to prove that you two have a RIGHT to be friends, and won't stop, and don't care what H thinks, this would have been bad...

Really great that Pete is on board with MB's. Bet this made handling all of this very easy...

Very different from my sitch.

Looking forward to your "guilt" post, I could use the education...

CJ

We had a funny conversation yesterday... H was sending me text messages while I was driving. H actualy answered the phone when I called... wow!

He mentioned that we have completely reversed roles. In Nov. I wanted a separation, I began to move on w/ my life as he was unwilling to give up his EA. I thought a 30 separation would be appropriate for us to see our lives w/out each other. H left for only one night and kept counting the 30 days even though he was still here. He never left and w/ his charm he rekindled my love for him. It was better than ever. At this point I do believe he did not have overly fond feelings for his EA (still talking w/ her over an hour each day) but I could not except this friendship. Even though I knew he loved me, it caused unbearable pain when ever he talked w/ that crab catcher.

He knows I love him and will do anything in my power to reconsile. He said he is worried I will not be able to do "the best night of our lives" w/out breaking my heart terribly. Hi is worried as he wants to be friends w/ me. I told him friendship is a long, long way. I will not be his friend, I will be his wife or nothing. I told him when I reach my breaking point, I will 100% extract myself from him. He thought this was rather harsh.

H also said I never loved him as he feels he should have been loved. Maybe that is true... My thought used to be, "if you don't like how I am - too bad". I am changing in this area, as I beleive I should have loved him better, and told him this.

H also said he settled for me because he was morbidly obeese and he could have found someone to love him the way he should have been if he were skinny. That one kind of hurt as we have been together 13yrs.

I am thinking of going to his new place to take advantage of him. He would have liked that if we were still together.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

Julie

H

Julie, I read your story and think you would probably be best served by implementing Plan A. This affair is getting deeper and deeper every day, so every day that you put off exposure only makes it all the harder to bust up this affair. I don't believe it is just an "EA," but your H can't seriously deny it is an EA. Do men leave their wives over "friendships?" Of course not. What man leaves his family over his "friendship with some guy named "Joe" at work? What man talks on the cell phone 10X a day with a guy at work? uh uh... I aint' buying that.

Exposure will ruin their affair because affairs thrive on secrecy. Her bf is probably very upset about all this and would help you in busting it up. He should be your first exposure target, after that, I would expose to your DD, his parents, your parents and close friends. All on the same day to get the maximum impact.

Time to get to work, Julie, time is a wasting!

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Do you have Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley? Another good book would be His Needs, Her Needs. You can buy them on this website fairly cheap.

I have been faithfully doing plan A w/out knowing it for awhile now. I have exposed him to everyone who would listen. His crab catcher, I am sure thinks this is funny rather than realizing this is a pattern for her. This is not the first marriage she has destroyed. Our life long friends are quite disappointed. H does not care as he has replaced all of our friends w/ new ones. H mother would side w/ husband no matter what. His new friends do not care about family and marriage. They are all divorced and make it look easy. They do not give a crap for their children either. H does not beleive there is such a thing as an EA. He only beleives in PA'S.

I have been meeting all of his Emotional Needs and continue to show changes in myself in anyway possible. H is living w/out one single responsibility. He is living for free in his boss's $2000000.00 home. The only thing he has to pay for are his truck and board of his horses. When I plan B him he will have to find his own insurance as well as cell phone. He says he is happy... Well I guess I would be too, if I could live like a teenager again.

I live my life the way he would want me too. For him. The only problem of course being... he is not here to do these things for. I am bored to frigan death, not to mention lonely, for him.

This site keeps me inspired to continue to try. W/out all of you and your stories I would have surely caved in. Thank you.

Now if someone would show me the next step, I will gladly take it.

Julie

yesterday, we had lunch together... I asked. He was worried I would start making demands and asking him to lunch everyday. I am tired of feeling degraded everytime I am around him. Maybe he is just being painfuly honest about his intentions, to be my friend. I told him it is impossible to be friends w/ someone you are in love w/. Count me out of the friendship.

My staff cleans the house he is staying in. The woman who owns the house is anal about cleaning, I once watched her dust the wheels off a pair of rollerblades. On anycount In reality if it was anyone elses house, I may have had doubts when my staff found a "condom wrapper" under the bed. He said it wasn't his, he would never take a woman back to his boss's house. He ended up making me feel like crap when I confronted him. I go back and forth believing him. He told me, if he meets someone, he meets someone. I am the only one he has ever slept w/, (have no proof he slept w/ EA) as he has always been obeese. He said in a nutshell he would like to experiement.

He thinks I am going to tag along w/ him (separate trucks) sat w/ all his friends except the crap catcher, to a horse event. Then H our daughter and I will go to a nearby town to see a horse I would like to buy our daughter.

Should I go???

I don't want to plan B, but my head is spinning. Everytime I see him I cry after. I can't keep living like this. The pain is very real and I don't know what to do. Each day he is gone and does not try kicks another brick out of the wall. I am so tired of the confusion.

any thoughts???


Julie

Hi J,

Arrghh...I had a really good post going, and lost it... I'll try again!

Yes, this is hard. Plan A is NOT for the meek. Do you want this marriage? Do you believe in marriage? If yes, then, focus, help yourself out here, Plan A is where you need to be, anything else will make you unhappy!

Is he being honest about his feelings of your "demands"? Good chance. So what? So are you! Your feelings are showing you what the truth is for you! His truth is not your truth right now, and that's OK! Really. Learn to develop your happiness from within, your expectations of him are hurting you! Stop hurting yourself! You CAN do this! Because you are doing what you believe in, that marriage is a value that you cherish, and you are a person that stands for her principles, and your principles, your truth, do not depend on other people's actions. Embrace your emotions, they give you needed INFORMATION. They tell you what you need to do, what you are fighting for, they describ your principles and truth. Very useful info. You need to focus on you, he will say and do things that hurt, that you have NO control over. change your self-talk, concentrate on your successes, when you ask him to lunch, you've succeeded, what a nice W you are! When he ANGRILY says,"I don't care!" It's because he NEEDS to believe it, he knows he's hurting you, and the only way he feels better is to justify what he's doing. That means he DOES care, doesn't he? WOW! Gives you something to build on, hey? Read his emotions behind the words, he's disappointed with himself, and impressed with you. Strengthen yourself, learn to meet his needs, give without expectations, he will notice, but he CAN'T acknowledge it right now, that ruins his self-talk, you see? Hit him over the head with kindness, you'll feel good about doing the right things, for you are the strong one! Don't focus on every result, you're just disappointing yourself. Love yourself for your struggle, you are doing what you value. Work for your marriage with ACTIONS, things that you do for you! Of course he made you feel like crap when confronted, that's what his truth needs right now, to feel OK about things, y'know? Not your bag of weenies. His. You are expressing your boundaries, not forcing them. Use lots of "I feel" and "I believe" statements to describe how you feel. Different than arguing, see? He can't tell you how you feel, can he? Give him time to see the changes, time to see how you are meeting his needs, that you love and care for him. Because you value him, because you value yourself, and your daughter.

THIS IS PLAN A. And you can't do it if you leave. You get only one chance at it.

So what if he worries that you will demand lunch with him? You are in Plan A. You don't make selfish demands. Only thoughtful requests. He can say no. And you won't expect. different see? See the success in asking, that you are thoughtful, he will get it...even if it bothers him. Let him worry about this is, not your job. Don't worry and what he worries about. Bad cycle. And OUTSIDE of you. You can't control this. So don't. Take the lead for this marriage, just DO what is your truth. Ask him out. How nice of you! And you've already won. You are not responsible for his failures to be with you.

I'm with MelodyLane on this, Plan A is where you need to be. Plan B does not work without a strong Plan A. Plan B without Plan A, is called leaving... ML is pretty wise, posted once or twice...



does this mean she is going?

Should you go? Only you can know. Will going mean that you condone his friendship with EA? Is this outside your boundaries? Would this mean being untrue to yourself? Then don't. Would going give you a chance to meet needs and be together? Where is OW when you go? Some type of combo, she's around,but not closely, but YOU are w/H? Can you do this? Then go. Will she be too close, you seem to want EA to end...then communicate this with "I feel" statements (see Lovinganyaway's posts). Could she not go, so that you can be w/DD? Thoughtful requests.

You DON'T support this friendship, be consistent. But you DO support your marriage, be consistent. Which belief will be supported MORE by going?



Sounds a bit like my sitch. So what are your principles? (Lovinganyaway calls this a "code") What is your code? Can you handle "experimentation" in your marriage? I suspect not. Communicate, "I feel...", that you will not tolerate this in your life forever, that you cherish your marriage too much to include experimenting, the potential it has for ruining any chance the marriage has, and the damage and confusion that it might cause your DD. The stakes are to high (for your code) for the people involved...



Then don't. Plan B is not an escape. It is a technique. Yes it is protection for you when you have done a successful Plan A. Yes I'm a newbie, but from what I've read, it is a shield for your feelings for him, and a tool to help him miss you. Your emotions are a by-product of what is happening, and they hurt, no doubt. I'm so sorry for you. Plan A and Plan B are designed to save your marriage. But Plan A needs to sink in before you can Plan B. Do you think it has? I'm sure you know, but one night of SF is not a successful Plan A either. I'm so sorry to judge you here. Plan A needs TIME and focus. It seems you have already put in a lot of time. Have you applied MB principles this entire time? Only you can know truely where things are at. What action should you take right now to help save your marriage? Or do you need to save you? No judgement here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Only you know...

Oh I hope ML wasn't right about PA! Of course now you are suspicious, and this would be further violation. Ouch! But seriously, how much does it matter? I know, it hurts, and it's WRONG!!! You also aren't certain. Still want your marriage? Stay focused on Plan A. There are many different affairs, one-night-stands (no emotions), EA's (some with love, some without), for example. I'd rather deal with a ONS, rather than the EA's we are dealing with here, y'know? I think what really damages are the lies and the emotional attachment, SF or not. (Well OK serial, continual, sex addict behavior with no emotional content wouldn't work...) What is truely damaging about the affair? I feel it's because it robs you of needs, O&H, SF, affection. Feel free to snoop to find out the truth, but focus on saving that marriage first...Plan A!

"Everytime I see him I cry after."

Yes, REAL familiar with this, what are these emotions telling you? What useful information?

"I can't keep living like this."

No. You can't. Plan A is NOT forever. Good to know. Doing Plan A for too long will violate your code. Good! Whew! 'cuz it is hard! But, ask yourself, have you done a good, textbook Plan A yet? If so, it's Plan B time, if not Plan A time. Good INFORMATION.

Take care...I've got a couple more posts coming, to help you with processing your emotions, sounds like that is the biggest challenge right now...I know it is with me!

respectfully...CJ

I posted this to Jaymom the other day...it was my take on what Lovinganyaway was trying to tell me...

Really smart woman! She has really helped me learn what to worry about, how to process emotion, to be careful of "results oriented" thinking, and to modify our actions to protect ourselves from our expectations...

LA, if you're around, 2x4 me if i got this wrong! J, take my advice if it works for you, and throw out the rest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"As LA told me "hug reality hard". This is your sitch, whether you like it or not, your worry (ie. craziness) comes from not being able to control what is going on with your H. This leads to obsession, which leads to emotions, which lead to frustration. And this is you making you hurt! Stop hurting yourself! The A is not your fault, right? Your BF's call was not your fault. Having Jay mixed up in this is not your fault and not Jay's fault. When your emotions are coming at you, ask what they mean, why they are there...they are giving you information, about what you are willing to do, how you want to live, what you need. Pause, breathe, listen to them, and realize that they are reactions to things that are out of your control, or things within your control. Are you angry? Think about why. Because things are happening that are outside your boundaries? Good to know. What things, who is doing them? If not you, then think about who. Your H? OW, OWH? Yourself? Now you have this info. by the time you figure out the cause, you will have processed the emotion. Emotional reaction uses a different part of the brain (forget where I read this recently), admit to yourself the moment you are having an emotional reaction, say,"Hmmm, I'm feeling sad/frustrated/angry right now". yeah, kinda Freudish. This activates your logical brain, and helps override your reactions.

Then analyze the reasons why you feel the way you feel. If you can't control these reasons, allow yourself to ACCEPT it. Accept that these things are NOT your fault. Because why should you be responsible for someone elses actions? If the reasons CAN be controlled by you, if they come from you, then make the changes. See, information. Very useful, been helping me alot. My take on LA's posts. Redirect yourself, put into action what you CAN, don't ruminate on what you CAN'T. CAN is more fun, can allows you to act. It allows you to live. Live. Reality is NOT what we want it to be right now. Just NOW. But it is where we are. It is not forever. Don't fall in love with your future though, be IN the NOW. Find in it what you can, enjoy your H's company, joke with him, play with Jay, make your NOW inviting to yourself. You CAN. Others CAN'T. You CAN'T make your H remorseful. He CAN. Is he living in his NOW? Doesn't matter. You see?! Is something happening on the other side of the world that would make you sick? Probably. Doesn't matter, it CAN'T. Will you spend all your time thinking about how to influence your H, or how to influence your happiness? Ration some time for YOU. You deserve it. Your H has his own truth, and will face more of his truth as time goes on. But what's true for you? Are you happy with yourself? You CAN be, I'll bet you are proud of what you are doing...hmmm, good thought for me too, I'm HAPPY I'm doing what I'm doing. You are doing what makes you happy. Cool. And you'll continue doing things that make you happy. You don't like your sitch. Doesn't mean you aren't being the best YOU that YOU CAN. These actions define our morals, values. Who else can take this away? Who else can take US away? No one. Nope. They CAN'T. They should worry about something else also."

Here's one about processing your emotions...LA, I HOPE you don't mind me plagarizing here...

Keep in mind, it's written with my sitch in mind, but some good things nonetheless...she expresses much better than I can...


"CJ -

What matters is what you believe...since you believe I'm right, then I am.

DJs are exceptionally difficult to root out...I will take it a step further with you in your transposition of unwarranted and accidental. I am going to deeper not to the action, but the belief that you have, which only you can correctly phrase and I can stab at--when I am angry, I must express it or suppress it.

I don't buy into that belief anymore, but I sure did. Owned a major share of stock in it.

Now, imagine this...anger is healthy...very healthy. Suppressing isn't healthy, right? Anger is information for you...someone is either crossing your boundaries or not meeting your expectations. Both are yours. Lots of power there, eh? So, suppressing info doesn't sound smart, either. However, once an emotion comes up, if you consider it, even while listening, discussing, and ask yourself, "Why am I feeling anger?" Then decide between the boundary (and be specific which boundary) or the expectation, which then has to be looked at if it is a reasonable expectation you've made and if it is right to have someone else live up to it...by the time you finish...where's the anger gone?

LOL

Not distraction, dissection. Emotions are information about our beliefs and reality. Once they pass on the information, having it received and understood, why hang out? Heehee.

So...changing your belief that you only have two alternatives to anger...express or suppress, well, you have another option, don't you? Recognize and trace. You can do this with all your emotions. Very nice option. No blaming involved...INFORMATION.

DJs will add to your anger, frustration, pain and feelings of rejections. Expectations of others to do what we want, say or give us stuff is another sore source. We get red alerts when these aren't met...red hot impulses. And we create resentments through our expectations and hold them like embers we don't want to go out. (Oh, but we do, don't we?)

You understand that I do not expect you to stop instantly. You've had a whole lifetime of DJs...it is a process. Awareness is key. When your pain goes up, know this is from your own DJing. Great indicator of imbalance going on. Stay aware and respectful. At first, all this will feel distancing, maybe self-invoked retaliation...it isn't. Your intention is respect, honor and equality, correct? Your intention is balance and acceptance. There's the difference. Later, as your marriage goes into recovery after no contact, this well-practiced and aware CJ will begin to feel moved to tears for the intimacy no DJing allows and invites into your relationship. It is stunning and remains stunning. You become safe for others to love...safe to respect in return, safe to love others respectfully.

There's the gorgeous Harley gift...no Lovebusters will give you more of each one you eliminate...No AOs? You'll begin to be heard and understood. No DJs? You will stop being judged, assummed for or mind-read; and others will no longer feel responsible for your thoughts, feelings and beliefs. No SDs? You will be considered. I think you can see how the benefits swing around...though your intent is to eliminate them for yourself, who you are, not for the results, correct?

When you're having a conversation with your wife, and your pain increases sharply, know this is you doing this to you..." my W will NOT contribute to our convos, I have been trying to ask open-ended questions, to explore her feelings, her REAL feelings, I have been getting very good at this, and I have had some success...so often she doesn't have any answers, b/c she hasn't thought about it, which is valid. She JUST feels, and doesn't seem to know why..."

I was a digger, tracker and examiner of every emotion and reason in my H for all of our marriage. My very digging made me unsafe...he felt that I was digging up to judge. I urge you strongly to stop asking her anything. Listening and repeat. No judgment, disagreement or feedback. Listen and repeat. Respect that she has feelings and doesn't know why. Know that what success you've had may have felt like manipulation to her because you viewed it as your accomplishment instead of her disclosure.

Seperate but equal.

Use your I-simple-statement time to say what you're learning, feeling, thinking, etc. Her time to talk is hers. Pretend you've both been beaten so badly you're in body casts, sitting next to each other in wheel chairs. Communication is all you have, but your lips are bruised and torn. Each word costs you a little, so pick them wisely and know you both feel this way. As you heal yourselves, words may become plentiful, but I would imagine, they will remain carefully chosen after much practice.

I remember the "I don't knows" so well. Accept them, even in light of other evidence. Now...the phone convo's? To whom within your hearing, may I ask?

Incoming 2x4...duck!!!

"I try to rephrase the questions so I can learn, I eventually get,"I don't care, I'm done talking!"

I hear you lying to yourself, covering your motives here. I wouldn't be asking any questions other than "How was your day?" If you choose to ask, you own it, 'k? You want desperately to know and understand her...and want her to, so that you will stop being in pain. It won't get you clarity, insight or answers. They have to come from you--nice try, though. Now..you ask, she answers "I don't know" and then you say, trying to rephrase for your learning...

Liar.

What you do when you rephrase is say, "You're stupid and not getting this...you can't answer I don't know...you're an imbecilic emotional wreckage and you're breaking me in two and I matter so stop it and tell me what I want to hear"

Hey, she could be hearing that. Can you accept she isn't willing to tell you or maybe, herself? Why ask WW when you want the answer from your lovely wife?

OM has abandonment issues that come from his CHILDHOOD. They are his and you know to leave them alone.

Your wife has issues you can't fix, solve or undo. Respect them and leave them alone.

You have issues with intimacy, trust, acceptance, control, security and other stuff. Hey, who doesn't? They are yours...respect them and DON'T leave them alone.

Yeah, I'm pretty much saying "Go to your room and think about it!" LOL (but I'm courteously leaving out the "and that bed ain't gonna make itself" part)

Translation when anyone says, "I don't care" they do. This is one of our inner child wishful statements. I wish I didn't care...you're hurting me, stop it. And the "I'm done talking" could be similar...you don't hear or accept what I say...so I won't tell you anything...I'm sick of failing you.

"I WISH we could work on this together,"

You have an inner child, too...please don't give your permission to dwell in a fantasy (wishfulness) where your needs are met, there is no pain or anger...because then you'd be having an A with your future. That's what WW has done. Stay present. Hug reality hard. Know that you and your wife had a lot of wishfulness in your marriage and accept that this was something you were comfortable with and maybe even prized...calling it something else.

You brain doesn't know the difference between reality and fantasy...a wish and an expectation. Your choice which way to train it...it has stores them the same way, as memories, and hands you them without being asked...gives you devastation for her choice to not be transparent because you wished so hard she would do what you needed her to do...instead. Might have handed you "Ouch!" instead, if you hadn't wished so very hard.

If someone tells you something over and over again...how do you feel? Stupid? Incompetent..or think they think this way? "I let her know this quite often, and I don't think I'm being threatening, but maybe I am..." Can feel a repeated threat for her to fill your expectation of O&H when she can't even do that for herself...if you say what you want over and over again, sure sign you're not getting it or you'd shut up, huh?

You have not felt heard in your marriage. Know she hears you. That's respectful. No repeating. I have a feeling that you don't believe "you're getting through to her" because you aren't getting the RESULTS from her you want.

Manipulative.

Unloving.

Stop it.

Now, I on the otherhand repeat myself to death and want you to say, STOP, I got it from Adrian's thread.. Basta. Enough."

Here's another one from LA, and it deals with the expression of your emotions and communication skills without lovebusting...

I DO hope these help, check out adrianc's thread for more, I needed to read and reread these to really get it, really understand what Plan A requires, and I've got a lot more to learn...

Wow...tons of reading sorry, I'll bet your interested though, knowledge is liberating, and felt you were needing some freedom...but this will keep from packing up, quitting, and leaving for an hour or two at least! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take care of you! CJ





"I am going to center in on your communication skills understanding, though.

You said last night you used "I" statements. Then you exampled one where you said "I" didn't understand why I am being treated like this by someone who shared vows with me."

Which is a sneaky DJ wrapped in an I statement...which decimates your previous and subsequent ones.

And you said "might have DJ'd couple times, but nothing unwarranted."

CJ...darlin'...maybe you don't get the concept here?

DJ--disrespectful judgments...not just in what you say but what you believe...which gives you those words, that permission, to believe and do these...stinks.

Tears up a marriage like a monster truck doing wheelies on new sod. Stop them. They are ALL unwarranted.

Communication has two initial parts...

You make "I feel" and "I believe" statements. "I feel scared of your choices because I don't believe I count in them, nor our family. My expectations are that the person who took vows with me would make me their first priority. I'm working on this."

I'm rephrasing your statement to demonstrate a real "I" statement. You OWN your feelings, thoughts and beliefs. They aren't hers...you are judging her treatment of you instead of owning your own reactions and feelings, which come from YOUR expectations and beliefs.

There is a difference, and this isn't blaming, but hopefully, leading you where you thought you were.

You have a belief that LBs are warranted at times. Maybe even good honesty or communication? Might want to look at that belief. Very common. I know I had it to my core...I could AO or DJ because that was just being honest...when it is really being dishonest with yourself. Key here...what you allow yourself to do to others is what you are also allowing you to do to you. The standards you form and choose your actions from, are what you do NOT allow yourself to do to others or to yourself...and your boundaries are the same things because they are what you don't allow others to do to you. Standards include all the LBs...because all of them have a base in your code.

Say your code is Respect, Consideration, Honesty, Appreciation and Acceptance. You are considerate of others and do not allow others to be inconsiderate of you...now, you can only control yourself, so your boundaries come into play.

See where unfaithfulness cris-crosses many boundaries at a time?

Which leads me to balance. To me, you feel off balance...attempting to plan, keep hope, know reality, have clarity--while feeling confused, scared, angry, erased and undone. That's why it's a hero's journey...what you're attempting sounds impossible given the way you feel, eh?

So, develop your code...put in what you believe is most important and then be vigilant in yourself...not allowing voices in your head to tell you you're weak, lousy, uncaring, or whatever yours say to you...because that is defining you, a DJ, and you don't allow that. There's no use for it. You're an adult, in control of your choices, actions, beliefs, feelings and thoughts. When you don't allow it to yourself, you'll stop allowing yourself to do it to others.

I statements are you fulfilling your standard of Openness and Honesty. I work them in as often as I can and funny, the more I got to do this, the less I needed to talk, over time. LOL. That's huge. I'm diarrhea mouth (yuck) because that's what my family called me. I grew up steeped in DJs.

Anyway..."I am realizing how much I feel responsible for your feelings and thoughts, like I don't know where I end and you begin. How was your day?"

"Do we have any peanut butter left?" :::looking in pantry::: "I am learning what real respect is for the first time in my life. I'm a little stunned. Respect being seperate but equal is so different from the way I've viewed it before."

End of voluntary, spontaneous, non-R talk I statements. They are so cool. Have fun with them. Do not repeat. You are not doing them for her, but to hold to your code. In order to have the boundary of O&H, you must maintain the standard to yourself and others. See the balance here?

Other important part of communication...Listen and Repeat.

Are you doing this? This goes to respect, appreciation and acceptance. Her truths are hers...you don't cause, control or cure her of them. Get seperate and equal. She's as beautifully made, loved as much and is of equal value and worth as you are. Respect that she owns her own thoughts, feelings and belief...and that's all she can control as well.

When she has contact, like last Saturday, you emphasize her choice. "I see you chose to have contact instead of walking away."

"I hear you feel uncomfortable and angry that I share my thoughts and feelings with my mother. I would appreciate understanding why you feel that way."

"Because you are ganging up on me and getting others to hate me."

"I hear you feel I am against you, recruiting others against their will or choice, to hate you, is that correct?"

See, you're not arguing...you don't have to say, "That's not true!" because that is a DJ...you are listening and repeating and that is it. Marriage isn't an argument you can win.

Basic issue #2 (and then I'll let go of your collar, 'k?)...problem-solver...public enemy #1. You are proud to know you're a problem-solver...a fixer...I find fixers abusive...I was one. My only source of pride was I would be a diligent, creative, dedicated fixer. I ran over the disrespectful belief I had...which was others needed to be fixed. And that I was the one to do it.

People are capable...in yourself, you maintain respect by not problem-solving...what may look like a problem might just be a different belief from yours...right now. To convince is to disrespect. Our jobs as human problem-solvers are to sight and solve our own. Many don't need solving but understanding. Learn the difference. The more you understand why you want what you want, expect what you expect and view the world...the more you will hear and understand others. The reverse is true, CJ...

Balance.

Focus on you. Plan A is where you're out, and that's a key part."

Thank you CJ!
You just inspired me too keep going.
I am going to meet him this pm after a basketball game I am taking my daughter to. We are all going to spent the night in rochester and head to fillmore to see the horse in the morning. We will all be going in my truck. This works out very nice as I do not have to see his friends and feel uncomfortable. I am sure this will be a trip to remember. I am expecting nothing. If you hope for nothing then your feelings cannot get hurt, right?

We will be together for quite awhile, I am nervous as ******!!

Wish me luck!

Julie

What a wkend! Picked H up in Rochester, I was extemely kind, well mannered and simly appeared as I was having a good time w/ or w/out H. Dinner was a bit strange as I watched H w/ horrible table manners. This is how his friends act. It surprised the crap out of me.

Found a hotel, H got 2 rooms. I stayed w/ our daughter and H was next door. He called to see if I wanted to watch a movie and I went over, however we DID not watch a movie. LB? No expectations? Of course I have expectations.

Had a pretty good time and it seemed to me that he wanted to spend time w/ me. He went out of his way to spend more time w/ me. Later after we got home, he called to ask me to visit for a repeat of the night prior. I did. LB? Should I continue on this path?

His EA is out of state, I hope her absense is not why he spent all of this time w/ me this wkend. He still seems to think that I have slept w/ Pete??? I told him I did not. He does not believe me, He thinks I have integrity issues and would lie. I attempted to give him small examples of his and he quickly dismissed them. H said "get off my emotional affair!". I told him that I have every reason to believe the condom wrapper found in his room was his, and I am choosing to believe him. He truely beleives there is no such thing as an EA and if there were it should not be an issue as the EA was supposedly not physical. I think he would take it all to his grave if it were. It took him over 10 months to tell me he asked her if there could be anything more.

In my efforts to reconsile my marriage I have accepted any and all responsibility for my actions in the demise of our marriage. I have not focused on his. He is in such denial, he truely beleives he is nothing but a mere victim.

How and when do I begin to make him realize he did have at the very least a EA???

Julie

Hi J,



I wish I knew the answer to this question!! If I knew this, I would be having a much better time with my own sitch!

This is why I identify with you so much! I think the only person who can truly help him realize it is HIM! It makes you feel SO helpless...

Sounds like the weekend went GREAT! You got an opportunity to meet his needs. For Plan A, this is right where you need to be! Great job!



I don't know what this means... LB? Do you mean 'love buster'? What was the "repeat"? of what? You don't have to say....

What I get from this is that he wanted to be with you, more GREAT opportunities to meet his needs! I WOULD stay on this path as long and as much as possible, the MORE contact you have with him, the more influence your Plan A can have! So happy for you!



Glad to hear she's gone for now... in my experience, unfortunately, when the A partner is out of contact, even for a few days, YES things get much less foggy fairly quickly. A buddy of mine went through a similar sitch where his WW's A partner went to Greece, and when he was gone, she moved back into her H's home. Unfortunately, when OM came back, she was gone again...

Not saying this to discourage you, just confirming that when OP is around, things often get 'muddy'. That's why NC is so important. Best I can say (to you AND to me) is when they are gone, you have the BEST chance at quality contact with your spouse...jump on every opportunity to meet needs when OP is gone, your H will be more receptive to how you are meeting needs! It's like there is a "friendly teller" working at their "love bank".

Try not to worry "why" he wants to be with you, just focus on making it wonderful. Don't ruminate on the negative. (Yeah, I should listen to myself...I know how hard this is! HA!)

Hmmm...he thinks you slept with Pete, eh? He must have some special "insight" into how these "wants" develop! Little paranoia going on?!

His problem. In his circle of control ONLY! Yes, I can see how he will parallel this to his EA to make it look good. The difference, you were willing to change your relationship with Pete to accomodate you H, Pete handled the situation respectfully and with care, and so did YOU. Great example-leading by you!

Good information! Now don't worry about it!



Yep. That's the deal. Textbook. Keep rockin' your doing great!

Respectfully,

CJ

How are things going w/ you CJ?

Hi J,

Oh things r going...I guess, same place as you, I just CAN'T seem to convince my W that her relationship with OM is bad in ANY way. Dunno if you've read up on my sitch...lots of weirdness, sex and drugs and not much rock 'n roll, y'know?

She doesn't believe that this is an EA. OM wholeheartedly agrees that this is an EA! So what gives!? I don't care if W loves him or not, what bothers me is that they continue to talk about our marriage...and it never helps my relationship with my W. It just brings them closer together, and us further apart.

I'm just losing my mind...

Fri night they saw each other AGAIN!! In secret. Got her to admit it. I was pretty sure anyway. They went to McDonald's with DD2. Just drives me nuts. And I go on, living with this, but trying to get though to my W.

I've got just a few more things to say to W, then it's time for the "stick" of Plan A.

There you have it, I need to update my own thread...then you can check it out there...sorry to threadjack here...

Just thought you could relate to this, y'know? Hopefully it's helpful to know someone else is dealing with similar things....

Take care! Thanks for your concern...

CJ

H and I seem to be getting along... ofcoarse we do, I will not argue, I only agree. right or wrong I agree. I do this out of trying to meet his emotional needs, showing that I have changed in positive ways, and also because he is in such denial about himself. I see no point at this time to bring up anything negative, no matter how much I want to.

I told him I cannot be casual friends w/ him. Under the circumstances I am not at all into being his friend. He thinks we should. How do I know if he is working on us, or working on a friendship w/ me?

As much as I would like to, I do not initiate talk about "us". He does not either. Should I ask him any questions to see if his feelings have changed for me??

I am running out of patience!

Thank you in advance for any great words of wisdom.

Julie