[quote]Inf,

Fantastic realizations, buddy. Seriously. Seeing with clarity how you were and how she is acting...I think you're really getting this...that fog is totally real...and it's generated from resentment, entitlement and lack of respect.

It isn't real. I think your struggle was with it being real...and it's not.

I'm cheering for you.

Thanx, that's nice to hear. I'm glad to know I'm doing something positive here. Alot of times I feel lost and unsure of myself and my actions. This has been one tough experience and I'm pretty sure it's far from being over w/. My main concerns are A) that in the end the only thing I'll have gotten from this will have been a learning experience/life lesson. Which isn't a bad thing, but it's a far cry from having saved my marriage/family on top of that.
B) that I've made as much progress is as humanly possible for me. Atleast for the time being. It's been almost a year now, and I don't see myself making any new breakthorughs.


Here's where you did your signature divergence:

"I got a bunch of maybes, probably not's and nevers. Alot of them were conflicting."

I know, but I forget when frantically searching for answers. I'm a problem solver and those particular words jump out at me when I'm sitting there grasping for straws during a conversation. Grasping is something I shouldn't be doing... but sometimes I forget that too. I make alot of my realizations after the fact... Acting out of fear and depseration is something I still have a hard time not doing when it comes to this situation. last night I called her up, left her a message telling her I am taking off Friday and Monday if she needed to know, then I told her that I wanted to discuss some of what we talked about because i was unclear about some of the things we talked about. I wasn't unclear about anything she said, but rather was unclear on her intentions... that was a discussion taht would have gone nowhere... so I called back and told her not to worry about it, that I didn't mean to keep pushing and left it at that. I talked to her after taht and I was right. She got highly aggitated that I was still poking and prodding and we left it at that. I really think i need to give her some room to breathe. I don't know.

That's childspeak and fog. You know that.

I know. Old habits... I'm a very habitual, orderly, patternized person. Very predictable if you get past all the craziness and break me down.

"Try letting her know that she's being unclear in her presentation and she totally disagrees."

Ack...you put on her what you didn't understand...the ol' routine...she's not being clear...or in reality, you're not clear on what she's saying? Listen and repeat. Own your own stuff...because you're the only one there to inject respect. When you were in her shoes, she tried to meet all your ENs...she didn't have MB, or support, or a way through. You do. You know. Stay centered.

I'm trying really hard. Sometimes I don't realize that what I'm saying and doing is wrong until you point it out for the 10,000 time.

"It really feels to me like she doesn't know what she wants right now, but the more she thinks about it and the more we talk about it, the more distant she gets."

More DJ stuff...really, you gotta clear this out...for your whole life and for your marriage.

Again, me grasping for answers and some direction. I'm a very non-spontaneous person. I'm like one of those guys you see in the movies... who doesn't deviate from anything in life. Brush my teeth at 6:45, comb my hair at 7:00. Plan everything and refuse to be spontaneous. I'm not that excessive, but I am VERY habitual and predictable. So much so taht I don't realize I'm being that way when I'm doing it. It just feels right at at the time. I don't enjoy it... it causes more stress than anything to not be able to adapt changes. Not pumping her for answers last night was a big step for me. Stress seems to be a big factor too. The more stressed I am, the less self control I exhibit. I'm at my best when I'm calm, relaxed and able to take a step back, asses the situation and analyze.



And the be friends stuff..."I am your husband and a friend of my marriage. I don't do adultery or any attack on my marriage. I can't be friends if we divorce. You are my best friend and my wife."

See, you can co-parent, but not befriend her. What actually happens--that's future choices, not right now choices.

I've been seriously considering not involving myself w/ her if it things don't work themselves out. Unfortunately it's for the wrong reasons I think. Not because I repsect our marriage (not that I don't) and would be against her decision to end it. It's because I'd be heart-broken and too emotional to interact w/ her under those circumstances. See, things liek taht go through my head all the time. and I truly know better. I sit here and tellmyself that i know better than to think those things after I've done it... but I fall back into that pattern everytime I'm very stressed out about the way things are. Certain things act as triggers. If I'm not thinking about it, I don't have any problems. When I'm out w/ DD I'm totally stress free and forget we're even in this mess. I have no problem being non DJ at those times and staying focussed. It's when it really countsd that I have the hardest time staying true to myself and doing what I really believe in.

"I think she's gone past being angry, and has gotten to the point I was at. I think a switch has turned on and now she's readily grabbing at anything and everything that she thinks will make her feel better."

Sounds like she's on the course and coming around the bend, eh? She's been doing that her whole life, off and on, I promise. Wayward isn't a new state of mind...it is a different version of the same permissions. You had it...I think you can trace it yourself.

I know you're right. Every time things have gotten bad between us it's the same song and dance over and over again. She is very predictable when the poop hits the fan. I have been too. I'm glad I'm finally starting to break the cycle.

She has a hard time giving me straight answers about anything. I can listen and repeat until I'm blue in the face and most of what she says is vague, elusive or contradcitory. Sometimes I give up and just don't say anything because It's a different answer everytime I run something back by her. There's alot of what appears to be sarcasm in her answers too. I don't know if the asnwers I get are honesty mixed w/ a sarcastic tone, or if they are sarcastic answers mixed w/ a spiteful tone. It's near impossible for me to analyze some of what she says because every sarcastic answer I question leads to another sarcastic answer. Sometimes I've acted before asking based on a comment she made, and she called me on my action saying she wasn't serious but was making a snde remark in ligth of how she felt. Other times I've taken her sarcasm for just that, and it turned out she was serious but very angry and trying to jab me w/ her words. 95% of our conversations end w/ my head spinning and not knowing anymore than I knew when they started.


I know I did.

"It's like calculated desperation. That's how I describe what I went through. That's what it looks like she's doing too."

And it's all unreal...calculations can be way off..and not appear so. She is in pain, as you were, and desperate to NOT be in pain...which is like flailing around instead of going within. Great that you see it now.

yeah. I totally get it. It was easier for me to continue down the path I was already on until things got so complicated I couldn't donctrol them anymore, than it was for me to change anythinga bout myself to better the situation. What I thought was making me happy wasn't, what I thought would make me happy wouldn't have, and what I thought I was unhappy w/ was what I wanted most... but I was too focused on everything but me being on the problem to see it.

"How do I handle taht if that's the case? Getting angry won't work IMO since she blames me for this mess anyway."

Inf--who is it you really want to be? Respectful, loving, calm, collected, acknowledging, validating, equal? Does that answer how to handle her stuff?

That didn't come out right at all. I retract taht statement entirely. Though my intent behind taht statement stunk too. I was basically looking fro a way to mainuplate the situation to swing it in my favor. had to have my answers now... trying to control the direction of things. Yick.
I don't want to be focused on trying to con her into thinking the way i want her to... I want to be concentrating on helping her see that I'm trying to better myself and better the situation for the sake of our future together.


"Is there a way to handle that even? I'm assuming that there's nothing I can say or do that will help my cause, and that I'm going to have to wait and see if she comes around if I'm right."

That would be your choice to be respectful. And practice knowing what isn't yours...staying calm and in loving detachment...so that you can have that practiced so well your whole life will be freed from reactive enmeshment. Well worth the journey, I swear. You know you have no control (which is what I perceived you meant by "nothing I can say or do will help my cause")...the very act of NOT doing or saying anything based on getting the result of what may look like helping your cause IS essential.

Yeah. I was looking for a way to control the situation again. If I'd focus less on what I want, and more on what I need to do for myself I'd be doing everyone a favor.

"Maybe I should just try to be her friend for now, and not be obvious about how I feel about her even though I'm trying to work things out? Seems this has gone past my understanding and has reached a whole new level."

Try to be...or just be. Like love, friendship is a choice we make...we act from that desire...and not react. Having our spouses as our best friends is part of the huge gut-wrenching part of betrayal...and also the reality of intimacy. Go for it.

I'd like to be her friend, regardless of the out come of all this. We started out as friends, and continued being friends all through our marriage before this mess. One thing I did notivce though, was that about a few months to a year before all this happened we had stopped talking as much. She worked opposite hours, and slept when she was home because she was tired form working nights. All I did was work and spend time w/ DD. I had nothing to discuss w/ her because it weas almost like we were living seperate lives at times and I really didn't have a life anymore after she got a job besides. Before she went to work, we had alot to discuss because we went out together alot to do day to day things and always found somkething of common interest to discuss whikle we were out. When she got a job, she started doing everythign during the day while I was at work. No more casual discussions. she'd tell me how her day went, and I'd have nothing to respond w/ other than "nothing new, work is work". Then my new promotion started making me miserable, and all I did was complain because of the stress. That's when we started having our real problems. That and when we moved into the new house. The stress of all the repairs piled on top of my work started pushing me over the edge and back then I was too dead set in my ways to stop worrying and do something about it.

I hated it. Not her, just the way the sitatuion was... Wouldn't let it happen again. In a way, this has been very beneficial for me because it's taught me alot of hard learned lessons.

I've come to realize taht I have been shutting down the lines of communication between us for a long time when it came to her understanding of who I am too to an extent. She shares w/ me, and I don't share back at times. When I do try to explain how I feel, alot of times she has a hard time understanding. She's very closed minded when it comes to accepting people and understanding them. It's much easier for me to understand her than it is for her to understand me, and I am far less complex than she is.


Stay true to your goals and do not change them based on her perceptions or beliefs. They are yours.

I'm trying. I'm just still trying to figure out what my goals are. I know I our marriage is our top priority for me, but beyond that I'm having a hard time figuring out what my goals for myself are. It takes very little to please me, unless I start my extreme stressing. Then it takes alot to make me happy because I'm looking for happiness elsewhere at that point and not looking for it w/in myself.

I'm happy when I see that the people I care about are happy. Don't get me wrong, there are things that are my own that I enjoy that mean alot to me... much more than the happiness of others, and they are all good things. I could give them up though and be content if I knew it meant that it would really make a loved ones day. Strong friendships and relationships are very important to me. I'm not dependant on them perse (though this one w/ W seems to be contradictory to that), but I value them highly, as I vlaue myself highly. Sometimes I lose sight of that though. it always happens when I start putting more vlaue on a relationship than I put on my own beliefs. Always w/ women.

"I don't know. Maybe she has an idea of what she wants, but is having a hard time letting go of our relationship?"

Allow her to share her ideas when she gets them and you choose not to act from her stuff...she's exactly as you were...don't try to predict. Work at getting comfortable knowing what you don't know...you don't know her stuff, and you, given your own experience, have every reason to believe that time, Plan A, and presence (like what she did) may bring about the same results...and if that's what she chooses, then you've set the stage for an awesome recovery and thriving marriage, because you didn't adopt respect as a tactic, but a life premise.

Yeahm, I have to remember that tactic vs life premise line. Esentially i've always tried to be respectful (though my definition was lacking), but when it comes down situations like this I've at times resorted to using my beliefs as tactics to be used for conquest. I always figured noone was getting hurt and that I was actually doing right by trying to remedy the issue. I suppose in the end I was hurting myself and setting myself up for future dilemmas.

If you believe it would take the passion out of you...well, it doubled mine.

I hate to say it, but I haven't been worried so much about dousing the fire as I have been about giving in to the whole idea of throwing caution to the wind. Still hung up on making this work, and the fear of what happens iof it doesn't. Not as much as I was... and recently I'm confidant taht I've taken another big step in the right direction... but I still have some progress left. I'm wading into the pool, rather than diving right in.

"Or maybe she really is sugar coating the things she says, because like she said, all she really feels is sorry for me right now."

Listen and repeat...hand this stuff back...you're reactive again after having great clarity...like seeing yourself from the outside...and yes, your pain is real over what she says...feel it and know this is hers...and her truth is conflicted...and you know this. You remember.

Sometimes I get it in my head that not trying to constantly fix a situation is the same as giving up. It's like that line in that Metallica song that I really like... "Love is control, I'll die if I let go..." The song makes an excellent point by exhibiting the ugliness of that idea. It's a cathcy tune too, if you're into that type of music. I've felt like that at times... but have told myself it was ok because I was trying to make things right and was just very dedicated. Like now... when I sit there and question and analyze this thing to death, trying to correct the problem w/ al the discussions I ask her to have. All I'm really doing is rehashing the same old issues over and over, hoping for a change in the situation, or a snipit of information i can exploit to try and sway things to my favor. That and I'm smothering her and shoving this down her throat and I'm sure she's past getting tired of it.
I need to take it back about 9 notches and let her have the time she needs to sort things out for herself, and just be there for her fro emotional support if she asks for it. that and I figure doing things here and there, like asking her if she'd like to go out w/ DD and I couldn't hurt either. Plus, I won't stop telling her that I love her when I leave and things of that nature. I know what I need to do to better the situation, my problem has (always) been in the execution and keeping myself focused enough taht I don't lose site of my beliefs and understandings.

"Acccckkkk!"

Always a good sign...signals your focus is on what you have no cause, control or cure for.

I suppose so... that Accckkk was all about me being frustrated because i have no control or cure, but in the end I realized taht I didn't have that which is a good step in the right direction. I was still looking for it though... to an extent. I've gotta learn to be able to better differentiate between situations that call for some control, situations that are better left alone and ones that require a little bit of both instead of trying to strangle everything to death all the time.

LOL

"Help!" You know all this...I'm repeating and congratulating...see the projection at play here...you HATE that you acted from your feelings last year...and you HATE that she's acting from hers...notice when you choose to do that now...and rein yourself back...whoa...you know this...believe with your mind, know your own feelings and act from your goal.

I do HATE it. W/ a passion. I'm 1000 times more forgiving of her, but show feelings that are contradictory to that because at times I use her doing it as an excuse for my doing it, and then blaming her and everything and everyone else other tahn myself becomes easy and old hat. Compared to realizing I'm doing it, stopping and blaming noone it's a cake walk because I'm not having to change. Old habits. I'm just glad that I'm not this way 93% of the time I'm not going thorugh a crisis... I can be a really nice guy, and only because I want to be and for no other reason.

"and... am I in denial about what is going on here?"

No, you were in massive denial when you were WS.

True. I was aiming more toward being in denial because I think this could still work... but I'm thinking that was part of your point anyway. I'm pretty sure I get most of, if not all your point in taht statement, but I'm sure if I thinka bout it long enough I'll get the whole picture if I don't already.

"Am I crazy fro thinking that there's still hope, or is there always a chance, no matter how slim that things can work out? I don't know if I'm judging her actions by my own, or if I am really seeing something that's there? I'm confusing myself constatnly."

If you breathe, there is hope...because you're learning every moment...learn to stay in that moment...no future kibbutzing where you're gonna screw up your right now with fantasy (that's what the future is)...take your one day at a time seriously, Inf.

Kibitzing. Reminds me of that game Scorched Earth: Mother of all Games. "Scorch" for short. Good stuff. Heh. Kibitzing basically meant "taknk suicide" in that game, whereby you'd acccidentally or intentionally blow yourself up. That's the only reason I know any definition of that word. Anyway... yeah, I'm still finding myself acting now based on things that haven't happened yet. Gotta stop.

Hey, you came out of the fog...you got the heart-stopping OMG remorse and was that really me insight? Yes, you are capable...resentment is HUGE, POWERFUL, it's poison and a drug...doubled in potency when it fuels entitlement and lack of respect.

yeah... always the (desperate) problem solver... went from fixing one situation to trying to fix another.. and sometimes not realizing that I'm continuing old habits until it's too late. This is all ironic, because I'm finding that alot of my definitions and reasonings are lacking in detail or understanding.

I've always seen resentment of my own actions as being ok, because it meant that I was genuinely concerned about the way I was conducting my behavior. Not kicking myself = not caring about what I did. Ofcourse caring doesn't equal change, and deifnitely didn't in my case. Continuosly saying I'm sorry doesn't cut it w/ me anymore. Not taht I thought that was enough, but I'm not wanting to give up because I don't feel like I can't change anymore.


This is you from the outside. That's what helped me a lot.

I see it

And btw, I said and my WH said all that she's saying...I even told my oldest, "Well, maybe I'd remarry your father in five years." Yes, I cringe. I remember. I still cringe. Fog talk.

Yeah. W has said most everything she's said to me now in the past instance we had. Only things are much more complex, the situation is much more dire, my mistakes are plentiful, I crossed mutliple/thicker lines this time, we're much more mature (in ways) and set in our ways and it doesn't feel like she's acting out of anger and desperation so much this time, as it sometimes feels like she really is dedicated to what she is saying. That and this time she's gone and made a huge amount of lifestyle changes... Her looks, clothing, hair, likes, dislikes. Then again, those are all signs that she was just taht much more heartbroken and desperate for a way to feel better this time. I suppose taht's what I'm afraid of, that this time is different, alot worse and that I really messed up so bad this go round that things are beyond repair. Calculated desperation. Even she believes herself this time, instead of just panicking and lashing out. I really hope she does have that moment of clarity at some point. I know I've been doing a few things that haven't been helping. I need to fix that big time.



"this thread is huge. heh. It's only going to keep getting bigger I'm sure. Hope you have time for that"

To make this thread longer? You goin' for a record? I'm here for you all the way through next February...if you are.

I may need you longer than that. Assuming that when Feb rolls around I'm not being served w/ paperwork. Hope you don't mind. No records... honestly, the shorter this thread is the better. I'd only truly stop coming here if things worked out and I started a new thread about that. New beginnings abound in that case.

Pull your focus back to you, Inf. You had it solidly on you, which was big, and true, and I'm sure painful...and like catching your sleeve on a tack, off you went...focus sucked into her...where you have no control and a great distraction from your own stuff.

Actually, it feels pretty good to have the focus on me and to feel like I don't have to be trapped in the idea of having to beat the dead the horse to make everything better. It's when I'm not focused on me that I feel the most pain. The pain can be a real comfort zone for me though... because then it feels like I'm really making progress and that my focus is where it belongs.

Believe me, your own stuff isn't so awful...it's yours and it's real. Owning what you did and amending IS recovery...personal recovery...getting to where you know what, why and how you did what you did, said what you said...stay there. Own it outloud to her through sharing. Time to learn to really share. I know now, you're really listening to her...stick with it.

My greatest fear is that wht I do for me doesn't count in a world where she only sees what she wants to, and doesn't see things for how they really are. I love her, tunnel vision or no. That tunnel vision isn't helping my cause though... and that can be frustrating and painful at times. I feel like there's something I could be doing to fix this situation that she's not twelling me about. That she's making things contingent on a single or group of ideas that I'm not adhering to. She eludes to it sometimes, by making small comments or trying to "show" me how to live my life and be a better person. I guess taht's all part of being in denial and running away from the real problem. Changingme rather than changing herself. She's always been even more stubborn and set in her ways than I am. She has some pretty "colorful" ideas about how live her life running around in that head of hers. We are very like minded at times, but really clash in some areas that we've always managed to comprimise on for the most part.

Please listen and repeat her words...they are fog babble. Read Orchid's threads for how to babble back, if you like. What you wrote she said is all babble...it is her deep in the fog, trying to make sense of fantasy...juggling jello...your job is to NOT get sucked into that fog.

I hate Jello. the way it wiggles down my throat makes me gag. Heh. Yuck. Anyway... yeah, I keep letting myself get sucked into the fog because I'm seeing the fog for truth and using it to solve the big 'equation'. I've seen people that have let the fog turn into their truth on a permanent basis. I worry about tha w/ her. My Mom did it. Used to be a really open minded, caring, fun person that taught valuable lessons when we were young. Or that's how i always envisioned her anyway. Now, she's never content for long w/ anything or anyone, seems very narrow minded, lacks comprimise and true happiness in her life. She spends more time on her motorcycles and w/ friends that aren't very good influences and have alot fo issues of their own than she does w/ us kids or our kids. She just doesn't seem to grasp life and see it for what it really is. She seems to have alot of the same cheery disposition alot of the time, but stresses easily and acts like life is one big equation to solve rather than simply taking the time to enjoy it. Reminds me of me sometimes, only she's like taht all the time and I'm really only like that when I'm frazzled. She reminds me of both of my Grandparents (on her side) combined in alot of "good and bad" ways. They have both passes away over the the last several years.

You can't influence unless allowed...another reason listen and repeat really helps. It's like the silence sings...suddenly, she'll hear you not refuting, DJing and not controlling (her perception). You're not agreeing with her, only acknowledging what she thinks, feels and believes. Like sorting through the garbage and not taking any out. Yep, that's in there. Who said acting from love was a cake walk? Would it be worth dying for if we didn't have to feel like we're dying a little?

Listening and repeating is hard to do w/ her. My hearing is already not the greatest, and she gets tired of repeating herself or reiterating pretty quickly. She doesn't have alot of patience for that sort of thing. I don't mind, especially since I get tired of having to ask all the time for things to be said again and can understand the frustration involved w/ that.

You be you, authentically...with all you realize, understand and know about yourself. That's authentic and very real. You can even say, "Yes, I remember saying that to you when I was in my affair...that it wasn't anyone's business but mine. I'm so sorry."

She says that I always say I'm sorry... implying that I never change to fix the problem, or that I always have something to be sorry about. She gets tired of that. She's kind of right too. I'm learning as I go... I just hope she has the patience for it.

Your amends do not depend on her perception...they are yours owning your stuff and stating you will not do them again. That's your part, your healing...and yes, I think you're doing a bang up marvelous Plan A from afar. I really do.

It looks better from afar I'm sure. Closer inspection would reveal some of my blatant flaws and blunders. I'm really trying hard, but since this a (re)learning process I'm going on trial and error. During crunch time no less. I'm not good under pressure. makes this tougher. I'm making some real progress, but demonstrating that to her and/or in front of her has been tougher tahn learning.

You're inspiring, Inf. Use this parallel not to teach but to share...yes, I remember thinking, feeling, believing and perceiving that. I remember how much resentment I created in myself, and I had no idea I was the one taking the poison...I really believed you made. I'm very sorry. I know better now."

I've been all over the place w/ that in the past, and less in the present. Blaming myself but not changing because I felt I couldn't, blaming others, blaming, blaming, blaming. Lots of beating myself up, and hating that I did the things I did, but not changing out of blame or fear or self disappointment. Or even saying I'd change, or had changed and then not doing it or anything about it.

You've got your own words, style and impact. That doesn't go away...stay calm, put that hopper on your head and see your fear as the child it truly is...hers is a giant right now. They won't duke it out, 'k? Hold yours. He's terrified of being bad and wrong and having broken something...know that healing heals all...we breathe, we hope just as much we as we live and we grow.

I healed, but will she? Big question weighing on my mind. I need to stop desperately trying to answer taht, and desperately trying to speed up that process for her w/ all kinds of malarky, DJ's and disrespect.

I promise.

When I'm not worried about me, I'm worried about her or worried about us or maybe just all three at once. Not all the time tough. Times like when I'm w/ DD I'm so happy that I don't worry about anything at all. Those are awesome times.

I have my good days. They used to be almost every day when I was younger. Seems coming out into the grown up world and having to accept responsibility at an early age, sometyhing i wasn't ready for, made some of my inner issues 1000 times more complex. it's taken this situation, and your help to make me realize that the way I was going about things wasn't the best way of doing it.

Thanx <:O)

Peace out!

ttyl :OD

Inf,

I wrote: "More DJ stuff...really, you gotta clear this out...for your whole life and for your marriage."

You responded: "Again, me grasping for answers and some direction."

I get who you are...what I don't get is why you continue to CHOOSE to DJ...to assume anything about her stuff at all is a DJ...just as it is for her to assume (mindread, etc.) anything about your stuff is a DJ. Has nothing to do with routine...has to do with whether you want to live a RESPECTFUL non-spontaneous life (spontaneous DJs are still DJs) or not. Your choice.

"I'm not that excessive, but I am VERY habitual and predictable."

I see you as excessively assumptive...habitually and predictably assumptive. This takes awarenes...high awareness of when you are making an assumption...and then teaching yourself that's not what you want...that's false information, it's disrespectful...and it's HARMFUL to you. Then you will habitually, predictably, regularly, and consistently become respectful.

"So much so taht I don't realize I'm being that way when I'm doing it. It just feels right at at the time. I don't enjoy it... it causes more stress than anything to not be able to adapt changes. Not pumping her for answers last night was a big step for me. Stress seems to be a big factor too. The more stressed I am, the less self control I exhibit. I'm at my best when I'm calm, relaxed and able to take a step back, asses the situation and analyze."

This is for your freedom, true responsiblity and love...not your confinement. If I were telling you that this prison your in will be forever unless you eliminate the DJs, would you work really hard to free yourself? Well they are. You have conditioned yourself into DJs, and you can condition yourself out of them. I swear. You weren't born with assumptions. Just feels like it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Since you believe you're at your best when you're calm, collected...learn the techniques that get you there even while you're stressed, have a lot of fear and reactivity boiling up...first, breathe...where you take your total focus on long inhale and slow, smooth exhale...total focus...that pulls it back from anyone else...second, swallow, after four breaths in this manner, and then raise your eyes and look into hers. Helps a lot to state, "I am experiencing a lot of stress and fear right now."

I remember giving you similar advice and you coming back to me, saying, didn't work, can't do it...can't, can't...and I kept saying, please, if you aren't going to do it, tell the truth...you're choosing not to...which is okay. It is okay to choose not to get yourself to a calm state, an loving detachment, create your own safe space...even if you have to leave the conversation for five minutes and return...each time teaches you that indeed, you CAN.

And HUGE KUDOS on not digging...not pressing for answers...excellent. See? Used to, you couldn't NOT do that...now you did. First step. Digging is disrespectful. You can ask clarifying questions, not digging.

This is all basic stuff to get the foundation of respect into your life...later, as you build acceptance, nonjudgment into your communication, you'll get to the point you can listen and repeat with filter; takes this kind of first steps, though, before you can get to the high level of intimacy. This isn't all there is...this is first steps.

"I'm at my best when I'm calm, relaxed and able to take a step back, asses the situation and analyze."

Stepping back, not taking on what isn't yours...leave off the assessing and analyzing for now...I think it's a secret traitor right now...if you set your intention and goal to understand and acknowledge, then there isn't anything TO assess or analyze, is there?

"See, things liek taht go through my head all the time. and I truly know better. I sit here and tellmyself that i know better than to think those things after I've done it... but I fall back into that pattern everytime I'm very stressed out about the way things are."

If you truly want to change your behavior, begin by finding the payoff of your current behavior...it may be a false payoff, but you won't know it until you find it. Tell yourself, "I know humans do not do anything without a payoff. What is mine when I know better than to DJ in my head, heart or elsewhere, and I do it anyway? What do I feel, think, believe and perceive when I do that? Is it real? Is it what I really want or what I've inadvertently trained myself to want?

Then the changing gets really easy, my friend.

Tell me your payoff for spiraling from what isn't yours...her stuff...where's your payoff?

Will you trust me enough to know it's there?

Let's address "straight answers" 'k?

"She has a hard time giving me straight answers about anything. I can listen and repeat until I'm blue in the face and most of what she says is vague, elusive or contradcitory."

Are you talking about questions you've asked about her stuff? What she thinks, feels, believes, perceives? If she isn't straight on those things, how on earth do you demand her give you straight, solid, known answers for your benefit? When you listen and repeat, you may, in actuality, add to her vagueness...she is having her opinions heard and handed back to her...and they may be MORE confusing hearing them aloud. Respect that she is giving the best she knows now on that stuff.

If they are about her whereabouts, actions...well, that's different, right?

Can you see your power as equal...in what questions you are asking (about what) as much as in her answers? That balance exists separate from your current belief it's lopsided...still balanced...there are the invariants here...look for them...no more seesawing, 'k?

"I'm glad I'm finally starting to break the cycle." Another gigantic YAHOOOOOO!

"I don't know if the asnwers I get are honesty mixed w/ a sarcastic tone, or if they are sarcastic answers mixed w/ a spiteful tone."

Share that...exactly. Sharing what you don't know with her is as important as what you do. If you feel confused, state that. It's yours. Doesn't mean she's doing it...still shares what you're feeling, thinking...believing...right?

Sarcasm is abusive. We've been over this before. When you make it your boundary, you will no longer be sarcastic with others...and you weren't hot on that notion...you think it's a hip funny, a cool humor...and it's abusive. Look it up in the books...truly is...I'm am now twice as funny as I used to be...sarcasm is a crutch and it will atrophy your heart and shred others' if you continue to choose this method.

Stop yours, then you can remove yourself when she does it. Clarity can't get through sarcasm...because of exactly what you're experiencing...can't tell when it is being used (definitively) and when it's not...sarcasm impedes communication, intimacy and trust...demolishes security. It's abusive.

Stop reading tone...query it..."I'm confused by your tone. Can you clarify what you mean by friends and what I perceive is a sneer?" Be careful here...my experience with this was "You're hearing/seeing it wrong. I didn't do that." Don't go into refutation mode if this happens. Our body language/tone, etc. ARE subjective...we are subjective...don't be told you didn't see what you saw...know that they are challenging your interpretation...and possibly distorting their own intent.

"but was making a snde remark in ligth of how she felt."

See how it impedes communication? Intimacy? You get no truth from a snide remark...an act of aggression communicates nothing but an aggressive intent. Doesn't tell you she hurts, believes you're hurting her, or anything...

I have to go right now...I'll continue from home, 'k?

Hope this is helping,

LA

I'm back.

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"That didn't come out right at all. I retract taht statement entirely."

How about no do-overs? Important concept here...what you said helped you to see what you really meant. Shows your automatic path...not a slam...to you or from you. Good to know! It signals you to know you still have a mindset of fixing what isn't yours. That's GREAT to know and be aware of...no retraction necessary.

"Though my intent behind taht statement stunk too."

Find your payoff in this mindset...really find that payoff...if I believe something I do can fix someone else...then I am, what? Or I will feel what? Or I will prove what?

"I was basically looking fro a way to mainuplate the situation to swing it in my favor. had to have my answers now... trying to control the direction of things. Yick."

No YICK about it!! That's tremendous, awesome, stupendous!!! When you truly own your own stuff, you can let go the judgments, the bashes...it's a DELIGHT to see, Hey, so that's what I think when I'm not looking! How about that!

"I don't want to be focused on trying to con her into thinking the way i want her to... I want to be concentrating on helping her see that I'm trying to better myself and better the situation for the sake of our future together."

Oh, my brain just went inside out. I'm gonna ask for some clarification here...you don't want to be focused on trying to con her (is that because you KNOW you can't...that you've seen where every manipulation in the past was unsuccessful, that her choice was, is and will be invoilate?)...

You would rather concentrate on getting her to see you're different? Really? Whoa. How is that pulling your focus back to knowing your own self, stuff...instead of her image of you?

The very act of you getting to really know yourself and sharing it IS Plan A...it is what is necessary for your future marital state...not her knowing it...which you have no control over. If you concentrate on what you have no control over, then you'll continue to crazy cycle...and it will prohibit you from living authentically; which negates what you're goal is, doesn't it?

Pardon my gray matter. I know it's not appealing, but it's all mine. (Turning it right-side out again.)

Tell me one more time what you, as a human being, control? Do you control situations, people, animals, happiness?

"Yeah. I was looking for a way to control the situation again. If I'd focus less on what I want, and more on what I need to do for myself I'd be doing everyone a favor."

Would you consider that your deepest want is to know, accept and share yourself with others? And by doing so, a byproduct is that everyone benefits?

Not a goal...to do favors for others...but to get set in the reality of you as a human being...not a human doing?

"I'd like to be her friend, regardless of the out come of all this." True friends are radically honest with each other. They do not support when their friend is being destructive to themselves or others. Don't confuse that with control. Through all I've experienced in these last three years, true friendship is really rare...because it takes a high level of intimacy, intimacy skills, without losing your own stuff in the process.

Like marriage.

Please reconsider the friendship thing. If you do divorce, then having a friendship with an ex would violate the boundary of having an intimate relationship with someone of the opposite sex...how you treat your future relationships matters. It isn't childish to choose not to be friends with the person who ended your marriage against your will. It is reasonable, reality. Being civil acquaintances, where you do not reveal yourself or allow her to reveal her stuff would be prudent and wise. Clears up the boundary lines with your DD, too...because it cuts out the tales back and forth of what each of you are doing, and dispels hope of reunion which all kids go through. Respectful civility. Not true friendship.

And realizing that cut me like a knife inside...I wanted my best friend in my life, so I focused on my goal to save my darn marriage!!

"I hated it. Not her, just the way the sitatuion was... Wouldn't let it happen again. In a way, this has been very beneficial for me because it's taught me alot of hard learned lessons."

What you described fits well in any marriage, I promise. Why Harley advises the minimum of 15 hours of UA...because that MAKES the marriage the top priority...you are not alone. And I love how you got the blessing in this...this commonality...and this benefit. I really do. Thank you for that statement.

"I could give them up though and be content if I knew it meant that it would really make a loved ones day."

Beware the sacrifice...when you really get that center of happiness...which isn't external...then by sacrificing doing what makes you happy can be detrimental to others, not benefiting. Be very careful...others choose what they do and act from love. So do you. No sacrifice required. Giving up IBs may look like sacrifice...it isn't. It is actually getting to know where the payoff is in those distractions (IBs are)...and seeing them as false payoffs, which they are.

No sacrifice giving up the knife you keep cutting yourself with, is there?

"I always figured noone was getting hurt and that I was actually doing right by trying to remedy the issue. I suppose in the end I was hurting myself and setting myself up for future dilemmas."

Now you know better, you can live better. You realized that remedying what isn't yours is abusive. Does a lot of harm inside and out. When you've put all your goodness in that good act and found out it was destroying what you loved, it's easier to let the fixing thing go. I promise. Your self is whole and great and complete...no need to fix others...they are just like you, made by the same hand. Being present, side by side, as we look inward, sharing our discovery and our stuff...that's true intimacy. This is what you are doing now...have been doing on this thread...it isn't me making it safe for you...it is you knowing you are safe to share.

"Sometimes I get it in my head that not trying to constantly fix a situation is the same as giving up."

This is called a hidden belief...doesn't come into your head from anywhere but inside your belief system. Great knowledge!!! There are more beliefs behind it...find them...that no effort is a crime...that not helping is hurting...find them in yourself...they are from way, way back...evaluate if they are true from your adult experience or not. Your reactivity is coming from these hidden beliefs.

You may feel them as urges.

Love is control...is another hidden belief we get from being small children...and live from it. Why we rebel in our teens...because we are attempting to assert ourselves...from an untrue premise! Love has nothing to do with control at all...though we can experience as if it is...ugly idea, you called it. Massive, pervasive overlapping belief, widely held, I believe. You've hit the kernel...equating these two and not distinguishing is our choice. A great one, I believe.

"I've felt like that at times... but have told myself it was ok because I was trying to make things right and was just very dedicated."

By judging your feelings, you reinforce the invalid belief...by justifying. True beliefs take NO justifications. Justification is another signal from fear. Know that signal...not to bash yourself, but to see reality.

"Like now... when I sit there and question and analyze this thing to death, trying to correct the problem w/ al the discussions I ask her to have. All I'm really doing is rehashing the same old issues over and over, hoping for a change in the situation, or a snipit of information i can exploit to try and sway things to my favor. That and I'm smothering her and shoving this down her throat and I'm sure she's past getting tired of it."

Another excellent realization...that what I've been asking you to do is share...and so discussions are asked for...not to share, but to influence...what we do under our own radar.

Sharing doesn't entail discussions...does contain talk. Intimacy is not influencing...intimacy is being. Did you notice something? You can't smother her...she can feel smothered (and I'm talking in the context of an EMOTIONAL pillow, not a real one)...she showed up for each of those talks you asked for. Don't step over reality on your way to control. She chose to be present for them. No one chooses to be smothered...though during the talks, she may feel that...if you are putting your stuff onto her...trying to get her to see you new...which you have no control over.

This isn't me saying "Great realization but"...great realization about yourself, true agenda. That stands.

Not too tired of it...or past tired, Inf. She shows up for the same dance. You don't know why. That's the reality I didn't want you to overlook.

"I need to take it back about 9 notches and let her have the time she needs to sort things out for herself, and just be there for her fro emotional support if she asks for it. that and I figure doing things here and there, like asking her if she'd like to go out w/ DD and I couldn't hurt either."

Not because they couldn't hurt...but because you are being present, which allows for reconnections...because your goal is to reconnect in respect and equality. I did this through RC time...lots of it...as much as I could get...with NO R talk at all...just sharing me while we played. It was awesome and safe.

"Plus, I won't stop telling her that I love her when I leave and things of that nature. I know what I need to do to better the situation, my problem has (always) been in the execution and keeping myself focused enough taht I don't lose site of my beliefs and understandings."

You saying ILY is authentic, unless you're listening for her response...check yourself. The less reactive you are, the more focused you will remain. You're teaching, retraining your brain that right now. To act, not react.

"I suppose so... that Accckkk was all about me being frustrated because i have no control or cure, but in the end I realized taht I didn't have that which is a good step in the right direction. I was still looking for it though... to an extent. I've gotta learn to be able to better differentiate between situations that call for some control, situations that are better left alone and ones that require a little bit of both instead of trying to strangle everything to death all the time."

I know you're getting this...it's a process. A huge change in your belief system...

The only control you have at anytime, anywhere, any situation, with any other human on the planet...is over yourself. That's it. If you are taking about your influence...your major influence is in your presence, showing up...the rest is out of your hands entirely. We all live in this reality...which is why fantasy looks so darn appealing.

I know.

Change your language...when you think control, write influence. See if it stands up. You can do this...you're doing it by degrees, like the shock of this realization has entered your mind, slowly edging toward your heart, your spirit, your beliefs...not all the way there yet...because when it is, you are FREE...and loving it. Dancing with joy. Real responsibility, yourself, is pure joy. You are sufficient unto any day...take the time to get there without circumventing...because fear of the unknown urges you to reach for control of what you cannot control.

"I do HATE it. W/ a passion. I'm 1000 times more forgiving of her, but show feelings that are contradictory to that because at times I use her doing it as an excuse for my doing it, and then blaming her and everything and everyone else other tahn myself becomes easy and old hat."

What if you're seeing there is nothing to forgive now...which can feel like you're far more forgiving than before? You KNOW that when you acted this way it was all about you...not her...so now, you can see her actions and words about her, they don't slay you. I LOVE how you're seeing your false payoff in permissions now. Remarkable, Inf. Way to go.

"Compared"

Can I just say that compare is a judgment of no value?

"to realizing I'm doing it, stopping and blaming noone it's a cake walk because I'm not having to change. Old habits. I'm just glad that I'm not this way 93% of the time I'm not going thorugh a crisis... I can be a really nice guy, and only because I want to be and for no other reason."

Even comparing your new choices to your old ones has no value. Your emotions will reflect your change, give you that information, without you judging yourself, monitoring percentages...all change is change. Even the tiniest remains change. Like matter. Judgment tells its size, not its relevance.

"I'm pretty sure I get most of, if not all your point in taht statement, but I'm sure if I thinka bout it long enough I'll get the whole picture if I don't already."

If you don't already...wow...what's in your gatorade? LOL...you are really getting that what I'm doing is pointing you toward the answers you already have within yourself...part of knowing yourself is knowing what you know...and being comfortable with what you don't know yet...that statement really nailed it..."I'll get the whole picture if I don't already." You do.

"Kibitzing. Reminds me of that game Scorched Earth: Mother of all Games. "Scorch" for short. Good stuff. Heh. Kibitzing basically meant "taknk suicide" in that game, whereby you'd acccidentally or intentionally blow yourself up. That's the only reason I know any definition of that word. Anyway... yeah, I'm still finding myself acting now based on things that haven't happened yet. Gotta stop."

LOL...uhm, kibbutzing definition matters...it's Yiddish...a kibbutzer is someone who sits outside the game and doles out of advice...like the voice in our heads, that running judgmental commentary...not our conscience, the other one. I'm not sure how to link that to Scorched Earth's version.

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You got to the reality of the of the suicide (of the present) from living in the what if (fantasy) of the future. Good job.

"Continuosly saying I'm sorry doesn't cut it w/ me anymore. Not taht I thought that was enough, but I'm not wanting to give up because I don't feel like I can't change anymore."

Saying we're sorry doesn't cut it anywhere. Amends, however, do. Can you see your goal of wanting to save your marriage as a mutual one to your own redemption path? You are acting on your choice to love, owning what you did, all of it, and demonstrating to yourself that's not who you really are...because you're amending your past...which is acknowledging, owning and commiting to NOT doing it again.

Wayward is a state of mind...doesn't have to have an affair in there to be in it...you're getting to more of the details within you by taking this journey instead of having walked away from it. Talk about an incredibly healthy adult decision...because saying sorry isn't doing sorry.

You are. You're living your amends...not to get her to forgive you, but to know true forgiveness for yourself.

Focus on that, will ya? LOL

Resentment is the poison we take ourselves to harm others. Redemption is the antidote we do which benefits everyone. Changes everything because WE change.

"Actually, it feels pretty good to have the focus on me and to feel like I don't have to be trapped in the idea of having to beat the dead the horse to make everything better. It's when I'm not focused on me that I feel the most pain. The pain can be a real comfort zone for me though... because then it feels like I'm really making progress and that my focus is where it belongs."

I want this in skywriting, please. Wow. Inf? Reread that. Focus on yourself feels pretty good. I'm seriously crying right now. This is momentous...from the beginning of your thread, I believe this is what you feared most...and wouldn't do. Wouldn't try. Knowing where your pain is coming from...even that is CAN come from not focusing on yourself, where you have your only control...what a wonderful realization. And I believe it, too. I really do. Like a signal when our focus slips...pain isn't to be run from, but understood...and then it disappears instantly...because to understand it, acknowledge and know it...you HAVE to focus back on yourself, don't you?

"My greatest fear is that wht I do for me doesn't count in a world where she only sees what she wants to, and doesn't see things for how they really are."

This is a real fear from childhood...if we aren't seen, we disappear...I submit for your remembrance, bedtime...like two-years-old...being put to bed and the door shutting...could feel annihilating. As we grow, we are told repeatedly we are what we do...do good, then we ARE good...do bad, well...you remember. Transfer that not being seen, our goodness not being seen...means it doesn't exist. That's why as adults we have to rely on our KNOWING we are whole and complete. That doesn't mean making everyone see it...and to get there, you have to ferret out your own disbelief that you are whole and complete...seen or not. Can you see better why there is so much impact on presence? So overlooked by us as adults...remains critically important to self. Being present, not doing...to be seen.

Magic happens when you do this, Inf...set this well, let it resonate in your heart...because then all that you've craved in your life you suddenly have because you chose to be present for you. No judgment in there at all, is there?

Knowing you, you'll find a way to insert it...so I'm gonna DJ you and say..."Yeah, but sometimes I'm physically present and not mentally." LOL. Total presence involves all of us...spiritual, mental, emotional and physical...all tied into every molecule of our being...and being present is what we really are...when we don't go to fantasy.

Being present is reality...and where we fly.

Now, what does your fear of not being seen feel like now?

As for not seeing things for how they really are...you didn't, and now you do. She is as capable as you are. Tell your fear that truth.

"I've seen people that have let the fog turn into their truth on a permanent basis." Great point and well said. You are attempting to prove your fear true, which seems at first to lessen it, relieve it...and all it truly does is build you a life full of it and evidence gathering.

You can either choose to believe others choose their life, with as much opportunity for change as you have or not. The more you see your different choices, the more you will clearly see theirs. No two humans are alike.

"I worry about tha w/ her. My Mom did it. Used to be a really open minded, caring, fun person that taught valuable lessons when we were young. Or that's how i always envisioned her anyway."

Sorry for interrupting...more kudos...because you shared your perception and didn't make it fact.

"Now, she's never content for long w/ anything or anyone, seems very narrow minded, lacks comprimise and true happiness in her life."

And she can change back...or in the middle...or some other way. Every single day she has the same opportunity to ask for, know, pursue and embrace new beliefs from which to live by. Same for everyone else on the planet, including your WW.

Are you seeing the beauty in God's design? The brilliance? Inherent choice isn't a burden...it is a fact. And I know you're not big on religious stuff...so I'm coming at you with my own spirituality, because I believe God never stops reaching, providing, with complete respect...so everyone, at all times, has the opportunity for changing their lives. Even to their last breath. They do.

I believe what you're experiencing here and in your life is you reaching back for God...to get to the facts of life after wrestling human opinions for what feels like eons. Coming out of the fog. What you choose as your premise is yours. I respect that. How you view others will determine WHAT you fear...find the payoff behind the fear. It's really sneaky.

Back to your mom...you traced her behavior back to her own parents...which goes back and back and back. You're breaking the cycle, Inf. You are changing your downline. That's awesome...because you're changing your life. Mind your judgments...what you perceive of others is more about you than you're realizing. I think you're getting that...just another repeat for support, 'k? No judgment back at you.

Did you take a stab yet at the Owning All Your Villagers thread here? No rush. Just a remention.

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"Listening and repeating is hard to do w/ her. My hearing is already not the greatest, and she gets tired of repeating herself or reiterating pretty quickly. She doesn't have alot of patience for that sort of thing. I don't mind, especially since I get tired of having to ask all the time for things to be said again and can understand the frustration involved w/ that."

You can begin listening and repeating with filter, if you feel solid in the understanding and acknowledging department. Until then, if you can acknowledge what you're perceiving, that is enough. This, btw, is the first, "I try but I can't" I've heard you say in the last two posts. That's something I didn't want to step over. Thank you very much. Thank yourself, too.

Since you're going to focus on no R talk and a lot of RC time (as much as you can get)...then this isn't going to be a problem. You focusing on you, your presence, taking in the present in great gulps (no jello included)...well, there's no frustration there, correct?

"She says that I always say I'm sorry... implying that I never change to fix the problem, or that I always have something to be sorry about. She gets tired of that. She's kind of right too. I'm learning as I go... I just hope she has the patience for it."

Going back to amends...I left that off my imaginary reply...I'm so sorry and I am not going to do that again."

That's an amend.

And knowing what you are responsible for will help clarify when you are sorry...if she wants you to say you're sorry for her frustration, don't. It's hers. Respect and acknowledge. If she wants you to be sorry for her thoughts. Don't be. Don't say it. No "I'm sorry you think that way." Acknowledge and hand it back. It is thoroughly hers.

Amends are for our choice of actions...what we did, what we said...not for our beliefs, feelings, thoughts or perceptions.

"I've been all over the place w/ that in the past, and less in the present. Blaming myself but not changing because I felt I couldn't, blaming others, blaming, blaming, blaming. Lots of beating myself up, and hating that I did the things I did, but not changing out of blame or fear or self disappointment. Or even saying I'd change, or had changed and then not doing it or anything about it."

This is very human...what is different, now, is that you're changing your beliefs, discovering what you live from and changing yourself from there. You are living proof...please know it for yourself. Why we call it shining...because when you get this, you do. Can't help but be seen...a byproduct, not a goal to be seen.

Do not trap yourself in comparing now with the past...you are not living the same life...you know much more than you did then...you are not the same person.

"I healed, but will she?"

You are healing...you are not healed. You are released from your wayward state of mind and immediately you go to hers. Return your focus. It's overdue and there's a fine involved.

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"Big question weighing on my mind."

Choose to NOT allow that disrespectful, fantasy question. It is a lure to you for false self comfort (I know, sounds weird) and to a wayward mindset. Steer clear of it, 'k?

"I need to stop desperately trying to answer taht, and desperately trying to speed up that process for her w/ all kinds of malarky, DJ's and disrespect."

You choose your own thoughts...part of the choice package in God's design. We've been over this. No "need" about it...find the false payoff and you will stop asking this unanswerable question...'cuz I'm not putting on the swami's hat today, 'k? Knowing you want to speed up the process, healing, reconciling, forgiveness, discovery--any of the processes you are currently in is a sound awareness. Your desperation might drop off when you realize that desperation is a signal, not a condition.

"When I'm not worried about me, I'm worried about her or worried about us or maybe just all three at once."

Worry is like praying for what you DON'T want. Revoke your permission to go into the future and then you will not worry. You know that's how you got into your WS mindset...know that as a warning sign. "I don't do fantasy" would be a hot credo, a great mantra.

"Not all the time tough. Times like when I'm w/ DD I'm so happy that I don't worry about anything at all. Those are awesome times."

You are present with DD...she's a clean slate, an adoring eye...part of you, in reality, no grime or resentment. You can get that with everyone on the planet, Inf. Your choice. Seems like you're choosing really well.

"I have my good days. They used to be almost every day when I was younger."

We looked at each day as a clean slate, full of possibilities. As adults, we took on a lot of responsibility for what wasn't ours, which overwhelms, creates a lot of pain, so we spend a lot of time in fantasy running from it. No wonder we get so old.

I remember. The joy of childhood awaits you...I promise. With full honors from being honorable.

Thank you very much for sharing, Inf. You have helped me tremendously by being who you really are and choosing to share, ask and know.

Now...what is this? ttyl?

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LA

Wow. It's going to take me a week to reply to all that. lol.

Anyway... I can't do it tonight because I'm out for the day, but wanted to let you know that you made alot of good points. I'm trying to remember atleast a shred of them for now.

You're always showing me things that I don't see, but are always so blantantly obvious after you say them. Like, I never really stopped to think that ltistening and repeating might not get me anywhere. That it might confuse her more than help me. I've seen it happen plain as day, but all I got out of that experience was frustrated. Which is funny, but not really. Know what I mean? Stuff like this all the time...

I don't know what to say. You know that I understand alot of this, and that I want to practice all of this. It just isn't always happening though in some instances. You could tell me 1,000,000 times that everything is my choice, and that i choose to do what i'm doing... but most of the time I don't realize i've goofed again until I'm standing over the body of Mr. X in the Conservatory w/ the candlestick in my hand. At that point, if I wasn't trying to stop w/ the bad habits I'd hit myself w/ it to mak sure the lesson really sunk. Honestly...! I know this sin't going to be easy... but it's been a year now and here we are, still trying to drill the same points into that thick skull of mine.

I'm exaggerating (to an extent)... but, boy, does this get frustrating. I'd almost like to say that you have more will power, more drive, more focus, more of something... that i just don't have that made this easier for you to do.

I know I'm a pretty smart guy, and that may not be the case... as far as you having some sort of advantage over me. I guess I just don't understand for the life of me why this is so darn difficult? It sounds easy enough.

Is there something I'm missing? maybe I'm assuming that I need to be grasping all of this quicker than I am. I've never ben good at processing large amounts of information at once...

Is there a "Marriage Builders for Dummies" book out there that I can pick up? That was a joke. I kid, I kid. Heh.

I really have to go.

taking Friday and Monday off, so I'm not sure how soon I'll get to reply to those posts.

Ok... so I got intrigued and stayed ror a bit. Can't pull myself away. :OD

Couple things I thought I'd touch on fro now...

Kibitzing... oops. maybe I'd better look that one up. My deifintion of the word was more of an assumption, and the spelling was different too.

ttyl - Talk To You Later We'll have to get you versed in 1337 speak if I'm going to have to learn all these crazy abbreviations you throw at me... RC, DJ, 0U812. Aaacccck! rofl <:OD

Still trying to talk me out of the sarcastic humor... I've honestly been laying off that as of late to an extent. It actually feels nice, in a way. Gonna be another hard habit to break...

I've thougth about the subject of the after marriage friendship. partof me wants to say taht you're right, taht there should be no after marriage friendship... and you are also right in saying that I should be working my butt of so that it's not an issue. Another part of me says, "What if she really does ask for a divorce? How can I not be friends w/ someone I love?" That's a tough one for me... somethign that i have to work all the angles out on in my head. Something that I might need alittle more of your insight on. We may have a discussion about this later, but I won't worry about it until it gets here.

Something weird just happened here. Some female just went out the door and was making some strange laughing/crying noises. It was kind of creepy. Noone's here except the cleaning crew at night (and crazy old me). I'm too chicken to check on it.

Sacrifices... all temporary ones, not permanent. In most cases. I'm sure there have to be reasonable ones, just non eI cn think of at thetime becuse I'm in a rush.

"Sometimes I get it in my head that not trying to constantly fix a situation is the same as giving up."

This is called a hidden belief...doesn't come into your head from anywhere but inside your belief system. Great knowledge!!! There are more beliefs behind it...find them...that no effort is a crime...that not helping is hurting...find them in yourself...they are from way, way back...evaluate if they are true from your adult experience or not. Your reactivity is coming from these hidden beliefs.

You may feel them as urges.

Very true... my need to find an answer all the time isn't a need, it's an urge. I urge to try to improve my expression thorugh proper use of vocabulary, because wording things correctly makes all the difference. rofl XOD

"I need to take it back about 9 notches and let her have the time she needs to sort things out for herself, and just be there for her fro emotional support if she asks for it. that and I figure doing things here and there, like asking her if she'd like to go out w/ DD and I couldn't hurt either."

Not because they couldn't hurt...but because you are being present, which allows for reconnections...because your goal is to reconnect in respect and equality. I did this through RC time...lots of it...as much as I could get...with NO R talk at all...just sharing me while we played. It was awesome and safe.

What I meant...only it didn't come out right...

I know you're getting this...it's a process. A huge change in your belief system...

I (have an) urge to hear that now and again.

My use of the word 'need', is like my use of the word 'just'. It's ususally an inappropriate justification. I'm realizing that now. Good catch.

You mentioned at the end, taking on repsonsility fro what wasn't ours as adults. I sometimes wonder if things would be this way if she and I hadn't gotten together so early in our lives, and if she hadn't had these issues that i wasn't prepared for at the time. I don't regret our rush into being on our own... but I didn't do it for the right reasons, and knew i wasn't ready when it happened. I did alot of things that she asked of me back then that didn't make sense, or required huge sacrifices. Put myself through alot to be w/ her. Our history of problems runs deep, my love for her runs far deeper.

trying to find hat DJ threw at me... got it. >:O)

Knowing you, you'll find a way to insert it...so I'm gonna DJ you and say..."Yeah, but sometimes I'm physically present and not mentally." LOL. Total presence involves all of us...spiritual, mental, emotional and physical...all tied into every molecule of our being...and being present is what we really are...when we don't go to fantasy.

Did I write that statement about presence about presence? If not you are amazing! Heh. My mind constantly wanders. Mental presence and I have a poor history together. Alot fo times, someone ccan be talking to me and I won't have heard a single word because I'm off in space. Part of why I have a hard time having a conversation when I'm stressed, or vent so much when I'm stressed, or post so much when I'm stressed... is because my mental presence is about null when I'm stressed and my mind is flying in 20,000 directions. When my mind is flying all over is, that is the time that I say the thing I don't mean, or DJ, or stuff like that. My mind is in constant overdrive sometimes. It was more intense after I got the Tinitus too. My wandering is a like a focus... day dreaming if you will. I focus so intently on things that I can tune out my surroundings. this may be a sretch, but it is possbile to tune out common sense, or reasoning? Jyust a thought. On an unrelated note, I have control over certain aspects of my dreams. I researched it, and found a website that delves specifically into taht subject. It was a little new-age, and almost cultish if you ask me... but I guess dream control is something that is difficult to do, even to the extent that I'm able to do it to. It's not something I strive for, but
is something that came naturally as a kid in a milder form, and has developed as I got older. I think it's kind of cool... but honestly... maybe it's just one more thing that isn't helping my cause? I'm curious, and thought maybe you'd find that interesting... and might have something to say about it.

I'm leaving now... it's 7:30pm and I want to get my Mom's so I can kick back and relax for the night. my eyes are fired from staring at a monitor all day.

I'll try to touch base w/ you some more on all taht stuff above soon.

laer

ttyl heh. >:OD

Are you talking about lucid dreaming? Where you're at a level when you dream of knowing it is a dream, doing the rewind, the fast forward...the change up for outcome?

I get that. I developed that skill from terrifying nightmares...and good ol' Richard Bach taught me how to control my dreams...where I rework them, like a plot of a bad novel...into better or more acceptable endings and happenings. I got to the level of feeling the adrenaline thrill within the nightmare as I upped my awareness and felt the joy within the fear jump up...which was cool...now I don't have nightmares...and I wonder if I will forget how to control my dreams...

So, no, not new age to me. I'd be interested to hear if this is what you're speaking of...

No rush on responses...just wanted to emphasize that. And I hope you do great self-care to rejuvenate.

LA

Nothing new to report really.

Went to the Fall Festival at DD's school Friday night w/ the two of them. It was fun, but awkward to be out w/ the both of them. I haven't gone out w/ W to do anything like that since I started staying w/ my Mom. It was nice, but a little uncomfortable at the same time.

Nothing new over the weekend.

She sent me on my way w/ brownies and lasagna Sunday night. Feeling 'sorry' again maybe? Still don't know what that means... and don't want to know for now.

I called yesterday and left a short message... just to tell them I miss them and love them. I had asked DD to call me sometime this week, but whenever I mention that she can call me she doesn't. Usually she'll only call me when she has something to say that she thinks I'll enjoy. Like if she does something cool in a video game... stuff like that. Otherwise I don't hear from her. If I want to talk to either of them, I usually am the one to make the effort... unless DD calls randomly or W needs something. The weeks that I don't hear from them on the weekdays are longest ones. Like this one. I really miss them alot.

My Mom talked to W to get dress sizes for DD last night before I got there. So they were home, and must have gotten my message. They haven't called me back though... kind of depressing. Though somehow not surprising. I don't know. Well, I do, but whatever. I'm just in a funk again about the situation... and thinking/feeling things that aren't helping this week.

Spent the day w/ a long time friend on Monday. He and his ex-fiance are going through a similar experience. Seeing them together for a short time that day was kind of difficult. It was sort of like seeing my interactions w/ W being acted out in front of me. He says alot of the same things about his realtionship that W says, and no amount of my talking to him and sharing experiences and ideas has helped to any noticable extent. I think that's part of what I used to get myself all discouraged this week (and rehashing old ideas).

I keep thinking that if the best friend I've ever had (aside from W) isn't receptive to much of anything I have to say, twists my words around, and doesn't show signs of understanding only vaguely and for brief moments... Why would W, who is even more untrusting of people (and of myself), consider trusting me again, loving me again and wanting to be w/ me again. I want to see it happening... and don't need to finish that statement. The follow-up to that statement is a discussion we probably don't need to have... you and I. Though if you do have something to say, or want to reiterate I would gladly read it.

Went to my sister's for dinner last night. Had a good time, but it felt weird being the only one there w/ her family. Usually my whole family is there, or I would have been there w/ W and DD. Felt like something was missing the whole night... I've noticed that I feel out of place almost everywhere I go these days to some extent. Just something I've noticed. My brother in law went to technical school for cooking while we were in HS together. I was going for Commercial Art at the same time at the same tech school. (W went for Cosmotology at the same time at the same tech school, but went to a different HS) We were (all) good friends back then. That hasn't changed. Now he works on cars and things like that for a living, but once in a while he'll pick up a restaraunt job when he's out of work. He cooked the meal last night. Excellent. Everything he made was off my list of many fave foods too, w/out even knowing what I like. I wish I'd had room for more... <:O)

Reiteration on auto...
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Hiya, Inf...

I have something new to share. I know, don't fall over and knock your head.

About the missing something feeling at your sister's house...

I'm reading "Getting The Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix, and it's about who we are attracted to, marry and the whole dynamics...really great reading. Goes to a little reiteration...about claiming all of ourselves...having a lost self when we're growing up (where we lose our pieces, like anger, when we're told not to be that way or feel like that); our disowned self...which is the Villagers Thread here...parts we decided were bad and wrong...and our false self (the image we created when we believe that our true selves weren't up to snuff).

So, we look for partners to complete ourselves...pieces of our lost and disowned selves...all the while we woo with our best false self...just a recipe for pain and growth. The whole two becoming a complete one...well, we are yearning for what we've lost and disowned...and find a lot of those in our spouses...so when you're at the dinner table, feeling not whole, it's because your self-partner isn't there...and it does feel like being half or less, translucent or unreal.

We go to the external to complete ourselves...and as that external changes, we unconsciously look to replace...to find our posses...which is us reaching for our own selves, all parts...

Total reiteration time...part of you feeling down is being back in the "if I do this, I'll get this" mode...choosing your actions based on possible (and desired) responses...then not getting them. I think your true self wants you to come home and choose from your own code, reap your own rewards within...true self is downright LONELY.

When's your next outing with WW and DD planned? Halloween? How can you reinsert yourself in RC time, companionably, so you can really experience the parts of yourself you're seeking to reunite with, though it feels severely like reuniting with WW?

Thanks for posting.

Oh, and watch the judgment...your choice to judge your effectiveness by BF's reactions...very much like WW...and you got that. Responsed-based choices again. Now, sharing what you've learned, who you are, what you're discovering...well, looks the same from the outside, totally different emotions on the inside once you remove the expectation.

We share to be, not to do...and when we share, we effect. Do does not effect. So Yoda.

LA

You said it, not me. >:O) I think you always have something new to share, and are good at taking old things and shedding a new light on them...

Didn't feel lonely at my sister's... just different. Maybe it's because I actually had to participate as a good guest this time. Usually I either goof off w/ the kids, or sit and relax while everyone else talks. Then I'll jump in on conversations, but rarely start one myself. I guess I might have just been out of my element, which is really how I feel everywhere lately. I do get lonely on occasion, but my feeling out of place everywhere has more to do w/ everything being unstable in my life right now... it all feels temporary and new. I've always had alot of stability in my life... and like it that way. I've had to do alot of adjusting as of late, which is something I'm really not used to and have never done well w/ depending on the scenario.

I'm not sure about Halloween yet. W said something about having to woprk things out for that day, said soemthing about Om being there to babysit that night and mentioned the idea of us crossing paths... and kind of left it open ended for a seoncd after taht. I said i could take time off that day to take him out of the equation... she started jibber jabbering about working things out, and kind of went on the defensive about that like usual. She does that whenever I mention anything about involving myself in her schedule in any way since I've started staying w/ my Mom. I don't know. I wonder sometimes if it's that, or if it has to do w/ OM. I'm not asking.

RC time? and I'm not sure about the 'reuniting' thing either I think. Seems to me maybe you are tossing an idea at me that doesn't apply to howe I feel overall. I could be wrong. Please elaborate.

She called today and left a message. i wasn't going to be down there Saturday, but they are going to a Halloween thing on Friday night (w/ no mention of inviting me, but I'm alright w/ that for the most part), so she rescheduled our sometimes usual Friday night dinner to Saturday instead. I thought that was a nice gesture, rather than cancelling on me altogether. I'm not going to read into that though, just like I'm not reading into being invited to that school function the other night. If she invites me out somewhere, and we go by ourselves... then I'll start to thinking. I'm reading these acts as being fro DD's sake, and if there's soemthing more to them than that's not for me to say and I'm not inquiring on taht either.

I don't judge my effectiveness... I try to help him w/ advice as a friend and that's it. I do sometimes wish that I could do more, so he wasn't bashing all the time and feelin so cruddy... which is a feeling that didn't translate well this time. I suppose sometimes I do approach things w/ too much of a problem solving attitude... I forget taht I'm dealing w/ people and emotions sometimes. I would never change my approach w/ him when giving him advice based on the way i feel about my life. Putting aside my feelings when discussing his problem comes easy for me. Don't understand that one. because when we discuss my problem I'm not always as level headed as I should be.

I love Yoda, but you lost me on that one. I don't think even Yoda is that cryptic. lol.

A bit about you choosing your actions from what you feel...inside and about your life.

Inf, I thought that was what you no longer wanted to do?

How did I miss that?

Please clarify for me if I'm hearing you correctly:

"RC time? and I'm not sure about the 'reuniting' thing either I think. Seems to me maybe you are tossing an idea at me that doesn't apply to howe I feel overall. I could be wrong. Please elaborate."

You are choosing your goal based on your feelings.

That's what I'm hearing.

As for OM...tell me again why you won't ask for it to be stipluated in your legal separation that OM is not allowed to be around DD because of the infidelity? I'm confused. I ask because do you know the hidden threat in divorce? Mom's BF's...they DO molest, harm and abuse children. They really do. And much of it goes unreported. It's no urban legend. It's real. Which is part of why we desire to mate for life...to have our children in our proverbial nest, away from intimate opportunities with strangers...and separation and divorce leave our children vulnerable to strangers...with invisible agendas and predilections...

Because they do not love our children the way we do. Honestly...objectification is huge in America right now...on many levels...others can see our most precious children as objects...no skin off their nose...same for women and men. Objects for use.

I wish you would write up an agreement for her to sign on visitation, holidays, special occasions, school-related activities so you can be aware of what you are missing...equal power here, Inf. Your choice.

What you share with your BF is sharing...letting go the results of what you share with him is great practice...to bring home to your own self that sharing matters, not effecting change where you have no control.

That help with the whole Yoda decrypting?

Now I understand why you are not making RC time together. You don't know if you want to divorce or not. Good to know. That's different.

LA

Wrote a mega post... lost it.

Summary: Lost my job a month ago. WW is in the fog for sure. OM and WW = EA for sure. His spending time w/ DD has become a real problem in my eyes, but not in WW's and I've been dealing w/ it. I had a WW=fog realization moment this past weekend. Something hit me like a ton of bricks well after it should have which is usually how it happens for me.

I also realized that my problem all along hasn't been that things that happened when I was young have got me in a mess. I realized that at some point I dedcided to try to better than all of that, not because I was traumatized but because I chose it. It was a good choice at the time. Only for some reason I took it too far and twisted it, turning it into an issue. I overanalyze, think too much... heistate when i shouldn't. Push myself when I shouldn't, and don't when I should. Things aggitate me now that didn't phase me before. I need to start doing less of what I thought was right and more of what I feel and believe is right for me now. I need to grow up some more and stop living in the past.

I really think I'm onto something here... wish I had more time to elaborate.

Things between WW and I are back to how they were when I had my issues and was in the fog. Only it's her turn now. It's like looking in the mirror and it really hit me this past weekend like a sack of bricks.

I'm sure you'll understand when i say that even though things are worse, I'm starting to feel better. Knoww hat I mean?

Yay! <:OD

I think I've had a breakthrough and am off on the right track here. Hope I don't mess it up. ;O)

Sounds like you're coming to terms with justifications...which is the old stuff...the pattern of processing...and seeing them in your WW's behavior has hit you where you can see them...know them...and be free of them.

Ease up on yourself...life isn't about messing up...it's about what you choose to live from...truth and clarity or comfort and justifications?

When you choose to live in truth...steep yourself in it...you'll find freedom (sweetest comfort on earth) in clarity; deep confidence and self-respect each time you say "this is what I want...reality" and in that is deep self-trust and vast comfort. The real kind.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope I'm close...it was the ending "Hope I don't mess it up" which got me going...totally negated your breakthroughs to me...so there I went...use your emotions as signals...and be okay with the messy ones...unravel the layers...get the information...about you from you...not to react from, just to know! Trace to the beliefs...and live freely.

You're getting to see a reflection of years past...that's a blessing, again...because what we don't change from the first time will keep coming around until we do.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great to hear from you...sorry about the job...I was thinking about you on Saturday...so the check-in is great...

What you learn now take into all parts of your life...I found it greatly helped my work environment, in the end.

LA

Its hard because I'm in the same boat but if you love one another that just don't go away over night. Give you and your wife some space learn how to talk to each other that is the hardest thing to do. Be open and honest, they say that the heart will heal in time. I hope every thing work out for you and your family

I'm back for a check-in... It's gotta be quick though. Apparently I've learned some things through all of this. Which I'm glad for. Other lessons have apparently passed me by...

Where to start? Well, I'm feeling good. Sorta. I'm still stressed about all of this 24/7. I still don't sleep well. It seems I've developed some stress related memory loss issues, and a stress related tick. Both of which I had in the past when I was very young, both of which I had overcome, and both of which I now seem to have gotten again. I think about it alot, I feel stressed, but I manage to function well enough... unless it comes to my new job. Then it's little rough because learning to be an Internet banking Specialist is hard with short term memory loss. I manage most of the time though.

That's neither here nor there...

I have good news and bad news... that's what I came here for.

My W (I don't remember the abrev.s), sometime in the Spring, told me she loved me and wanted to work things out. After all that time... Wow! Some time after I had given it some thought, and realized by the look onher face tht it must have been hard for her. She looked like she was afraid to get hurt, and afraid of what I would say. She was still having an EA at the time, and spending just as much time with him. She did it though. I had been working really hard on listening, and treating her with respect during the 20 minutes each week that I had to do it since she made an earlier decision to not allow me visitation at her new apartment anymore. She said it.

The bad news... for which I will most likely refuse to ever forgive myself for...

I declined.

In a manner of speaking.

I had been listening, and making every attempt to help her to realize that our marriage was worth saving in the weeks, months and whole year before. I was getting shot down at every turn. It was the same routine over and over. My nerves were shot... she was saying she was happy with her life the way it was, and she, and everyone else I knew said I should give up. I couldn't. Refused to. I kept saying to myself... she'll come around... I know her, and she'll do it. She kept telling me I'd find someone else. I refused to give in. Then one weekend this past Spring, she got really sarcastic and defensive with me. My DD and I had met her at the park so that she could spend time with DD since she hadn't had much of it lately... the whole time we were there WW was badgering me, and seemed to be enjoying it. I was feeling pretty disrespected, thought the behavior was odd... went home and thought about it alot.

The next night or so I got a call from my sister. She said that she wanted to "hook me up with someone". I flat out refused. She then called back and tricked me by putting this woman on the phone with me. I refused to be anything other than polite and to say I wasn't interested and then ended the call.

Then I got to thinking... that was a mistake.

I called friends, spoke with family. My best friend, who had helped me to hang on for all that time told me to go for it, my family told me to go for it... I refused. I spoke to him for two hours, and for two hours I discussed with him why I was going to refuse to do this. Then had the same discussion with my family. They all thought I was crazy. I held out though.

When the dust settled, and the bullet stopped flying. I came out victorius. I'd only won the battle though, and not the war. I immediately thought about the OM, the things she had repeatedly hid from me, all the times they had been found spending time together, and all of the things she had done and said, and her recent attitude... and I caved.

I saw this girl on the Friday night after the Sunday at the park, went to get DD on Sunday two days after and WW pulls me aside and tells me that she loves me and wanted to work things out. Time stopped. I thought about all of those things I just listed, thought about how the OM was still in the picture... and I pulled her aside outside of the apartment, pulled together every last bit of courage and anger I had... and told her I was seeing someone.

After that she made what I now realize were her attempts at efforts to correct the situation. I guess she finally realized the mess she had gotten herself into. I was later told by her that she cried for hours after hearing that bit of information come from my mouth.

We started arguing again, she was still seeing OM... had spent holidays and anniversaries with him. None of that changed. So, I didn't make an effort to change anything either.

I was seeing this woman for about 5 months. It was on and off, not serious, and was much more an EA/. We weren't compatible. I regret every minute of it. I did it out of jealousy, and hurt, anger, and sadness and pressure from others.

Well, my anniversary with WW was coming up on Sept. 1st. I assumed... groan... that it would like the previous year and WW would spend it hating me and doing whatever with OM. So, when my OW (reading that makes me hate myself) said that she was going to Disney then and invited me along, I went. Just before I left I told WW I was going. She asked when, I told her. She said "oh." I asked her why it was of concern to her. She said that she had thought that since I had wanted to spend the last anniversary with her that she was going to have made herself avainable in case I felt the need to call her that day. I told her not to worry about it, and that if I got that chance I'd just call her from Disney.

I got back from that trip. Had a "What have I done?!?!?!" moment. Ended my relationship with OW, and slowly worked up to letting WW know that I was sorry, that I hadn't stopped loving her and that I hoped we still had a chance. I then found out that she had filed divorce paperwork, and made the decision that she was drawing the line after I went to Disney with someone else on our anniversary, said something about a possible relationship with OM, said it's been 2 years now, her life has been on hold, etc...

I think she still loves me. She's nice to me now. makes time to talk when I call most times. Got me Christmas presents this year again. I swear she still loves me. So I'm trying... I'm starting over again and I'm trying. The divorce was to have been final by now, but got held up because... get this... turns out our seperation wasn't legal. The notary made a mistake. So now she has refiled the divorce paperwork, with the claim of abandonment, listing me as the guilty party.

I'm still trying. I was told recently by her in a sarcastically humorous tone that I'm fortunate in that it will take until February or March to process the new paperwork. I told her I had considered not signing because I wasn't sure that I'd be ready. She told me that'll give me plenty of time to concoct my big plan to fix the situation by then. More sarcasm. She said that regardless, she'll get on with her life because to her it's only a piece of paper anyway. Whether that means that with or without a divorce she's moving on, or that with or without one she'll always love me, or both... or if it means nothing, other than things are the way they are and can always change... I'll be finding out everything sooner or later.

I'm glad I remembered that these pages expire and copied everything before I submitted it.

I wish I could find the right words to describe exactly what I've done to be in the situation I'm in right now.

I'm praying that it's not too late, and trying not to think about the odds of that coming true.

I'll check back daily for a reply. Hope you get this LA. If only I had thought to come here instead of turning to everyone else for advice. My talks with you are the one true thing that helped to keep me strong, and set me on the right path... and when I needed to remember that I somehow managed to do anything but??? ... I'm not understanding that...? Coincidence, fate, the Big Guy upstairs, absentmindedness, stress, carelessnes, or just a brain fart? I wish I knew.

One prayer already answered...I see your post.

I see you, Inf.

Have thought of you many times throughout the year. You're remembered.

To your last question...you already know. You made a choice. Each step in your life, you chose...and the worst ones were the ones you made when you self-deceived into thinking you weren't really making them...others were making you make them.

Would that be close?

I say this because I see where your WW's sarcasm triggered many, many reactive choices in your life, over the years. And I see where your own felt like armor, rightness and entitlement...even part kudos or admiration.

Finding our false gods is one of our many challenges in our lives, I believe. False payoffs. Amazing how neglecting this can change our lives, over and over again, isn't it?

And yet, in doing this, we come back to what really matters most...really shines a light on what may have looked like what we wanted, when our priorities get mixed up, bringing us back to our deepest desire.

Usually takes bringing us to our knees. Again.

I know you know I say this because that's been my experience. I don't like it any more than you do, Inf. I know you know that.

You cut out something from your life...coming to MB. Had to stay honest with yourself here, didn't you? You know gigo...garbage in means garbage out. It's a tough act of self-care in my book...the tough makes it an outstanding act of love, I think, because it isn't easy or natural.

So what your year harvested began with you not acting from love of yourself...which keeps us aligned to what we really want, aware of what we value highly.

Not short-term memory loss...maybe you signalling from your self that you're back to the reactive life, bullying through, making it...holding onto rote, not growth? I dunno. I trust you to tell me. It's what I have done in the last three months. You know you're not alone.

For all you did to save your marriage...did you prepare yourself for saving it? Was her request what blew you away, the chance of really rebuilding something incredible together, too much? Did you have hidden expectations, of detailed remorse, apologies, begging you back? Or did your lack of real self-care (not distraction) lay the ground for you to revert to replying that you were wanted by someone else, therefore wantable?

So you stood in that place where you wiped yourself out completely, and you were pretty much aware you were doing that, and still, continued on, living that way again? You hadn't for so many months...learning you really are whole and complete...struggling with not honoring, encouraging, enjoying who you are fully...completely.

What was it in that moment you had secretly, even from your self, wanted to hear from WW, when she wanted reconciliation?

To own what she did, why she did it, and why she wouldn't choose to do it again?

So now, are you going to do that yourself?

You can relish her tears...you had a year of them yourself. She didn't do Plan A, had no knowledge of MB, did see? She knew with OM every contact could lose her marriage...and you knew, with OW, the same.

Find the false payoffs, 'k? I see you aching to know yourself...not from how others have defined you...how you have not stepped up and defined yourself and stuck with those.

That's the allure of APs...because you knew this, yours didn't really fit the bill, did she? You were half aware of how very much others will not fill that void. Your real partner, in a union, side by side, can. Because you fill it first.

Not wrong or bad you didn't reach for what you knew would help you get clear on your choices...we don't take aspirin when we feel the first sign of a headache, do we? Takes practice and commitment to doing that...and choosing the belief we're worth it...worth others' time in listening, replying, being a part of our journey.

Now you know so much more from this year alone...you know how important processing stress (not fighting it) is...how distracting from pain teaches our brains to distract quickly, from putting a lot out of it (as if that processes stress), so we don't remember even what we need to remember...and how all of it may feel like carelessness...because the acts of care are absent from ourselves...high distraction does that. Not enough or too much.

We make our fates through our choices...which is where the idea of fate comes from...we cannot control consequences...they come. Doesn't change that we choose, moment to moment, does it?

You're on new ground in your marriage again...because your previous EA and now this...you've walked in WW's shoes again, haven't you? Done harm...been harmed. In the end, what do you really want?

I would begin with sarcasm and let the future arrive.

Find your false payoffs...go back to constructing your code, living from it...and know that saving your marriage means you might just do it...and take years to heal for it...one day at a time.

Big Guy's grace remains true, every day. You know it does. You are new in this day, with more knowledge, awareness and experience than you had yesterday or last year. You know...what you're asking is if you can still choose, aren't you?

LA

It's nice to be reading a post from you again. :O) Though, I am going to have to get into the habit of deciphering the information you give me here again. :OD

It wasn't my intention to imply that anyone had forced me into a deicsion... if I'm reading that correctly? No, I made my decisions... using justification that I pulled from their statements to do it.

I wish I had more time to post today...

I have alot to say, and don't know quite how to sum it all up in short... other than to say I'm not where I want to be in my decision making process, and with how I feel about things... and it seems that when I'm left to my own devices I let feelings and emotions take over and make decisions that are counter-productive to my goal. Which is to work on myself, and have the possibility of my marriage surviving as a result, not to hold the status of my marriage accountable for my actions and my well being. This goes beyond that even. It's more than that... it's the reason behind doing that which is the real issue at hand... I'm still fighting myself... and I know it's because I have doubts about whether or not she loves me as I much I love her. That seems to be the absolute, most important thing to me... knowing that. Having the answer to that question.

I have this idea that love shouldn't falter, even when we do.

I think it's not knowing that she loved me that drove me to make the choice I made this past Spring, and knowing that I love her that led me to undo that decision.

Reading this makes me wonder just how beneficial this particular way of thinking is to how I'd like to live my life?

I'll wait for ya...you already know that.

As to your question...

You know you can both be in love with each other again.

You know that.

Love doesn't falter...acting from love does. Because it's a moment by moment choice.

Why our love bank rises and falls, doesn't it?

Not inhuman to want to know if there's a happy ending before we undertake the whole story...our inner child is always straining to see over the steering wheel, I think.

Unreasonable in our adult selves, though. We don't know what's next...even if we focus on it with all our might, carefully picking up all the bits and clues along the way for proof of knowing...

what we cannot know.

Which makes the integrity of the journey the thing.

And acceptance of what we cannot know, and what we do know, essential.

You know that to experience life closest to reality, you act from your beliefs...even when you don't feel like it. Because your higher payoff is that thriving life you know exists, you've tasted, when you do act directly from your beliefs.

You hold yourself to your own goals...takes daily, even hourly, practice...until our brains hand us those actions automatically.

Just as they have for all our lives, handing us what they thought we wanted...to manage our emotions instead of glean the information they are delivering to us.

We lived backwards...in loops...which happens when we are looking at our feet (end result) instead of with our own eyes, at what is, and what really isn't.

What you didn't believe was possible, because you chose not to, that your WW would want to reconcile, blew you away. Had you had no expectation...either of she wanting to or not...just knowing, daily, she was choosing to attack your M with OM...the truth...until she chose not to...was reality all along.

Choices.

Love is a choice. You know this. You know a whole heckuva lot, Inf. You really do. You weren't rebuilding your own self-trust, self-love...you began faltering in your own self-care in the long, long months before your WW chose differently.

Time to rebuild trust in yourself...see what you were standing on, running from, fighting for...reassess and redeliver to yourself what you've been craving your whole life.

Takes one moment to decide...the next to focus...to say, "This is what I really want" to your own brain...to hand you forward living...from your beliefs, and the feelings follow.

What I hear you saying is your focus on her feelings, her loving you or not, became your undoing when you needed your own focus on you the most, is that correct?

We teach ourselves, I believe. Over and over again. Which is why it's not about being bad, wrong or horrible. It's how hard we make our own lessons when we continue to choose to react than act. Primary step...bringing the lesson back to us, again and again.

And all of this was exactly what I needed to hear myself again...right now...in my own marriage. Your choice to come back to MB is a gift to me, my marriage.

Which is why being on these boards is so important to me. I'm glad you were here before I left. I'm thinking that by the end of January, I'll be gone for a break. I hope you'll post in GQII then, to get imput from others...not cut yourself off by staying in Other Topics. You can always link to this thread over there.

You're worth it. God doesn't stop reaching...even when you stop reaching for him.

LA

I posted a reply... knew the page would expire... copied it... the page expired... I fixed the problem... or so I thought...

repost.

I love computer technology, as it brought video games, email, computer art and cool .gif files into my life, but sometimes it can be a real downer.

That's an exaggeration, but you get the point...

moving along...

You're awesome LA... I appreciate that you're here for me and everyone else... and probably yourself too. Maybe one day, if the opportunity arises, I'll be able to repay the favor. Whether it's by giving you some really solid piece of advice, or by being able to take what I've been working on here and doing something really great with it.

I know that you know that I know... and I had a big, resounding "BUT" that I wanted to throw in there... but I'll leave it alone. I do have another question for you though... and I think that I should already know the answer to this... but I'm not finding one that rings clear... so... here it is...

If I get served divorce paperwork... what should I do? I pretty much know it is coming, and soon. What should I do? Not signing seems like the right thing to me... especially since, as the circumstances would have it, she filed on the grounds of abandoment to speed up the process. I don't feel as though I abandoned her, nor do I feel that she abandoned me. I really don't want to lie, as that's what signing on those terms would feel like to me... not to menton that signing the paperwork to me would signify that I'm accepting that I'm giving up on our marriage. At this point in time, I'm not doing that by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not looking for validation here, or for someone to make up my mind for me... I guess I'm looking more for a Plan A, Plan B perspective here. Let me put it to you this way... I am not signing that paperwork. So maybe answering that question would not make any sense anyway... and I think that you know that I know that too. I think?

I see the light at the end of the tunnel... I see that we could be together again and love each other... given enough time . That last part being the key to unlocking the desired outcome. I don't feel like time is something I have now. I was up against impossible odds in the first place... ultimatums and what have you... I had overcome those odds... and thrown that achievement away. I want to say that the pressure I felt to fix my marriage post haste before was caused by fear and uncertainty... and tht this time it seems to be more of a reality. I've got this idea in my head that the things I'm doing now aren't going to be a fix, but more along the lines of a "going away present". Something for her to look back on later in life and be thankful for. After she's started a new life (with or without OM)... if she even thinks about all this after the fact.

Apparently her friends, some of her family and the OM can't stand me... which holds no concern for me, particulary in regards to the OM since I'm sure his dislike for me can't hold a candle to the raging hatred I harbor for him. I view him more as a speed bump on the way to my goal, than as a person... it's her opinion of their opinions that concerns me. She obviously holds them in much higher regard, and it seems is leaning on the thoughts as a crutch to back up her goal. Ironically, this would never have been the case previously. Since she trusts noone, except OM apparently, she has never relied on justification from others to make a decision of this type... I take that back... there really isn't much irony to that, so much as there is a strong hint of obviousness.

One of them went so far as to buy her a "how to" book... as in "How to get over your spouse". Before even having contemplated asking, I was told that a name of said friend or family member would not be divulged as she would not have me "hating that person forever". The thought had crossed my mind for less than a split second... but I'm reserving that for OM. I don't want a list. Apparently the book was purchased because she WAS back and forth all the time. WAS being the operative word in that particular sentence.

It seems before that she was angry and not making a concious decision about anything in our relationship. Just doing whatever made her feel good, which consisted of not thinking about things alot, and taking her hurt and anger out on me directly and indirectly. Conciously, and without realizing it at times. I wish I were still up that creek without a paddle.

I don't know how to face an adversary as strong as intentional seperation. Or do I? I thought that before I was up against indifference created by hurt. Purposely getting over me and making a decision to not ever work things out seems like an impossible battle. I think I've been defeated before even having planned my strategy. I really don't know... and if I weren't pushing myself so intently these days to keep trying, I'd be pretty disheartened right now. It makes it especially difficult because I've made my feelings known, and have been told that I can be glad that I have what little time I have left, and that I can use that time to come up with some big plan to make things work during it. That was without having saying anything about the reality of that scenario... How can I "win"? I've been laughed at for trying to defy her ultimate decision... I don't see the hope in that other than that which I am creating for myself because I refuse to give up.

I forgot to make mention of one other setback I've had recently. I have to confess to this... I need to get it out there, and say this to someone that actually doesn't appreciate what I've done. I went to pick up DD... and DD showed me, on purpose, the elaborate birthday cake WW was hiding on me that she made for OM. I took DD out to the car, and when WW made no attempt to apologize or explain I came back inside the apartment while she was drying her hair, pulled the cake out of the oven and smashed it all over the counters and the walls with my fist when she came out to see what was going on. My mouth went afoul with a quick hurtful shot, and I left. I later apologized for the effort she had spent making the cake, but I refuse to apologize for destroying it. She said it was just a cake and that I should have let it go, but later on several comments were made to let me know she hurt because I had done it... and somehow I doubt that it was because she had spent so much time on it... Which to me justifies my lack of apology.

I feel hurt because it hurt her, and I hate seeing her hurt, but I can't help but believing that my decision to not apologize was warranted...?

If I never have to go through any of this again in my entire life I will be the happiest person alive. I've probably said that here before. I'm reiterating to stress emphasis, and denote the increased difficulty of the situation. I'm a nitwit. *sigh* I've broken promises, hurt feelings, damaged my marriage, driven my WW away from me to a degree I didn't think I was capable of, and made mistake apon mistake because you would swear I have no conviction or integrity, which I would swear on my Grandmother's grave to be untrue if I hadn't seen it myself. It's like I've been retaliating, even when I should know it's not warranted and definitely not what's going to mend things. WW has said that it's like I think everyone is out to get me. I think it hasn't been everyone, just her and OM and that it is just spilling into my everyday life now and again. I know that to not be true, in regards to her anyway and everyone but OM anyway. You know that I know that there's a difference between being out to hurt someone, and just not considering their feelings. I think maybe that I know that you that it sure doesn't feel that way at times. Especially when you know you love someone profoundly and you forget that they can't see that because you're trying so hard to prove it...

I'm going on and on...

So... I know that this could work... I don't believe that it will though. I'm trying to fool myself in the meantime.

All of this has reminded me that the need to have a happy ending only leads to fear of the "what if's". I'm not afraid of living life without her... I'm afraid that the hurt won't go away if it happens. I'm afraid that I've got just as work ahead of me to figure out the rest of my life if our marriage fails, because what do you with the rest of your life when you love someone you can't be with just as much as the day you married them? Staying single the rest of my life seems like the right thing to do, and the most difficult road to take. That's where I stand with that... Being with someone else when my heart belongs to another seems unfair. Or maybe there will come a point in time it will all just fall into place and the plan for the rest of my life will make itself known? I think I can be brave enough to wait for that day... I'm getting better at that whole being brave thing... slowly but surely.

The integrity of the journey... am I close... no, yes, maybe?

You know, things probably wouldn't be this way, and I wouldn't have sold myself down the river with no chance of redemption... If I had focused on the solution and not the problem, or the results. Choices. Big word. Beliefs. Another Big Word. I wish I would have chosen to act on my beliefs, and not out of revenge. Maybe my love bank had depleted without my having realized it? or maybe I wouldn't have been irrational if I hadn't loved her so much, and hadn't been so hurt by what she was doing? That sounds more like it... looking back on it all.

I know love is a choice... it seems like a made a choice to love her no matter what a long time ago... I can't see myself choosing otherwise without regret and extreme cause. I don't know, but when I said I do... I had every intention of meaning it... and now that I have an even broader understanding of just what I was commiting myself to, I plan to make good on that promise. With or without her. Am I crazy? backwards? DJ's and all that? I don't know.

Yeah... I've been doing a poor job at focusing on me... Still so darn intent on and off on "fixing the problem" by stopping her and not enabling myself. I was doing it before because I didn't think I was enough for her, so I guess I was unknowingly holding her to "her end of the bargain" because it circumvented that idea. make her feel guilty and she's sure to come running back, right? Ouch. This is me, sarcastically saying maybe I was right... maybe I'm a sad little man.



I was going to say that it appears she hasn't made the same choice. Yet, that would be a DJ I believe because I'm sure what I've done has been considered to be extreme by her.

I am compiling a music CD for her for what could our last anniversary on the 1st of the year. Along with that, I plan on writing her what could be one last long letter to let her know how I feel, and what conclusions I have come to. I've been compiling things I've said and written and discovered along the way to include in that... I think I need to take some more info from here as well.

You're right. I need to stand up for what I believe in, what I've been striving for. Stop assuming I'm not good enough. Even if she believes it, it's not true unless I work to that end. I need to stop taking the easy way out because I don't believe I'm going to accomplish anything great otherwise.

My focus has alot of the time been anywhere but where it needed to be. I need to work harder.

I hope my being does us both some good... I don't want to be the only one benefitting by all of this.

Taking a break again? I miss talking to you when you are gone. Talking about this with other people hasn't been beneficial for me... I seem to be able to do more with what you say for some reason... The complex, textbook examples you give me mesh well with my problem solving personality. Just handing me the answers prompts me to take the easy way out... I run with an easy answer and when it doesn't produce easy results I throw my hands up in the air and want to give up. I don't want to be lead astray, or confuse myself any more than I already am. I'm not sure what I'll do when you are gone yet...?

Maybe...

I'll wait for ya...you already know that.

heh.

I know that was not said in that context... I'm just trying to make light of things. :O)

I try to reach for God... but sometimes I need to remeber that simply asking for help and waiting for a reply isn't enough...

Hope you had a good Christmas. I went and watched DD open gifts, and got some of my own while I was there at WW's. No card, no big bow present this year, and WW didn't sign any of the tags. I'm not sure if it was the same thing last year or not. I did take notice though, and even though I was there I'm not sure how the event went... it felt surreal. Like the mood was constantly shifting... with mixed, hidden and or maybe fake emotions coming from her in waves. People are really complex... ans she seems to go beyond that most of the time. or maybe it's me? Don't know. My Christmas was ok. A mix of emotions to be sure.The best part was when DD opened her card. The card and the gift inside must have been just about everything she could have hoped for because I've never felt so much love from a simple hug and a thank you in all my life. It literally hit me like a wave of joy and I started crying right there. Best DD moment ever.

later.

I forgot to add something... looking back on the cake incident made me think of this, and knowing that DD got a gift card from OM's Mother for Christmas and that OM has been going to family occasions helped solidify it...

I think maybe WW has chosen not to love me and has chosen to love OM.

I'm trying anyway. What have I got left to lose.

Heaven help me, because I truly believe I've lost my Wife, my marriage and my family.

...

Inf,

Posting to you does help my life. Trust me on that.

And you didn't lose your wife, marriage and family...you rather put them aside earlier this year, didn't you? Going for honesty, not to break you down. When you really own what you do and don't do...your life experience gets better. Seems like it would be the opposite...it isn't.

My sympathy at losing your post...I ran into a clipboard problem (still do at times) and wondered if that was what you had...where you cut, refresh, paste...and look, nothing or the last post is there...not the one you wanted?

I applaud your commitment to re-create. Thank you.

As for signing or not signing the re-filed papers due to abandonment...you know this answer. If you are truly, absolutely re-committed to saving your marriage, then no, you cannot sign them. If you are not, however, and are allowing for flip-flopping based on your feelings, then I don't know what to tell you.

I can only see a fresh, new dedication with hard boundaries around yourself (and big consequences if you cross them again) to get you to where you can fully recover...whether your marriage does or not.

See, you didn't just repeat your pattern (which means you really don't understand why you keep choosing to cheat instead of change), you tanked all the effort you put into saving your marriage...a year's worth? A year and a half? In one sentence. Took two seconds to utter, didn't it?

Wow.

So your fresh dedication is really about you--who you really want to be, how you don't want to keep repeating, become a serial cheater (some may say you are now)...and keep bringing this heartbreak to yourself and others again and again.

I don't see where you were in Plan A and then Plan B...I might have missed it...but you were really reluctant to follow your separated Plan A with Plan B, weren't you? Which may be why you also tanked your shot at reconciliation...bred a lot of resentment, hunger for HER tears for once...and without counseling with the Harleys, not being here on the board, deciding really not to decide and act from a plan with timelines, all those decisions cost you in that one, unexpectedly moment, didn't they?

In your new plan...are you gonna put down the timelines, spend the money to get advice from the pros, ensure you keep posting and reading...so you really can change your life, your whole life this time?

I know you've rebelled against plans before...are you up to accepting your OWN plan, following it, even when you don't feel like it now?

"I've got this idea in my head that the things I'm doing now aren't going to be a fix, but more along the lines of a "going away present". Something for her to look back on later in life and be thankful for. After she's started a new life (with or without OM)... if she even thinks about all this after the fact."

I don't agree with your choice of thoughts, which are forming your perspective (your choice). You, after all this time...are still making this about her and not you. You can't make her remember, go away or stay...you can't know if she's really started a new life, will or won't...and yet you spend your time dwelling in her perspective, possible thoughts, future...how's the weather there? Is it even real?

What if you chose to give this last shot of your life with your WIFE, being her HUSBAND with all of you...acting from your beliefs, holding yourself to your plan...and doing the amends you have failed to do time and time again?

You watching your own self-care, self-honesty, as meticulously as you've watched your WW's actions, assumed her thoughts, feelings...divined her beliefs and perceptions...all that energy spent over there, abandoning yourself, leaving you to all your automatics...can feel like running in place.

You're not. Stop giving yourself permission to go into fantasy (where you have no control, never did or will).

Have you owned in letter form each step you took this past year which attacked your marriage anew, built your resentment into entitlement...owned your latest affair? This would be a letter you'd write and revised 20 separate times...probing deep for the truth...your highest honesty...maybe where you haven't gotten before...even here, with me.

You haven't chosen to see The Marriage as the entity you've vowed to honor and cherish for all the days of your life...and you haven't seen your own vows are about YOU...what you promised to yourself...because that's who you really wanted to be...to act from.

You haven't apologized and amended to YOURSELF all the terrible and destructive actions you've taken to hurt, degrade, discount or stomp yourself...have you?

I don't hear them...I hear that you can't enforce your marital boundaries because you don't hold yourself to them...and where you haven't learned to fight respectfully for your marriage, even with relatives, in-laws...friends. So you can't see their choices as just that...just more fodder for you to pull over your own eyes, live in that fantasy...and feel intense pain and fear from your choices.

Tell me, do you really believe you can beat yourself into being a better person? Can you thrash your marriage into coming back? Can you punish yourself enough to not be a serial adulterer for life?

Did a friend buy her the "how to get over your spouse" book after your last affair? The one this summer/fall?

You know...you experienced...well-meaning friends give advice, books, support in their way, who just wanted YOUR pain to stop...including SETTING YOU UP WITH A DATE WHEN YOU ARE MARRIED.

I rather they gave you a book than a woman, frankly.

Sure can understand why you want to point to all the bad support/advice/influence your WW allows in her life, though. Easier to look over there than right here, with how many of your friends were not and are not FRIENDS of your marriage.

Which is your choice...you control that door of influence...they don't.

About the person giving the book and her controlling your knowledge based on a DJ..."doesn't want you hating that person forever"...I sure hope you were clear-headed enough to own..."I know where it truly affects The Marriage is in your acceptance of the book, whether you choose to read it or not...not in who gave it to you. And I know there is no forever; that I will not hate OM forever, because it's a choice. And if it's unhealthy for our marriage, I know I will make it a goal to become INDIFFERENT to him. I've already achieved that with two APs now."

See, I still hear a lot of reactive immaturity in your post...where you're choosing to dwell, how your thoughts come one upon the other...and I've heard it from WW, through you...where you aren't living in God's design of humans...and therefore, you're making it up as you go.

Your poor DD...she's another year older and may be wiser than both her parents...how much counseling have you been attending with her to get her through this awful time? Are you in your highest honesty with her? Do you at least hold to some kind of parenting boundaries for yourself with her?

In that one sentence in which you destroyed your marriage anew...you also hurt your child, again. How much wreckage will it take? How many hearts have to hurt before you choose to stop, Inf?

"It seems before that she was angry and not making a concious decision about anything in our relationship. Just doing whatever made her feel good, which consisted of not thinking about things alot, and taking her hurt and anger out on me directly and indirectly. Conciously, and without realizing it at times. I wish I were still up that creek without a paddle."

I don't know how you know this...I wonder how much of it is projection...because I think you both did this, as we do when we do the earning love/punishment, that tit for tat. I don't understand why you want to be up that creek...still false intimacy, disrespectful and unreal...fantasy, right?

Disheartened is a feeling from you choosing to believe you're getting nowhere...sounds to me like you're reporting your feeling, not checking your belief it's coming from, and not reacting to it as if it's an omen or a portent.

You're choosing hope...and it's real...and choosing your goal. I believe you've been laughed at, that the sarcasm, comes from the justifying fog she's been under for nearly two years...which you solidified like cement when you shot her down...shot your marriage down...when your Plan A hit fruition...and there was a crack in the fog...and you saw your real W again...and slammed her to the ground.

You've both spent years slamming each other...with sarcasm (didn't you tell me you LIKED your own sarcasm?), with LBs galore...sure eases our fear of intimacy...and stimulates our fear of abandonment...back and forth...so that the ride becomes habit...the swing of the pendulum routine...expected...and accepted...back and forth. You each doing.

Which is why you STOPPING your half was key...took your weight off the pendulum, the routine...changed the dance, Inf. Did you really, though? On the outside, maybe? On the inside, you stayed in the habit...held DJs in your head, sarcasm, LBs...as if they wouldn't affect your marriage, your life, your choices?

They did, didn't they? Mightily.

About the cake incident...what did your DD learn? To hide things from you...hide the truth...not share with you her worries and concerns, because you're volatile, a mess, something to be lied to and controlled because of your destructive nature. What an absolutely perfect opportunity for you to have acted and not reacted...to have walked into the bathroom and said to your WW, "I saw the bday cake you made OM...DD showed it to me...she's really concerned...and I know you know how awful affairs are...I've betrayed you twice...so you know how making OM a cake, pretending he's part of your family when you are married, I am your husband...you are my wife...confuses our DD, hurts me to the bone as if that's exactly your goal. Your acts of love for OM outside our marriage has torn it up as badly as I just did this year.

I know we both know we choose to harm each other, our DD and our marriage through our choices."

Walk away. No violence (and that was domestic violence in my book). No reason to feel badly about yourself...locked into the fist of tit for tat, giving to get...breaking free so you can have REAL self-respect, bring reality, and be the person your DD will look up to...and not feel fear, shame or insecure around you.

You still feeling her hurt as your hurt...when you hurt her? Making sure you hit the spot with your AO's and DJ's, INf? You want to make sure she hurts worse than you? I don't get it...what about YOUR self-esteem, self-respect...which you threw away...and continue to do so...and you are the only one with the ability to build those?

Now I think I've gotten out of hand...

See, you don't know if your marriage will work out or not...even odds on it...what you do know is that you retaliate...you let yourself down again and again. Only you are responsible for you. And yes, if you don't get to your issues, your choices, you will experience this again in your life.

Not what you want. I believe that's not what you want, sincerely. You haven't examined or understood your false payoffs...and they will control your life. Will keep you acting contrary to what you really want because you don't uncover them inside yourself.

There are no shortcuts.

And when you would swear on your self-image it's not true, then own in the next breath it is true...you did these things...that to me is your self asserting, and your self-image losing it's shine.

It's tin and rust, Inf. Your real self shines with light and real love. Up to you to understand, to know the difference.

Only you.

This is your battle within yourself...yet you continually focus outward...understandable, not reasonable...harmful.

I don't believe your hurt will go away as long as you aren't owning how much you hurt yourself through your own betrayal. And choosing to dwell where you have no power...in her stuff, the future, the past.

Did you read on MB the Native American story about the young man asking the shaman about his inner struggle? The shaman answers...you have two wolves...one wolf is your love, honor, compassion and joy...the other wolf in you is your hatred, resentment, judgment...and the young man asks, "Which one will win?" and the shaman says, "Whichever one you feed."

Stop feeding your damaging villagers...stop permitting them to control your life. When you can say you are as kind, loving, compassionate to yourself as you are to others, then you will know which wolf will dominant your life.

Our actions feed our wolves. Amending the actions we took from our embittered, wishful, fantasy-living wolf helps the wolf we want to live become stronger.

I don't see your ownership. I don't see your amends. I see you all over the map and not looking inward, to your heart, your mind...and I don't see where you pursued at all another important relationship...which may be why you remain rudderless and reactive. The one with God, your creator...who has a lot of the answers you ask now...and have asked...and maybe that's who you would consider feeding awhile...your spiritual self. Admit you are powerless, adrift again...and you want to pick the real anchor now in your life?

Our resentment can feel like old iron...heavy, trustworthy, real...it's not how we want to live, is it? Our anger, our righteousness...may feel like power, like entitlement...when it's really our hunger for rightness, sureness of who we really are, distorted into external power, justification and retaliation, isn't it?

See where your own deceptive practices have gotten you...and where you really wanted to go. Those false payoffs are at work...when you end up looking over at where you thought you were going in the first place.

Takes a plan...and the choice, daily, to act to the plan, even when you feel it will fail...you pull yourself back to the plan, to this moment...to reality. You can't let go and let God if he isn't real...and sometimes, that's the only thing we have when we WANT to harm back, to bite and pound...and your violence has been a plague to you for a long, long time. Your real self has no violence...it's whole, complete, pure and marvelous. Your self-image must be defended, justified, proven love to and acknowledged for all it's efforts...regardless of the actions. It wants admiration for it's intent...doesn't accept consequences...owns nothing. It's tin and rust, Inf.

Funny thing about redemption...not in your control and solely in your control. Up to you to walk the road...can only be walked for YOU. There's always a chance for it...depends on who you're trying to receive it from whether you get there.

Head in the right direction, Inf. Be good to yourself instead of indulgent.

You nailed your core belief...that you're not enough...stop there...don't add "for her"...because that involves her. You don't believe you're enough. Choose a different belief to act from, 'k?

And your choice to look at the outcome...instead of your own stuff...your own love bank (only you CAN stay aware), even where your own focus is...solely your responsibility. When you continually act based on the possible outcome, you will repeat, repeat, repeat...whichs tears at you further, your life, your DD, your marriage.

When you honestly choose your acts from looking at your code...causes you to dwell where you have power...on your stuff...your goals...which is living in real responsibility and freedom. Then won't need to rebel against yourself...for it's your own code, which you write down, choose from, live by. It's yours. And you own it.

Outcomes come...no human can foresee all the consequences of a single action...ripples beyond our comprehension...keeps going. You can, however, choose your results...you can always see if your actions aligned to your code.

Sarcasm in your thoughts...how's that working for you? What you do to yourself, you will do to others. Would you like to hear all the sarcasm in your WW's thoughts, tearing at her very core? Ouch. Until you stop in your thoughts, find the false payoff for that lashing, you won't stop doing it to others...your DD, your WW...anyone.

And they will hurt as you do.

God gives you the choice to change, to stop, to start, every single moment. Keep trying to do it alone and you'll fail...we weren't made to be solitary beings...we were made from love, of love...which connects us all. Why not choose him, for a change? To begin your new shot at real changing?

You don't need to work harder...you need to dedicate yourself to awareness...even when your thoughts feel hijacked. You can control your thoughts, where you dwell, what you believe, perceive and view...all your power. Stop abdicating that power.

Why not write in your amends/ownership letter that you understand you have a lot of requirements to meet to honor your marriage...lots of changing...and that yours for her to reconcile won't take a question...can we try...it will also take actions...no contact with OM...(and if you're in contact in anyway with OW, you write that NC letter right this moment and copy your WW on it)...attending counseling sessions together...meaning you begin and she can join...and reading SAA, HNHN and Not Just Friends (Shirley Glass).

You can begin the 15 hours of UA even before rejoining...don't dwell there...know what it will take to recover...prepare for it...hold it in your heart. And know that every change you make in yourself IS NOT TO WIN HER BACK...it's for you, about you...and your half of the marriage.

Hold yourself to this plan, regardless of her choices.

You know you can catch every DJ...you showed that in the last of your previous post. You know you are ABLE to do all that Harley advises...nothing wrong with you.

Choices.

You didn't go to Alanon, did you? Would that be another step you would take on your road to personal recovery? Would you really do it this time...not flake out or procrastinate on? Would you take it on faith that others will help you, love you before you walk in the door? That they were where you were at one time or other?

'Cuz what I'm hearing is a man who is ready to admit he is powerless over his own life...that he is in chaos...and he's ready to learn a new way to live.

Why not make little notes on your bathroom mirror, your headboard, the dash of your car..."Focus On You" "You are loved" "How did you build your self-esteem today?"

Write out your code...simple list of the five more important things you can think of...

Honesty
Respect
Consideration
Appreciation
Faithfulness

and match your actions to your code...your boundaries...which go around yourself. Self-awareness is a habit you develop over time, by keeping your focus on you, your limits and real power...replaces your old habit of going through others to get to your self-image...instead, you go direct to your real self.

You can do this...you know you can. Self-discipline, which you've rebelled against, is the road to real freedom. It's what I believe you've been craving...an order in your universe...which isn't from the outside, squashing you...it's wholly on the inside, freeing you.

Every moment.

You'll stop that pendulum from swinging in such a wide arc, back and forth between extremes...like going from 0 degrees to 180 degrees...and discover the true top of the arc is 90 degrees...the apex...where we really live...in that middle ground.

Do this for yourself, Inf. You're worth it. You've always been and will always be worth it. Won't mean that you'll experience life as if you are...it's a choice you make.

Make it.

LA

P.S. Zach01 could really use your help, too.