My husband and I talked last night and I let him know that the next time he gives me the silent treatment I will consider it his way of telling me that he doesn't want me anymore. I am tired of playing games. He's had 20 yrs to pull his crap and now I want it to stop. Some may find this selfish of me, but I disagree. I gave in and gave in and gave in for way too long. I don't have time to play childish games with him. He knows how much damage this has caused and if he now chooses to continue, then that's his decision. Thanks again for all the replies. I know you all mean well, but enough is enough. As many of you said, this is something I should have done long ago.

PodPer, Ultimatuns and defining his behaviours are not good ways to start any kind of healing. He has had this habit for so long that there may be times that he may not realize that he is doing it. Rather than lowering the boom, tell him what you think he is doing and how it bothers you. Getting him out of this mode takes time and patience. Most men are silent to some degree and he may not even know how to approach you. At least give it a try. If you do dump him and find an engaging talkative fellow, It is pretty much a given that he will, over time become more and more like your husband.

PodPerson,<BR>I wish you the best, but I believe you are setting yourself up for failure.<P>It is almost like failure is what you want...and you are using this time that could be used for healing and growing closer, (maybe for the first time in a long time) as an excuse to exit.<P>If you do not try to heal your marriage with love in your heart, in your words and in your actions, it is highly doubtful that your H will either.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Faith and Fighter,<P>Okay, you're right. I AM setting myself up for failure by allowing this to continue. Remember, I ALREADY had patience, 20 years of it, and it got us NOWHERE. How much longer does anyone think I should be patient? A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year??? This is ridiculous! He has been told and SHOWN how destructive his behavior is, and yet he continues. I ended my affair as soon as the counselor showed me that we couldn't rebuild while my affair was continuing. I didn't even blink even though it hurt saying goodbye to the OM. And now I am being told that my husband needs TIME? What if I had said I needed time to be with OM? That would have gone over here like a ton of bricks I bet.<P>What's with the double standard? We "betrayers" are told to end our affairs IMMEDIATELY, and yet it sounds like just because my husband is the "betrayed," I'm supposed to give him TIME. I don't like that double standard at all. Not one bit.

Geez, Pod Per. because what you are doing is wrong. And just because your husband is doing wrong, does not give you licence to continue on that path. <BR>One of the things that you do not see yet is that the affair is also hurting you. To continue it will damage you more than your husband. <BR>In terms of time, take each day as it comes. There will be good days and there will be bad days. If you put a time constraint on it you put a constraint on recovery.<BR>20 years, you just threw them out the window. You and your husband are both going to have to look at this relationship in a new light. So take off the boxing gloves. There is a lot of work to be done and there really is no time for whining.<P>Quote "He has been told and SHOWN how destructive his behavior is, and yet he continues." <BR>Is this a left-handed way of blaming him for the affair? That is not going to go very far either.<P>No double standard. A single standard: the preservation of the marriage. THe sooner you get the spectre of the OM out, the better.

Fighter,<P>The OM is out of the picture, and I'm NOT still having the affair, so you're wrong I am no longer doing wrong. My husband is the one who is CONTINUING his destructive behavior. Everything you wrote should be written to him, but he's been told and shown this by the counselor. You know what's really funny? In my first post people kept telling me that I should have left my husband before having an affair. And now I'm being told I should be "preserving" the marriage. Which one is it?

Work on the marriage. People here should not be telling you to leave a marriage. This is marriagebuilders. <BR>I was speaking in general terms in the first pat of my previous reply. There should be no quid pro quo for problems in the marrige. Some take longer to work out than others. Just because you are no longer with the OM does not mean that your husband must wake up in the morning and be a new man.<BR>Now that the problem that you brought to the marriage is gone that gives the both of you to work on these remaining problems...

PodPerson,<P>Two wrongs never make a right. Is your H right to continue the silent treatment or any other negative behavior patterns? Of course not. Does it mean he will never learn? Perhaps? How long should you wait? If you are commited to the marriage, if you are seeing at least some forward motion, then as long as it takes.<P>Just the fact that he is seeing a counselor sounds like he is at least trying.<P>Habits are hard to break...especially long standing ones.<P>Do not let his behavior influence yours. You determine what you need to do to to move forward with recovery.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi fighter,<BR>No, I don't believe people are constrained to the same behavior forever, or else there would absolutely be no hope for me, a "betrayer." However, I do believe that no amount of wishing, hoping, praying, etc will get anyone to change. All podperson can do is change herself. I was in a very,very low sad place when I cheated. I was forced to come to the conclusion that my H never really loved me, that I was an accessory, an interesting plaything, but wasn't allowed to have goals and needs of my own. I didn't get there all by myself. In my frustration and sadness, I chose the wrong way to cope. If I had it to do over again, I would have left first. After I confessed, my husband treated me with such cruelty, which further proved my original assumption. In a later post you recommend to podperson to stay and undo some of the damage she has done. What about the damage her husband has done, and is continuing? I did that with my ex. The last time I talked to him, he apologized for the way he treated me. So what. He still got a divorce, he still doesn't have to do a darn thing to change. He just got someone to beat up for over a year. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have confessed either. I would have just left. plain and simple. <P>One more thing. Podperson may have thrown her 20 yrs. out the window in one "big" act. But people like my ex (and maybe her H too) threw it out in teaspoonfuls every single day. <P>Podperson,<BR>Let's separate behavior from feelings. We can all agree that cheating behavior was inappropriate and destructive. Your feelings that your husband is unresponsive and uncaring may still be absolutely true. You having these feelings and expressing them (in a constructive way, not by cheating) is not the same as justifying an affair. Jeez, I hate it when I hear this stuff. Like anything in the form of complaints about the marriage from the betrayer are an excuse.

Fighter,<P>I've been married for over 22 years. I think my husband has had plenty of time to make himself into a proper spouse. You act like the infidelity is the beginning of our marriage, it's not. It's darn near the end if he doesn't get his act together real quick. He's had plenty of time to behave badly. The infidelity could be looked at as a wake up call, but he does need to wake up and wake up soon because I do not have time to baby him any longer. Now that I know there IS love out there for me, why should I wait around with someone who is incapable of giving me that love? <P>Faith,<P>I have lived my life trying to be a good person. I know many here will write me off as a slut because I cheated. But I was faithful for 21 years. I was faithful to a man who mistreated me daily, verbally and emotionally abused me regularly. Here is something else I'm embarrassed to admit but before my affair, I hadn't had a sexual orgasm (without masturbation that is) for almost 15 years! Why? Because my husband refused to do oral and that is the only way I can have one. No, he'd just get his own self gratification and that was it. He'd roll over and go to sleep.<P>I only mention that because I really don't think some of you get it. When is it time for me to get some satisfaction out of life? Does preserving the marriage mean I have to let go of my own chance for happiness? I want that happiness to be WITH my husband, at least I do want that, but I can't continue to put up with b.s. that is only going to make me more and more resentful all over again. I can't do this anymore. Doesn't he see?

Hi, Student,<BR> glad to see you back in full swing. You are one of the people that have shown that people are not constrained by past behaviour and can change. Just as you changed, so can PodPer's husband. Unfortunately, You're Ex is a person that is constrained. <BR>As I have expressed many times before, I hoped the your husband would come around but he did not. You hung in there and gave it your best and then some. At least there is no doubt in your mind that you did the right thing. Had you left and not at least tried do you think you would be better off today? You would probably be walking around with a shadow of doubt hanging over you. All I am asking POdPer to do is give it the same chance and time that you did. She has expressed many doubts about leaving and at this early point, she needs to work it for as long as she thinks is appropriate.<BR>Unfortunatly for your EX, he did not grow from this ordeal and is constrained by his anger. PodPer's H is going to counselling and is showing some desire to repair.<P>Student, do not regret the time you spent. One consolation is that you got to see him how he truly is and this kind of behaviour may have shown through even if you did not have an affair. <P>It is sometimes difficult to seperate the complaints from the excuses. My interpretation; my error.

Podperson -<P>I just responded on your other thread <BR>with some things I could have put here. <BR>I won't repeat them, but they apply.<P>A couple of other things, though.....<P>Comparing your ending of the affair with <BR>the continuing actions of H is not <BR>really a double standard. Yes, they are <BR>both a case of you each doing something <BR>wrong...but they are not equal or <BR>vaguely similar. Apples and Oranges..<P>I say that because you chose an escape <BR>route which involved bringing in another <BR>person and adding to the current <BR>problems with dumping more on them. Bad <BR>move but understandably human....<P>Your H chose to deny your feelings and <BR>neglect them and your efforts of <BR>communicating needed changes..also a bad <BR>move, but communicationally challenged <BR>human....<P>You were able to communicate (with us <BR>and others I'm sure) WHY you felt the <BR>need to make your choice...<P>Has your H ever explained WHY he has <BR>chosen to act the way he does? Does he <BR>even know? Is it a learned behavior? <BR>You say it's been like this all <BR>along...even when you married? <P>My main point with the apples/oranges <BR>reference is that you made a conscious <BR>choice to act in a certain manner and <BR>because it was conscious and short term <BR>- you were able to end the behavior <BR>quickly and "fairly" easily...sounds <BR>like your H is mired in a long term <BR>behavioral problem that requires much <BR>more probing into the why of....which <BR>will take much longer because he first <BR>has to acknowledge, recognize and then <BR>change....<P>As far as what was said to you on here <BR>about leaving before affair and now <BR>being told to stay and work on it....<P>We have heard more of your situation and <BR>are trying to encourage you to try to <BR>work things out. You have a spouse that <BR>will at least try counseling and you <BR>have found MB tools and knowledge to <BR>help with an attempt at rebuilding. <P>A lot of us are not so fortunate and <BR>have chosen to learn and try WITHOUT ANY <BR>encouragement or show of interest from <BR>our spouses. Mine in fact is divorcing <BR>me...but I will remain true to my <BR>feelings and beliefs that this marriage <BR>could be fine if and or when he wants it <BR>to!! If he doesn't than what have I <BR>lost by being here.....nothing. I have <BR>gained!!!<P>I am stronger, wiser and have a better <BR>understanding of what is needed to keep <BR>a relationship together. This is growth <BR>for me!! I am fortunate!!<P>My H is not as fortunate as I....He will <BR>continue on the self-destructive path he <BR>has chosen and will not have any <BR>understanding of the emotions and <BR>helplessness he is experiencing in <BR>regards to the marriage. He has not <BR>grown!!!! His patterns will repeat!! <P>I love him and don't want that for him, <BR>so I keep trying to reach him.....for <BR>better or worse!!!!<P>HUGS and Strength,<P>Sheba <BR> <P><BR>

Hi again fighter,<BR>It was really nice of you to respond to me. You know, it is really hard not to look back at my efforts with regret. Not only did he kick me when I was down, he dug the pit, threw me in, and tossed the dirt over me. You remember how I used to be when I was going through the worst of it. My family and cat were the only things that kept me, literally, from killing myself. I just don't want to see podperson get to that point before she leaves, and I certainly don't see the need for any betrayer to nail themselves to the cross to express remorse or take responsibility. Just like there is a Plan B for betrayed, there ought to be a Plan B for remorseful, concerned, reformed betrayers. Thank you again for your concern. <P>Podperson,<BR>fighter was right that it appears that your husband is taking the first step, he is going to counseling. Sheba mentioned that his behavior is something that has developed over many years, and could take some time to change. Only you can decide whether you have any patience remaining. I still would encourage you to start making a life for yourself that won't hinge on your husband's immediate progress. There are probably a few areas you could improve on as well. Stay focused on what you can do to improve yourself. Hopefully your H will want to join you.

Student, you hung in there and endured the worst of it. You fought hard to save your marriage. With the regret you should remember that you did everything you could to put it back together and he was unwilling to give you that chance. So as you turn your back on these unhappy times, there is no doubt that the marriage is over. No second guessing.<BR>Like you, I and many others were nailed to a cross by people that we thought cared about us. There has to be a point where we say "Even though the veiw is pretty good from up here, I've had about enough of this" and get on with life. Podper's H problem may not be because he does not care, it could very well be that he is just socially inept. I just would like her to give it that chance before it is too late.<BR>On a personal note your posts had given me insight as to what was going on in my W head. What I was taking as anger was really mortified remorse. With some discussion and coaxing I was able to get her to tell me what she was thinking. The chaos of the recovery was being hampered by miscommunications. <BR>Anyhow, how id the Ph.d program coming? Are you liking Cal? <BR>I started a new job 3 wks ago and am loving it.

Hey fighter,<BR>I'm glad my posts helped you two. REALLY glad you two are still working at it. Boy, you have a great memory. Wanna take my qualifiers for me? It was probably good to get a new job after all you've been through, huh? Kind of a fresh start. Glad things are going so well for you!!<P>Actually, I was only in CA for a week for a sailing lesson. I joined the local sailing club, and go out quite frequently on a nearby lake. Great stuff to do with friends. PhD studies are hell right now. I'm studying for qualifiers, which is the major hazing for nerds like me. I get tested on three subjects, each with a two hour written exam and a half hour oral exam. I get two tries to pass them, or else I am O-U-T. Kinda stressful.

Student, you helped more than you know. It was frustrating during the recovery where she just completely shut down. It drove me nuts because she would do that from time to time in our marriage. I took it personally, that I was not good enough to open up to. When I read your posts having to do with you guilt over the whole ordeal I thought that it could apply to her. It was a fit. We began talking again. Right solution at the right time. This whole forum has been a godsend to me since I really had no one to talk to about it on a daily basis. I personally, know of no man that has gone through what I went through and recovered the marriage. The only solution I would have gotten from friends or relatives would be to move out and divorce. Besides, for men, this humiliation does not lend itself to the kind of support that women get. People assume it is the guys’ fault. So there is nowhere but here, where we can remain anonymous.<P>Sorry, I'm not that good at academics. I've always disliked the classroom and only endured to get the degree and then put as much distance between us as possible. Everything significant I have ever learned has been self-taught by being a "Discriminating consumer of scholarship”.<BR>I'll take the qualifiers for you but do you really want that kind of setback?<BR>I was glad to get a new start. Too many people knew too much. Its' nice to be somewhere where nobody knows anything about your history.<BR>Hazing?! After the turmoil that we've been through, I'm bulletproof when it comes to that. Anybody that thinks they can put any smoke on me gets a full measure of wrath. It probably does not work well in academia.<BR>Good luck.<BR>