"Did I ever tell you that I hate my WW sometimes? You know why? For the same reason I love her so much. It's like you said. She's turned the things I love against me. She chooses. I chose not to."

You are choosing to allow yourself to feel hate from the belief that it is okay to judge and believe another person, and believe what they believe is true for you, as well. This is where you are doing it to yourself. All that she complained, said she felt annoyed about...are you taking them as the truth about you, or her truth?

I don't hate her. Shouldn't have said it.

I compare her controlling my leaving to an arachnaphobe being shoved into a box of spiders by someone threatening to seal them in but telling them they'll be ok. I'm clwing, kicking and screaming my out of that box (or into the house).

She cannot turn things against you. She can attempt to, but it is impossible. When you give her your power...your choice, then you have none. You believe her when she says that this is your fault, YOU are doing that...believing her. Why not hear her truth? She BELIEVES you caused this...she believes you can make her annoyed, angry, erased. What she believes is her truth, not yours, unless you choose to believe it. She can not turn all you love against you. She has her own perspective...it isn't anymore truth than your own.

You are listening and repeating to understand, not believe. You keep true to yourself and know you only have a part...your own...and she has hers. You can't cause, cure or control another person on this planet. You can influence, even just through presence, but that influence must be allowed by others.

Her truth is what she'll use to justify forcing me to leave. I can't control it, just sit there and stare at it as it looms. Staring does me no good either. It's like gawking at an accident site.

This morning I was walking around the house in sweats/no shirt. she stuck her tongue out at me and made a comment about my "b*tch" wife getting rid of me and "the Ladies" being thankful that i screwed up because they wouldn't have had the chance to get their hands on a hot hunk of burning love like me (she's got a potty mouth). then she laughed and i went in the shower. I don't know if that's her telling me I'm hot, or her telling me she's getting rid of me, or both, or neither?

Talking about moving out...feels like a loss of control...of which you didn't have at all. You are talking about your daughter losing your daily presence in her life in the way she has always known it. You are talking about losing your WW's presence and your DD's presence. You are facing loss...not loss of control.

I know it's loss, not of control. I just want comprimise. Something beneficial to both of us. There's no comprimise in leave/stay, and it's not like I can hide in the attic if she's home...? or just tell her i'm staying and that's final. I have a choice, but only for so long before she implements any number of crazy ways to get me out of her house.

"I don't blame WW, unless I'm letting all those crappy emotions rule my reason." There is no blame in marriage unless you want a divorce. There is ownership.

I don't want a divorce and don't really blame her. I only "feel" blame her. and never to her face unless i slip. which is rare.

You own what you did and why you did it--you chose to do this to your family because you lived from your feelings...feeling pressured, ignored, resentful, not understood...and you chose, you say, to accept consequences which you didn't have an inkling about. They are massive. These are your natural consequences...your WW no longer trusted you, felt erased, used and discard by you...you can say you had no emotional attachment to OW, but what matters is what your WW believes. She believe she lost your love and you lost her trust.

She keeps telling me this. that it doesn't matter what i think, only what she feels. She said lot of things yesterday that I typed here but lost. this stinks. Good stuff some of it. I own what I did. I don't fully understand her actions. i can't see the intent behind them.


Those are natural consequences. They in no way remove ownership from your WW to choose to have an A before the judge ruled for a divorce. Part of your rollercoaster is going back and forth, up and down in your BELIEFS, not your feelings...your feelings are coming from all the shifting you're doing. I'm desperately asking you to choose your beliefs, carefully. Decide on them, replace ones to the contrary and be grounded in reality. You are refusing to do this. I don't know why. Maybe you don't want to halve your pain? Maybe your payoff in the way you have lived, from feelings, is bigger than the payoff from true integrity?

I think I'm feeling my beliefs. I think I let Mr. Pleaser choose some of them for me at one point, or I might have actually chosen them as they suited my needs. or just tossed them aside when it suited me. and have yet to discern what my real ones are to some extent. What are some of yours?

"She keeps telling that this isn't about the Om, that it's about my having lied and getting the OW involved in the first place." Your responses:

"I hear you believe that your choice to have an A wasn't yours, but mine. That I made you choose to have an A because I lied and had one first, is that correct?"

She rephrases saying close to the same.

"I hear you believe that since you did not choose to forgive me, we can no longer be married? I have asked you what amends do you need from me to heal for my painful choice of an A over my family? I was wrong. Dead wrong. I know it. Saying sorry won't come close. Tell me what you need to heal from my betrayal, please?"

I've been wroding this wrong I think, because of how i view it. I think what she is saying is that she owns her A and her actions therein. What she really is trying to say is that It comes down to my actions because if she didn't feel the way she does about them, then our marriage could work? Maybe, if she could change her feelings about my past actions the EA she is in would owrk itself out of the picture? What do you think?

"She keeps telling me I should be a man, accept responsibility and move out so she can have her space."

"I hear you do not believe you have your own space, and that by moving out, I would prove to you that I am a man and a husband? Could you help me understand your definition of a man as one who deserts his daughter?"

She wants space. Space to decide what she wants out of life w/out any influence from me. If she decides she doesn'tr want me there in the house one night, I don't have to be there. She doesn't see it as my desserting DD because she will let me see her pretty much whenever. I've tried presenting my perspective against this logic (sometimes for the wrong reasons) but always wind up getting nowhere. can'r change her beliefsby forcing mine on her.

"I keep thinking that if she blames me, she won't want me back if I leave. I feel like i can't make any decisions at all about this right now."

You can choose to stay until the divorce is final. Until you are no longer married, you choose to stay with your family. If you aren't looking at what outcome you're trying to manipulate and control, this reasoning works. Does it?

It doesn't work from where I sit. I want the outcome. She will drive me out of that house, or give me the choice of leaving w/in agreeable terms. I'd rather go w/ agreeable terms since i can't have what i want w/out severe penalties in the form of her making sever choices


"I don't know, I might miss you and see that I hate being by myself".

"I hear you don't know if being in your A is what you really want? I hear you don't know if breaking your family apart and being alone with what you have done is what you really desire, is that correct?"

"Then I say something foolish like "Well, I don';t see why you would because of this, this, and this."

STOP DJing...You're not changing, you're abusing her. You invalidate her thoughts, feelings and beliefs like they are yours. They aren't! Hands off.

I know it when i do it, then catch myself. I'm taking what if's and if only's and turning them into you shouldn'ts.

"That's when she says "Well, if that's the case you should just leave anyway." And I would add, "Because each time I share my fear, my struggle, I feel torn down. I feel abused, disrespected, unheard and fully responsible for every feeling you have. I believe your fear is terrifying and consuming us both."

Her fear is consuming us both. So is mine. her fear triggers her anger which triggers my fear which triggers my anger which triggers her fear... on and on.

"i can't win."

There's nothing to win. There is no argument...what you wrote was her being intimate with you and you bashing her for it.

She's trying to play a game w/ me. "you know I have control over you leaving, so why not just leave and get it over w/." She throws everything from her father to sleeping around in my face to get her way on this one. Then she laughs because she knows the choice is as simple as me leaving and comprimising on everything else. She makes it known that I have a choice, just not the one i want.

"It's like she's got me brainwashed. If I were an outsider in this, I wouldn't even know where to begin giving advice."

Reactive marriages need third parties. MC...when's the next appt?

I could have made one already. she said yesterday that she thinks she wants to do individual sessions and then go together. Contradictory to whatever she has said previously. She seems to really be opening up lately. Or it's just some clever plan of hers. She makes it sound like it's obviously not... letting me stay this long, not milking me for every cent i have, agreeing to joint custody. I don't know. I trust her right now about as much as she says she trusts me.

"I helped fix someone leses marriage recently. Her H was acting just like i did all of these years. I told her the reasons I would have done what he did and how to deal w/ each situation to help him realize what he needed to do to fix his problems. They have never been happier from what I understand. Now, she feels bad because I haven't been able to use any of her advice because of the complexity of this mess. I don't know. I wish i could do for me what I did for her." It is so much easier being on the outside, sans emotions driving your perception. Taking your own advice, living it, well...reread this thread...you don't do it because you keep saying you can't. Others can, but somehow, you're defective. Each steadying, calming technique is thrown away...how would you have dealth with your friend if she had said, "Nah, that won't work for me. Give me something else? I want out of pain right now!" and you gave her all you had, in steps, and she said, "Oh, well. Looks like we're doomed then. None of that is what I want."

If i put can'ts in my wirting, I'm probably feeling my post instead of thinking it. that's a sign, because when I'm thinkin it I take those types of things out when i see them.

To me it would be a waste for someone to ask for my advice and then turn it down because it's not wha they want to hear. I don't try to do that. I'd like to think I'm applying my own knowledge to the advice I'm given to make ti work best in my situation. Somethings I do out of fear, but alot of it stems from past experience. Things that I tried w/ her that almost doomed our relationship. She can be judgmental, manipulative and controlling when she wants to be. She'll coax me into making a mistake, and then slam me for it saying i would have done it anyway if she hadn't influenced me. it's a big game w/ her sometimes.

Two differences...what you can see in others you can see in yourself. Taking your own advice, living it, is integrity.

"She is trying to stick this on me, but as far as I'm concerned we're on even ground. I messed up, she messed up. We both are still making mistakes left and right." Ownership knows reality, not judgment. You're still judging here, changing blame to messing up and being even. You would still own your own stuff even if you HAD NOT had the EA, and you would STILL BE EQUAL.

yeah. I don't always see that one. I see even as equal sometimes. Two different things. Even is checks and balances and earning a result. Equal just is.

"You might say...semantics? What's the difference? Blame is what you put on others and smear all over ourselves; ownership is what we're born with and have to learn to exercise.

i don't know. seems like soemtimes she has both. Seems like sometimes she says things out of "defense", but really sees the big picture. I donm't know. I've never understood her. Never. She doesn't understand me either."

I'm not talking a word about her...but about you. YOU. YOU. YOU. Stop making this about her because your fear won't allow you to make it about you.

Got me there. Big time. I don't do it intentionally. I go off on tangents about her and things just turn into her. I want to focus on me.

Take a hard look at what you said...it is all about you projected, smeared on an innocent bystander...

"i don't know. seems like soemtimes I have both. Seems like sometimes I say things out of "defense", but really see the big picture. I donm't know. I've never understood myself. Never. I don't understand her either." And I would add...And I have always relied on her understanding me and explaining me to myself.

that's me. Except needing her to explain me to myself. I think? I've relied on her understanding me though. and haven't always understood myself at times.

Getting the seperate and equal beliefs set in your mind is really important, Inf.

Yeah, i know.

"It frustrates me, niot being able to just do it and get it right." Is this a reasonable expectation, that for this life time of believing one way, you would have already figured out where your beliefs tripped you up, gave you permission, how you use that, know what the payoff is and acknowledge the routine you've come to rely on and why; and then be able to flip a switch in yourself and get all this and begin living bountifully, free of all that, with no effort?

It's not. But not getting it isn't helping me right now either. I wouldn't demand quick results if circumstances didn't seem to demand it. Maybe I just want the quick payoff and can't see it?

Know your wishful kid, Inf. He's running your life.

Wishing for the life I want seems to be as close as I've been able to come to getting it lately.

Here's where you dodge ownership: (re: O&H I statements)

"I tried that. She got angry and annoyed and stopped talking to me like i thought. Apparently the conversation wasn't "meaningful" enough."

She determined your choices. Because she felt anger and annoyance and withdrew from you, you stopped your one simple "I feel" and "I believe" statement. Not intended for conversation...these were from you, about you, to be honest and intimate. If you're only honest and intimate when you get a good response, then you're an abusive manipulator, arencha?

I know. Hows the marriage going to work if I'm O&H and she's C&J? I'm trying to change for the me, seems she's slipped even further? How'd your H make the change?

Geesh, Inf...yeah, bad day. I get that. The pity party, non-ownership, she runs your mind, your world, your life...yeah, I'd be scared of moving out Wednesday...because then who is going to do all that for you, Inf? Who? You?

I'm only taking a half day tomorrow. Moving out seems to be an inevitability now. it's just for how long that seems to be up in the air? if she's going to force iton me, i may as well accept it.

You chose to not speak your thoughts, feeling or beliefs. You chose to say it was her reaction, making it her fault, her blame for YOUR CHOICE.

I know. I chose less grief over a whole lot more.

Until you get this, and it is true for everyone in your life...I want you to picture your daughter at 14-years-old and being this way, the way you are now. No idea of who she is except what you and her mother have told her. No ownership, understanding of being whole, seperate and equal...and she's out there, lost and looking through others to tell her who she is...and they just happen to be girls who know the truth by cutting up their arms and legs. Their truth.

Yeah, I can see it. I won't let it happen. Just because i can't haven't been able to get all of this for myself doesn't mean I won't be able to help her.

There's a reason to really get this now...for you, Inf. For you. We pass it on, Inf. All of it. Your daughter is going to live like you and wife do...from their feelings, from their expectations, wishfulness and resentments. Parents are contagious.

Or mostly from WW since she is probably going to get what she wants for now, or forever. Me. Out of the house.

Gotta leave work...had the meltdown for a reason and am not proud of it. Hard believing in someone who is fully capable and saying they aren't. Triggering to my old H...gonna go home to my new one.

W/ each thing i say and do that isn't beneficial, I learn something new or remind myself of soemthing old. I may slip at the time, but it works to help me overall. I'm still progressing. I just hope you have the patience to stick around for the final result. :O)

LA

About seperating...

Your WW craves her space. She feels crowded, taken over by your very presence.

Why is that, do you suppose? Not to more freely see OM, necessarily...or to have that relief of the symbol that it's okay to date while you're seperated (it isn't)...what if...

I don't think OM has anything to do w/ it? I don't know. I can see myself getting nowhere tomorrow.

She is craving being seperate from you. Exactly what I've been urging for you to know, break this enmeshment of she making you, you making her, that endless cycle which doesn't have a hint of reality in it?

Even if I get it she's not going to.

If you were to propose practicing respect in your marriage, commitment to seperate and equal, not being responsible for each other's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, reactions and choices; speaking respectfully, listening and repeating, holding yourself to "I feel" "I believe" statements...do you think if you worked on this that her craving for space might drop a long way from where it is?

No. Not w/ the way she is. I'll suggest it, but all she is going to see is me, and everyone else crowding her. She wants to know that she has the choice to be alone at home if she wants it. time to think w/out seeing me being flooded w/ thoughts. I don't know. She won't go for it, but I'll mention it. If she did go for it, I'll bet she wouldn't live it because all she could think about was me controlling her life becuse she didn't get her way and get me out. I've been letting her do whatever she wants. She's been going to bars until 2-3am every weekend. Going to concerts or whatever. She goes to work and does whatever. shwe has more space than I can shake a stick at. Apparently it;s not enough. she also won't trust me to uphold my end of the bargain because of my slips. Plus, she's controlling and judgmental. She wants space because she wants control. I honestly think taht if i leave I'm not coming back because she is going to not trust me while I'm gone. I don't know. it's like forcing me out if i wopn't go. She's gotta have tha control.

What if we crave a clean slate, like you did OW, because of the enmeshment with our spouses? I think this is what I did to save my marriage...part of my Plan A. I remember hearing statements by my WH which inside me, felt like physical blows, and I repeated, and when he confirmed what I'd heard, I said, "Good to know." All the while, inside me, I was AOing, DJing and crying. This is martyrdom, it was transition. I put his words into an imaginary hopper on my head, and let them sit there, repeating, confirming his beliefs and feelings. That got me to recognize they weren't truth...they were words in a hopper, on my head. Had to keep my head steady, didn't I?

She doesn't confirm. I tried alot this weekend. instead she just tells me that if I'm not going to be normal she's done talking to me.

Then I would let them come into my brain with the understanding that this was his truth, not the the truth...not mine. I was too fresh to not react in my mind, my heart...felt my feelings rise and fall like they always had, but I did not react. I choose to know, to hear, and to not react.

I wonder if your H wasn't alot more forgiving than my WW? I'd choose to move out before i let her run over me like a mac truck to get me out.

See, it was my DH who taught me about this pattern of enmeshment in a way I really got it...after all the books, boards, shrinks and studying, he was the one who gave me this. I pass it on...

my WW tells me I can't establish a bond w/ anyone but her, but then distances herself from me.

When he was young, he would sometimes fight with his friends. He couldn't remember what might start it, but one of them would pinch or punch in reaction to something...and then he would react in kind; each wrestling, hurting the other to get the OTHER to stop hurting him.

I just stood there and took it until I got so mad I lashed out and got into brawls.

There really is no first pinch or punch...it is the perception that one is being hurt by the other and hurting back; it all becomes about who can hurt more to get the other to stop hurting them.



This is what my DH and I did in our marriage. We pinched with actions, punched with words, withdrew, pursued, went silent, chose any emotional weapon at hand to get the other partner to stop hurting us.

We did that too. Only I wanted to quit and she kept going. WW kept going and going after i stopped until I got violent. then she didn't know how to handle it and accused me of going too far. things calmed down after a while, but by then I was used to being miserable and every little thing seemed like provocation.


It was our perception, not reality. When I heard his thoughts and feelings through that hopper, I wouldn't let them come to sit in my mind until I made my perception that this was his, not mine, not being done to me. It was his.

I want to do taht, but I react quicker than the words actually get put in the hopper. It's immediate instinct sometimes. The second she opens her mouth I go ffo w/out even realizing I've done it.

Propose a seperation of thoughts, feelings and beliefs as an alternative to moving out. Propose that together you explore a new way to stop crushing pain into each other, to achieve clarity; not to save the marriage (your goal) but to give her the space she craves (her goal). Read Love Busters and The Verbally Abusive Relationship. Do the questionnaires on this sight. Ask for six more weeks to try this respectful seperation.

Should I take this questionaire home w/ me? She's been taking everything I say and do and turning it into something she wants it to be. Probably wouldn't be any different w/ that. For all I know, all she might see is the incompatability? I'll do all this, but it isn't anything new that i haven't already proposed to her. I've tried every route i know and she is just refusing to hear any of it.


Commit to going to Al-Anon, Inf. First step is to acknowledge you are powerless and your life has become unmanageable. Sound reasonable?

Sure. She'll tell me taht she still doesn't feel safe w/ me in the house. I'll still slip and she'll instantly cut herself off from me, seeing the mistakes and not the progress.

Your obsession is fed by your fear; each thought of outcome instead of choice of action is directed there by your fear. Your fatigue is from giving fear all your power. The only way to stop doing this is to disprove fear.

I've been trying to disprove it, but she cuts me off at every turn. Pretty much everything i've prdeicted she'll do
she has. I know her inside and out. Same thing over and over, year after year.


Think of fear as small as your little girl. Think of it as a being inside of you...hey, you are pregnant with fear. Hear what the fear says, hear the words it is speaking...acknowledge those words. Listen and repeat. Then act brave anyway.

I try to, but then cave. you don't know how hard i try...

"You're gonna get hit by a car if you cross that street!"
Nod and hold fear's hand and walk across that street.

"What if she hates you?"
Nod and say, "She might feel that right now."
And hug fear's body, stroke her hair, and choose to love anyway.

It's easy to day it, but I've seen her do it time and again. To friends, family, OM's. tosses them aside out of stubborn pride.

"What if everyone in the world is out to embarrass you?"
Nod and say, "That's a scary thought." and be in the world anyway.


"What if you are never loved again!"
Nod and say, "That's a scary idea." and hold her trembling body, choose to love anyway.


When you allow your fear to be a giant, a huge lumbering man with fists like watermelons, saying these exact same things, then you'll tremble, believe, suffer and be in torment, confusion.

I don't try to let it be that. It just happens until something forces me to step up and take control.

LLG got it just right...when fear tugs her sleeve, she nods, and chooses to not DJ anyway.

LLG?

Get to know this little boy inside you...he is your fear, and he is small, cannot do for himself. You are his only protector, so he must caution--scare you into being protected. As an adult, you know there is no real protection, because you cannot control anyone else. He fears death, dark, heights, anger, disapproval, rejection, and being abandoned because he is bad. All of these represent being vulnerable, judged defective, and being erased from existence because of it.

He's not so small. Not in me. Not when it comes to her. I've seen her do horrible things to people if she felt provoked. It isn't how she always is, but can be when she chooses.

Of having no place in the world.

Being betrayed by our spouses brings these three fears into the size of a giant. We obsess on him...he fills the room, our mind, our heart, the very air we breathe. He is huge, obvious, and true.

He is not. He has been with us since we were small, holding these three fears; and we experience all of them cumulatively at once in betrayal of a vow. It was that vow that said we would not be vulnerable, judged acceptable (in sickness and health, richer or poorer); and we would have a place in the world. We would be a husband or a wife.

So, how come i can get over being afraid of toher things but not her?

It is our perception of that vow that gives us the right to be protected from that which no one can be. It is our perception of our spouses actively crushing pain into us, without our choice, that is half of that pain. It is our desperate wish to hurt the other to stop hurting us, because we are in arms of giant fear, instead of holding the hand of a dear, trembling child.

I'm driving me nuts right now. My last erased post was so much better than this. WW just called before i started this one and made w/ some more threats about sleeping around to get me out of the house. She knows they bother me and and that I have no conrol over her and takes every advantage she has. She uses every trick in the book to push me because she knows she can do it, and that it works. The only way i could ever truly defeat this would be to let her screw around on me or do something really awful and then tell her it's her problem not mine. That's when she gets really depserate and starts freaking out. It's like w/ the violence. Prodding me even after i stopped until i couldn't take it anymore. She pushes and pushes until she doesn't know how to handle the results and is left exposed, helpless, desperate and blaming everyone else for her plight.

Hold the hand. Choose your perception. Change your beliefs. Inject respect into your life and your marriage. Thrive.

I'll work on it. Try the respect in the marriage deal. She doesn't respect me right now though. DJ's, control left and right and then laughs about it. I'll try anyway. i really want to stay in the house. I think it's the best thing for all of us.

LA

Seems like I am out to prove that when you think you've seen the longest post, well...there's more. Just is.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it is to call you on your perspective...you feel overwhelmed in your life? Try reading my posts...LOL

Your posts bring me down from that crazy feeling most times. It's when I talk to WW that I get all jacked up again. She's far more disrespectful, judgemental and controlling than I ever was. Just right now, but she's doing it. Violence was my ultimate response to this type of behavior before. Now, I'm left just wanting to cry. I need to get past this, but she just pushes and pushes and i'm not coming down enough from all of this to stop letting it get to me. I haven't had the time I need to clear my head of all this enough to be able to see that i can take what she has to dish out and be fine w/ it.


I need some sleep, and i can't even get that.


This is another one of my "to ignore" posts. My first one was awesome. had alot of good things to say but lost it and can't remember most of ti because I'm pressed for time and don't do well under pressure.

I'll be here the first half of the day tomorrow. Until noon. If you've got anything to say before i go home and face the music, better say it by then.

I'm going to suggest what you advised. When i try to ask her to do something though, she starts needling me. Accusing me of control. Threats. doesn't matter what tone of voice i use. If i persist, she starts freaking out and getting very angry. It's like she doesn't bother to take control over herself unless it suits her. Honestly, I sometimes think she is more than I can handle. It's almost like she's mentally unstable at times. got me. I love her.

I don't know.

I worked on hw last night. Coming along a little better. Long ways to go though. :O)

LA

"I don't hate her. Shouldn't have said it." This doesn't answer my questions.

I really wish I hadn't lost my first post... maybe I should cut the length of these down? or approach posting differently?

That's it. Some of the things she complains about I can see myself doing and don't appreicate having done them myself. Thuinking back on them though, maybe I didn't appreciate having done them because she was complaining? I need to stop judging myself. When I saw your post saying that I hadn't answered your questions... the first thing I tried to do was apologize. That should tell you something right there. That I didn't do it should also tell you something too. <:O)

You're very good at describing your feelings and their intensity. You are not focusing on telling me the beliefs behind them. Could I ask that you find the beliefs and not describe the feelings? Shift your focus?

I'm great at focusing on feelings. I don't even stop to think about the beliefs behind them. Sometimes I wonder if there are any, or if I'm not maybe out of control? I look at some of the things I'm feeling and it blows my mind because I know sometimes they are ridiculous. I'm using just alot again. Keep having to cut it out of my sentences. It's a habit I picked up from feeling like I have to justify my actions and thoughts all the time. Nasty little one at that.

You haven't been safe to speak her thoughts, feelings or beliefs directly to you. I think she's learned to talk to herself, aloud (she's not safe for her, either), and in a roundabout way, try to still tell you what those things are in side her. How could you possibly know what she means? This isn't communication. That's leaked out of your marriage. Blame does this...destroys intimacy, communication, and the will to be intimate. I wrote on another thread...like pouring acid on your soul.

Yeah. it's killed it for both of us. Blame, accusations... We blame each other for being miserable all the time. She blames me for her misery. I blame her for mine. It's like that punching thing you were describing. I don't even know "who started it" anymore, it's been going on for so long. I won't talk to her and she won't talk to me. We both do it for the same reasons. Neither of us feels like we can trust the other.



"I don't want a divorce and don't really blame her. I only "feel" blame her. and never to her face unless i slip. which is rare." Yes, you do blame her. I've watched you. I believe you don't WANT to blame, but you do. You don't want to be a person who blames, but you are choosing to do this. Why? Because you believe in blame...you believe there is blame in the human world, that it is acceptable and a simple part of living.

I didn't see that until now. thanx for catching it. Thinking about it... you're right. I don't want to blame her, but I do sometimes. I honestly think it's because she blames me, and treats me like an inferior. It's like I said before. I think I'm going to kill two birds w/ one stone here. It's kind of like I'm growing up and growing out at the same time. Pretty sad at 28, I'm just thankful for it happeneing at all.

Insert: I believe she defines me. Her treatment of me defines me. I allow it to be me, because I'm defined by others.

I really believe that I'm no different than anyone else, but feel like that belief is inaccurate according their definition so I create another belief to suit that purpose.

I'm asking you to change your belief. Whether you blame her directly (remember, she can't talk to you directly and I suspect, you can't talk to her directly, either) or not, you do blame. Acid on the soul, man.

talk to her directly? When i talk to her, I don't feel like I m talking to her so much as i am reassuring myself. I feel like I'm talking to myself and repeating for my own benefit. Hey, atleast I'm listening and repeating! >:OD


there are things that I feel like I can't tell her right now because all I can see is her condescending attitude and the oncoming ridicule and her distancing herself from me. I've given this alot of thought lately, and I think my harsh judgement of her and other people is actually a habit I picked up from her. I never used to do it. I judged, but in a different way, and usually only when I was being Mr. Pleaser. She has a habit of nitpicking everything I do, but doesn't like the favor being returned apparently. I don't blame her (for that). I can be very forgiving. To err is human, and I've made my fair share of mistakes. Something else I've been thinking about. I've forgiven myself for the violence and some of the other things I've done. I know that I did them, and that they were wrong and are actions I'll never repeat as I've learned from them and the consequences that followed. Not to mention they go against some of my own personal beliefs. I think I'm hung up on thee actions though because she is hung up on them and I'm letting her define me right now. I think, that if it weren't for these feeling reactions, I'd have picked most of the things we've talked about up by now. It's reacting from emotions and feelings that keeps setting me back.

It is like acid. I hate blaming her for this and feeling like she's done something wrong. Makes me feel disgusted. I also hate being blamed and feeling like I've done something horribly wrong too. I made a huge mistake, she has too. I'd like to be able to put all of this aside, settle our differences, learn from our errors and move on. I guess maybe I see the consequences of our recent actions as knowing what we've both done, having to live w/ knowing but being able to move on because it could be in our past if we let it. maybe that's because those are acceptable consequences to me, but they may not be to her. Her perspective on the situation is different than mine. Different perspective, different feelings, different consequences?

Yes, even your own soul.

Own this. Until you're more honest with yourself, Inf, then you have nothing but a loop to live...over and over again. Constant confusion, doubt, anger and fear. Over and over again.

I'm trying to be. My feelings seem to get mixed in w/ my thoughts and what I would assmue are my beliefs and I have a hard time sorting them out. Ususally, when sorting them out is most important, I've already gone and started feeling my way through things. I need to learn to do the whole "hopper" deal. I need to find a way to calm down when I'm starting to react, and find a way to remember to do it.
My dishonesty seems to come from my feelings.

Insert: I believe that dishonesty is wrong. I feel like it's acceptible if it's justifiable and suits a purpose.


Because I catch you lying to yourself, therefore to me, I am calling you on this. "I have a choice, but only for so long before she implements any number of crazy ways to get me out of her house."


Tell me the truth of your situation. You signed papers that state you are legally separated and living that way? I believe this lie to yourself originates with you not knowing what your rights are, what you signed or what it means. I've asked you to find out. You don't. You choose to live without knowledge or truth. That is half your pain and anxiety. You have a built up fears based on fantasy. I can't help you with that.

Right there. I don't feel like I'm legally seperated. Legalities mean jack squat to me. The seperation has meaning to me because she treats me like we are seperated. I still feel connected to her, but don't feel her connection to me. In that we are seperated in my eyes. Still love her. I don't care about some piece of paper that tells me I'm temporarily disconnected from her. *Stop*

Huh? She cares. Keeps saying I never even read the paperwork, and I didn't. I've never read our marriage certificate either. I don't need a piece of paper to solidify my actions, thoughts, feelings or beliefs. Seems the lie I'm living is that I don't look at it as us being seperated and she does? Is this what you mean? Guess I never really thought about it until now. I knew the paper was there, and I know what it signifies, but
I never stopped to think that it might have meaning beyond what I gave it. I need to start looking at things from a perspective other than my own all the time. Maybe I wouldn't be cramming myself down her throat if i wasn't bein so one sided. Maybe this has something to w/ me accepting ownership for my actions? Maybe I'm really not doing it. i'm only seeing what I want and am not looking at the influence I have/had on others.

"that it doesn't matter what i think, only what she feels."

She is telling you a half-truth. What you think matters. Period. What she feels matters. Period. I believe where her truth lays is in her believing that you lost your vote in her heart by your choices. She doesn't want what you think to matter.

Good point. Looking at it from that perspective it's pretty obvious you're right. She keeps telling me she's not my property anymore. I don't control her. I'm starting to see where listening and repeating could help me. Where there are things taht i could be saying to help her know that i understand. I haven't been owning my actions so much as i have been wanting to.

Are we still going for clarity, or cure?

I've been telling myself that in order to achieve clarity, I need the cure. 'nuff said.


Beliefs you have in your posts...You believe your wife tells the truth. You believe your wife decides your future. You believe your wife hates you. Loves you. Feels pain from your actions. You believe people live from their feelings. You believe feelings tell you what to do in a situation. You believe that if you give others good feelings, you will be safe, accepted and loved.

I instill in others what is in me, which comes from them. I'm surrounded by bad examples. I'm like a fruit that needs to be seperated from the tree so I can grow on my own and live side by side w/ the other trees. Good analogy?

Another part of being a kinetic learner, Inf, is that your primary sense is tactile...even in your thoughts...you may use the word feel for a thought or belief. Like you're living with your eyes closed and your ears shut, so you feel your way through for input. This is how you are used to discerning facts, through feelings. This causes communication problems here because even when I am aware of it, I can't see it. (I'm visual.) You'll have to come up with a code that states to me when you really are talking about a feeling or not. Too confusing for me.

LOL!!! I see that all the time in my writing. I have to stop and think... Did I feel that, think that, or believe that? So, I wind up inserting whatever one I'm using at the time. I don't think I've ever used believe. If I do, I get rid of it for think or feel because I'm unsure of what to believe right now. Complex stuff. I didn't mean to confuse you. It's funny, because you always seem to hit the nail on the head w/ everything. Amazes me. :O)

I do feel shut off from the rest of the world. Disconnected. Blind to the feelings and thoughts of others. Like I only get out of the world what I put into it. Seems kind of crappy IMO.

The issue here is going to be time. I have to time to sort out my thoughts and feelings and beliefs and time is something I don't have here. Only so many hours in a work day and so much to say and do.

Intent...you don't guess intent...decipher it, find it. You either choose to believe another person's intent is good, neutral or evil (manipulative).

Choosing to believe doesn't make you right... right? I think WW's intent is to be manipulative right now. Distancing me so that she can have her "space" by ny means necessary.

Your choice.

I have asked for intent. She usually beats around the bush. Won't give me straight answers because she doesn't want to have to explain herself. That would mean confiding in me and she doesn't trust me w/ her thoughts or feelings right now. I share w/ her, and she turns my thoughts and feelings against me. Tries to make me feel like there is truth to them to keep me at bay. Then she wonders why I'm so out of tune w/ nomrality and can't interact w/ her.

Last night she was leaving for the grocery store. I told her "Love you, bye." and she said "Ewwww... you need to stop that love stuff. Are you going to say 'Love you. Bye' when you leave w/ Alana on visitation?" Then she laughed. I was angry and didn't talk to her the rest of the night. First thing in my head was, "Now I'm not allowed to love her, or express it." Then I had in my head "How can she treat me like this and joke about it when she is forcing me out of the house?" My first feeling came from the belief that she defines me, controls me. The second came from my belief that she controls me, but I know I'm better than that. Better than her. Looks like I need a new set of beliefs? Crap.

Ask for her intent when you don't understand her words.

That's respectful.

Doing what I did above was not.

When I talk to her, I feel like it's control or be controlled. I try to manipulate the conversations so that it looks like she is in control of the reins while still getting my point across. I do a crappy job. It usually turns into me letting her walk all over me, or her feeling like I'm trying to do it to her. I've gotta stop that. I've been getting better, but I need some work.

"What she really is trying to say is that It comes down to my actions because if she didn't feel the way she does about them, then our marriage could work?" You'll have to get clarification from her. Saying just what you said...

"Am I hearing you correctly...that if you could feel differently about my betrayal, you would feel like working on the marriage?" What I think doesn't matter. Find out what she thinks. If you're listening and repeating, then this falls into it...you repeat what you heard, she either clarifies or confirms it. I can't!

True. thanx for setting me straight. Thinking about this. maybe it's not that she'd feel like working on our marriage. maybe it's "If I didn't feel the way i do about your actions, i wouldn't feel like I couldn't give up OM." Or maybe she's trying to tell me that her feelings about my actions were what turned her onto OM in the first place. that it's not about her wanting an OM, but about her feelings toward me leading her to OM. maybe she doesn't try to justify her current feelings toward Om, but is trying to justify the origin of the situation. Maybe justifying the origin makes her feel better about the current state. "I wouldn't be doing this if you hadn't done that."

Here's the best one so far. "I know what I'm doing is wrong, but noone is focusing on what you did to cause this. I want this to be about what you did. I want everyone to know you are the cause for my pain. That you made a mistake, and that I was innocent. That my current actions are defined by the pain I felt and still feel." that feels like a "hit the nail on the head" statement to me. If that's true, and I believe it may be her truth... then what does that say about her? That she chooses to be defined by how others view her feelings? that she wants to be understood, but doesn't trust anyone enough to share. She clings to her feelings, relies on them.

She's told me that she feels like noone ever understands her. She chooses not to expose herself to anyone by being O&H, but instead tries to get them to understand her through her feelings. or chooses to conceal herself w/ them. Maybe honesty is so important to her because she strives to be honest w/ herself. or maybe because she strives for trust and to be understood. Honesty leads to trust leads to openness leads to understanding... leads to self acceptance?

Should I present this to her in the form of a question? or not at all?

think maybe i should write this down? leave it for her to read and see waht she says?

I'm having another breakthrough day. Let's see if it sticks. The talk w/ WW will be the test. I'm not getting my hopes up for a passing grade. <:O(

Do you want to do the right thing or the comfortable thing?

I've been trying to entwine the two. I tell myself that I want to do the right thing, but then choose to stray from the path and tell myself that's how I'll get the best results.

"She will drive me out of that house, or give me the choice of leaving w/in agreeable terms. I'd rather go w/ agreeable terms since i can't have what i want w/out severe penalties in the form of her making sever choices"

If you believe you want to save your marriage, then you can't take the offer for door number two...you have to stick with door number one. Anything other than that demonstrates that you do not choose your actions based on your beliefs. You have to say, calmly, lovingly, firmly "My choice is to stay and work on my marriage. My choice is to make a marriage with you that is fulfilling."

See. HA!!! I choose to stay and save my marriage, but I know deep down I'm not doing everything that I can to try. So, by moving out I'm accepting my actions and hoping that she'll decide it's worth fixing w/out my having to change. That just sucks!!! <:OD Good grief!!!

Plus, she scares me and I'm running from that.

Severe penalties or not. You'll have to clarify those to me, as I asked above. Truthfully. Legally. Clearly.

Severe penalties. Having her father come up here from Florida to attempt to remove me from the house. Intimidation. Inviting the OM over to the house for me to see. going out w/ OM. Sleeping w/ OM. Calling my family and trying to get them to force me out. Doing whatever it takes to insure that I leave because i will be so disgusted I won't want to stay. She fights dirty, I just fight. She told me yesterday that she can't make me leave. True. She can't. She can only make me want to, or get someone else to make me do it. Legally, she's got nothing. Our seperation would be nullified if the courts found out I was there. Maybe she knows that??? she keeps saying she wants me to leave on good terms. She said she can't force me to get a car either. she tells me these things, and I keep giving her ways around them. "Oh, well you could make me leave w/out a vehicle and you'd be fine". or "If you really wanted me gone you could just be waiting for me at home w/ OM." I'm an idiot. Not really, but you know what I'm saying. I won't use these things to control her, but there's no reason why I couldn't take advantage of them. I don't know. The last thing I need is to come home and fine her w/ OM in any form. I'd go berserk.


Do you think Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death!" based on a feeling he had? Or did his strong belief in freedom? If he were to act on your reasoning, he would have said, "Give me liberty, unless it is too scary, 'cuz then, you know, not owning yourself isn't so bad."

Maybe he had a WW that tried to control him all the time too? maybe he was contemplating moving out? heeheehee. I see your point.

I've been choosing to be weak. WW lashes out when I try to be strong, but also lashes out when I am weak. So we have three scenarios.

A) my strength in the form of control. She sees it for what it is and lashes out

B) me for me and nothing more or less. She won't accept the change for any number of reasons and lashes out.

C) my weakness in the form of control. She sees it as an obligation to deal w/ me and lashes out.

Bottom line is she doesn't want to deal w/ me. Why should she. I'm totally inconsistant and she's been telling me that right along. She's been giving me the answers that I need to solve my problems and I've been taking what i want from them and doing whatever feels right for me at the moment. Is this what kinetic learning is about?

kinetic learning sucks.

I need to finish taht love letter. Do me a favor. Give me a brief list of the things i should put in it. thins like maybe what i wanted to write to her above. i should hve done this before today's discussion, but regardlessof what is said there is a chance that giving it to her could still be beneficial. nothings written in stone. She still has to apply for things and i have to get a car before i even move out. Nothing isd written in stone. she keeps telling me taht, I need to start waking up. :O)

this morning has been a real uplift. kind of a breakthrough slash eye opener. great stuff. i feel alot better. Would you be our marriage counselor? ;OD

LA

"yeah. I don't always see that one. I see even as equal sometimes. Two different things. Even is checks and balances and earning a result. Equal just is."

This is growth. This is what it looks like, feels like. Know this.

Will do.

How? Put a polished stone in your pocket. Carry it around with you. When you're listening or watching others, hold it in your hand without looking at it. Feel its contours, the slickness and the way your fingers move against it. While you do this, purposefully think to yourself: Even is not equal. Even is checks and balances, earning a result. Equal just is." Repeat. Do this for three days.

I'll try it.

"Wishing for the life I want seems to be as close as I've been able to come to getting it lately." Your permission to do this is your biggest setback. Choose not to. Choose now.

"How'd your H make the change?" He felt as lost, living from his feelings, confused and helpless as you did. Virtually everything I've told you, he did. He lived from his wistful child.

So he wasn't my WW at all. Good to know.

I changed me. That changed our patterns. He changed with the patterns. I became safe, nonjudgmental, accepting, listened and repeated, then listened and told him what I heard through my filter; I became a clean slate. I cleaned mine off, which cleaned off half of the marriage slate. That's what "made" him change. Not me. Not anyone. Him. He gets to own that. Rewards and all. I get mine.

Both benefits the marriage.

That's why, to answer your thread title, it only takes one to save the marriage; two to recover it; three parties, you, her and the marriage to make it thrive.

"Even if I get it she's not going to." This is a HUGE DJ. Not that you wrote it, but you BELIEVE it. You are killing your family. She isn't.

This is what I read you say about your road of redemption, your fight to save your marriage:

"I'll suggest it"
"but I'll mention it."
"I'll bet she wouldn't live it"
"she also won't trust me to uphold my end of the bargain"
"I'm going to suggest what you advised."

That is your response. Know this.

These are your beliefs at work in your life.

"I wonder if your H wasn't alot more forgiving than my WW? I'd choose to move out before i let her run over me like a mac truck to get me out." My H doesn't forgive. He still doesn't. The furthest he has gotten to is to not creating resentment in the present for the past. That's it. He ran over me with a Mack Truck and I didn't budge. At times, I flinched, cried, double over and into myself. But I didn't budge.

I built my self-respect with each hit and run. I was and am proud of me. Not for the outcome, but because of the results. I chose them, knew them, defined them. I acted and did not react. I heard and repeated. I did that. I kept the commitment to myself to be separate and equal and to live it. I still do.

"my WW tells me I can't establish a bond w/ anyone but her, but then distances herself from me."

This is what she believes. Tell me what YOU believe or stop talking to me, please.

"Only I wanted to quit and she kept going" You may have quit, but you didn't stayed quit. She continued to see you hurting her...I'm sorry, Inf. You may have quit actively trying to hurt her, but with your DJs...you still were hurting her. You haven't quit. If you do it in your head, you do it in real life. You do it to everyone and to yourself. That's how humans work.

Here are more of your beliefs:
"Pretty much everything i've prdeicted she'll do
she has. I know her inside and out. Same thing over and over, year after year."

"i don't know. seems like soemtimes she has both. Seems like sometimes she says things out of "defense", but really sees the big picture. I donm't know. I've never understood her. Never. She doesn't understand me either."

These are contradictory beliefs. Full of disrespectful judgments. All about you, not her. Not a bit. Not one molecule.

You are doing this. These are your beliefs.

I said this "Your fatigue is from giving fear all your power. The only way to stop doing this is to disprove fear." about YOUR fear.

You replied: "I've been trying to disprove it, but she cuts me off at every turn."

"I don't try to let it be that. It just happens until something forces me to step up and take control."

You can't take or give control, Inf. You can only pretend to...choose that perspective. Not real. For anyone. You choose to give yourself permission to see the giant, feel the giant, until you revoke that permission. That's real.

"So, how come i can get over being afraid of toher things but not her?" Consider that you don't get over being afraid...totally opposite of what I said. Consider you push it aside, ignore it, shove it down. It remains. So does your wife.

LLG "Seeking Experience and Attention to Detail" thread here. She's doing what you are doing...she was betrayed. She's getting it. She gave me that analogy. I gave it to you.

"WW just called before i started this one and made w/ some more threats about sleeping around to get me out of the house."

"I hear you believe that if you choose to sleep with other men will kill my love for you, like it is a living thing and not a choice I am making. I am making it anyway."

You know this.

I'll respond to this tuff tomorrow. I'm out of time today.

I wish you uld have replied to my earlier post before I left.

LA

Good morning, Inf...

"It's your choice to be here, helping me... you don't feel obligated to this, do you?"

I was sharing my thoughts and feelings and you took it further. It is my choice, each time to post to you. When I feel worn down, I share it. When I feel like doing the happy dance with you, I choose to do that. To share that.

See. I always read into things further than I should. I rarely ever take something said to me, digest it and move on. That says alot about me. That if I don't analyze every possible aspect of what's in front of me I'm going to make a mistake that'll reflect on others opinions of me. I'm still defining myself by the opinions of others and how unequal I view myself as being. I'm just glad that I know I still do it, and am finding the ways that I accomplish the task so i can choose to negate them.

We're roving in the dark at break-neck speed...if we don't figure out how to tell each other where we're at, we'll collide or get lost.

So, what do you suggest?

"Did I not say that this was going to take alot of work?"

Can you see how you see something and think others see it the same way? Do you hear me saying, "This is too tough, too hard...I only said I'd do this if it were easy?" That was not what I meant. My idea of a lot of work may not be yours. Signalling in the dark, Inf.

I can see it. I didn't at the time. I apparently need alot of things pointed out to me. The whole time i was writing that statement i was thinking that I was not being judgmental. It's amazing how i miss these things...

I said:
"I'm feeling old, my old control freakishness self."
And you heard:
"I hear you believe my resistance makes you feel like your old control freak self?"

You got that you can't make me feel...I just do. That's the part where I feel the resistance the most. I just do feel and think this way. Right now.

So, where does the resistance come into play? Do you see my resistance and feel your own? Is that what you were trying to say? I need to learn to think from a different perspective. I need to choose to love myself and be honest w/ myself. maybe then I'd stop throwing blame around and not assume certain things are about me when they aren't.

I don't need to feel better. I feel what I feel. I was not blaming you, judging you. You are not the cause, control or cure of my feelings.

Well, I hope you have a better day anyway. <:O)

Show me in your actions that these posts are helping you in your life...inside yourself...you can tell me you're getting it in your head...which is the first step...and attempting it in your life.

I've been taking it one step at a time. Doing what I know I'm ready for... Struggling w/ myself over the rest. I'll get there. Promise.

All the "I try but she's" that I hear, I'm hearing. That doesn't mean you intend them. Intending is an action...Our intent is a belief.

??? I'm lost here. I attempt the things I learn here, what I'm ready for. I sometimes put them aside though, as WW is sometimes in ill response to some of my actions. Especially those she considers threats to her feelings, thoughts beliefs, wants, needs.

She keeps feeling her way through this whole thing and keeps insisting that it won't change, that she is more than accepting of that process and will contniue to act accordingly. Is there a different expected outcome when someone chooses to feel their way through life instead not realizing they are doing it and wanting to change?

I'll get there, too. This isn't a one-way street, all about you. I have my own lessons to learn. This is how I do it...please respect that.

See, I always look at you as having learnt your lessons and being past the need for education... I suppose there is always something new to learn no matter who we are or what we know.

Again w/ the judging. making an assumption I knew wasn't true. It's amazing that I do that and don't catch it.
LA