"like there was some big secret between them that I wasn't privy to when he was around. Then she would tell me that she considered it lying when I kept things from her."

This is textbook in a direspectful marriage...believing that what one does, so must the other. Tit for Tat, Even Stephen...I don't know of an adult name for it.

So, she was being disrespectful by doing that? I kind of missed something in the translation there. For a minute it sounded like I was the one being disrespectful. If taht's the case, let me know. I don't think it was me, butif it was I could see why you say that.I think?

Recognition that you were not and are now striving to be intimate with your wife is key here. From you to you. You weren't safe to confide in (judgment) nor was your wife. You can't demand someone be intimate with you...like shouting at a fire not to burn...might have worked once, when you were young, when it blew out a candle...the belief remains you can, yet experience will show you repeatedly that you cannot.

I wanted her to confide in me, but at the same time I understand why she couldn't/doesn't. It just didn't seem right to me that she call me a liar for not telling her things when she wasn't giving me the full story.

I've been thinking. You know the things that she says she cn't say unless we go to counseling and I'm out of the house. I wonder if one of them isn't that she wanted to leave me a long time ago but was afraid to? I'm curious. anyway. You know me, I'm obsessed w/ making this work and love her alot.

Influence yes, control not possible.

Gotcha.

You are overwhelmed, sitting and crying, feeling so much all at once. Cull it out, Inf. Cull out the old from the new. Your WW has chosen in your marriage to be the mother not the wife at times...her choice. You can't make her. That's her DJ, see? Her choice in how she sees you...not yours.

This didn't happen until after Alana was born. After we had Alana, Jill stayed home for four years. I worked my butt off. Jill got miserable at one point and threatened to leave me here if I didn't move out of state w/ her. We couldn't afford it, and I knew it. We were too dependant on family to get by at the time. She put on a huge amount of weight, and became a Germ-a-phobe? She carried hand sanitizer everywhere and freaked out all the time. It took her getting this job to get over it. We've had problem, after problem, after problem, after problem. It's no wonder she wants to ditch me for a fresh start. <:O(

Parenting within a marriage is really common...stems from us working out our childhood issues with the partner we choose...messy stuff. I did this with my H...mothering meant love. Until I got that I mothered everyone, part of my control fantasy, I didn't get how destructive and disrespectful it was. Can't be taught. Must be learned.

She's learned it now and apparently that might be part of the reason she pity's me and wants me gone. I'm not part of her "adult world", but her 18 year old OM is? It actually looks like she's trying to live out the life she missed in her late teens early twenties. I've wanted some of that recently too, but I'm not about to give up the family for it. ??? I don't know.

"If I don't I feel like there's something there that's keeping me from loving her completely." Your belief that love is a choice is critical here. She does not earn or own your love. It is your choice. You choosing it fully, not based on her actions or personality, is what is in your own way. You are looking at how you feel not what you believe. Because you believe humans earn love, not as a choice, you are not feeling full love because you must judge her worthy.

Does it take everyone this long to learn this stuff? Hmm... that is how I view love sometimes though. I've never thought of ti as bad either. Crazy.

Yucky cycle. Put it down and back away, 'k? No power or ownership in loving...all results dependent loving. Very sad and destructive. Unworkable...no matter how hard you attempt to make it work. Would involve controlling another person to keep them lovable, wouldn't it?

Yeah. No fun in that.

If you base your love off feelings instead of choice, then resentment will be a block, anger, frustration, unmet expectations, and acceptance can't have a part in that kind of belief, can it?

No, and that's how I've treated the whole thing sometimes. Deep down i know I really love her, but on a nother level i let feelings put that aside for a time.

"If I forgive her it indicates to me that she made a mistake that she may regret. I look at her regret as a symbol that depicts her need for me." If you forgive because you want power of control, you are again betraying yourself. She doesn't believe she is making mistakes, tearing up the marriage anymore than you did when you had your A...you both felt entitled...that each other were making them make these damaging choices.

Yeah, i get that now. the above is how I used to feel.

Your WW is a whole person, just like you. She doesn't need you to complete her. You don't need her to complete you. That's reality. Love is a choice...not based on needing, wishing, desiring or fantasizing. Not real love. However, if you base your love on how much you're needed, then you're earning love and will not know you are whole, complete and marvelously made. There's no need in that. There's choice, not need.

I'm sitting here thinking... What if I'm making the wrong choice? Do I really know her? Will I ever? Did she ever really know me? if not, and she sees the real me, will she love me?

Hmm.... *sigh*

Just thinking.

Just had a thought...more about her DJ to you being a mother instead of a wife...she picked an 18-year-old to have an A with...does this help show you how she believes love is based on need? Seperate from who you are, this is her and her beliefs right now.

She's picked up an immature 18 year old becuase he fulfills a need for her right now. One I wasn't giving her... Is taht what you mean? She has said herself that the age thing has been a concern for her too. You think she's after him partially because he fulfills her need to fill the Mommy role? or her need to escape it?

". I don't dare ask her forgiveness right now. I'm afraid she'll deny it, or give it but not take me back. If she can forgive me, but not take me back then to me that'll be a sign that she can move on and won't ever want to be w/ me again." Let's really work on getting this...it is a core value of yours to choose what to do and not to do based on outcome, which can't be good, because you are being abjectly disrespectful and judgmental in your decision process.

yeah, I know. I told you I put too much effort into the marriage and not enough in myself. I didn't mean to say "afraid she'd deny it". That was habit talking. I meant to say i don't think she's ready to give it. Just from talking to her. I haven't exactly been owning my part in all of this yet anyway. No point in asking until I understand exactly what part I play in all of this. I think I get it, but want to make sure of ti first.

You don't dare? You don't CHOOSE to ask for what you want. Asking for forgiveness is not based on need. It is what you do from your code when you own what you did was injuruous to others. Includes amends...for YOUR redemption. Your redemption isn't based on her forgiveness of you...it is based on you taking the steps to amend. Not outcome.

see above post? i think i grapsed that for the most part? <:O)

You know this.

Know this harder, deeper, repeat it and get it through...MANIPULATION IS A CONTROL FANTASY. It isn't real. It's a computer video game, living from feelings, living reactively and an A. Not real. Not close to real.

maybe i should stay away from fantasy for a while... games and all.

Make this choice...change your belief...why? Because anything else will get more of what you've got...tumbling in life, reactive, confused, looking for a fix outside of you...because you won't acknowledge your core truth.

I'm trying. Old habits are still lingering.

You did great in being honest with yourself about forgiveness. Use it. Use that knowledge to say, what the heck? I'm trying to fix my feelings with feelings...like patching up a dam with wet cement...how's that working for you?

I'm not so much trying as it is just happening I think. it's not working for me at all.

"Shielding mysefl from reality perhaps?"

Reality shields...absolutely...protecting yourself from what is sounds reasonable. There are three realities...Freedom, Responsibility and Love. Just those three. End of story. Please protect yourself from them at all costs. Make that choice.

was taht sarcasm? Please protect myself against them? Just checking.

Please stop looking for signs on what to do...that's external to you, also. Living externally is choosing chaos.
Choosing to try to control the external is making chaos.

I always do that. the minute something happens w/ us, i run to someone else for answers because i feel like I have all the wrong ones. it's because I know that i react and it's not getting me anywhere. my relationship track record w/ this is terrible.

Don't add to the crap.

No kidding.

"she told me that I should be able to understand why she is doing the things she is." Trigger on any "should" you hear. It is a HUGE DJ...know this. She is not asking you to understand why she is doing the things she is...she asking you to accept and approve. Know the difference.

Good to know! I've given her responses she was looking fro after she's thown shoulds my way. that, or what I do is tell her that i understand the reasons for her doing it, but on't approve of the action. that seems counter productive too though? or am I just trying to be too disagreeable so taht she doesn't have any slack to hang me w/?

"I feel vindicative and want you to feel the pain I experienced." That is understanding. That's her belief and desire.

that's been mine at times too. I understand taht one.

"You should understand why I'm destroying the marriage for the same reasons you did." That's asking you to accept and approve given your past actions. That's like telling a man who served his prison time that he should understand why it is okay for his son to be put away now, too. Doesn't add up does it?

When she throws those my way, I tell her that I don't agree w/ what I did and don't agree w/ her actions either. i usually get an I don't care after taht, followed by an I'm doing what I want for me. I get that last one more times than i can count. Got an uto-response she can't counter for that?

This "should" stems from you both, mutually, equally, contributing to a horrible state of the marriage pre-As. Her pain must be felt by you and vice versa. You must express your emotions but not own them. She must control you as hard as you control her. Living in false beliefs is very painful, full of addictions and distractions. It is a rollercoaster ride of reactivity...toxic. You can hang on in it, but you aren't living your life. You're living through others.

I think I'm choosing not to be me fully right now because I see our marriage, if it lasts, as continuing to be controlling and disrespectufl because she probably won't make an attempt to help herself. Not healthy.

In this relationship, there is a symbol of fairness...you hurt me, I hurt you. I punish you and you punish me. No boundaries, nothing healthy and no conscious choice. No respect for seperate and equal.

She chooses not to allow me to "punish her for unfairness" sometimes, but if i don't take my punishment it's followed by more. I don't follow up because i see the futility in it. She is more persistant I guess.

Your pain is not a reason to continue you this. It is your choice, now with full knowledge, that your response in your last post was just this--back to reactive, in my opinion. Your choice.

You think my last post was reactive? I'll have to go back and read it. It irritates me that I keep slipping back so far.

"I do not accept nor approve of what you are doing, WW. I love and accept you, not your choices. I learned from my own experience and now own that I was destroying our marriage, the family I treasure and stopped contact with OW entirely."

Strong truth, I statements and no attacks. No judgment. It is about what you stating your truth.

i have to remeber this stuff. stress and lack of sleep have been taking their toll lately.

I wouldn't advise saying it until it IS your truth, though.

yeah. No sense in lying. I'll only abuse the statement or use some sort of conrol method, or DJ to follow it up.

More "signs" you're coming from your child beliefs, not your adult ones..." Nothing is ever black and white." Not true.

Black is black.

White is white.

Oh. OK. Didn't see that.

Nothing, anything, everything...go hand in hand with always, never, ever, forever, etc.

That was an absolute statement above. Why am I picking on you? First, know humans have this in them...beliefs are cumulative...you pick them up like pennies throughout your life and hold onto them...some are old, unreasonable, make no sense with what you now know, yet you continue to hold them and live from them. Get to know your pennies.

I didn't even believe taht one. it just seemed to make sense according to what you said at the time. it looked more like a belief I thought i needed to pick up.

Her jealousy is about her, not you. Previously to your A, her accusations was about her own judgments and beliefs. Had nothing to do with your actions or intention. You wanted it to be about you, within your control, and you wanted it to be fair. Back to the old fair thing...however, she may have been projecting, also, onto you what she feared for herself. She was inappropriate in her head, felt you were, too. We often treat our spouses less openly than others...why? Because we fear losing our partners, not people on the fringe of our lives.

Losing her was a big issue for me throughout my meltdown. So much so it was part of the reason i picked up OW. i thought if I hid it well enough, WW wouldn't find out and couldn't leave me because i was acting crazy.We see how that one worked out for me. I did alot of nonsensical things back then. Still do. :O)

"She wasn't herself around me." Her choice, not yours. You weren't safe to be around, true. One factor only. Many others were in her...her fears, judgments, resentments, DJs...in her. You have your own. They are seperate.

There's me thinking my judgmentl attitude controlled her O&H policy.

Being yourself is a choice you make. No one can make it for you. Choosing intimacy is scary, terrifying and the only way to really live. You can be safe if you're unknown and you can physically function...you just can't grow. Won't make you safe from pain, judgment or anything else...just blocks you off from you. You're not worth knowing is what is whispered in us every time we don't show our true selves.

that is what I want. To be known. I want to choose to tell her everything about me. I don't necessrily expect her to accept my choices, but just know they are my own and accpet me. I'm going to write her taht letter, but I think she will judge me for it.


"She wouldn't love you if she knew the real you."
"You can't be loved for being you. You must be better than you."


Whispering beliefs...catch them...know them...replace them.

Would she love me for me, being as judgmental as she is of me right now?

"It was just me, not wanting to choose at all. wanting to be babied, have my hand held and told it would be ok. "I'm fragile, less than myself, don't break me." Good truth to uncover. "I believe I am fragile." Adult truth or child one?

Child. I can't be broken by anyone person mentally unless i choose it.

When you believe you don't want to choose, that's a signal that you're engaging in fantasy, correct? Choice is. Not choosing IS choosing. Choice is one of the three realities...Freedom to choose or not...both are choices.

yeah. She asked me several times if i wanted to go through w/ the seperation. I never answered each time. she made the choice for me. We see ath her choice was. taht kind of bothers me some. I'm assuming she made her choices based on her feelings about my actions.

"True. I need to let her know that my having blamed her for not helping me in the way I needed it was unreasonable. She did what she knew, and was being true to herself." One more here...blame doesn't belong in marriage. In life. It is participation in fantasy. There is ownership and our part...we are in everything and never the whole. Your part, not your blame. Now...She did what she chose to do and you were unreasonable to use her as your resentment post and entitlement program. She was seperate from your issue.

She's been blaming me for the OM, saying I drove her to him. it was her choice. I tell her that I accept my part in this, that I was disrespectful to our marriage, but she made the choice to have anything to do w/ OM. She accepts the blame occasionally, but then says that she is doing for her and noone else right now. She's back and forth.

She was doing to you what you were doing to her. When you stopped, she didn't. How'd that happen? Unworkable systems don't perform as planned. They never performed...only if you believed they did.

yeah, life isn't fair and isn't about getting even.

I hear you say that you AO and DJ...so stop talking. Do one week of only listening and repeating...tell her you must really get set in your mind, that you have given yourself permission to DJ and AO and you want to change those permissions. Stay present, focused on anything she says, but do not talk for one week. Listen and repeat. This is acting out your respect and commitment to your new beliefs.

That'll make her happy. Not. She already doesn't talk to me much unless i initiate the conversation. She's got BFF and OM, talking to me is an option she's almost not choosing right now. I still wish i could come up w/ a repeat that i can make my own. I want to repeat... I just don't see it working for me.

Won't work if you don't have them in you, in the mix, though.

That's okay.

I want this to work. I keep thinking that it takes two for this to work though. she's not in a copperative mood lately. I tend not to hear alot of what she says, lately she blows up because of it. She says it once, if i ask again I get a snotty "nothing".

You already know that you have not been a victim, just chosen to see yourself as one...to throw away your power and use blame like a weapon. Whatever you choose from here on out is yours...because that got in there...didn't replace anything or make you operate differently...but you know this one thing that you didn't know before.

I'm not a victim. being around her tends to thorw me bck into old habits. it's like being an alcholic working on recovery and then being forced to go to a keg party. She is what i was and I habitually react.

As for your hatred of OM...we've been over this. He isn't real. He is anyone and everyone. Fantasies, not reality. You won't expose, so you by your choice, you would rather shake your fist at a fantasy. Telling your truth is too hard for you. Listening to your own truth is too much. This is how living like a victim gets you atrophied, helpless, languishing and ill prepared for simple truths.

I still don't get this part. i was thinking about exposing. decided not to right now. Why expose if she is only gojng to choose to run to OM out of venegnece? It's like telling on the school bully, he's gonna beat you up for it if he's not afraid of the consequences.

You are choosing to believe he is real, that your WW's feelings are real. During the week you don't talk, when you listen and repeat, you take, "You are child!" and repeating, "I hear you believe I'm childish." "I'm not doing anything you didn't do." "I hear you believe you are not doing anything that I didn't do." Over and over again...show your truth in repeating, see her choices, hand them back...hand DJs back as beliefs and choices...they are.

I'm still unclear on the repeating thing. She doesn't see what she says as DJ's... and if tell her i feel they are she doesn't seem to care. it seems to me that repeating only serves to confirm what she thinks she already knows. I'm not sure she cares if i listen right now. though, she ahs nmade rude comments about me talking to everyone but her still lately. I don't know. If I didn't know that i make my own choices, i'd say she has me brainwashed.

I have a headache and am dog tired. didn't sleep at all last night. i don't mean to sound disagreeable. I'm having a hard time thinking straight right now. i need R&R. <:O)

One week solid of this would be a real commitment to your self. Might break the barrier you've erected. Might not. Up to you.

I'll do it. Dagnabit. :O) My problem is going to be knowing what to say after she responds to my repeat. or shouldn't i say anything? She won't like that. She expects me to say something. it';s that whole ommcunication thing. If I explain to her what I';m trying to do, she's going to be disrespectful and taunt me for it. Then she probably won't talk tome at all. I know how she is. This is textbook stuff for her. I'll do it anyway.

gotta go print homework.

see you tomorrow. :O)

thanx. :O)
LA

You gave me a spit-take in my coffee with your last post...for two reasons...your wit about company assets and the length in MS Word...reduce the font, man! lol!

You're sucking the fun out of my "sticking it to the man"... >:OD

How can I have an opinion on what your WW is feeling and thinking? How can you? All we have is what she says...and WS aren't called in the fog for nothing. That is why I repeatedly say, hand back their words and do not translate.

I know. I'm just trying to stay one step ahead of the game. This whole thing is like a chess game to her. She is manipulative, coniving, secretive, strategic, cunning, devious. I won't compete on her level. It just seems hateful to me.

This has just been going on for months and months. I'm starting to think that I'll be dead before this whole issue is resolved one way or another. I'm just feeling impatient today. It's the warm weather. I want to get out of here and enjoy myself. I'd like to go take my Mom's Harley out for a spin, but I'm stuck here at work. Bummer.

Then I go and do that for AdrianC...oh well. I misuse my assets, also.

I see how it is. >:O)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Time to not do the yelling and screaming. Seriously. You said your WW yelled at DD. You can't stop her from doing it. You can enforce your boundaries. "I realize you feel very angry this morning. I"m asking you to not choose to raise your voice to either DD or myself." You can say the same to your DD...she'll get it.

Yeah. WW yells at DD, then DD yells at both of us. Then WW gets on my butt about keeping her iner control. I try to reason w/ DD, but w/ her attitude lately she isn't having it. Then i start yelling. <:O( I've been working on it.

Calmly, lovingly. You don't stand there to enforce, you continue on. If it continues, "Your choice to continue raising your voice to communicate your anger is unacceptable to me. Please tell me what you feel without raising your voice." Whisper this to her.

Roger, roger.

Confirming to your DD that her fears, anger, frustration are all real will help with the fits. Had your mother said, "Yeah, Inf...I really see where you're angry about your father's choices...I see you're really sad. You miss him...I'm scared, too, Inf...I hear you." How would you have felt? To be assured your emotions weren't lies, wrong or inappropriate and to have directed you to your power of choice on needing to tell not show them? How different would you have been with this permission, support and assurance you weren't nuts or bad?

My Mom was too busy crying her eyes out in the bathroom to be saying things like that. She even admitted herself to the psych ward at the hospital at one point (which i didn't remember). we had a rough go at it. We were all young. I knew I wasn't bad, but my mom was a wreck. between that, my Dad being a hrad a$$ and school I got to being a pleaser.

God's giving you a do-over for your DD. How cool is that? Stop looking at WW and guessing it all...dig within you for what you need today. Stay aware. Be affectionate, considerate (as you were this morning), choose your actions and not reactions...respectful.

A do-over for DD? i can appreciate that... until WW kicks me out and ruins all my effort. >:OP

You know this.

When she accuses you of doing what she is doing, you can say, "I know what I did and I will not choose to do that anymore. I am happy to be with you today, though it might not be reflected in my face. I'm thinking a lot."

Good response. :O) thanx. :O)

Simple statements of truth. No lying, covering, back away or hiding anything. No judgment of her accusations, no reactions. Hers are hers. Yours are yours.

That's what I need. To be able to come up w/ those instead of judgments and controlling statements.

How's the love letter coming? You might get one sentence a night done, along with your journal. What about one for your DD? Get her her own paper journal where she could put pictures, drawn or cut from magazines, about her thoughts and feelings? Something you could do together without really doing it for each other?

It's coming. It would have come alot further, but WW has been home the last several nights. Last night I took DD out for walk w/ the neighbor woman and her two kids. Alana is friends w/ one of them and I had never had the opp. to meet either of the parents before. We got back around 7pm. Good time. I'm trying to be more social. I found a list in one of WW's "secret" notebooks. It was a list of changes to herself she wanted to make. One of them was "be more social". I figured I could use a touch up in that dept. too. One of the others was "love life" that one scared me to death, but I left it alone. it was a list written a while ago, but during all of this hullabaloo. I'd do the journal thing w/ DD, but WW would be furious. She is trying to hide this whole thing from DD, while allowing her to be around OM like the other day. WW is as **** as a box of rox. Sorry. I'm not editing that though. It was a small vent. Won't happen again.

One thought, might not apply, but when you went back in and kissed WW with an ILY and left...this assures you that you do, that you accept she's upset and that you're not choosing the old react, withdraw as punishment cycle. The only thing it doesn't do is really acknowledge to her that you understand she's upset. Really great progress, just a thought.

I chose not to acknowledge her being upset because i knew her beef was partially w/ me and I didn't have time for her to rant at me. She was shoving me out the door 'cuz i was running behind (and 'cuz she was mad) as it was. My acknowledging her anger always seems to make it worse.


Understanding is not approval or justification. It is acknowledging you get she's angry or frustrated (naming it) and respect that you know it is hers. Validation.

She has a hard time dealing w/ other peoples feelings and actions if they aren't similar to her own. I have this condition that causes me to gag like crazy every morning. I think DD has it too. WW gets angry sometimes when DD is freaking out because of possible condition symptoms. She can't understand, thinks it's in DD's head and it angers her. It's like her getting frustrated w/ me because I don't always hear her, an she has to repeat alot. Audiologist says I'm fine, but my hearing isn't great. I think it's selctive hearing myself. Like that's real... WW gets angry.

See how to enforce your boundaries it takes being O&H and demonstrating where the lines are? What's on her property and what's on yours? Not just taking actions to enforce when crossed, but supporting respect and acceptance when they are not?

it's a territory dispute w/ us. WW sets up her boundaries around herself, then she tries to set them up around me while she's firing guided missles at mine.

LA

A yank-back moment for Inf...

"I'm just trying to stay one step ahead of the game." Tell me again. I forgot. How's that workin' for ya?

Splendidly. >:OP I know.

I just talked to WW a few minutes ago. We talked for about 5-10 minutwes. I had called to ask about her day, left her a message earlier. In the middle of the talk, she said that we need to make a decision soon. I had no comment. She said she's just been irritated lately. She sounded irritated the whole time i was talking to her. I can't believe this is happeneing sometimes. Things were rolling right along, and then one day they just weren't anymore. Sometimes it feels like it's happeneing to someone else. Know what I mean Vern?

You sound really down...I see where you know this, getting a bit of Spring fever, wanting results faster, and are just having a day of it.

Okay.

A little. I've been bored lately. I haven't done anything for me since i don't know when. Going to my Mom's tonight for my Nephew's birthday should be a nice relief. I might even try to take the bike out for a quick spin if the weather keeps permitting, and the daylight stays available. I think her constant decrease in attitude, increased OM incidences, and my want to take this new and improved attitude out for a spin is taking it's toll. I always want to do more when the weather is warm too. Don't want to spend the year going back and forth w/ her.

I know you know...I didn't see where you said, "I do not choose to do the journal idea with DD because my WW has control of me." I heard it, anyway.

Got me there.

So, I'll ask again. Do you care about DD? Do you think that keeping WW from her own anger (which is impossible) or taking steps to teach your DD that she has feelings, they are important, and they are hers, is more important?

I'll work w/ DD, but I don't want evidence of it lying around. WW already gives me a hard time as it is. I really don't need the added stress. I'm finding that I'm starting to get worn down. I'll definitely mke a solid effort though.

I'm being inflamatory for a reason. Your do-over isn't a one time thing...may come on again and again in different ways, when you don't take the opportunity the first time. Regret is worse, in my book, than remorse. It is for what you DIDN'T do...you have to own inaction and it feels harder, deeper and more irreparable than what you did do.

Oh, don't get me started on regret. I've got that in spades. <:O)

I wonder how many of those are stored up you, once your justification machine runs out of ink? No more free passes printed, and all the previous reasons you DIDN'T do something fall apart in your own eyes, and you have to make amends in the present because you lied to yourself.

i can't count the number of times I bailed on time w/ the WW and DD because i was ticked off, or depressed.

Tears down you, DD, your WW and everyone you meet. You can't be trusted to face your fear for others or yourself. That would be the definition of a betrayer...a wayward...someone who won't do what's best because it is scary, didn't like possible outcomes and tried to control someone else through omission, lack of action.

yeah, if it's a good way to crap up a marriage I've done it. It's no wonder things are the way they are. I'd hate me too.

You can't have a respectful life if you don't choose to live that way.

I know.

You know this. Your daughter is worth it. Your daughter is depending on an adult showing her the way. That would be you. Being a lighthouse isn't just to show your WW the way home, but your DD as well.

sometimes i think I'm more Will-o-Wisp than lighthouse. Leading people into the swamps to their untimely deaths. j/k. I've made alot of progress w/ DD. been spending alot of quality time w/ her, trying to take a different approach to talking w/ her. That's going down the tubes w/ her attitude change since she knows we are not getting along.

It was what your mother couldn't do...didn't know...was overwhelmed because she took your father's leaving as a huge statement about her--rejection of her essence, herself; erased and discarded. She didn't know it wasn't about her, but about him. When she did know, would have been good to tell her kids, doncha think? Now you can see why divorce gives kids this belief, also--they feel discarded, not worth loving and last place in the life of someone they can't help but love. Rough stuff.

yeah, my WW always said a few things. "Love will always fix everything". "I never want to get divorced, I don't want Alana to grow up w/out both of her parents." "We have a great marriage, we've been together for so long when noone thought we would make it." Now... it's "I don't think love can fix everything anymore." my response was, just because it isn't wroking for you right now doesn't mean it's not working for the rest of us. "Alana will be fine, everyone else does this". and "Everyone always told me I'd end up leaving you."

it's amazing how she went from one extreme to the next. I always believed her when she said those things. None of that has changed for me. ?

Now I know why you lean towards changing and then caving, changing and then caving...you've got your wounded inner child calling the shots and then retreating, back and forth. This is your adult life, Inf...requires your adult decisions from adult beliefs. Time to take the hand of your own inner child and get straight with him that you won't leave him, ever; that he is whole, complete and lovable. Always has been and always will be...by you. That you're not gonna throw him away anymore. You're gonna stand by him, confirm his feelings but not act from them; validate his existence, significance and raise him like the great parent you are. You're gonna be strict and understanding. Then you won't be going back and forth, from getting it to kicking it, back and forth.

This whole process is like killing two birds w/ one stone. Time for me to be me and grow up all a the same time. My pleaser isn't a Mr. Pleaser. He's a young kid clinging to the past because that was the only time he was truly happy. I'm ok w/ the idea of my dad having left, and have no unresolved issues from childhood. the issues i have are w/ what has transpired over the last ten years w/ WW. Alot of crap happened over the last ten years. It's no wonder she's trying to escape. that's one of the reasons why I want to get this over w/. I want to start acutally living my life, not just existing.

have a good weekend. :O) Wish me luck. I hate weekends right now. 1 1/2 days of facing the music. I appreciate the time w/ the family, and enjoy it as much as possible. It's just that WW has that much more time to push my buttons.

TTY Monday. :O)

LA

Important...
First, read this:

"I can't believe this is happeneing sometimes. Things were rolling right along, and then one day they just weren't anymore. Sometimes it feels like it's happeneing to someone else. Know what I mean Vern? "

Then this:
"I've been bored lately. I haven't done anything for me since i don't know when."

Huge red flag...resentment. You are lying to yourself for a payoff that you miss. Know it. Own it. You are creating resentment, feeling sacrificial when YOU ARE NOT.

Sometimes I'll be lying next to her when I wake up and actually forget that all of this is happening.

I've been spending 24-7 quality time w/ WW and DD in case she up and decides it's time for me to leave one day. I'm doing all of this for me, but haven't been doing any of the other things I enjoy. I'm experiencing alot of mixed emotions right now.

The resentment is my own. It's for me. When I resent her, it's because I resent me. <:O(

Know you do this. Know that you do not believe that changing your life, owning your beliefs, your crap, all the massive pain you've inflicted on others...is not for you. You consider it a sacrifice. Know this. This is why you chose to have an affair, were entitled to go outside your marriage and you are tired of the consequences of your affair because they are all your WW's fault.

I'm tired in general. I'm mentally worn to a frazzle. All this not sleeping, WW needling me, wondering about the outcome, deep thinking, is wearing me down. I own the consequences in all of this. I messed up. Knew what I was doing was going to be trouble later. Running away seemed like the only solution... Not dealing w/ any of it. I needed a vacation from life. Had pressure coming in from every side. Felt like a trapped aninal that was trying to gnaw it's leg off. I know how WW feels right now, only I didn't have feelings for anyone else and didn't think things would ever get this far, nor did I really want them to deep down. I was going all fruit loops. I'd take it all back if I could. Wouldn't do any of it over again if given the chance. I don't blame WW, unless I'm letting all those crappy emotions rule my reason. It usually comes down to the OM. I get totally PO'ed about him and then start blaming her for all of this. I had a dream the other night. Dreamt that he came to the house, and I ran out to the front yard and tried to strangle him. he got away, came back later and that time I tried to break his neck. Not good. I didbn't sleep well that night. She's been throwing OM in my face alot lately. Apparently it's been an attempt to get me angry enough to either leave her alone, or move out so she can have space. WW is getting herself caught up in a hole bunch of drama she doesn't need right now. I'll explain in a bit.


Now...self-care is different. You will not feel sacrificial...you stay aware of all that you do for yourself, for others, and what you do for others that delights you, gives you an immediate payoff seperate and not dependent on their reaction.

I feel good about what I'm doing. Until I think about OM. He seems to be becoming an increasingly large problem for me right now, one that I'm having a hard time putting aside.

If you aren't trying to save your marriage for you, then who are you doing it for?

Me.

Remind me again.

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and a lack of respect. That is the recipe for all self-destruction, divorce, wars, etc. And affairs. Three essential ingredients. Guard yourself against them. Know their payoffs and the temporary better you feel will be the same amount of pain you'll suffer for it...and make the innocent suffer, too.

That's something I've been concerned about. I'm finding myself thinking about doing awful rotten things to OM and WW should they ever get together. I seem to be treating him (moreso than her...) as an obstacle to my goal. One that I want to destroy if I can't overcome it. He just sets me off. I know. Their (WW and OM) choice, not just his. I shouldn't be thinking this way, but having him thrown in my face all the time, DD talking about him alot more, and WW seeing him alot more lately "coincidentally" has been getting under my skin.

Like your DD. Part of her pain is from your A, too.

I know. She's partially aware of what we both have done. WW and I have both made comments in regards to both A's unintentionally w/in earshot of DD.

Find your joy...find out why your real self...the one you abandoned and betrayed long time ago...is worth hating when it didn't do anything...and your false self, your constant makeover self did...may you have a good time tonight, have the blessed chance to hug your DD and your WW...because others don't.

Yeah. I need to be more thankful for what I do have. I've had this thought lately. One that says... Ok, you've already wasted 1/3 of your life being someone your not, treating your family like crap, wasting opportunities, being an all around a$$...

Meh. Whatever. I just want to start enjoying my life. I'm not right now. I feel like I'm stuck in the same rut I was before, only this time I'm trying to do something about it, but it's everyone else taht's making things difficult.

Obviously, I know it's not productive thinking, but I really want a second chance at the life I've had for the past ten years. I want a do over. I want to keep my family and do the things I should have done in the first place.

Don't pay attention to the rant. I'm sick of being miserable. Totally fed up. I've been stressing myself out for 28 years now and am tired of life. The only one I want to resent right now is me. When I resent her, it's because I resent me. I resent me because I want a normal life and robbed myself of that opportunity. I'm tired. Tired. Tired. Tired.

LA

Welcome to your Monday, Inf...

You asked:
"we who are obssessed w/ fixing our marriages and keep beating ourselves into the ground over them... then I see you. You changed, despite the consequences. How?

Then you said:
"Don't answer that."

Is it that you don't believe me, maybe? I was obsessed with fixing my marriage, beat myself black and blue...and you and I are closer on the spectrum because you had an EA...doesn't compare with my serial EAs/PAs, but puts you on the other side of blameless, correct? McCracken is blameless and I can't put myself there. I used to wish to be blameless...craved it so much I nearly left my family just to experience it...stop being blamed for everything.

I believe you. I'm just choosing to have a bad day. Did I ever tell you that I hate my WW sometimes? You know why? For the same reason I love her so much. It's like you said. She's turned the things I love against me. She chooses. I chose not to.

I'm scared to death. I told her I would take Wednesday off to discuss my possible moving out. My moving out represents my total loss of control. It's like I'm throwing in the towel and letting her decide our fate together. Got any sage advice? Not having her space is killing her, the idea of giving it to her is killing me. I told her I don't dare leave because i know what will happen. Smart a$$ that she is said that i must be pretty amazing because she doesn't even know. >:OP I hate her for not being afraid. <:O( yeah. 'cuz taht's a trait that should be loathed. I keep taking all of the bad things I've done, all the things she's done, and factoring the OM in to get my outcome. If I leave, she'll have all the things I want and I won't be able to see why she should take me back, because in the end I don't see why she should love me, because she is the old me, will see the old me, and I don't love me for the time in my marriage as the old me at all right now. ...

I'll feel like I have nothing.


I'm my own worst enemy. Fear doesn't run my life anymore, just my marriage. I felt free at my Mom's the other night. Like I had control over the fear. I was climbing trees w/ the kids, riding the fourwheeler in the dark... I hate heights and the dark. I swang on a swing this weekend w/out feeling sick to my stomach for the first time in years. Since I was like... well I don't know when. It was that long ago. I feel great all the time, until I'm thinking about leaving WW and DD. then I'm like some 4 year old kid whose parents left him out in a corn field by himself at night. Leaving and not coming back is the worst fear I've ever had to face. I don't know. What to do. At all.

Otherwise I'd be flying high like a kite?

Welcome to my Monday... :OI

Sound like a wayward? I've wanted to blameless all my life. Didn't know it was a half-step to the side and a tilt of the head.

Blame kills marriages as sure as disrespectful judgments kill relationships. See blame is shoving velcro judgments at each other, trying to make them stick and hang, be worn by. In doing so, we have motive...to make it real. To make blame real.

She keeps telling that this isn't about the Om, that it's about my having lied and getting the OW involved in the first place. She keeps telling me I should be a man, accept responsibility and move out so she can have her space. I keep thinking that if she blames me, she won't want me back if I leave. I feel like i can't make any decisions at all about this right now. Everything she says makes sense from the perspective taht it should make sense from. Then, when i push her story changes. One minute it's "I don't know, I might miss you and see that I hate being by myself". Then I say something foolish like "Well, I don';t see why you would because of this, this, and this. That's when she says "Well, if that's the case you should just leave anyway." i can't win. It's like she's got me brainwashed. If I were an outsider in this, I wouldn't even know where to begin giving advice. I helped fix someone leses marriage recently. Her H was acting just like i did all of these years. I told her the reasons I would have done what he did and how to deal w/ each situation to help him realize what he needed to do to fix his problems. They have never been happier from what I understand. Now, she feels bad because I haven't been able to use any of her advice because of the complexity of this mess. I don't know. I wish i could do for me what I did for her.


Ownership doesn't work that way...oh, you can believe it is velcro to be stuck onto somebody..."He's not owning his stuff!" Kinda of makes you giggle. You can't make people own what is already theirs', correct? It is part of them, no velcro required, whether they acknowledge it or not.

I keep looking at her like that. She is trying to stick this on me, but as far as I'm concerned we're on even ground. I messed up, she messed up. We both are still making mistakes left and right.

You might say...semantics? What's the difference? Blame is what you put on others and smear all over ourselves; ownership is what we're born with and have to learn to exercise.

i don't know. seems like soemtimes she has both. Seems like sometimes she says things out of "defense", but really sees the big picture. I donm't know. I've never understood her. Never. She doesn't understand me either.

One is real and the other is pretend.

I don't call that semantics.

I lived in a blame-filled marriage...took me to own my choices, my past, sort me out, you might argue to take all the blame...to get blame out of my marriage, so that I could even have a marriage.

I've always looked to blame someone. rarely ever me. I still catch myself sometimes. This is all new to me. It frustrates me, niot being able to just do it and get it right.

I can't emphasize enough the path to being safe for your partner. Plan A really does prepare us to know ourselves, own our stuff and be whole individuals in a relationship...whether our marriages survive or don't. I believe it saves the relationship we have with ourselves first...then picks up the survivors in its lifeboat.

being obsssessedisn't helping me there.

First things first, my dad would always say. (And he would become very annoyed when I would say, "What's after that? And what's after first? And what's after that?")

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sound familiar, Inf?

I don't know what to do first. I'm completely lost. I won't make the big choice, so I'm left w/ nothing but desperation.

Have you been reading "Seeking Experience and Attention to Detail" by LLG? She is the BS, like you, and her WH works with OW...she has a lot of the same feelings, reactions, and is a bonefide control freak. We really relate.

I haven't read anything yet. been working on everything else, and that'a ll coming along slower than I can appreciate.

Charting your days profits you how? Tells you how you're doing, depending on how the day went? That's cool as long as you know you're doing it...charting your days to forecast your future.

If i were to do that, my forecast would be sorrow w/ a chnce for never ending torment and misery.

All this because you won't make some choices? I thought our goal was clarity before decision...you made the choice to not enforce your boundaries this weekend. You made the choice to participate in the fantasy for party Friday night...you weighed your options and chose...why kick yourself? Did you do it unconsciously, under threat of bodily harm? Same for WW's getting annoyed day...did you listen and repeat? Validate her feelings and hand them back? Did you choose to stay present and focused?

Today is a bad day. Lots of fear of leaving. I know what i chose. and i had a good time. Didn't mind being home once I got there.

Just curious. What about the voluntary O&H "I" statements?

I tried that. She got angry and annoyed and stopped talking to me like i thought. Apparently the conversation wasn't "meaningful" enough.

What did you mean when you said I changed despite the consequences? Is it the "despite" or "consequences" I'm not getting.

the chance that you might have lost yuor marriage. I know how you feel about it now, but not so much how you compelled yourself to do it when you were still in my shoes. What made you make that choice that I don't have?

Was there any one thing, or am I just grasping?

Tomorrow. :O) I'm doing hw as prmoised tongiht. :O)

LA