Welcome to your Monday, Inferno...

Sounds like you learned a primary lesson in Plan A...do not ask WS's for truth, their thoughts or feelings about you and do not make promises you do not intend to keep to your WS. Do not make promises that will help cover up an affair, their choices or consequences.

You did all of these...and you feel really lost and crappy right now. You know better.

Let me ask you straight--why do you ask for truth from someone who lies? Is is the liar's fault? Or the askers?

Why do you want to force feelings from your WW. I know you greatly desire to be loved by your wife, but she isn't there right now. Leave a message and she'll get back to you.

After our posting, why do you directly involve yourself in a pi%%ing contest with OM and who knows your WW best?

Why are you arguing with a WS?

How is any of that discussion I statements and not DJs?

God gave you a moment that BS's rarely get...the swamping of love you feel for someone in the midst of pain. You're right...you disrespected your WW and yourself when you choose to believe you couldn't stop. You DJ'd her and her value of affection, her expression. You choose to see it only in reflection of how you give it.

Read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.

Know you do this, own it...it isn't that you couldn't stop...you didn't want to. You're addicted to your wife, maybe? Sound reasonable?

"She said she wanted to warn me about telling my family anything that I didn't want to get out and taht she had told me so. I told her that I'll be careful about what i say, so that my family isn't harrassing her or the OM." This is a promise to break your marriage to save your WW from her own consequences. Your family matters...to you and to your family of origin. Did you say your WW and OM work for the same company? Have you exposed there?

Spouses don't warn each other. They communicate what their thoughts, feelings and beliefs are. People in As warn. Why would you promise to be careful, like you control others? Why is that Plan A to you? "My sister and mother are in a lot of pain from your choices, also. They fear losing their nephews and grand children. For the damage your A is doing to everyone...your family, too."

Have you tried this truth yet? "WW, I love you. I have been extremely controlling where I really have no control. I fear you leaving, am in a lot of pain from my part in our marriage, and I am committed to learning and changing so that our marriage can thrive."

When she says this isn't about A but about you lying for months last year, listen and repeat. "I hear you believe you are making your choice to have an A because I was deceitful and closed to you last year, is that correct?"

Practice. Practice. These are not spontaneous utterings, naturally at hand. They are practiced, in a mindset of respect, where you end and she begins, and be respectful by choice, not dependent on her reaction or words.

She abused you by telling you that you are selfish. You cried. You felt lonely and rejected. This is not boundary enforcement. This is not being good to yourself or your WW. You have a ways to go but will get there, "Stop. That is abusive. Please do not define me." Again with the couldn't help it...you feel what you feel. Know your part. Tell me your part in what you felt...lonely and rejected. You have already told me hers. Tell me yours.

Your wife DJs quite a bit...abusive patterns. So are yours. Once you stop, the dance halts. You begin a new dance with new steps...she either doesn't dance (leaves) or stops the abuse and dances with you. That's your power. Your choice. Hers remain hers.

You must stop the DJs and abuse first. It is essential. The only way I know because I was the one who had to stop first.

"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" Harriet Lerner, spells it out very well. There is also one I haven't read, highly recommended, "I Don't Have To Take This Anymore" by Stosny (not like it sounds, trust me). Learn about the way your marriage has functioned from both of your beliefs...that it is okay to be controlling, abusive, defining and bashing one another with labels, name calling and tearing at each other (with withdrawal, silent treatment, forgetting, and other behaviors) because that is what was exampled to you both growing up. You can't change her. You can gain knowledge and share how you are choosing to change your beliefs, the way you choose to live, and stop living reactively.

I believe this is essential to your Plan A and your life.

"I asked her a few questions about where things stood..." Really important...why? Why do you ask for truth from someone lying to you and themselves? Why? Plan A respects that your wife is wayward. Why don't you?

And things don't stand...like they are in her power. You stand here and she stands there. You have your part...your truth. Do not shove the responsibility for all of the marriage onto her shoulders. That is controlling, irresponsible and not really possible. Your part remains. That's reality.

Practice this, please. "She said she could do it herself."

Your reply, "I believe you are thoroughly capable of taking care of everything in your life. I am only realizing now I have been priviledged when you allow me a part in that. I never doubted your ability."

See where pleasing is abusive? When you do for others without their specific request, they can hear "I'm not good enough to do this for myself. He doesn't think I'm worth spit, a child, and he is only doing it so I will think well of him, when each time he does this, I believe he thinks worse of me. He will trade me in on anything if it makes him feel better about himself. I am worthless."

Yeah, do-gooders be darned. That's why I questioned you on your motives, your beliefs in pleasing/fixing...if you were aware at all of how critical it can feel, demeaning and distancing?

"Told her I was sorry, and didn't want her to think that this was going to be a pattern if we tried to work things out." What won't be a pattern? Within your control or hers?

"Here's my question. Seems I have two feelings in regards to her that I can't seem to find a way to circumvent when the need arises. Love and lonliness. How do I deal w/ those?"

You have more than two feelings...you choose to love your WW and you feel that. You are feeling lonely and rejected...rejection by others gives us lonely feelings, coming from a belief that if we are not accepted we are not loved, hence, we are alone. Is this a reasonable and true belief? Or can you be rejected right now? And with all the horrible promises you make to your WW at your own expense, could your self believe "I will love others and not myself. I hate who I am. I am unacceptable," and those beliefs are generating a lot of rejection that isn't from the outside but the inside?

Analyze thyself, Inf...spend that time on you, not her.

"I respect her, love her, cherish her... but don't know how to put those feelings aside when I need to. I'm starting to think I need medication... brother."

I hear you say you believe you respect her, choose to love her and would like to demonstrate that you cherish her...but you don't know how, can't help yourself, wouldn't matter anyway, maybe...because you choose to follow your feelings instead of learn how to do those things. ADs would be a good self-caretaking measure. Not to manage your feelings, but to quiet them because you are in the pattern, the habit, the belief that they rule your life.

ADs do help clarity, but they do not numb you unless you believe they will.

"I write her notes often now." Is this her love language or yours?

I do not believe you could have saved your marriage then because you didn't have the tools...you could have patched it for awhile, but the elements would remain the same. Allow that you didn't, you don't know what your future would have looked like if you had (and if you believe you do, then you're in fantasy), and that God brought you here for a purpose, and you had your part, to this moment. Do not attempt to out-think God.

Heed this advice...you are hurting yourself with these thoughts...generating a lot of pain from self-betrayal, expecting your previous self to know more and have acted on it than the you you are today.

Stop hurting yourself so you can know, analyze and understand the extent of the other pain...find the belief behind it, the fear, and begin living with truth instead of fantasy (anything that did not happen in the past is fantasy as well).

There is nothing wrong, defective or incapable about you. You can do this. You will thrive. I believe in you.

LA

"I don't know where to start. Stabbing at counseling first."

In the works... I've gotta do this. I need to straighten myself out for me. I love her, but she worries me. Her anger consumes her just as much as mine did me. She needs this too. I really love her and don't want to see her do anything she'll not be able to take back later out of anger. I don't want her to have any regrets because she couldn't get past this. I want us to have a happy life together like we planned all those years ago...

"Your mother is willing to pay for counseling...call the Harleys. Makes the most sense...direct and no interview required...their credo is here on the website. You act and make the appt...you already know not to ask if your wife wants to or not...her choice, not yours. You ask if the appt time is convenient. You have your fears and you sit with them...you don't act on or from them...usually in spite of them. Acknowledge you have them. Period. They can be content with that."


I know I have my fears. I'm doing better at accepting them. I just wonder if maybe I haven't pushed my feelings on her for so long that she'll never look at me the same again. She said I'm like a friend and appreciates all I've done for her for the last ten years. That sounds like the voice of acceptance. One that is ready to move on. Is ti the anger talking though? Could she still love me, or decide later that she does? I don't know. I have to keep trying, for me, for the last ten years, for love, for our marriage, for our daughter.


"Please stop judging yourself. You judge within your posts about your posts. Judgment corrupts and distorts...it is not based in reality. Judgment is the power behind the control freak...who is based on fantasy and you can see why. Judgment feeds us lies we choose to believe. Real power begins with the choice not to judge. You exist. You are. You choose and not choose. Leave right or wrong out of it, especially for the sake of your marriage right now."

I noticed that. Habits, habits, habits. I do tend to word things in a different way than what I mean them to say sometimes. I see clearly where I am judging here though.

"You don't judge OM better or worse than you because he's not real...the fantasy is the A and that makes it a scary opponent. This is huge complex stuff and I am thirsting for a one strand to hold onto in a lot of tangled cords."

I guess I'm looking at this from a perspective of she's living in and looking for fantasy right now, he's just that, and dealing w/ me is having to face reality. After what he said to her about not taking his old life back, he is clearly going to tell her what she wants to hear. She can't see taht though. She's told me so herself by saying taht he would never do taht to her. He's on the pedestal now. She felt sympathy for him before and did for him for taht reason, and lived for me. Now it seems he and I have reversed roles. She's never been good at facing reality. Every time she has major relationship issues, she turns to a fresh start w/ someone else before things are even resolved. I'm trying to be the light... honest. I'm finding taht I'm tired though. This has been ongoing for almost 6 months, w/out counting the years I was not acting myself. I'm chugging along. I think what might help is me trying less to get other people's opinions and trying to work on this myself. I rely too much on other people for direction in my life. I could really use your guidance though. Noone else has seemed to be able to give me solid advice, just biased opinions from people who have never been able to resolve their own issues.


"Projection...we all do it. Teaching ourselves not to do it key to not messing up the information our feelings are giving us. Projection adds more. It is also a great tool, when you become aware of, to know yourself better. Doing it unconsciously is killer, though. Potent stuff. Use wisely."

Not getting what you mean by projection? You mean, conveying my feelings to others? I've definitely been guilty of doing it unconciously. I rarely stopped to think, and am having a hard time learning how to. habits. instinct. reaction. I need some more work, though I've made some progress.

"Lemme try this again...did YOU expose to everyone?"

No. She intimidates me. When she makes threats, she follows through. I don't see how I'm going to save my marriage and eliminate the OM. I keep thinking that the latter is soemthing she'll have to do like she did previously.

"and I believe his family (atleast his brother) knows." Am I hearing correctly that word got around means that you exposed?"

No. I know his brother knows because his brother is how she found out. Seems to be a double edged sword IMO. Exposure/non-exposure could mean sacrificing he marriage. How do i deal w/ that?



"How do you choose your actions? From your feelings? A plan may not be your cure, Inferno...maybe the illusion you want in place to feel better immediately, but not necessarily to save your marriage. I'm here either way, but would like your truth."

I want to save my marriage. I really do. I do want to feel better, but it doesn't have to be all at once right now. I could handle this situation so much better if i knew she wanted to work this out. Even a little. She just doesn't right now. At all, if ever. From what I can see, and what she tells me anyway. She can't get past the lies, and already had trust issues before I messed up. She doesn't love me the same, if at all anymore. I don't see what I can give her that she isn't going to get from the A or anyone else. This is her chance to start over, to put the rotten things I did to her behind her. Who wouldn't jump on that oppotunity? I'm trying anyway... I love her. How did you do it? Was your situation similar to mine? I wish I knew wheter or not I was fighting a losing battle. I just want a shred of evidence taht there's hope". I haven't found it yet.


Meeting her ENs would not include moving out. That's not an EN, you understand? That is your choice. She can't make you, force you (short of filing for legal seperation, depending on your state) to choose to move out. Plan A is about being true to yourself and to your spouse."

I don't want to move out, but everyone I know is telling me i need to. She is, my family and friends are. I keep telling them that it's not the best thing for our relationship. That if I could just get myself to where I need to be, my being there could be a benefit. My W is working on kicking me out I think? I don't know. She has been puting it off for months and months now, but then every time we have a day like yesterday it seems she takes another step in tha direction. We are legally seperated in the state of NY as of Feb 1st. We live in her Father's house taht we rent. If I didn't leave when she asked, he'd take care of the problem for her. I don't feel like I have a say in the ultimate decision of whether or not I stay. I can only try to influence her not to make that decision. I don't know. It's a shaky situation at best, and I feel like i keep rocking the tower. It honestly feels like she is keeping me there so taht she can take her time in getting her life w/out me together. She feels that I took something wawy from her by lying and being miserable and abusive all these years, so she is going to do her best to make sure i can never do taht to her again.

Here is why to choose your life based on feelings is crazymaking:

"Recently, I've taken to telling her that I don't agree w/ her seeing him, but it is her choice to make and if she has feelings for someone else then then i can't change that. I can see some things wrong w/ that. I see some control in there, plus a defeatist attitude on my part. A little bit of guilting her into pushing him away? I think what i should be saying is that I love her, that I'm working to better myself and am hoping that maybe she'll find her feelings for me again? That's practically saying the same thing when i think about it..."

You choose to say, "I love and accept who you are. You are making a choice to have an A. I am choosing to save my marriage by changing myself, one belief at a time, so that I can be a respectful, loving person, without judgment."

Very similar to your second sentence above...what makes it different, not at all the same, is your intent. If you intent remains to control and manipulate, then your choices may look the same, but be dependent on the results. You will read here where Plan A kicked people's butts...because their intent was to not understand and make better choices based on themselves, but on the result. This illustrates you really can't judge a book by its cover...intent matters greatly.

I see your point. Rather thn me fixing me so I can get my marriage back, I need to fix me for me and as a result get my marriage back. I think that's what you're trying to say?

Accept the person, judge the actions. Her anger is hers...you don't know where it comes from but you are choosing from your reactive emotions to her anger, which is a contest no one wins. You cannot cause, control or cure her.


I want to fix me for me. She needs to fix her for her. I just don't how to deal w/ me having fixed me, but her moving on and leaving me w/ this hole in my heart that I could possibly never fill again. Atleast not completely. To be honest, I look at her anger as foreign. Her attitude was good over the last 6-7 years. To see these things resurface in her after so long... it's like trying to learn how to deal w/ them all over again. Only this time it's different because she's learned how to focus her anger instead of lashing out. It seemed before that she didn't control it and it would leave her if I worked on improving myself. Now, it seems like she has harnessed it, controls it, doesn't want to let go and isn't going to give it up w/out a fight. Bending it to her will.

She said yesterday that these feelings have always been there, and that is part of why she can't accept that I'm changing and won't slip back into old habits. It's not taht they came, left her, and came back again. They've been there all along, dormant and waiting for a reason to come out.

Repeat.

You cannot cause her to be angry, loving, faithful, kind...or control it out of her or cure her of them. Her choices. Yours are yours. That you are choosing to be reactive, create resentment to hold against her, like a fireblanket to save your hide is your own undoing. Not hers. If she chooses revenge to the actions you make to save your marriage...that is on her. Threats don't work in a respectful life. You don't make threats, not in your code. You respect revenge as her choice and choose not to give into threats. Now a threat from a boundary enforcement...it helps.

I'm having a hard time w/ this one. Her threats have always been an issue for me. She is a very respectful person when not angry, but when she is the rules don't apply. It's almost as though she has two personalities that are aware of one another but exist on seperate levels. I don't see how opposing her threats is going to help her to see the light in me, or fix our marriage. I want to fix me for me, but I also want to come out of this w/ my family in tact. It just seems to me that if I'm not giving to the threats, but instead working around them that I'm not doing myself an injustice because I'm working to fulfill both of my goals? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one... Sorry. It just seems to me like I'm wasting my time trying to fix my marriage if I'm going to not do what it takes to get around her being angry to do it? This one is uber confusing. It's like hitting a snapping dog w/ a newspaper to get it to stop. Why not give it a bone to distract it and earn it's trust?

"I want her to not be angry." This is your truth. Tell me why? Anger means...disapproval, that you are doing or have done something wrong; means the opposite of love; means you are a mistake and should never have been born...what does anger mean to you...that will solve some of your fears, also. Define anger to yourself, and then tell me why her anger is something you don't want her to have. Being a pleaser, you know this isn't about her and her anger...it is about others' anger at you, a false power and constant conflict avoidance fodder. Get straight what anger really is and you'll go a long way to not reacting to others' anger and you will stop being angry with yourself."

Anger. Anger is a way of falsely controlling a situation you fear. She is afriad that she can't trust me ever again... Afraid that I will never change and that she will be miserable. Afraid of starting over and blames me for it. Afraid that she won't be accepted or has no worth. I guess I'm not afraid of her anger, but rather the actions she takes when angered. It's her irrational actions that scare me. It's her ability to throw every positive characteristic about herself out the window when she is angry that scares me. Her compassion, her morals, possibly even her sanity.

"Good lord! I can't help but laugh at all the dumb things I've been saying." You are sensitive to the judgment of others, in part, because you judge so harshly. I respectfully disagree with you. You have not been saying dumb things. You have been honest with the whats and the hows that you do...I am struggling to get you to the necessary whys...it is difficult. You can't get there on image or fantasy. Is honest dumb? Or is it just what it is?

M<y Step Father used to give me a hard time about calling things Stupid all the time. I guess it's not so much dumb it is just me wishing I hadn't said or done the thing that I'm judging myself by. It's not dumb... I'm looking at it as one more obstacle to overcome. I want to be able to not only see the why's, but use that information as a preventative measure. My biggest issue is going to be finding a way to think and feel my through things instead of just feeling my way through them. I'm letting my heart guide my head instead of the two working together.


"All this time I thought it was everyone else that was the problem, and that I was the normal one. Talk about living a lie."

Do not bash your present understanding...reward it. Look at all those puddles of power you walked through, even threw about, that are yours. You're getting there. There is no blame.

I'm just amazed. Totally amazed. That I've been doing this for so long, that I think I can even overcome it. I really want this. The more I think about it, the more I think that my marriage is actually getting in the way of me doing this though. I wonder if she has actually ever seen me for me even when I was truly being me, or if she has just seen what she has wanted to see this whole time and will continue to do that. If she can't see me for me, then has she really ever loved me? I don't know. I love her.


Rinse. Repeat.

There is no blame...there is understanding. You get that you attempted to love yourself, protect yourself, by seeing others as the ones to blame...blame itself was something to shove away. Would you shove understanding away? Okay, maybe...you have attempted to shove it down your WW's throat. So you can be safe, understood, accepted and to get HER to stop hurting you.

Part of my problem is that I haven't always understood her,
particularly this aspect of her. I accept it as part of her, but I don't know how to respond to it. It's unfamiliar, intimidating. In the past, it made me feel like I needed to respond w/ equal action or subdue it. Control it. The only way I've found to totally do that is to not trigger it. Not give it a reason to surface. That doesn't mean me not being me. That means me fixing myself to be me and not commiting wrongs against my own beliefs. I love her. I have feared this side of her up until now because I knew that I had no control over myself. Now, I fear it because it's already been unleashed, I have the means to have the control overme but no way to turn her rage off so that I can have control over me and still have my relationship.


Start with stop hurting yourself. We are made so that we cannot ask of others what we ourselves do...okay, we ask, but we add to our internal conflict. It is cumulative and it grows over everything...this is self-disrespect, like kudjo, doesn't stop until you cut the root out completely.

I need to stop asking her to do what I expect of me. That's like me not accepting her for who she is anyway. Instead I should set an example... in my being true to myself, inspire her to do the same? You know what bothers me. That she doesn't want the real me. or that she'll see it only for what she wants it to be. The problem will be that I like/want the real her. I've tried not loving her, back when this started. I don't think I can stop loving her. Ever. That's not fair to anyone else I'd ever be w/. I've never been able to love her any less than I do. Even if I wanted to. She's crossed lines, disrespected, ran me into the ground... Done almost everything humanly possible to drive me away and I've never felt different about her. Even when I wanted to.

"I wasn't defending her, I was making excuses for her because i didn't think it was right either." Here is where my use of acceptance might appear cryptic. Acceptance is the belief that all humans are seperate and equal. Acceptance is knowing that we all have our own beliefs, thoughts and feelings seperate from one another. Accepting your WW as a person, just as she is, that is what I'm talking about. What you saw as open and honest from her...her telling you that you're the problem, that you make her angry, not a priority, last place, worthless...is abuse, not truth. Given that she owns her feelings and beliefs, you cannot be responsible for them.


That was me, pushing my ideals and beliefs and personality on her. Trying to recreate her in my own image. It wasn't because i didn't accept it as part of her, I think it was because i didn't understand taht part of her.

Her telling her that when you choose not to talk to her for three days, she feels erased, is a truth with your influence. Your withdrawal and the whys matter...to you and your code. There's no control...and she may fear abandonment, feel punished by your withdrawal, if you don't consciously choose to act with the information you have and are not giving her.

I need to be wary of my influenceon her?

Her part is to find out why she feels punished...your part is to dig and see if you are withdrawing from her to punish or deprive, conflict avoiding or hiding. See the difference in meeting ENs? You both sounds like conversation (which is attention and a desire for intimacy). Listening and repeating is what I'd be doing 24/7 right now...handing back her words to her, from what you really hear, is two-handed information. She feels heard and you know you're not giving an extra kick to yourself through your filter, which may distort her words to inflict more pain on you.


I've been trying to listen and repeat. It doesn't always come out right, or isn't always accepted. Problem is, most of what she has to say is her telling me she doesn't love me, doesn't want me there and doesn't see this working. She doesn't say too much of anything else, and discredits my responses when she does. She is so deep in fantasy right now that I'm not sure I can pull her back. The lies, anger, and violence mean more to her right now than any of the other things I've done. She's clinging to them because they help promote her freedom. Help her live that fantasy.


When you make excuses for others, you are not treating them as equals, but inferiors. They know it but may not know they now it.

yeah. I've never liked doing it. I'd like it if people were more accepting of one another.

Know your intent...later, when you've got the basics really down, you will understand better reasons for choices, but for now, I would stick to no excuses for others. Abject respect. Know that they know. May be worlds away from what you believe...know it anyway.

Do not choose to believe your others' over yourself. Do not add self-betrayal to the external kind. Doubles the pain. You've been doing this your whole life...it is a lot of pain added into your current reality.


"Your repeating it is helping though." Thank you very much for that. Repetition isn't just with you...all over the boards...felt like maybe I was a convert fanatic and doing more damage than good. Needed very much to hear that repeating is necessary for the very reason you stated...same thing in a different circumstance gets us there. We couldn't get all this before...we did the best we knew then...now, knowing better, we do better. Great gift you gave yourself about your anger.


and thanx to you too. :O)

Forgiveness is what you give yourself...accepting that others are as human as you are. It does not mean you approve of their actions (that's judgment); you do understand that they chose those actions. You forgive yourself for believing lies, expecting fidelity, creating resentments to benefit you, for betraying reality and believing you could cause, control or cure another person; you forgive yourself for being wishful and causing yourself pain; you forgive yourself for a lot of things as your part in betrayal...you forgive others when they own what they did, know why they did it, and why they will choose differently in the future. You don't control it, can't force it, and will crave it when you, yourself, demand it.


That's what I'm concerned about. that my W will forgive me, but not approve of me. That she will always judge me for the lies. That is going to be the death of our marriage.

Forgiving yourself is accepting you, your choices, reactions, and pain. Accepting this is an essential part of the human experience...stuff happens. Your part is in choosing after stuff happens. And not allowing yourself to wish it differently (self-betrayal).


I've forgivien myself for my poor actions over the years. I understand why I did them, though don't approve of having done them. Understanding allows me to live w/ them though. I accept them and can move on knowing that they don't define the real me.

Approval is a judgment. From others and to yourself. I got rid of that as part of judgment. Right, wrong, blame, victim, monster...all judgments. Better, worse, best are smaller judgement. Here were my choices today. I'm glad I know what they were...I feel good about four of them, the other seven I will choose differently tomorrow.

My W has a hard time w/ this. She judges people for the same actions she commits and justifies. Though, lately I've seen her pass that same judgement onto herself, but then justify her actions by shifting the blame for them onto someone else. Usually myself.


Acceptance.

When you choose actions that do damage, you recognize the damage, own it, understand it, and the do amends. You cannot undo, but you can amend. This is self-redemption. Amends are determined by the person you injured...if their trust was hit, you be transparent to rebuild trust. If you disrespected or defined them, you stop, make it your highest priority to eliminate that to everyone and yourself. You will build trust and respect in your self at the same time. Beautiful system of balance. Even injuries to others are not aberrations...but essential. Balance.

I don't know that my being transparent in my actions is going to be enough to restore her trust in me. She seems to be pretty accepting of her issues w/ trust. I was forwarned of the consequences years ago were i to lie to her or have an A. I clearly crossed some lines, and now may see the full extent to which those consequences were to be carried out. Though, she did say taht the rules may have changed as she didn't immediately kick me out. Instead she has kept me there and postponed my removal from the house. I'm not sure. Our parting ways still looks like an inevitabiltiy to me at times.


Drop all "what ifs" and "if onlys" out of your vocabulary and your mind. It helps.


I'm trying. It's just hard when I'm looking to the present, but she is so focused on the future. I really want to save my marriage. I just see I being a near impossible task if she is so unwilling to try. I don't know. there's no harm in trying.


Pack up the supposed tos, shoulds, could haves, would haves and ought tos to be airmailed to Siberia with them.

I'm trying. my life has been based on these ideas though.

Try this: Each day, say, "I am." That's it. "I am." Say it when you wake up, look left, sit down, get up...say it out loud, even under your breath. "I am." You are. First fact of reality. Not easy. You've been living under this belief:

If I please others, I live.
If I am good, I am loved.
If I am loved, I exist.
If I exist, I can be killed.

Junk stuff like that. You are. Period. No more than that. You are a human being not a human doing. I say this to reinforce all the judgment constraints you have in your head...should say/do, supposed to say/do...all camoflauge you from your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs. Like covering up all your possessions with sheets so they don't get dust on them. They still exist...they just can't give you real information anymore that way.

I've always had a different take on religion than other people. It fits into this idea that being true to yourself is being true to God. Being true to myself is being true to God and true to others. His rules are my own, after that I'm my own individual. I think that's the best way to describe it. I definitely haven't been living up to that. It's when I'm turning to him for guidance that I feel most that I haven't been true to myself.


You were made perfectly human...not perfect. If you were perfect, you would have no journey. Rejoice in the journey. You will not be judged on your journey, or the end result. You will be learned.

I need to be true to myself. Plain and simple.

"You can't help the way you feel." She was only mostly right (like mostly dead from Princess Bride)...You create your feelings through your belief...lots of choice there. However, you feel what you feel. Feelings are information about your beliefs in reaction to reality. You own your feelings. Are you fearful? Is it reasonable? It is when you are hanging off a 110-story building with only a cable between you and death, correct? How do those guys get over that? They do it again and again and know that yes, the fear is real, but the reality isn't. At least, they know that if they are still alive. Same with feelings...there are reasonable and unreasonable ones. You have reasonable and unreasonable beliefs. Makes sense, huh? Need I say....balance?

(like mostly dead from Princess Bride)... Great movie! :O)
that's just it. The fear is very real to me. I know how I want to live my life. I have this course plotted out w/ specific stops along the way. Problem is, I've taken wrong turns, had the path blocked, stumbled in holes, etc... it just seems sometimes like the journey I had planned for myself is not the one I'm destined to take. Kind of disappointing really. At the same time, If I were living for the moment and not for the future I might acually enjoy life a little more.

Your reality is that by lying about what you own, you get lying feelings. Human. When you stop choosing to lie, you will get honest feelings. So, to accept that you can't help what you feel is like a half-truth, correct? You're gonna feel...God's pathway of truth...only, it is subjected to garbage in/garbage out, correct?

Yeah. I try to control the things i can't, and dismiss the things i can.

Truth can be spoken by those who do evil. Still makes it truth. This is one of them. Your decision to no longer MAKE your decisions from feelings is healthy, given where they come from.


Good. i want to be able to make good decisions instead of negative reactions.

When you forget and react...think of that phrase, "You gonna put that in your mouth? You don't know where it's been!" Like saying, you don't know where it came from...which belief generated it. Anger has two...either comes from your boundaries or your expectations. Either way, you created it, correct? If you feel no one should ever be rude to anyone...your boundary...you will feel anger in the presence of rudeness, even though it isn't directed at you, and relieved it wasn't. Conflicting? You bet. However, your boundary was extended too far...you are judging others by the standard you hold for yourself.



I judge by my standards all the time. What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander though.

Gonna be conflicting results inside of you. Not your boundary to enforce for others (respect); not enforcing it will create anger (at yourself, but feels like at the offending party for crossing your boundary and giving you the need to enforce) and relief...sweet relief...because you can't enforce a boundary for others, strangers...or can you? You can interject your own truth, "I found that rude and inappropriate, what you said to him. I feel fear, anger and relief." Done. That's a boundary enforcement.

So,instead of saying "what you did was wrong" I should say "I didn't agree w/ that"?

However, we hear what we expect...if you've judged a person aggressive, you will see aggression, even when it isn't there. What might be rude to you (tone, gesture, pace) might not be to another. I let that boundary go...until I get my own, around me, set better.


My W sees me as violent and aggressive right now.
She's told me taht she would prefer i were out of the house before going to counseling. She's afraid I'll "beat" her for expressing certain feelings. To me, taht looks like she has something very bad to say about where we are headed in our relationship. To her, it could something totally different. I'm taking what she says and putting my own spin on it because of fears that i have. Though, I have to say that certain other comments she's made have had some influence on my perspective on that comment.


What you truly believe matters. I will accept and respect it. This I will not "If a thought pops up, I put it on paper, even if it's not something I truly believe or is just passing." Please choose more carefully, and there is latitude, to indicate what is a real belief and what is not. What is an old (even thirty-seconds-ago belief) and what you are replacing that belief with. I fear you yanking my chain. I'm gullible. I like that. I will treat all you have to say as truth. I choose to. If you lie, that is about you, not me. I would rather be in on your truth and not your self-deceit.

I wouldn't lie. Not intentionally. I'll try to choose my words more carefully, and think about them before putting them down here to be read. I've actually tried to do that right along. I'm just unsure of the amount of my success. Reading back through some things, I've found a few minor discrepencies... Nothing serious.


"I just start talking at her. I feel like she should listen because I'm telling myself that she's the cause of my feelings and the troubles we are having." I hear your ARRGGGHH very well. That was my onomonopeia of choice. You'll get there, have faith. That you just start talking to her is beneficial for my urging you to use "I feel" and "I believe" statements randomly and often. Depending on her listening, validating, acknowledging...well, that part has to go. I want you to state your true thoughts and feelings in simple statements. One or two at a time.

Heh. I always make things more complex than they need to be. never used to be that way. It was when i started feeling like i had to justify my actions all the time taht i picked up that nasty habit.


In example: "Good morning. I am thinking about why I feel safe when you carry my emotions, thoughts and beliefs. Are we out of milk?"

That seems pretty text book to me... heh. :O) I try to do that. It comes easier when i write to her.

When she speaks, you listen and repeat. No I statements. "I hear you found a CD you thought I'd be interested in." "I hear you believe your OM has real feelings for you and you aren't sure you have them for him."

"I hear you will choose to be vengeful if I expose your affair to his parents."

Guilty as charged. Sometimes. Depends on how focussed I am. if I start feeling panicky, I tend to start pressing her.

Only after she makes her statements. Very important part...you are repeating her beliefs and opinions, not THE truth. Nothing to argue. "You make me so made when you repeat me!" "I hear you feel anger when I repeat what you've said."

"Yes! Stop doing it."

"I accept you want me to stop doing this. I believe you are uncomfortable and do not trust me to not be doing this as a tactic or manipulation. I am doing it so I hear you and understand what you believe."

my problem will be knowing the right thing to say in repsonse to her statements. getting past judging her, or pushing my own beliefs on her. Good examples of what to sy when she's talkina bout the OM and me moving out would help me greatly.


"I'm telling myself that she's the cause of my feelings and the troubles we are having. I want her to "right the wrong she is commiting against me". I respect that you know the reality...you can only right the wrong you are committing against yourself, if you choose to believe that you cannot be (human limitation) the cause, control or cure of another person on this earth.

it just hurts knowing she may not ever want this to work, may not ever love me again and that my love may go unwanted indefinitly. That pain is very real, and presents itself at inopportune times. I need to focus more on the now, not on the what if's.


You are showing yourself truth here, and that's what I missed. You are owning what you feel, how you choose to react to those feelings and your current beliefs. I think you understand Dr. Phil's question better, "How's that working for ya?" No disrespect. When we want desperately to change reality, we can only look to ourselves and our choices, not the results. You keep looking at the results and the question sounds rude, rather than empowering.


It's hard not to look at the results when you want something this much. I'm trying my best.


The intent behind it is respectful, honest and without manipulation. If you put results-based dependent in there, then you will not be true, respectful or honest. You will be manipulative.


I intend to fix my marriage and be true to myself. It's just hard have the intent w/out seeing results sometimes. I would die if i spent the next year working on my marriage just to see aboslutely no results. Well... not so much taht. It just kills me to know that I'm the only one trying. That I'm the only one that sees the value in the journey traveled so far and the only one that wants to build on that, and not forsake it to start a new one.

Back to the respect for respect...and what sounds like you saying no, you don't expect respect for your pleasing nature? You do because you can? You do because you choose? You do because you like the admiration and appreciation you have within yourself for the act?

I think you know I'll say this annoying statement "You can't be taken advantage of." Right? You had boundaries with helping others (better than saying "women") with their computer problems...wasn't entirely your job to do so...you did it to help them, the company (via productivity) and because you had the ability to do so. You did it when it was convenient, didn't get in the way of your regular duties, and if it did, when they put their jobs before yours, you did feel taken advantage of...because you didn't say your truth. "I respect you and know you will solve this issues. I am putting my job first, as are you."


I say women because I'm the only guy on the floor up until a week ago. Sorry. yeah, it's my fault for not speaking up.

"maybe I can help her like you are helping me?" Rule #1...never attempt to educate a WS. It is disrespectful and unproductive. You can't hand your WW anything to find her way out of the dark...like giving her a compass without a light. You have to be the light. Period. She finds her own way, choosing to see your light or not. You be the light anyway.

It's that choice that's killing me. :O) Sometimes I wonder why I should even be the light if she's not going to see it. I know that's backwards thinking. It's unproductive... I feel like I'm doing this for her just as much as i am for me though. I influenced her, so much so taht she doesn't love me right now but only as a friend. She tried to stop me, but i wasn't having any of it until the damage was done. She tried to be there for me, but needed me there for her also. Not only did I not accept her help, but I didn't respond to her need for me. Now she feels that she can't rely on me, can't trust me, can't depend on me.




Get this into your root belief system. Breaks your control freakish nature entirely. If you have to be the thing...well, then others don't, do they? No more external manipulation...just internal accountability. That is a stellar Plan A. Read what you can on the forum from ark^^ because you are educating yourself and she can show you how to be a lighthouse.



I'll check it out.

Know that your desire to educate can be overwhelming. Was for me and countless others...if their WS's would only come here! That overwhelming desire is coming from a belief you have that people can be fixed if they know more. That is an unreasonable belief. People choose what is to be fixed in them and then do it for them. Not for situations or others. The truth (reality) will set you free, Inferno...still will be your truth, your chosen beliefs, not THE truth. Respect others.


That's a fear for our marriage. I'm unsure that my wife believes taht she needs to be "fixed", opr cares to try if she does. That, or she believes that someone else can do the job for her.


I'm only writing these volumes to you from my respect that you asked. You desired. I questioned if you wanted answers or great tactics. Your choice. I do not search out the heathen and attempt to convert them. I'm right here. Can be found and led to...my part is being here.

Thanx for the assist. :O)

"I need to manage my feelings by analyzing them." Semantics are important to me because words are my beliefs. I believe you know that, so I am repeating something, rephrasing you, for my truth. "I need to analyze the information that my feelings are and accept that they are accurate with my beliefs." I recoil from "manage" because it is so close to manipulation, damage control, altering reality to me. I think you're right on. Your analytical nature has been outward, symbolizing a quest for truth, and abetting your run from it.

I'm trying. Looking at my posts, it seems I've made some progress in understanding. I just need to make some when trying to incorporate it in my every day life.


Welcome home.

It's good to be here. I just wish my W were here w/ me. I don't know how you did it. Maybe your S wasn't as difficult, or maybe the damage done wasn't as great? I just want this to work for both of us. Otherwise it's going to seem sort of like a hollow victory.

Good on the update...you decide your results from yesterday. Plan A involves doing things together, showing they are priority, which can for you be mutually accomplishing something, sharing a movie, dancing, archery, coffee shops, massages...the list is vast. Under Reacreational Companionship inventory. Worth looking over.

Saturday was good, maybe not as good as I thought though. I always seem to see results where there aren't any. I can't expect one good day to fix months/years of mistakes. I've got a long road ahead of me, provided she gives me reason to continue working on our marriage. otherwise, I don't think the road will be so long. My concern for my marriage seems to be the only major hinderance on my progress right now.


Remember your choice in defining your results--you give hugs or you steal them...you state you miss having her legs on your lap and what they symbolize...that you show your desire for intimacy by stating your thoughts and feelings and let go hers...then you'll have room to hear her own.


There's another concern. After every mistake, i wonder if it will be my last. I'm afraid taht when I hear her thoughts, they will be ones telling me she is moving on. I'm honestly afraid I've already heard it.

Your choice. All of them. Analyze yourself and you have your hands full. Analyze/guess/mindread/assume hers and you have pure distraction.

Fantasy.

LA

Thanx. Give me more when you can. I'll be looking forward to it. :O)

and a great one it is... <:O)

Ok. Good to know. I'll not ask her how she feels about me anymore. If she tells me I stink, or taht I'm a punk I'll tell her I love her.

She is lying. I don't think she's had a PA w/ this guy (though maybe you could tell me what you think about that, if you think it's ok for me to ask.) but she is not tellingme everything either. Turns out, when my sister went to her POE last night, my W told me that she came inside and the OM over heard what she had to say. Wht my W didn't tell me, that my Mom did was that they were outside talking when she got there and my W acted shocked as heck because she was unfamiliar w/ my sister's new vehicle. Is this info I should confront my WS w/? She's always told me that not saying anything is the same as lying to her... I wonder if she has been living up to her own standards? Hmmm...

I don't see where I offered to help cover up her A though, or made any promises I don't intend to keep? help.

I knew better then, but I know even better now.

It would be the askers. I want her to tell me what I want to hear, not the truth. I can't guarantee truth anything she says right now. That's a problem for me. Treating my W like a liar. Hard to swallow. Though, if i take everything she says w/ a grain of salt, maybe it'll be that much easier to focus on the present, instead of worrying about her "predicted" future.

Lonliness. Mostly. Some fear of the unknown. Yet, hope.

It is easier for me to think that she doesn't love me because she believes he is better than me, than it is to believe she doesn't love me because I made a mistake. It's easier to have competition that's not myself. I think I can beat him, but I don't think that I can undo what I did. Really the choice is hers, and i need to work on me regardless. She's made that abundantly clear too ironically enough. I'll stop. Sorry.

Trying to prove a point. Good grief. Sorry, I told you that I messed up yesterday. I need to focus. I don't expect instant results, but I keep wanting them anyway. See, this me focussing... 00

yeah, it was all bad. I knew it when I was having it. I should have left the room in the beginning, just got my breakfast and went from there. No more talks w/out her initiating them. Right? Listen and repeat.

is it a book? Grrrr... I have hard time coming by those. she has the car most days, the money and if I ask for it I'm expected to give a reason. Which I don't mind. I have nothing to hide. Though, she has been hiding things from me lately. Pay stubs, bills and stuff... and apparently info on her A w/ the OM.

I knew I was doing the DJ. I just feeling my way through it. Thought I was going to have a meltdown. I was in bad shape. I still hav work to do on controlling my feelings. Atleast i see the path I need to take. I'm glad for that.

yeah, actually. I don;t that being addicted to someone sounds reasonable though, if that's what you mean. Sounds more like obsession, possible stalking. Though I feel it. It feels just like I would think withdrawal would. I actually had the shakes yesterday. Kinda freaky.

Dumb idea. I was telling her what I thought she would want to hear in order to save myself from the "looming threat". They do. A major video store. Most everyone knows there. The manager, the assistant, some employees. My sister took care of some of that. The manager doesn't care, she's a BS and feels taht I've done my W wrong. The Assistant manager is friends w/ the OM, and I';m sure my W probably took care of that one w/ deceit. The other employees, are all high school and college students that are involved in shenanigans of their own. Her best friend knows, didn't agree w/ it for the longest time, but after finding out about my history of abuse is all for her getting rid of me. My family is the only group of people that seem to care, and her family is also on me for my history of abuse. Since she already didn't care for my family, it's been nothing but a hinderance fo them to know. I'm fighting a losing battle against an 18 OM w/ issues.

They've told her this, I've told her this. She "hates" my family to an extent, doesn't care about what i have to say and hers is not in the mood to care about my feelings right now so my turning to them is not favorable. When I've mentioned this to her, she uses statistics as an excuse to proceed. "It happens all the time and kids are fine." She doesn't see that our daughter is already having reactions to our marrital problems. She is being totally selfish. Plan A.. yeah. Not a great one to say the least. problem is I;ve been back and forth because I wasn't sure what I should be saying. My keeping my family at bay has more to do w/ insuring that the OM doesn't wind up w/ a dmaged car, or beat up in the street. My family has a history of getting even.

Yup. Been there and said that. A couple times atleast. she doesn't trust me right now, and either doesn't see taht changing or doesn't want to work on it. She's closed off to me. OM and best friend are her outlets. She was starting to wamr up to me, but yesterday chnged that. <:O(

So, I listen and repeat. What should my repsonse be when she says yes, that it's what she's been telling me all along. I can give her the other statemnt. WW, I love you. I have been angry, deceitful and emotionally closed off when you needed me. I fear not being here w/ you, am in a lot of pain from my part in our marriage, and I am committed to learning and changing so that our marriage can thrive."

My part in how i felt? I felt lonely and rejected because I love her, and miss the days when we could be together and normal. I felt rejected because I have all of this love to give her, but she doesn't want any part of it. I don't expect her to forgive me and want to work on this over night, the problem is I want her to anyway. I feel empty, she doesn't give me the kind of affection I'm used to. I feel like I'm alone when she is in the room, that part of me is missing. When she's gone, the pain eases because she's not there as a constant reminder.

A new dance eh... She won't leave, but will have me forced out. Which is worse for me. She has a choice to leave, I feel like I have none at all. It feels like she is literally stealing my family away from me. She's threatened having a PA at an opportune time for me walk in on if it were needed. I hate to day it, but I really resent her for that comment. I think she knows how much that bothers me, and may have no qualms about taking action if she were desperate enough. I'm sure the OM would oblige her too. I need to stop the DJ's too.

I'll try. No gurantees. Books are hard for me to get again, which is more reason for me to value my time here.

Denial. Need. Lonliness. definitely not common sense. I'll try harder than i aleready had been.

So I should tell her that I know she can do it, and that I would like to be a part of that. Be a contributor and not a dependent. That seems to me like I';m givingher an excuse to kick me to the curb though. I know you can do it, and since you want to I guess I have no reason to be here?

Mine. I didbn't wan ther to think tht I would push days like yesterday on her. make her feel trapped. She has issues w/ that. Is that wrong,or was it just my presentation?

No, I don't want AD's. I just want to know I can do this.
Sorry. Sarcasm.

I need to be honest w./ her all the time. not just when I can manage.

both of us. i like to write, she likes to receive.

Thanx. I'm trying to believe in me too. :O)

"If she tells me I stink, or taht I'm a punk I'll tell her I love her." Why? Why would you choose to hurt yourself that way? I don't understand what you mean here, I'm betting.

Why would you ask a liar for the truth, Inferno? Ask her about a PA/EA/Just friends/soulmates/strangers? I believe you've been reading all that a WS does during recovery--the actions to rebuild trust, including complete honesty...did you notice the "during recovery" stipulation?

"I love her, but she worries me. Her anger consumes her just as much as mine did me." Easier to focus on her than you? She is as complete, whole and wonderfully made as you are. Please stop judging. Please. Stop. Focus on what is within your control and stop distracting yourself with shinier objects. You have your own.

"I really love her and don't want to see her do anything she'll not be able to take back later out of anger. I don't want her to have any regrets because she couldn't get past this. I want us to have a happy life together like we planned all those years ago..."

Ohmygosh...she is having an A...is there anything more devastating than that? What do you really mean? Is this more of your projection? It will be up to you to allow her in your heart to take back stuff...so where is your control? She has full rights to regrets, remorse, slef-destruction and redemption--hands off, Inferno. Stop, please. You cover up your disrespect in nobility--it is like wrapping crap in pretty packaging...still crap. Stop it. Stop it. Please.

You feel alternatingly inferior to her and superior. You are equal. Period. Nothing you do or say will ever make you better...or worse. You are equal. Own it. Know it.

Think, sir, think. One side of your brain is whispering your pattern and routine to the other. One of your posts comes close to knowing and thinking from a new perspective and then you leap back into the old one. Call it progress if you will, but the DJs are painful to read.

Inferno...can you see how controlling this statement is?

"I just wonder if maybe I haven't pushed my feelings on her for so long that she'll never look at me the same again."

Until you know you are an abuser, you won't stop abusing. Your fear is growing your control issues through the roof. Did you write this post after my last one?

Must be me. I know it is me. Guess I need to take a break.

LA

"Not getting what you mean by projection? You mean, conveying my feelings to others? I've definitely been guilty of doing it unconciously. I rarely stopped to think, and am having a hard time learning how to. habits. instinct. reaction. I need some more work, though I've made some progress."

Projection is when you say to someone, "I hate that you don't recycle!" when it is you who doesn't recycle. Something that is gnawing at your insides which comes out in something driving you nuts in someone else. That is projection. See how you can use it as a tool? Like a light you bounce off others...in this case, do not bash someone else...notice what judgment comes to mind, what feeling rises up for notice, and look inside yourself first.

Ever have a discussion with someone about a pet peeve you have that others do? And the other kind of shrugs about yours, and then volunteers what really gets to them, and it isn't something that bothers you? It isn't that one is important and the other isn't...it is that you do not have in you what they dislike so intensely, or if you do it, you know you do it for a good purpose and admire it in others.

Projection shows us our chosen means of punishment, also. You don't give the silent treatment to someone who doesn't enjoy talking. You may feel punished when someone gives it to you...called withdrawal...but when you attempt to use it to punish, it may fail in your goal because they other person enjoys your silence?

My last post was about me, not so much you. I stand by what I say. I do not believe I said it with my truth out of compassion and love. I felt angry. That is about me...feeling inadequate, cryptic, mysterious, condescending and forcing my beliefs on others. Not about you. You're working diligently to see yourself for who you are and what you do...why you react, do and choose your life the way you do. You did not earn my anger in any way. No one does.

I projected.

"No. She intimidates me. When she makes threats, she follows through. I don't see how I'm going to save my marriage and eliminate the OM. I keep thinking that the latter is soemthing she'll have to do like she did previously."

I think I left out an important part about Plan A...it is a hero's journey. Requires knowing your fears and acting anyway. It is not for the response-based person. If you fear your choices based on the response you believe you will receive, then you will fail. I'm so sorry. It is from the sweat, grime and fortitude you didn't know you have (but you do) that you do Plan A. It is buying into the belief you can act bigger, stronger and endure more than you are capable of today. And you do. You just do. Focused on your goal of finding your power, your choices, your LBs and meeting ENs, you prove to yourself how strong, enduring and capable you really are.

It's a shock.

And a pleasant surprise. And God helps when you can't.

Exposure is frightening, terrifying...it is you stating the truth to others, asking for their support. These are the consequences of the APs, not you. You bear the super anger, acting out that often comes from exposure. You also bear the reward of knowing you acted in spite of your fear and own the consequences. Your WW is breaking apart your marriage. How will your exposure break it more?

I believe this is your truth:

"I want to save my marriage. I really do. I do want to feel better, but it doesn't have to be all at once right now." You will have to repeat that as a mantra to yourself to stay focused on what you want. I believe you.

"I could handle this situation so much better if i knew she wanted to work this out. Even a little." Why? It is your choice to love, to save the marriage, to change yourself...why does it depend on her? This is response-based choices. Why try if you won't succeed? Is that it? Do you have a crystal ball I'm not privy to? Have you come back from the future in a silver no-longer-in-production car?

"She just doesn't right now." Key words...sage words...right now. Last year, you didn't want to either, now you do.

"At all, if ever." You're in that silver car again. Stop going into the future. If you're coming from it, stay there. You're wrecking the present.

"From what I can see, and what she tells me anyway. She can't get past the lies, and already had trust issues before I messed up." Good point...she owns she has issues seperate from you, within herself.

"She doesn't love me the same, if at all anymore." They all say that. She is still present, in your home, speaking to you, living with her family, isn't she? She is struggling like you do, living from her feelings instead of using them as a guidepost to her beliefs.

"I don't see what I can give her that she isn't going to get from the A or anyone else." You stated it very well...OM is the fantasy and you are the reality; reality is what she's running from. However, reality is what we live in. Two-edge sword, don't you think? Plan A is to make reality the appealing, plausible, acceptable choice. Affairs aren't. Can't be.

"This is her chance to start over, to put the rotten things I did to her behind her. Who wouldn't jump on that oppotunity?" Lots of BS's here never jumped on that reality. In their souls they could still reach the unacceptable and not take it. Even in mine, serial cheater heart, I could feel that unacceptable choice I was making brush my face, shadow my walk and hover in my dreams.

"I'm trying anyway... I love her." Know this as your choice, independent of what you get or don't get in return.

"How did you do it?" I focused on myself and all the changes (massive, I believe) in my beliefs I had to make. One by one, I knocked them down and replaced them realistic, adult beliefs.

"Was your situation similar to mine?" I relate to you because you are betrayed, but you betrayed first. You gave yourself permission to hurt and hurt back. You lived from your feelings, your neediness and desired to be filled from the outside in. I looked at my H as the problem...if only he would fill me up. I've experienced depression most of my life and pointed at others as the cause of it. I was a pleaser/fixer/resenter. I believed I had to be good enough to love and stay loved. What do you think?

"I wish I knew wheter or not I was fighting a losing battle." I lived like that...predicting outcomes, worrying which course to take, trying to figure all the possible outcomes all the time to feel safe in the present by wanting to know the future. That doesn't have an ounce of reality in it. Wishful thinking, wanting the universe to work my way and give me peace.

"I just want a shred of evidence taht there's hope. I haven't found it yet." You choose to hope without evidence...it is called a decision of faith. If you choose to believe you know your goal and are willing to do whatever you can for as long as you can, you'll have faith that the right outcome, whatever it is, will be. Not what you want, how you want it, when you want it. Faith that going within, owning your power of choice, seeing with clear eyes, can only lead to a solid life, one you've been thirsting for.

Great to know you believe that staying in the house is your symbol of your commitment to staying in the marriage. What others are telling you is to ease your pain as they know it. You are owning your choice here. You are saying that we all own our choices. Yours is to stay and work on your marriage...your road to redemption in owning your choices, your past actions and your part. You are doing this for you and your desire. Stay strong in that. You are of sound mind...and are walking in your own shoes. Others aren't.

What does legally seperated mean in the state of New York? Have you read the restrictions, limitations and what the court means? Do you have a lawyer to explain your options and choices?

"I just don't how to deal w/ me having fixed me, but her moving on and leaving me w/ this hole in my heart that I could possibly never fill again." Here is where your fear obscures reality. If you change your beliefs to accept and understand reality, then you will know that you won't have a hole in your heart, that you are filled already, and that your love overflows outward. This will not depend on her fixing her (judgment). Focusing on you and your part gets you to where you understand yourself, love and accept your human self and know you are lovable, chosen and irreplaceable. No hole. No ripping. No failure.

It is a can't lose propisition.

"Rather thn me fixing me so I can get my marriage back, I need to fix me for me and as a result get my marriage back." Yes.

Her reasoning about her anger is right on. Did you read The Giver and The Taker here on MB? Might help you understand yourself, her and humans better.

"She is a very respectful person when not angry, but when she is the rules don't apply. It's almost as though she has two personalities that are aware of one another but exist on seperate levels."

She is one person with different sets of permissions (which come from her beliefs)...Permission denied to being unkind, disrespectful or unloving when being treated well. Permission granted to be unkind, disrespectful or unloving when she feels her boundaries have been crossed.

One person. This happens when your standards and boundaries are not the same...Her boundary is honesty and you lied. You crossed her boundary. Her standard is that she can lie when it is to aid others, not injure them. Her judgment and control. She doesn't enforce boundaries, she punishes others to keep them away from them. She believes she can protect herself from pain. She doesn't see her part in the pain, only others'. Internal conflict.

I know it well. Just because I didn't have standards and boundaries doesn't mean I didn't have them. Confusing, I know. Still true. We have them, react to them, but do not consciously own or choose them.

I think you know this well, also.

"I don't see how opposing her threats is going to help her to see the light in me, or fix our marriage." How did you get oppose from accept? I'm lost. She threatens to do something if you don't do something else...and you don't do it because you are pursuing your goal. You don't argue. You listen and repeat "I hear you are angry and resentful for the years I did not honor and cherish you or our marriage. I own that. I know I chose to do that and am choosing not to do that now."

Opposition? "I hear you believe you cannot get over your resentments and anger."

Where's the argument? The opposition? "I hear you want to leave. I know that is your choice and respect that. I am staying because I believe in our marriage and our family."

"It's like hitting a snapping dog w/ a newspaper to get it to stop. Why not give it a bone to distract it and earn it's trust?" Why not let the dog be angry, know it is angry?

Read "The Dance of Anger" and learn more about anger and what it means.

"Anger. Anger is a way of falsely controlling a situation you fear." I hear anger gives you the feeling of power, righteousness and is a threat to others. Is that close? Anger is...it can't control. Sounds like you feel controlled by anger...disapproval...disappointing...lead that all the way through for me, please.

In this paragraph on what you believe anger is, you mention fear seven times. Could it be you fear her fears?

"so she is going to do her best to make sure i can never do taht to her again." I believe no one in a wayward state of mind believes anyone can change because they are struggling and unable to control themselves. See how prevalent projection is? Your part is to acknowledge, in detail, where you know you were abusive and crossed her boundaries. Your part is say your belief is that you are willing to earn her trust by holding to your new code, being who you say you (and you have, Inf, all along), and not giving yourself permission to punish when you feel punished, harm when you feel harmed, or love only when you feel loved.

It is the way out. Not in your control. Hardest part is seeing the road of redemption brightly lit, finally, and someone saying, No, I won't give you that road.

You take it anyway...with or without the person. I was terrified that my WH's view that coming back to the marriage was only more pain and suffering. I believed that was him saying he wouldn't. Took three months, my changes, but he did. He chose. No guarantees. A year and half ago, I would have said that road was only through him. I know better now. When I stopped looking through him to get to me, I could walk that road myself. Still can. That is putting respect back into the marriage. Not as a threat to others, but a true promise to ourselves.

"guess it's not so much dumb it is just me wishing I hadn't said or done the thing that I'm judging myself by." You are trying to be perfect? You are depending on your actions or words to protect you from your judgment?

Can you say cart before the horse?

Stop judging. You are human. You react. You have reacted on your feelings, your perception and not on truth. Judge yourself human and leave it there. You do not earn non-judgment...you give it.

Stay aware of your pattern here: "I'm just amazed. Totally amazed. That I've been doing this for so long, that I think I can even overcome it. I really want this. The more I think about it, the more I think that my marriage is actually getting in the way of me doing this though. I wonder if she has actually ever seen me for me even when I was truly being me, or if she has just seen what she has wanted to see this whole time and will continue to do that. If she can't see me for me, then has she really ever loved me? I don't know. I love her."

You get an amazing insight into yourself and your life...and you immediately swerve off it, the possibilities, and lock onto her...questioning, probing...the bone distracting the angry dog.

Let the dog be angry. Do not manipulate it with a bone. Stop doing this to yourself. Know you have the choice, not the inability. You can choose to change you or not. Choice. Not dependent on her choices, thoughts, feelings or beliefs.

You can't feel loved for you when you've been dodging yourself all these years. You have only revealed the parts of you that you judge worthy of love and damned/hid the rest.

You won't know until you get there. You may love yourself, all parts, enough to shine. That may be better than manipulating love from others. You may end up standing in truth, feeling love from others, not because you shine, but because you are fully you...the you they have loved that you thought you hid. They may have accepted you but you couldn't feel it for not accepting yourself.

Wait and see. Work and shine. Let the future arrive in its own time.

"I don't know that my being transparent in my actions is going to be enough to restore her trust in me."

Do it anyway.

"I just see it being a near impossible task if she is so unwilling to try."

You choose to try anyway.

"I judge by my standards all the time. What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander though."

Exactly. Why hold others to your standards? They are yours.

"So,instead of saying "what you did was wrong" I should say "I didn't agree w/ that"?" Close. Very close. "I believe differently. I respect we believe differently."

"She's afraid I'll "beat" her for expressing certain feelings. To me, taht looks like she has something very bad to say about where we are headed in our relationship."

To me it says that she doesn't feel safe, feels judged and sentenced by her own thoughts and feelings. You make yourself self from judging her, condemning her. All you can do.

"To her, it could something totally different. I'm taking what she says and putting my own spin on it because of fears that i have. Though, I have to say that certain other comments she's made have had some influence on my perspective on that comment." Choose not to give yourself permission to spin, period. Hear. Listen. Repeat to confirm what you've heard. That is all.

"Good examples of what to sy when she's talkina bout the OM and me moving out would help me greatly." Tell me what she actually says and I will attempt to give you some practice examples.

"I would die if i spent the next year working on my marriage just to see aboslutely no results. Well... not so much taht. It just kills me to know that I'm the only one trying." See how you lied to yourself...and then caught yourself? You won't die if you spend an entire year working on knowing who you are, choosing your beliefs and owning your life. You will thrive. Those are the inherent results, based on no one but yourself.

You don't know you are the only one trying. Drop the judgment.

I believe I was misunderstood here: "Sorry. yeah, it's my fault for not speaking up." Did I say fault? Did I imply blame? Choice. Your choice to not speak up. Important difference. When you know you choose, no resentment.

"Sometimes I wonder why I should even be the light if she's not going to see it."

Be the light anyway.

"It's good to be here. I just wish my W were here w/ me. I don't know how you did it. Maybe your S wasn't as difficult, or maybe the damage done wasn't as great? I just want this to work for both of us. Otherwise it's going to seem sort of like a hollow victory."

I did it, honestly, by changing myself. My H has had life long intimacy issues, addictions, self-deceit and resentment issues. No better or worse than myself. Choose to believe we were in the same boat and recovered. It is my truth. Anyone can if we can. He left our home and our marriage, didn't want to suffer any more; even when he recommitted to the marriage, he said I would not be considered by him for a very long time. Sound familiar at all?

He loves and trusts me. He chooses to and enjoys his choice. I changed. I did me. I did not make him do anything. I couldn't. I stopped believing I could.

"After every mistake, i wonder if it will be my last. I'm afraid taht when I hear her thoughts, they will be ones telling me she is moving on. I'm honestly afraid I've already heard it." This is you punishing yourself with fear; stop it. Has she moved on? Is the divorce final? Are the custody schedules worked out, assets liquidated or split? Did I miss where the seperate living arrangements had been made and a court date?

I don't think so. Reality is you're not here or there. Limbo. Your fears may be attempting to put you one place or the other because limbo is more terrifying. Change your perception.
------------------
"Dumb idea. I was telling her what I thought she would want to hear in order to save myself from the "looming threat". You violated your own standard here. You lied. You did not tell her your truth but what you judged that she wanted to hear.

Know that when you're in pain, you judge rampantly.

Major video store? Corporate? Let the manager's supervisor know, the vice president, human resources...find the spot and expose there. Do not reason away the results...exposing isn't about getting others to do what you want them to--it is making the choice to act for help in saving your marriage.

"What should my repsonse be when she says yes, that it's what she's been telling me all along."

"I hear you now when before I only heard what I expected or shut out your pain because I felt responsible for it."

"Good to know." This is an answer when you have repeated and she confirms you got it correctly.

I am asking you to do for yourself. "I felt lonely and rejected because I love her, and miss the days when we could be together and normal." Acknowledge the good in your marriage. Know it was real.

"I felt rejected because I have all of this love to give her, but she doesn't want any part of it." Give your love to yourself and accept it.

"I don't expect her to forgive me and want to work on this over night, the problem is I want her to anyway. I feel empty, she doesn't give me the kind of affection I'm used to." What does affection represent to you? Hug yourself, hold your own hand, demonstrate you are willing to give yourself what you need.

"I feel like I'm alone when she is in the room, that part of me is missing." Codependency. You are whole. Know it. Believe it.

"When she's gone, the pain eases because she's not there as a constant reminder." Your perception gives you these feelings. Change your perception. She is as human as you are. She does not possess the power to fill you, complete you or reject you with her presence. Her presence is affection, attention and acceptance in itself. Know this. Be present for yourself. You matter.

Doing for yourself will not eliminate your pain. It will reduce it greatly, gain you clarity on the extent of what you believe are your needs (all of it from her) and what you can give to yourself.

LA

"The A could be reality if she got rid of me. He's single, youthful, willing and ready. How would that not be turning fantasy into a reality?" Affair relationships fail. They are founded in betrayal and deceit; false intimacy. They fail to the tune of 95% or something close to it. They don't deal with reality...he's 18! Please, utilize your choice to not buy into her beliefs.

Cherish yourself more than that. All the planning, plotting, escaping in the world doesn't solve anything...you take your problems with you.

"I'll have to do this by myself later."

"I hear you are choosing to do that by yourself later."

"when you're gone..."

"I hear you are choosing to view your life without me."

"it's not fair for me to keep you around if i have feelings for so and so..."

"I hear you are choosing not to love me. And that you believe you are keeping me around. I hear you believe that is unfair of you to choose to do this."

"he makes me feel like I can be myself"

"I hear you saying that he has the power to make you feel something."

"I don't know if i have feelings for him or not"

"I hear you wondering if you have true feelings for him or if you do not."

She told me later taht she thought it was pretty funny when our daughter brought that up.

"I hear you believe my pain is funny to you."
"I hear you believe that exposing our daughter to your affair is funny."

"I've learned that sarcasm is abuse."

More of it.

"Stop, that's abusive." Say this firmly, calmly. If it continues, leave the room.

These may seem dry, lacking force or affect. Guess what...none of them are manipulative. None at all. They are what you hear, how you hear it in your filter and these responses do not allow you to argue, change or bend her to your will or belief. You desire respect. Give it first. Keep giving it, because you desire to be a respectful person.

You have contributed to her preferred state of fantasy because you have chosen to communicate from manipulation. "Fine, your fear that I will beat you won't stop me from doing it!" sort of thing is telling her that her feelings and beliefs are invalid. They aren't. You lied. Your truth "I feel shame that my actions have given you the belief that I will beat you ever again, for any reason. I hear your fear."

"if she decides to go and have kids w/ someone else before coming around (which she has stated "will be the case")..."

"I hear you are thinking about giving our daughter half brothers or half sisters, is that correct?"

"because it was something I denied her." I hear you believe that you bring children into the world to appease your spouse. Is that correct? Read the Policy of Joint Agreement...you didn't deny her. Do nothing, especially creating new life in an unstable marriage, unless you both enthusiastically agree on it.

"I am paying child support right now and have a visitation schedule and she has Sole Custody of our daughter. Right now, we are living together against the terms of our legal seperation. my mailing address change to my Mom's was all it took to have the papwerwork processed. The only thing left to do is for her to tell me to get a vehicle, pack my things and go."

So what I hear is that you two have agreed to live a lie. Get a lawyer, borrow from your family, who will draw up notice that you are BOTH in violation of the agreement, with her consent, that you wish to revoke your voluntary agreement to divorce and that you want joint custody. Reason this through thoroughly...your WW is living in fantasy, you are participating in that fantasy and are struggling with a plan to create a better reality. You wonder why?

You say you were distraught and did not read the terms of the agreement. Begin documenting the time you spend with DD and the time your wife does. A daily journal. Exposing OM to DD is horrific. Document the Christmas incident.

Write up a statement wishing to withdraw your consent to divorce/legally seperate...do this after your first counseling session where you state that you have decided to pursue all avenues to mend and save your marriage. Does New York make adultery grounds for divorce?

Turn this around, Inf...is she holding the abuse card? Past arrests for dv?

"I don't dare do it." Not about daring, but choice. Live in reality, Inf. You are choosing not to expose to their employer.

"The Supervisors Manager lives w/ the supervisor, they are both females and and are in a "relationship" of their own." This has no relevance.

"So I can't go there." You are choosing not to expose.

"If I were to expose she and the OM to the company, she would do something to ruin our marriage." Like what? HAVE AN AFFAIR? FILE FOR LEGAL SEPARATION? She's done that, Inf. You're living it. Stop participating in lies.

Is a marriage that can be saved by lies worth saving?

Is a marriage that can be saved by manipulation worth having?

Is the you that you are forcing yourself to become so you do not have to be alone worth living with?

Can you shine when you cloak yourself in dark fear, claiming you have no choice?

"She would screw me over in a heart beat. No morals, no compassion, no remorse." This is what she is doing right now. Exactly. To the tee. Exposing will not change what she is doing. It will make her actions and choices a reality in daylight.

"So I should tell her taht I acknowledge that she knows our marriage won't work?"

"I hear you believe our marriage won't work."

Yeah. That is what you hear and what she says she believes.

"I hear you want to leave me because you can only forsee our marriage not working and me not changing, is that correct?"

"I'll try." To try is to lie. (Standard truth in therapy.)

Either you choose to do it or you don't.

Most important:

"This would be easier if she weren't there trying to control me. Her trying to control me is what triggered alot of my actions in the first place.
It sets off my defenses and makes me want to react to shield myself."

Why do you feel you must shield yourself from something she can't do? Your WW cannot spew acid from her mouth and eat off your face that way. She can't. God didn't make her that way. Neither can she control you. At all. Ever. Nothing to shield yourself from her, but you.

You are fully capable of spewing acid all over your heart and mind, and you are doing it...saying it is her. Please stop. You can only control you. She can only control her.

She makes her choices. You make your choices. Then she makes her choices...look at reality, Inf.

You must decide to choose to be vulnerable...nothing to fear but fear itself. Honestly. You can pretend to defend...you can't really do it. Because she can't do anything to you, short of physical abuse. You will feel pain either way...from yourself or her choices.

To defend is to pretend...that you're to blame, being attacked...being controlled. What you feel isn't real.

Your choices are.

LA

Hey, I remember the competition/replacement feeling from OW. I know. It came from in me, not reality. That is what I'm aiming for. I fed my fear by feeding my belief in her being a reality. She was a fantasy. Not real. The more you focus on him, the more your mind will believe he is a real threat. He's really not.

"It just concerns me that the idea behind reapeating is to get them to take a look at what they are saying."

Intent: To learn to listen well, without your filters messing up what you here.

Result: Others know they are heard, have an opportunity to correct, and to hear their own statements.

So, no, the idea behind repeating isn't what you said. Burrow into that logical side with some relief for yourself.

What you are left to say is nothing when she's speaking, other than repeating. If she asks, you answer truthfully with "I" statements. If she doesn't, you don't speak. Good eye contact, benign facial expressions...safe, present and attentive without demand.

Intent: You speak when you do those random truths of yours. Scary stuff, but the more you do it, practice it, adhere to it, the more truth you will hear from yourself. You'll learn a lot. You will be acting love.

Result: You will feel less helpless, defenseless, powerless. You will build your self-esteem one sentence at a time.


"that was pretty harsh" That is a DJ...you are telling her that her statement was harsh...not that you felt/believe it to be harsh.

By all means stick to what fits your style. Please don't lovebust to feel comfortable or authentic. These words were not my style at all. Like rocks in my mouth. I did it anyway. They were the only truthful, respectful, non-judgmental words I had. I had to use them. Over time, I got comfortable...read my other threads...even my 20-year-old at dinner Sunday night was wondering aloud after a statement if it was a DJ. He's learning about all the verbal abuse he was subjected to in our home growing up...which led him to be comfortable with an abusive gf for almost three years.

Go ahead and choose wearing the silk suit over holey bvd's because no one else can see but you. You matter, but I can't make you matter.

"Anything text book and she's going to look at me like I'm fruitloops." She may not be comfortable with it and you cannot accomodate her by lying...you have already nearly accommodated her out of the marriage.

Work this through in your head, Inf...

"That's harsh."
"No it isn't."
"Yes it is."

Or

"I've learned sarcasm is abusive."

Where's the no/yes thingie in that? Am I missing something?

Which one has judgment of others? Which one is respectful?

Now your big one..."Where is repeating going to get me?"

Heck, why are you in that house? What is it going to get you? Why love? What is it going to get you?

Repeating is the first step of communication. Next step, when you're really good at it, you begin repeating with an eye to your filter. "I heard you say..." more like a summary. You'd be surprised how intimate sharing your filter is...there are exercises, practice runs and they are wonderful. Bad communication and attitudes got you to this point in your life. What will get you out of it?

Tell me how it feels to have half-siblings? See, you are standing at the beginning of your parental history and at the end of others'. I have three sons, Inf...they are all half-brothers. On of them has a half-sister. I would choose to have them all be full brothers, had I known then what I know now. Changing adult partners, replacing them, changes your children's lives. You know this. The children are innocent of cause and totally affected by it. You were looking at your WW's spoken musing to have children elsewhere as a deal breaker for you. I wanted to reintroduce your daughter back into the picture.

"I want to do this stuff. For real. It's going to destroy my marriage though because she is so vindictive" "It" I take to mean as your choices to not live a lie, will NOT destroy your marriage. HER CHOICES WILL. You are choosing reality, dedication to your marriage and to living to your code (if you choose). Those choices cannot cause the death of a marriage. No. No. No.

Her choices may change. Her ponderings about the future may just be payback for her the resentments she's created in herself, blaming you. You don't know. You are eliminating your true choices by denying reality and distorting it. You fear getting a lawyer to invalidate the seperation agreement as written will kill your marriage. No, it won't. It will stop the fantasy you are contributing to. Your marriage can't be killed for a full year, true? Divorce isn't until the judge bangs the gavel.

You could speed things up with her adultery, though, couldn't you? Would that get you joint custody? Would that get you any benefits?

"She views my wanting Joint Custody as a threat." You have said this before...two questions: How do you view joint custody? Why did she say she demanded Sole Custody?

"i wouldn't ttempt them unless i was very desperate and saw no way to proceed other than to destroy our relationship forever." You are being controlling, distorting truth and owning what isn't yours. I respect your choice. I just can't help you continue to manipulate yourself and others because you fear the unknown.

"No. So, you are telling me that my marriage isn't worth saving?" No. I am telling you that INTENT MATTERS.

You wanna stay a response-based-control-freak whose filter distorts until he hears what he expects? Or do you want to choose your life, know your intent, let go the results and live on solid reality?

Your choice.

Reread my questions. I asked you, saying what you WON'T do to save your marriage because you will be destroying it with truth, exposure, love and respect...and you made it out like I didn't think your marriage was worth saving.

You defeat me.

You defeat yourself.

Intent matters. Not taking an action is taking an action and has consequences. You are seeing some of them now. There are more, many more...there are consequences for words not being said, lies by omission and manipulation through intent.

You're living that life. It is entanglement, unmanageable and an invitation to chaos. I respect your choices. I know you know you are choosing your life, even when you don't choose.

Don't lose your job because you're answering our marathon posts. Find your choices...they are splayed out...you are not limited to home, no books, allowed the vehicle, etc. You are choosing to see it that way.

There are city buses, your friends, your family...who very much want to contribute from love and don't know how. Give them a way. Ask your Mom for books...list all you find on the threads here.

As your sister for rides to the library to log onto the web. Let your family in and don't worry about your WW's reaction to them. Ask that they treat you and everyone respectfully. Speak their truth without defining or judgment. Can be done. Practice.

Sorry I go off when you drop back...I suspected you wanted someone here (many do) to just get permission from an "expert" to ditch and run. I fear that. If you want that, please be truthful with me. If you don't, then put it out of your mind and YOU determine that your marriage is worth every molecule you have to save it. Your choice.

LA

I view Joint Custody as us being accepting of one another as the parents to our DD. She wants me out of her life, feels threatned/controlled by me. So, maybe Joint Custody to her represents me having influence on her life? She didn't say she wanted it at the timeof signing though. She did a long time ago, but offered me Joint at the time of signing. I offered her Sole because it was my understanding taht she couldn't leave state w/out my permission through a court hearing. Her family all lives down South. If she needed to leave for an extended amount of time because of a family illness or an emergency here, I wanted her to be able to go w/out hesitation. that's when i thought she was being reasonable. I never saw this coming. It hit me like a truck.

Sorry, I made a few errors

Inf,

"I say bad things w/ good intentions."

I see many times in your post what I read as, "Don't be mad at me, I'm trying. I screwed up, said it wrong. I didn't use the right words." Please stop. My opinion of you does not matter...and I am committed to not judging you. I'm still learning how to convey my truth, also. You don't just do it overnight, and I do not expect you to do so.

I am not pointing out that you are saying things wrong. I am trying to show you what your belief is behind your statements. I am asking you to change your belief, not act/be perfect!

I will not ditch and run, Inf. You can say, "I'm going to do this my way or die trying!" and I'll be here. Commenting. LOL Feeling your pain and watching your anger. My choice. You can't earn my presence...you don't have to do what I say, be good, to have my presence. You matter. You just do. As you are.

Getting to your beliefs which you act from isn't a snap. It is difficult to communicate about what we believe because we act from hidden ones...beliefs are like ghosts, tough to pin down and see clearly. I'm attempting to point out ghosts to you and say, "See?" and you hearing me demanding that you see what you don't see, but you'd better see it otherwise I'm outta here. Hmm. That would sound like the way you view your WW right now.

I get it.

Pretend I'm an Optometrist...When I say "See?", I'm really saying, "With these words, is it better? Worse? Better? Worse?" as far as your comprehension of your beliefs.

You spill out on the page...that's the first necessary part of self-honesty. The careful re-examination of those statements...not that they weren't the right or wrong ones...will tell you about what you belief...behind the words.

Shadowy corner stuff, Inf. Not for the faint of heart.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Uh oh. Looking back on our past, and I mean far back, has really got me thinking. Not any good thoughts either.

I was the fantasy. The A. Technically. I think?

We've gotten this far though. I don't see why it would have to end. It started as something it shouldn't have, but turned into something semi-good. Why can't it be that much better? I don't know. Was it all doomed from the start? Should I crank up my concern for where her A is headed? I don't know. What I do know is that I'm not going through this again...

"I'm afraid of you'll judge me because I am judging me. Didn't really see that until now." Takes repetition to get it and to keep it, Inf. You're doing fine.

That's the pure logic in your system...everyone has it..."If I can judge myself, then I am allowed to judge others." Very strict to balance, btw.

Can we agree on a more honest response when you get something, or I do, that we missed before? Rather than "Oops. :O)" LOL "Got it." "Good to know."

Oops has mistake in it...can't help but think of a two-year-old, tiny finger to his lip, looking up with big eyes and saying, "Uh oh"...which isn't the case. Don't apologize for what you didn't know. You didn't know. Getting it, knowing it, owning it does matter.

This isn't nit-pickin'...this is how we teach ourselves that our beliefs have changed...we change our choice of words/actions, over and over again. Otherwise? The belief doesn't change.

"I think what happens is that I am so used to trying to gain control, that I say things that signify that I want it even when I don't." Great truth here, Inf. You are thinking in a new way and continue to behave in the old one. Normal. Reasonable. The more you see your automatic reactions and slow them down, don't react to them, the better you will teach yourself you REALLY REALLY want to change the belief causing those.

What is that inner belief that makes you want to gain control?

Break it down here. Work it through like I did in your previous posts (stabbing at them, muttering them in print...doesn't have to be right or perfect...they are just your beliefs.)

See where the exercises don't stop? Listen and repeat, break down my beliefs...if you practice the routines, they become part ritual and will truly change your belief...not just your mind, for the moment.

Time for a Godsmack (I love those)...if I am not here for you, then you believe you will have to do this on your own. That is a fantasy. If I die tomorrow, there will be others here for you, with messages from their lives and God.

And God remains. You might hear my exact words from a stranger at the supermarket. Won't be me, but the message will be God's. How it works. You might see a family in a car at a stoplight and have an ephiphany as you watch their interaction unfold.

God will get you. God is there...only you shut him out by losing your focus...he remains. Alpha and Omega, sir...he's the reason we're here for you. You can believe you shut him out, but remains. He's been giving you messages your whole life to help you...not so you don't make a mess. Messages to help you know you were okay to begin with. Still are. Your choices to control others hurt him...upsets the equality...really doesn't, but it ripples around his world. Let go and let God, dude. You can do this.

God's a reality.

Way to go nailing that feeling to a belief..."If I don't have someone caring for me, I am left to my own devices. I don't trust my decisions, I make messes, I am a mess, I live the best way I know how and my choices aren't good enough. I fear my own choices." Run through your beliefs and find the one you made as a 4-year-old, very close to your "oops". Love that kid...it wasn't him. He chose to believe he was the oops instead of gravity or human influence. What he believed isn't valid anymore...he still needs that hug from you, that acceptance, to undo the belief inside of you.

Thank you for the relationship history background. Now you realize your WW's pattern or proclivity...what about yours?

You were an OM. That's interesting. How do you feel about that?

And you judged your gf's through assumptions...did not pursue their truth. You stayed safer in your assumptions. Good to know.

Pursuing their truth is called desiring intimacy...that you would ask for that knowledge in a safe, non-judgmental manner and not assume until you chose to believe their truth for them or not. This would be great to know about yourself if that is what you believe...that intimacy is scary...and find out why it is scary to you.

This might lead you to understand why your anger seemingly left and your fears rose up with such force right now. All information about yourself is good information, in my book.

I hear all your questions that have no answers right now. You are doing the best you can with what you know about yourself...and struggling to learn more really fast.

Experience tells me that you will go through this again and again until you get your lessons, change those beliefs, and know your power. IMO.

Easy for me to accept that for you, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

correction

I'm usually too busy singing and drumming at stop lights to noticve anything like taht and i avoid the Supermarket like the plague. :OD I get what you mean. :O) I used to and now see plenty of good things in the world. part of what made me miserable before was taht I didn't see it happening for me. Then I started only seeing the bad things in the world, and the "good" things in me which weren't really good at all.

Ah... kissing the feet. Is that what you meant by judging them? I didn't feel that way w/ any of them at first. it was only as the relationship progressed tath i felt taht way. They all gave me a reaon to feel like i couldn't be me at one point or another.

Experience tells me that you will go through this again and again until you get your lessons, change those beliefs, and know your power. IMO.

i could see taht, if I stay in this relationship. I may not be the way i was before, but i may still feel like I can't truly be me. part of me still feels like that's a comprimise I'm willing to make. Another part of me is sad that i would choose to do that and wants to be free.

I love her for who she is. maybe it's because she feels like she can't talk to me about anything but the weather right now, is treating me like dirt, and is pushing me away that I'm wondering if I'm making the right choice by staying. When I think about us as a family, especially my daughter, i want to stay. When i think about staying to be w/ my W, I think about where our relationship is right now and it doesn't look so appealing. I really do love her. I'm finding it hard to look at the good thins right now. I'm really living in the present right now. Looking at her, in the present, the way she is now.... is kind of turning me off. What do you think? I'm not angry w/ her, but I'm not happy w/ her either. I really miss our DD right now. <:O)

I do feel jealousy toward her and the OM right now too. I'm not angry, but it's making me care less. I kind of feel violated and just want to get past that. This is kind of awkward. I know I love her alot. I'm just not feeling it right now.