Oh boy, what a difference 3 little letters can make. Here's the revised post:


Give that correction....withdrawal can take as long as it needs. If she didn't have a good recovery plan then yes she could very well be in limbo land and in withdrawal.

L.

I've been doing a lot of reading of other posts, learning a lot, trying to give encouragement where I can. But I've been avoiding my own thread.

My W asked recently if I have forgiven her. I trotted out an automatic "yes", but honestly I'm still working on it. I realize that I have a lot of resentments and since I'm a conflict avoider and the initial pain of discovery has waned somewhat, I find myself just letting things slide.

But I realize that I need to be the leader of my W, family, M. I'm currently strategizing on how to do that. I've learned a lot from MortarMan on that front.

I'm also learning the difference between ultimatums (trying to change another person) and boundaries (changing myself).

I have a long way to go.

Why you been avoiding your own thread?

We missed you.

Wondering if you told your wife that you hadn't forgiven her yet...that you gave her an automatic yes because you're still struggling?

And I've been wondering about those resentments...and if you are tired of poisoning yourself yet? I'm volunteering for the detox.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I have been avoiding my own thread because it is easier to read about other people's recovery than to deal with my own. I have not told my wife, but I'm waiting for her to get home (she's out watching a movie with friends). I would like to tell her tonight.

Yes, I'm definitely tired of poisoning myself with expectations, entitlements and resentment. After last Tuesday, when she was angry with me, there were so many LBs that I think she over-drew her account in the love bank. I have been emotionally distant since and she can tell. I actually contemplated deciding not to work it out (the recovery) for the first time ever. I was just worn out.

But I'm not ready to be radically honest. So what is holding me back? Fear of the unknown. Lack of knowledge about how to go about it. Laziness, lack of spine.

So I spent a week or so reading advice being given to others. There is definitely a lot of wisdom to be found here. Now I must decide to forgoe head knowledge for action. Something I am not good at in general. I'm a philosopher and a spectator. Time to engage.

I was watching intervention on tv a few minutes ago. Decided to turn it off and come here. I realized I was not even honest with complete strangers on this board, when I made my first post, I purposely left out some painful things I had just learned to protect my FWW from complete strangers. How odd is that?

Uhm, did you read any of the threads I post to?

Why tonight? When it is late and she's coming from a movie?

Not odd on the protection of your FWW...very sad that you would protect someone else who isn't here instead of helping yourself.

Your resentments were created by you, not her. I was speaking of your DJs, not hers.

I don't think you can be radically honest until you're safe...and you don't feel safe. And I don't think your wife is in withdrawal...I think she has held something inside her for so long it harden into a stone she has to spit out.

Just my opinion.

LA

Actually yes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think you are incredibly wise and I feel fortunate that I have the opportunity to chat with you.

Hmm. Well, procrastination hasn't really gotten me very far to this point. No time like the present. But I think what you're trying to say is don't do it when I am tired or when she is returning from an enjoyable evening.

I agree completely. In fact it has been your postings on other threads that has helped me to see how that all works. At least to a limited extent. It is starting to make sense.

Yes, our MC told me that too. I have definitely felt safer since then, than in the last ten years of marriage. I forgot to mention that my first wife left me after 4 months. Kinda makes me nervous when FWW is angry and threatens to leave. So how do I help her spit out her stone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Wow...this was far back on the active topics. Sorry 'bout that. I was looking for it.

Did you not approach your wife last night, then? You nailed it with the being tired and you DJ'd about her coming from an enjoyable evening. You didn't know if it was going to be enjoyable or not, right?

You change you and her stone will come out. Just as you fear because anger represents something to you, so does she. Know that she is equal and separate from you...has all her own stuff, just like you do.

What does anger mean to you? In yourself and others?

Have you done a resentment timeline?

Thank you for reading my other posts because it helps me to not retype, retype...I am just talking to you, not throwing a blanket philosophy over you and call you soothed.

However, all that I write is applicable because I'm writing to humans. I accept I will sound redundant and begin to doubt myself. I do it anyway.

You sound cautious yet wishful; an interesting combination of beliefs. I am just talking to you when I write. I can tell because you said "to a limited extent."

Beliefs don't have limitations--they are purists. They are absolutes in us which we must replace as we learn more.

Talk to me, intention. My privilege.

LA

Yeah, these things sure drop fast don't they!

I did not approach my W last night, other than to tell her how much I enjoyed lunch with her earlier in the day. I didn't realize that assuming her evening was enjoyable could be a DJ. Is that because I am making assumptions about what she is feeling? Her feelings are hers, not mine - am I getting it?

Lack of control, buried resentments manifested verbally and emotionally, unconsciousness (because consciousness and present awareness are the opposite of anger), angry outbursts by my W make my chest tight, I avoid conflict. Anger from other people does not have that effect. So maybe my reaction is coming from fear. Fear that she will leave me.

No. Not sure what that is, but I think I read your description of it from another post. (this is where the wiki would be helpful) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think I need to write down all my resentments from as far back as I can remember, ask my W to do the same. And then share with each other.

Yes I am wishful. Or rather hopeful. I have a vision of what my M could be. I want to get there. I intend to get there. My caution comes from past pain, present pain, pride, laziness.

Yes, I am starting to learn and understand a lot more about myself. I am realizing that I need to work on myself, not try to change my W. I feel like a flower blooming in the Spring. Exciting. Thanks for you advice and support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Is that because I am making assumptions about what she is feeling? Her feelings are hers, not mine - am I getting it?"

Yup. On the nose.

Sneaky, aren't they? We DJ all over the place, thinking it good, kind, etc...not disrespectful at all.

"Lack of control, buried resentments manifested verbally and emotionally, unconsciousness (because consciousness and present awareness are the opposite of anger), angry outbursts by my W make my chest tight, I avoid conflict. Anger from other people does not have that effect. So maybe my reaction is coming from fear. Fear that she will leave me."

Okay, let's break this down...lack of control--when you feel angry, you feel out of control? When you feel the cause of someone else's anger, you feel out of control?

On resentments...buried ones or ones you're actively creating daily? I was a historic resenter...from very young. List what the feeling of resentment gives you, what's your payoff...that might help.

I don't believe that consciousness and awareness are the opposite of anger. Anger comes from the belief that either someone is crossing your boundaries or not meeting your expectations. The BELIEF you choose to live by, which is create no expectations (premeditated resentments) or resentments would remove your resentment. Choosing no action which allows you to create new resentments is crucial. Yes, being aware of your choices, choosing to believe resentment is within your control, you made it and own it, goes far in the removal of it.

You feel anger in your body, your heart, your mind and your spirit. You're not alone. When our parents showed anger, we felt it like the vibration it was, and took it within ourselves with the belief we caused it. First DJ to ourselves, eh?

Anger is a secondary emotion--I get that you've already identified your primary one...fear. Fear of abandonment, removal of presence, love, acceptance, appreciation, admiration...list your ENs, 'cuz I'm guessing here. Approval?

Great news...your fear is your own...coming from your beliefs. What would those beliefs be?

The resentment timeline works with your partner and without. If she doesn't want to do one, do yours anyway. Your resentments were made by you for you...just looks the other way around right now.

"My caution comes from past pain, present pain, pride, laziness." May I suggest fear?

Watch the hopeful/wishful you carefully. Your present is where you are at...what you have before you IS you...different from any other day of your life. Wishing can masquerade a nefarious control freak. I know. I was one!

Your blooming adds beauty to the world, which includes my heart. There is a lot of relief, oceans of love and acceptance in you...and there always has been. You are going to get there.

Back to separate and equal...what you own and what she owns. Do not allow yourself to fear what she owns, her power, her choices. Yours are equally powerful. Truly believing, consciously choose to see God's design that her anger is her own...information from her beliefs to her...and not about you is essential to getting that we're human. Just as your anger, resentment, pain, frustration (and laziness is NOT an emotion), pride...are ours.

There is a key to your fear of abandonment...you may not realize that because you focused it on your W, that others don't come into play. They do. Know that your choice to focus your own fear on someone else is essential to understanding it. This isn't about what others can do to you, this fear is about what you do to yourself.

LA

Wow, there's a lot here. Thanks! I'm going to re-read and ponder and get back to you...

OK, here goes...

Yes, when I am angry, I feel out of control. Like I just went over a waterfall and am being churned in the waters. I don't think anger is an appropriate response to any situation. In fact, I came across a quote that sums it up. "No matter how assailed, anger need not arise, no matter what the pleasure, compulsion need not arise, not matter what the circumstances, discontent need not arise." If someone else is angry with me, I do not feel out of control in general. However if it is my wife, then yes, because of my fear. But I have identified that and am making improvements. I was able to recently withstand a barrage of DJ, AO while maintaining my own focus. I wasn't perfect, had a few LB's myself, but still came away feeling victorious.

Many buried resentments, still some being actively created, but infrequently. I don't think there is a payoff. They don't give me anything, but they are there. Maybe they give me a feeling of righteous indignation. The feeling of having been wronged.

Yes, that makes sense. I had never though of it in those terms, but I see how that works, e.g. if DJ and AO from my W make me feel angry, then I am angry because she has crossed my boundary? Or not met my expectation about how conflict ought to be resolved? So in either case, my feeling of anger is my own choice.

Is it possible to live without expectations?

No resentments. Crucial. Yes. But practically how does this look? Walk me through this. My W is DJ and AO. I resent being treated that way. I weather the storm. Within a day or two, she starts being sweet and affectionate again. But carry the resentment of how she behaved. How do I break out of that?

My ENs - Affection, Admiration, SF, Honesty and Openness, Physical Attraciveness.

Yes, my own, therefore within my control. Good news indeed. If it is mine, I can solve it. My beliefs? Well that might take a novel...

Wow, that is really deep. I'm still chewing the cud on this concept. Very powerful.

Ditto above. My fear is my own. Has nothing to do with first W or current FWW. My fear has nothing to do with what others can do to me. My fear is about what I do to myself. It will take me a while to fully grasp this.

You posted my first day of vacation. I missed it. God guided me back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Yes, when I am angry, I feel out of control. Like I just went over a waterfall and am being churned in the waters."

This sounds like what I experience when I fear. Anger is a secondary emotion...would you say normally that your first emotion is fear?

"I don't think anger is an appropriate response to any situation." Anger comes in on the heels of fear and pain because anger is your watchdog...a healthy emotion to say that you believe someone is either crossing your boundaries or failing your expectations. Nothing more. Just a signal.

"In fact, I came across a quote that sums it up. "No matter how assailed, anger need not arise, no matter what the pleasure, compulsion need not arise, not matter what the circumstances, discontent need not arise." If someone else is angry with me, I do not feel out of control in general. However if it is my wife, then yes, because of my fear."

Back to fear. Then anger.

What combats fear?

Compassion.

How compassionate are you with yourself? With your fear? If you believe your fears come from the outside inward, then anger will signal you. If you choose to believe that fear resides in you, is yours, then anger doesn't follow on its heels.

"Is it possible to live without expectations?"

I like living this way...won't know til you try it, right?

"No resentments. Crucial. Yes. But practically how does this look? Walk me through this. My W is DJ and AO. I resent being treated that way. I weather the storm. Within a day or two, she starts being sweet and affectionate again. But carry the resentment of how she behaved. How do I break out of that?"

Looks like this...I choose not to withhold my thoughts, feelings and beliefs from my DH, though he DJs and AOs. I will not self-betray and create resentment. I will not agree to take out the garbage when it is his turn and feel resentment. Either I won't take out the garbage, or I will, and not resent.

When she DJs, practice saying, "I hear you saying that when I state what I feel and believe, you feel attacked. When you say I'm attacking you, that's disrespectful. It is abuse. You are telling me what I am doing, defining me and my motivation and desire. I am committed to no longer doing that to you."

Then you can't resent because you didn't self-betray. You remove yourself when she continues. You do it lovingly. You stay busy with not DJing or AOing yourself. You become safe. By choosing not to resent, you are becoming safe to yourself.

Instead of looking at your W to fulfill your ENs, take a look at how you do this for yourself:

"My ENs - Affection, Admiration, SF, Honesty and Openness, Physical Attraciveness."

Are you affectionate with you? Do you allow yourself to congratulate or highlight when you achieve (admiration)? Are you O&H with yourself...staying aware of your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs...honestly, within yourself? Are you pleased with your physical attractiveness? Do you accept yourself wholly, know you are separate and equal to everyone? I leave out the SF not to ignore it...but because it represents acceptance to me...acknowledgment that I am acceptable. What does it represent to you?

Thinking of you...remembering how your screen name brought you to my attention...and how I didn't finish formulating my "Intention Vs. Intending" thread idea.

In God's time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hey welcome back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hope you had a great vacation. I missed you. As usual, your post is packed full of wisdom. I will meditate and ponder instead of rushing into a superficial answer. Thanks for looking me up.

LA, I hope you are out there. The fear is back. FWW is in Japan with our two youngest. I have been beseiged with fear and doubt about what she is doing, who she is seeing. This is the first time we have been apart like this since d-day and OM is from there.

I called her last night and told her how much I missed her, but was not able to articulate my exact fear, i.e. have you seen him? have you thought about seeing him? FWW claims NC for over ten years now but can I really trust that?

I emailed her brother and asked him when the last time was that he saw OM. Not sure if that was the wisest thing to do. How do I conquer this fear?