I hope you guys can help guide me a little here...

I've been seeing this girl... I've described her before in my other post. Great girl, and things had been doing well.... We had been doing things together for about 5 weeks or so.

I cooked dinner for her last night, and then we went out to meet some of her friends. We had, by all impressions, a good time. We got back to my place...

And we talked for a little... And then "the conversation" started....

She said something along the lines of "Look, I need to talk to you about something..."

In the history of mankind...nothing good has ever followed that statement.

Anyway, the jist of the conversation was this. She has been amazed at the way that I've treated her. She said she's never been treated this well, and most guys she dates treat her like crap. That I made her feel so special, that she didn't feel she even deserved that...

....buuuuuuuuuut........

There's no spark. She said she could not figure out why, either. She said she finds me attractive, that I'm probably the smartest guy she's ever known, I'm funny... but for whatever reason... There's no spark.

And my side of the conversation was actually very similar. At first, I wasn't sure about her.... She's probably the most beautiful girl I've ever dated, she's smart, successful...

She asked what I would do.... I told her that if it were up to me, we would continue to see each other, and just see where it went... I wasn't asking for her hand in marriage quite yet, but I was enjoying getting to know her, and spending time with her. Neither of us has been in a serious relationship in sometime, and I know at least for me... what threw me off was that she was so drastically different than anyone I had ever dated.

I asked what she would do. She said essentially the same thing, but was concerned about hurting me, if "the spark" never came...

I don't think we ever came to any kind of concrete decision.

She is an awesome girl. And I would still like to do things with her.

But am I beating a dead horse here?

I'm really confused on this, because I do believe her, when she tells me what she felt. That she's just unsure.

Any advice?

This is eerie, considering what I warned you about in your last thread. Remember what I said?:


Maybe I should consider becoming a mind-reader...


Yes, you would be. I don't see the point of continuing, you'll only get hurt.

Sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

opposite view. . . there's no agreement for exclusivity, so ask her out if you think she will enjoy it, and then ask others out if you find a new possibility. . .

the key here is to practice dating with her so that you get comfortable with dating, WITH NO EXPECTATIONS. . . the expectations are where you get hurt. .. because you are having possibility of marriage in your head, but the future is uncertain. . .

good luck and keep looking. ..

do you think there was an instant spark between Harry and Sally?

wiftty

Do you feel attracted to her? Is there absolutely no spark for you?

I'm kinda sitting on the fence on this one. While I don't think "chemistry" needs to be instant, after five weeks I'd certainly like to feel some draw other than mutual interest.

Do you flirt with her? Does she flirt with you? What does it feel like if you reach over in conversation & touch her arm?

To address:

AGG-Initially, I felt that this was the end of the line for us. Her main point was that she didn't want me to get hurt if the spark never came. She still wants to see me, to "hang out" but not in a relationship. My only concern is that she will never be open to a "spark" from here forward. That she's decided she doesn't "like me like that" and she never will... I don't know if that's true or not...

WIFTTY-I kind of feel in a similar fashion to what you're saying... But we shifted our dynamics a little bit last night. We both put a LOT of information on the table... I thought it was great that we were able to discuss our feelings openly and honestly. But I think that there will be an adjustment period for us, with knowing what we know... We had coffee this evening, and it was a little awkward. I think we'll be able to get past that, once she sees that I'm comfortable with all this stuff. We only talked briefly about last night... And we did both feel that we still want to "hang out" and see where it goes. I think I'll actually be the first to break the non-exclusivity barrier. My "first love" from HS called me Friday afternoon, and wants to catch up with me some time next week. She's D'd (and has been for a few years, after a scary, abusive M from what the rumor mill told me years back...) with an 8 yo son... The last time I had seen her, she was "gay". That will be interesting, I'm sure... Anyway, I'm curious to see how S (the girl in question) responds to our new dynamics...

nams-Attraction. Here's the weird thing. She is a very beautiful girl, probably the prettiest girl I've ever dated... (Yes, I told her this...) We flirt some, not excessively. We're not crazy "hands-on" but, for example, we held hands walking to the car, we touch each other when we talk, etc., She doesn't draw away or anything like that, and she'll touch me when she talks to me. Our two dates prior to last night, both ended with a kiss (and not a peck on the cheek.) But she told me that even though I was a good kisser, that she didn't feel a spark when she kissed me. And you know what? Honestly, I really didn't either. So there is physical contact between us... all of that is positive...Tonight, for example, she offered her coffee for me to try... But there is no "electricity" between us. It is the damndest thing... because I think we both want it to be there, and it doesn't seem to be. I almost wanted to tell her that if we kept up with "what we were doing" that the spark would come eventually.... But I don't want her to feel pressured. I don't get it. I really don't... So, yes, I am attracted. I am not head over heels fallen for her, which normally I am after the first date with someone... Very strange.

Actually I think it's interesting you find her very physically attractive but you're still not wanting more based solely on that. I know I can remember a time, a gazillion years ago, when physical attraction counted for a lot & I made many efforts in the wrong direction for that alone. It's good neither of you are trying to force something that clearly isn't there.

You don't have to stop seeing her but if I were in this situation I'd change focus from possible partner to friend. If you're still in touch & see each other there's room for more to happen. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Seeing other people you may discover a spark with one of them which will help this relationship come into clearer focus.

is it? or are you now more experienced, more mature, and realize that dating with marriage experience is not the same as dating with innocence? no fireworks really occur. . . but i will tell you from your description, because you don't know, its a very good idea NOT to make any big decisions or plans. .

finally, if your dating relationship felt normal, and you married the one who ran away, then if you date a normal person, don't you think the relationship might feel strange?

think about it because that's a big key to the inner you.

wiftty

I agree w/ Nams here....sounds like you guys might have a good friendship developing here, so continue seeing her w/ no expectations as wiffty said, keep your options open and see what happens.

GL!

"let's be friends"

The kiss of death.

I'm not sure if it's a "let's be friends" thing or not...

And I thing nams and wiftty both touched on it a little. She is drastically different from others that I've dated, and she said that I am way different from who she's dated, too. I told her I think that difference has affected me some, and that it just may take a little longer to have all of the other variables in place first...

That said, I don't know if she's already decided that we'll never be more than friends... She says she hasn't, but that may just be "letting me down easy"...

I've been optimistic, but realistic so far... I think I'll keep it that way.

In my experience, I have often observed that women do not generally put men in rigid categories. That sometimes a woman can be friends for a long time with a man who treats her right, and only THEN discover that she does have feelings for him. The spark comes THEN.

I have noticed that this does not seem to happen as MUCH with men. That once a guy puts you in the friend category, that is generally (though not always) where you stay.

So, I'm not sure that the feelings won't develop later. I've known LOTS of women who weren't interested initially, but then grew to love the person with all the depth and passion that one might hope to have.

Is it possible that you are both so used to relationships where you have to work really hard; where things are flitter-flutter because they are uncertain... and now that you have a steady, enjoyable relationship, it feels sparkless?

Do you want to kiss her at all? Does she want to kiss you? Does it feel good to both of you when you kiss?

I'm just not sure that the tupsy-turvy, reckless sort of feeling that people often associate with a "spark' is always healthy. There's something to be said about easy, relaxed and comfortable. As long as you are attracted enough to each other to enjoy touching each other and being touched by each other.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm no expert.

Telly,

Hmmmm....

First of all, I do want to kiss her... and with the exception of the other night, she has wanted to kiss me, I believe. We had been out and it was late, and we're both a little sick... So I'm not stressing about that.... Our kisses felt "fine" to me. I mean, I don't recall hearing music our anything...;) But I enjoyed it.

The only thing that concerns me about what you said about being friends and then something later... She said something along the lines of "us being at an age (Me:29, she: 28) where you don't want or need to spend a year with someone and then decide you don't want to be with them..." or something to that effect. So I don't know if she would leave the door open to anything more...

I kinda feel that she is feeling a lot of pressure right now. She's succesful, has her own house... Almost all of her friends are married, or engaged. Her best friend (who is divorced) has been dating a "great guy" for 6 months. I think she is feeling that pressure... and that may be influencing this some. She even told me that she's been struggling really hard with this, praying about a lot... and still isn't sure what to do... She told me that she felt guilty almost, because I had treated her so great, I hadn't pressured her for anything, and she couldn't figure out why she wasn't crazy about me. She actually called my best friends wife, to ask her advice about what to say to me, since she knows me.

I do want to keep seeing her. I think she's great... I've been really good about not pressuring her into anything, and maybe she'll see that I'm OK with taking time to figure this all out...

We'll see....

keep low expectations, and just go out and have a good time. . . remember, the future is uncertain, so today's reality of thought may not be the reality in the future. . .

just be friends. . . and act yourself and normal . ..
what is different for me is that my GF feels normal, or not different or weird, but just very similar to me . . and easy to get to know and love. .

if its easy, that goes along way. .

just keep looking and be friends. . .

wiftty

Sounds like she only has "sparks" for the bad boys..The hard to get, players. The ones that "treat her like crap".

Get her drunk, take advantage of her, then don't call for a few days - bet she'll feel "sparks" then..Only joking ...

You both are pretty young still and naturally "expect" sparks..I don't have any real advise as when I was that age, I expected "sparks" too. Now that I'm quite a bit older I plan on running from sparks as those where the relationships that just didn't work in the long run.

Hugs

Yup, agreed. Unless of course she wanted to be "friends" in the true sense of the word, i.e. she pays her share, she initiates activities, etc - rather than just want to be wined and dined.

AGG

This sounds awful.
And might work too.
If she was serious about describing her past bad guys BFs, and if she likes drinking (at least from time to time) in night bars.
But, then, how could that be good enough for a good guy as thefurnitureman...?


Hm... 29... when I was 29 and 'dated' a guy more than a few evenings... if he didn't try to kiss me, or looked at me with the passion, nor showed me his desire... even if I felt 'sparks' at the beginning, that 'waiting' and 'considerations' would be sparks-killer... my desire at the beginning would move to feeling of being just a friend with that guy.
And, you know what, too good guys were... boring... for love, not for friendship though...
Well, I paid price for being like that and married one of those 'not boring', she will too... and you, thefurnitureman, maybe if you find the one that already paid it and now know to respect what she gets from you...


Anyway, I wouldn't continue to be 'too good', just good is enough...

"I've been really good about not pressuring her into anything, and maybe she'll see that I'm OK with taking time to figure this all out..."

Maybe, and maybe not... somethimes 'pressure' means 'lead', and 'lead' is what most of women in the essence want, regardless how strong and independent they might seem to be...

B2M,

You make some good points. I waited until our third date... Not on our first date, just because... and our "second date" was at her house. She was deathly ill... so I brought her soup and movies...

But she's been "aware of my intentions" for a couple of weeks now....

She has responded well to me leading in things that we've done... I offered to let her choose where we went to eat one night... and she balked, so I picked somewhere... Perhaps I can apply that same thing here...

She really did sound like she was struggling with this, and I'm willing to take her at face value at this point.

It's significant that she would choose to tell you something like this. My suggestion is that you do a 180 - put her in the "friends" category, stay friendly but don't spend as much time with her, and start looking for someone else. First of all it's healthier for you, assuming the so-called spark never comes. And secondly she can think about the change and see if she has any regrets. Third, if you fight too hard against her perception, it can look pathetic and unattractive.

This approach sort of worked for me, except that by the time she "came around" it was too late, I had already found somebody else.

Good luck.

Think about why women are attracted to bad guys. It's not because they're bad guys. It's because they're confident and masculine.

Here's what my experience has been.

With every and I mean every woman I've had success with, I showed some interest and got to know her a bit, then backed off and appeared not to care whether or not she liked me.

By contrast, every woman I've pursued has said no thanks. Stuff like flowers and gifts just seem to make them lose interest, though they like it if you're nice to them when they get sick.

The other night I was at a club. My friend was at the bar. It was a little crowded, though not horribly. I walked over, and my friend said something about getting a drink for the woman behind him 'cause she was having trouble fighting her way to the bar. I said, "Let her get her own drink." Peripherally, I saw her eyes flash at me, but I ignored her. After a spell, she tapped me on the shoulder and said, "What did you say about me?" I smiled at her and said, "I just told my friend here that you're all grown up and can get your own drink." I wasn't being mean or nasty. I was flirting. Our groups wound up chatting. I was standoffish and funny. She took off her jacket. I said, "Let's see your arm." She flexed her muscle for me. "Not bad," I said, "but you could work on it a little harder." Her jaw dropped, like she was offended, but she was smiling. By the end of the night I saw her eyes on me every time I was in her line of sight. I wasn't rude, or disrespectful. I just flirted with her and appeared not to care whether or not she liked me, and as far as I could tell, it made her socks roll up and down. My friend was willing to do whatever she asked, and she was not one bit interested in him.

This isn't game-playing! It's courtship, and it's fun. It makes life interesting and exciting, and it makes sparks happen. You don't have to be an a-hole. You can still be thoughtful and kind. But if you're just the most wonderful, sweet person in the world all the time, willing to do anything they want... well, in my experience women seem to get bored and lose interest.

I'll bet you've had similar experiences.

Just my $0.02.

GC

Graycloud,

What would be an equivalent of your example for women?