Inf,
Posting to you does help my life. Trust me on that.
I'm glad to hear that... :O)
And you didn't lose your wife, marriage and family...you rather put them aside earlier this year, didn't you? Going for honesty, not to break you down. When you really own what you do and don't do...your life experience gets better. Seems like it would be the opposite...it isn't.


G:I seem to be stuck in a rut on that one... living by her distrust and ultimatums, and everything to do with OM. I wonder if it doesn't have to do with the fact that she had me living by them for the entire time that we were together before all of this took place. Not that I was forced to... Choices. Hey, I'm learning. heh. I did it because I love her and didn't mind if she took some emotional baggage out on me if it meant that we'd be together. Not to mention... I never saw myself commiting the offenses that broke the trust I had earned and would trigger the ultimatums that she temporarily rescinded on this year, only for me to go and break them again. Never say never I suppose.

My sympathy at losing your post...I ran into a clipboard problem (still do at times) and wondered if that was what you had...where you cut, refresh, paste...and look, nothing or the last post is there...not the one you wanted?


G: Stuff happens. It's the time I have to spend to make up for that loss that is a killer, though it gives me a chance to evaluate what was said and clarify my responses and learn something from them.

I applaud your commitment to re-create. Thank you.


G: I'll accept your applause after I've stayed commited and start seeing some more, concrete, results. Thank you though. I'm starting to better judge my own progress now and again because I'm not comparing it to the results I see or don't see in marriage. If I did that right now, I'd say I've already failed... but we'll pretend taht I didn't just say that... Though I somehow see you agreeing to do that with me? Pretend that is? :O)
As for signing or not signing the re-filed papers due to abandonment...you know this answer. If you are truly, absolutely re-committed to saving your marriage, then no, you cannot sign them. If you are not, however, and are allowing for flip-flopping based on your feelings, then I don't know what to tell you.
G: I'm totally committed to not signing them. I guess where I'm stumbling is in the idea that I don't when a divorce is appropriate, or if it ever is... or how I feel about any of that. To me, it's all about being able to fix what's broken and that's what I've been TrYiNg to be about all along. I don't believe divorce to be a solution, unless under the most extreme circumstances. ... I think I might have just answered my own question. I was going to ask what to do if the person that you are with doesn't believe the same thing, but that would have been a silly thing to ask... now wouldn't it. Maybe I do know what I believe... and that feeling has nothing to do with it. It seems so obvious after you say it... Wow.
I can only see a fresh, new dedication with hard boundaries around yourself (and big consequences if you cross them again) to get you to where you can fully recover...whether your marriage does or not.
G: I'd say that I hope that's foresight... a telling of things to come... but we won't go there, now will we. Is that really what you are getting from this? or am I just back and forth and wishy washy for reasons I have yet to discern other than maybe pulling out the eye for an eye card and not making the choice I should be making which is remembering that she can't step on me emotionally with her choices? Did that come out right? Sound like it was in tune with where I want to be?
See, you didn't just repeat your pattern (which means you really don't understand why you keep choosing to cheat instead of change), you tanked all the effort you put into saving your marriage...a year's worth? A year and a half? In one sentence. Took two seconds to utter, didn't it?
G: What do you mean by that? I thought I had repeated my pattern? I tanked alright... a year and a half's worth of work, all gone over acting on a single decision. Sad really. Kills me... in a figurative way.
Wow.
So your fresh dedication is really about you--who you really want to be, how you don't want to keep repeating, become a serial cheater (some may say you are now)...and keep bringing this heartbreak to yourself and others again and again.
G: Definitely. I never saw myself as even being able to make these decisions... yet here I am. Serial? I would argue that point. No, I really don't want this again... and wouldn't wish what I've gone through, or what I put her through on anyone ... but OM. I'm not even sure I could do that... I'd like to... but that's neither here nor there.
I don't see where you were in Plan A and then Plan B...I might have missed it...but you were really reluctant to follow your separated Plan A with Plan B, weren't you? Which may be why you also tanked your shot at reconciliation...bred a lot of resentment, hunger for HER tears for once...and without counseling with the Harleys, not being here on the board, deciding really not to decide and act from a plan with timelines, all those decisions cost you in that one, unexpectedly moment, didn't they?
G: I guess I really never did have a Plan other than planning to make things right, make me right, and make it all work. Putting a time frame on things is not something I'm prepared to do. I have it in my head that it's like saying... OK, if you don't take me back by such and such a date, then we're over whether I love you, or you love me or not. Espeically now that I found that it took this long just to get the first response that I wasted. I don't know. See. I'm not 100% on board with all of this. I'm fraid of the distrust. The ultimatums. Her rebellious attitude bread by the distrust. If I put a plan into action, she'll look at it as a form of control... and will dare me to do it so she can say I told you so when the crappy results come around the corner to great me. I've had a very hard time of working to keep us together in the past. She's so distrustful that she's willing to throw anyone and anything away to some extent if it's means keeping herself "safe".
I feel like I should have a Plan C given the special circumstances. One that says I can take as long as it takes so long as I do everything right to the best of my abilities. That's just half-arsing it I know. I'm torn. I'm trying not to be, but it'll take time... It's taken thsi long for me to get this far.With me you can't fast results, let alone miracles. I'm just that habitual, reserved and stubborn. Even when I'm trying not to be.
In your new plan...are you gonna put down the timelines, spend the money to get advice from the pros, ensure you keep posting and reading...so you really can change your life, your whole life this time?
G: I don't know how to respond to that other than to say I'll do my best... and I'll refrain from further comment for the sake of not beating myself up, feeling ashamed of what that could mean, or coming to the conclusion that I'm wasting your time or may as well give up now.
I know you've rebelled against plans before...are you up to accepting your OWN plan, following it, even when you don't feel like it now?
G: My OWN plan... I can stick to that, and work my butt off for that. That's a promise I can keep. This time.
"I've got this idea in my head that the things I'm doing now aren't going to be a fix, but more along the lines of a "going away present". Something for her to look back on later in life and be thankful for. After she's started a new life (with or without OM)... if she even thinks about all this after the fact."
I don't agree with your choice of thoughts, which are forming your perspective (your choice). You, after all this time...are still making this about her and not you. You can't make her remember, go away or stay...you can't know if she's really started a new life, will or won't...and yet you spend your time dwelling in her perspective, possible thoughts, future...how's the weather there? Is it even real?
G: Boy. It's like I made half of my journey, and then started walking in place and haven't stopped. To be quite honest, that about sums up alot of my life. For possibly a variety of reasons... no real surprise here... just frustration.
What if you chose to give this last shot of your life with your WIFE, being her HUSBAND with all of you...acting from your beliefs, holding yourself to your plan...and doing the amends you have failed to do time and time again?
G: Lord knows I try, but I keep falling back into old habits, or getting stuck in between. Getting in my own way. I feel confident though, that I can stick to this plan I'm following now... my larger concern is figuring out how to express love and fix a marriage with someone whom I only get to see for 20 minutes a week or less. If it was ridiculously hard before, it may be impossible now. I really don't know.
You watching your own self-care, self-honesty, as meticulously as you've watched your WW's actions, assumed her thoughts, feelings...divined her beliefs and perceptions...all that energy spent over there, abandoning yourself, leaving you to all your automatics...can feel like running in place.
G: We've had that discussion. You and I. Feels like old times. I really would like to not have to have it again.
You're not. Stop giving yourself permission to go into fantasy (where you have no control, never did or will).
G: I wonder if maybe I haven't been made so used to the idea of having "try to make it work" after being held accountable for 10 years for things I'd not even done... maybe I beat myself into submission and am still going... When she and I met, I was knew to relationships and ignorant to alot of life outside my own little corner of the world growing up... I was clay just waiting to be molded... and I'm not so sure that maybe my perspective on a few things wasn't skewed by seeing things when I was growing up... and beliefs that I've instilled in myself and that came from others that I adopted as my own... seems like alot of possible reconditioning I've still got ahead of myself...?
Have you owned in letter form each step you took this past year which attacked your marriage anew, built your resentment into entitlement...owned your latest affair? This would be a letter you'd write and revised 20 separate times...probing deep for the truth...your highest honesty...maybe where you haven't gotten before...even here, with me.
Not yet. I just finished a music CD project that I put together for her for our upcoming anniversary on the 1st of the year. I had planned on including the letter with it. She's made it known that she plans to refuse anything given to her that has to do with "love", and nothing but less than nice things to say about the Christmas card I gave her. Smiling at me and pretending to stick her finger down her throat... saying that she's had enough iwth love for a long time. I'm still plugging away... if she starts refusing the things I try to give her, that'll be frustrating. That's where I excel to the Nth degree. I'll make the extra effort not to let it get to me.
You haven't chosen to see The Marriage as the entity you've vowed to honor and cherish for all the days of your life...and you haven't seen your own vows are about YOU...what you promised to yourself...because that's who you really wanted to be...to act from.
G: I would love to. That sounds awesome. I guess I've been looking to her to put in an equal effort, and if she hasn't then I let it bother me. Not focusing solely on my part.
You haven't apologized and amended to YOURSELF all the terrible and destructive actions you've taken to hurt, degrade, discount or stomp yourself...have you?
G: Probably not, or rather what is probably happening is that I forgive myself. Then find a new or old reason to beat myself up and start the cylce again.
I don't hear them...I hear that you can't enforce your marital boundaries because you don't hold yourself to them...and where you haven't learned to fight respectfully for your marriage, even with relatives, in-laws...friends. So you can't see their choices as just that...just more fodder for you to pull over your own eyes, live in that fantasy...and feel intense pain and fear from your choices.
G: My family is all about not letting anyone walk all over them. I used to think they were living better lives than me... Now I'm regretting asking them for advice. They, and WW both say that I should listen solely to them... I need to start listening to myself instead.
Tell me, do you really believe you can beat yourself into being a better person? Can you thrash your marriage into coming back? Can you punish yourself enough to not be a serial adulterer for life?
G: No. I guess the anger, frustration, sadness, fear... all turn into... self resentment for the accusations thrown my way. More of the WW saying I'm responsible for her feelings. Hard not to go that way when she believes it, and I've been reacting that way since I met her because of old battles.
Did a friend buy her the "how to get over your spouse" book after your last affair? The one this summer/fall?
I believe so. Not to sure on a time frame there. I was just recently told that it happened. I believe I mentioned that she "drew the line" after I was gone on vacation with OW on our anniversary in Sept. I wanted to call. I thought she wanted me to, but I wasn't sure because she fed me a line to make it look like it was for my benefit. I could almost see the hidden intent, but I couldn't bring myself to believe it because she was still relying on OM for babysitting and money and spending large amounts of time with him.
You know...you experienced...well-meaning friends give advice, books, support in their way, who just wanted YOUR pain to stop...including SETTING YOU UP WITH A DATE WHEN YOU ARE MARRIED.
G: My family means well. I guess they are misguided though. Aren't alot of people these days though... or is that just everyone in some way, shape or form?
I rather they gave you a book than a woman, frankly.
G: I'd recommend that to them for next time, but there had better not be a next time.
Sure can understand why you want to point to all the bad support/advice/influence your WW allows in her life, though. Easier to look over there than right here, with how many of your friends were not and are not FRIENDS of your marriage.
G: Most of my family and friends haven't been friends of their own relationships and marriages, nor were their significant others. Wish I'd have have connected those dots before now. *groan*
Which is your choice...you control that door of influence...they don't.
G: Thanks for the solid reminder. Hopefully I won't need it again.
About the person giving the book and her controlling your knowledge based on a DJ..."doesn't want you hating that person forever"...I sure hope you were clear-headed enough to own..."I know where it truly affects The Marriage is in your acceptance of the book, whether you choose to read it or not...not in who gave it to you. And I know there is no forever; that I will not hate OM forever, because it's a choice. And if it's unhealthy for our marriage, I know I will make it a goal to become INDIFFERENT to him. I've already achieved that with two APs now."
G: I know I won't hate him forever... I'd like to for now. And I'd have a hard time not doing it if the marriage fails. I hadn't responded to the book. Planned on doing that in my letter as at the time the conversation went elsewhere and I was taken aback by that and left with nothing to say.
See, I still hear a lot of reactive immaturity in your post...where you're choosing to dwell, how your thoughts come one upon the other...and I've heard it from WW, through you...where you aren't living in God's design of humans...and therefore, you're making it up as you go.
G: I know. I think so much so often that I don't leave room to absorb new ideas. It's a pattern. I'm trying... seem to be doing better again now that I'm back here.
Your poor DD...she's another year older and may be wiser than both her parents...how much counseling have you been attending with her to get her through this awful time? Are you in your highest honesty with her? Do you at least hold to some kind of parenting boundaries for yourself with her?
G: She attends Banana Splits at school. WW gives DD her perspective... which is not helping in my opinion. I try to talk to her, but lightly because she's already had breakdowns from being caught in the middle. She's just starting to warm up to me again. Hoping to talk to her more.
In that one sentence in which you destroyed your marriage anew...you also hurt your child, again. How much wreckage will it take? How many hearts have to hurt before you choose to stop, Inf?

G : I do think about that... especially in regards to DD. I'm amazed at the things that I do, and that I can justify them as right at the time that I do them. I need to stop being so defensive...

"It seems before that she was angry and not making a concious decision about anything in our relationship. Just doing whatever made her feel good, which consisted of not thinking about things alot, and taking her hurt and anger out on me directly and indirectly. Conciously, and without realizing it at times. I wish I were still up that creek without a paddle."

... Why does garbage like that even come out of my mouth? <---- this sentence included. It's my perspective, and the way i interpret things according to the things she does, doesn't do, what she says and doesn't say. I'm not good at interpreting people. And, yeah, that was fantasy... Wishijng I hadn't blown an opportunity. Wanting things to be easier than they are now becuase I can't take back what I've done, and fixing it seems... anyway.

I don't know how you know this...I wonder how much of it is projection...because I think you both did this, as we do when we do the earning love/punishment, that tit for tat. I don't understand why you want to be up that creek...still false intimacy, disrespectful and unreal...fantasy, right?

I find that at times when I'm here... I'll get talking about things and all of a sudden the crud that I'm trying to purge myself of just starts spilling out onto the webpage. I'm reading it and thinking it at the time and catch myself feeling good at the time because I'm spilling all this crap that is running around in my head... like if I say it someone is going to "understand my pain and frustration" and "sympathize and comfort me in my time of need." Just so you know, I'm really not here to have someone tell me what I want to hear... even though if I didn't know better I'd sometimes have believing otherwise..

Disheartened is a feeling from you choosing to believe you're getting nowhere...sounds to me like you're reporting your feeling, not checking your belief it's coming from, and not reacting to it as if it's an omen or a portent.
You're choosing hope...and it's real...and choosing your goal. I believe you've been laughed at, that the sarcasm, comes from the justifying fog she's been under for nearly two years...which you solidified like cement when you shot her down...shot your marriage down...when your Plan A hit fruition...and there was a crack in the fog...and you saw your real W again...and slammed her to the ground.
You've both spent years slamming each other...with sarcasm (didn't you tell me you LIKED your own sarcasm?), with LBs galore...sure eases our fear of intimacy...and stimulates our fear of abandonment...back and forth...so that the ride becomes habit...the swing of the pendulum routine...expected...and accepted...back and forth. You each doing.
Which is why you STOPPING your half was key...took your weight off the pendulum, the routine...changed the dance, Inf. Did you really, though? On the outside, maybe? On the inside, you stayed in the habit...held DJs in your head, sarcasm, LBs...as if they wouldn't affect your marriage, your life, your choices?
They did, didn't they? Mightily.

G: Actually I'm kind of proud of myself in that respect... in regards to the sarcasm. I've toned it down quite alot. For a while WW was telling me I was no fun anymore and was never happy because I didn't joke around alll the time like I used to. Then she got past that I guess. I've slowly made some progress in regards to myself, which i know is what really counts and goes toward fixing the big picture. Have you ever spoken to anyone as persistant as i am when it comes to being stuck in the midle? I would think you'd have to get frustrated at some point... but then again if ti were I'm sure I would have the patience for me... and i don't know you personally per se, so saying that was probably totally unwarranted. I guess I was just thinking about how I'm not liking being stuck in the middle, but not having the fortitude to get myself out. Seems baby steps... are what I'm taking. I 've got to say that I'm glad that I'm going to stick to my guns about some things now. I really know that I can do this... not sign the paperwork, stop with the OW's. It's still kind of surreal that I did it and justified it by her actions, but whne I think about it... it's not surreal really, but detrimental to my life and the lives of others around me. I used to be praised for my strong moral fiber, good character, and respect of others... Now here I am cheating, forsaking my marriage, and hurting my family. Intense.

About the cake incident...what did your DD learn? To hide things from you...hide the truth...not share with you her worries and concerns, because you're volatile, a mess, something to be lied to and controlled because of your destructive nature. What an absolutely perfect opportunity for you to have acted and not reacted...to have walked into the bathroom and said to your WW, "I saw the bday cake you made OM...DD showed it to me...she's really concerned...and I know you know how awful affairs are...I've betrayed you twice...so you know how making OM a cake, pretending he's part of your family when you are married, I am your husband...you are my wife...confuses our DD, hurts me to the bone as if that's exactly your goal. Your acts of love for OM outside our marriage has torn it up as badly as I just did this year.

G: You just hit the nail on the head with tht statement. Having said that would have made me feel so much better. Solidified my beliefs. Instead I managed to solidify frosting on pants on my way out the door as I wiped it off... and on my car seat. And solidified my DD's belief that her Daddy is someone to be lied to in reagrds to OM, and that he has a temper. DD wasn't in the house for the incident, but WW told her about it. It would be nice if she were that honest with her all the time...

I know we both know we choose to harm each other, our DD and our marriage through our choices."

G: ... true.

Walk away. No violence (and that was domestic violence in my book). No reason to feel badly about yourself...locked into the fist of tit for tat, giving to get...breaking free so you can have REAL self-respect, bring reality, and be the person your DD will look up to...and not feel fear, shame or insecure around you.

G: Seems like I've been bullied my whole life... I've always been good at brushing it off, and seeing it for what it is. It really didn't seem to be a problem until I felt like WW was bullying me when we wre younger... couldn't wrap my head around the idea of someone pouring their heart to me one minute, then torturing me the next... and it was only torture because I would take everything she had and push myself to keep going. No walking away... thought I'd lose her. Couldn't have that. I was 16-17 back then, and fairly new to having a girlfriend.

You still feeling her hurt as your hurt...when you hurt her? Making sure you hit the spot with your AO's and DJ's, INf? You want to make sure she hurts worse than you? I don't get it...what about YOUR self-esteem, self-respect...which you threw away...and continue to do so...and you are the only one with the ability to build those?

G: Sometimes I forgive myself... soetimes I forget that I have. I'm either blaming noone, or everyone. Myself included. Other times I just don't myself as "enough". that's all me because I'm still finding reasons to not do this, or to do that... and havn't broken that vicious cycle. Tearing myself in every direction all the time... feels easier than doing the right thing because I've been doing it for so long.

Now I think I've gotten out of hand...

G: ???

See, you don't know if your marriage will work out or not...even odds on it...what you do know is that you retaliate...you let yourself down again and again. Only you are responsible for you. And yes, if you don't get to your issues, your choices, you will experience this again in your life.

G: No, it's not. You know that. I know that. So, why am i holding myself back... still? I know it's because of this situation, and fixation on it. It spills over into other aspects of my life. I see it, and make instantaneous changes without blinking. Then I come back to this and I'm all about the carnage.

Not what you want. I believe that's not what you want, sincerely. You haven't examined or understood your false payoffs...and they will control your life. Will keep you acting contrary to what you really want because you don't uncover them inside yourself.
There are no shortcuts.

G: I really am not sure what to say at this point. I'm making progress, but I know that it's not to my full potential. I know there will be consequences... results formed from my actions... and I'm sitting here literally stunned because I don't know how to beat this. It's almost like I just had a mental shutdown for a minute there because I know that I won't be able to go full blown with all of this anytime soon. I will continue to make baby steps because I'm not forcingmyself to make this decision... I'm deathly afraid of it. Knowing that and trying to face it as much as I will allow myself is going to have to be enough until i can take a few more baby steps, or make another large leap in the right direction. I know I could be doing worse, and I could be doing better... and i really don't know what to say beyond that. I'd apologize, but I know I shouldn't... that's nothing more than a cop out. I may as well that I can't do it when i know better... but FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE.... I don't know why I'm allowing myself to refuse to make this choice either. I'm in a mental deadlock over it, and I can't wrap my head around why. I promise you I am pushing myself... if I wasn't, I woudln't have gotten this far, and wouldn't feel like I have strong accomplishemtns to be proud of.... I know I've asked yo to bear with me before... I know you willl, even when you don't know what else to say. Thank you for that.

And when you would swear on your self-image it's not true, then own in the next breath it is true...you did these things...that to me is your self asserting, and your self-image losing it's shine.
It's tin and rust, Inf. Your real self shines with light and real love. Up to you to understand, to know the difference.
Only you.
This is your battle within yourself...yet you continually focus outward...understandable, not reasonable...harmful.
I don't believe your hurt will go away as long as you aren't owning how much you hurt yourself through your own betrayal. And choosing to dwell where you have no power...in her stuff, the future, the past.

G: I know these things. you know i do. Beyond that I don't know what to say other than wht has already been said. I can't even find the wrods to describe how I feel right now. Other than to say stunned realization... harsh acceptance... vast internal struggle. It's like going everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

Did you read on MB the Native American story about the young man asking the shaman about his inner struggle? The shaman answers...you have two wolves...one wolf is your love, honor, compassion and joy...the other wolf in you is your hatred, resentment, judgment...and the young man asks, "Which one will win?" and the shaman says, "Whichever one you feed."
Stop feeding your damaging villagers...stop permitting them to control your life. When you can say you are as kind, loving, compassionate to yourself as you are to others, then you will know which wolf will dominant your life.
Our actions feed our wolves. Amending the actions we took from our embittered, wishful, fantasy-living wolf helps the wolf we want to live become stronger.

G: I think both of my wolves are binging and purging at mixed times. Hope that didn't offend... seemed appropriate.

I don't see your ownership. I don't see your amends. I see you all over the map and not looking inward, to your heart, your mind...and I don't see where you pursued at all another important relationship...which may be why you remain rudderless and reactive. The one with God, your creator...who has a lot of the answers you ask now...and have asked...and maybe that's who you would consider feeding awhile...your spiritual self. Admit you are powerless, adrift again...and you want to pick the real anchor now in your life?
Our resentment can feel like old iron...heavy, trustworthy, real...it's not how we want to live, is it? Our anger, our righteousness...may feel like power, like entitlement...when it's really our hunger for rightness, sureness of who we really are, distorted into external power, justification and retaliation, isn't it?

G: I think I have my beliefs in that area figured out... but you're right... I've been neglecting that relationship because I'm much too focussed on another one to pay attnetion to much of anything else... well sort of. I have been working heavily on my relationship with DD. Big payoffs there. have to give myself credit for that. I stumble... like with the cake. It's going well though. She called me at work today... that was quite the surprise! A big step as far as I'm concerned... usually she refuses to talk, let alone call... claiming she doesn't want to because it's boring.

See where your own deceptive practices have gotten you...and where you really wanted to go. Those false payoffs are at work...when you end up looking over at where you thought you were going in the first place.
Takes a plan...and the choice, daily, to act to the plan, even when you feel it will fail...you pull yourself back to the plan, to this moment...to reality. You can't let go and let God if he isn't real...and sometimes, that's the only thing we have when we WANT to harm back, to bite and pound...and your violence has been a plague to you for a long, long time. Your real self has no violence...it's whole, complete, pure and marvelous. Your self-image must be defended, justified, proven love to and acknowledged for all it's efforts...regardless of the actions. It wants admiration for it's intent...doesn't accept consequences...owns nothing. It's tin and rust, Inf.
Funny thing about redemption...not in your control and solely in your control. Up to you to walk the road...can only be walked for YOU. There's always a chance for it...depends on who you're trying to receive it from whether you get there.
Head in the right direction, Inf. Be good to yourself instead of indulgent.

G: I have some relearning to do. Some rediscovering of myself... I think maybe I let go of my way of life and my beliefs because I didn't know how to handle WW's lashing out at me. How could someone lash out at you when they say they love you, and for no discernable reason... I "had to be doing something wrong"... and since all I was doing was being me and following my beliefs.... that's what I stopped. Instead I dopted apolicy of standing up for myself through groveling, losing my temper when that didn't work, and ignoring all of that when the calm before the next storm came because I couldn't waste a moment of it. looking back on all of that... I did it all backwards and helped to make a mess of myself and my relationship... but I either didn't know any better, or thought it would get better (which it did drastiaclly). It was internal struggle between hanging onto what I believed in, vs giving it all up for her because I wasn't seeing or knowing about the other option... which was to keep it and share it with her, just in different ways than i had tried. I was Ignorant, and not social by any stretch of the imagination, and when I was it could have been considered awkward at best if the connection between myself and another indivdual got too in depth.


You nailed your core belief...that you're not enough...stop there...don't add "for her"...because that involves her. You don't believe you're enough. Choose a different belief to act from, 'k?
And your choice to look at the outcome...instead of your own stuff...your own love bank (only you CAN stay aware), even where your own focus is...solely your responsibility. When you continually act based on the possible outcome, you will repeat, repeat, repeat...whichs tears at you further, your life, your DD, your marriage.
When you honestly choose your acts from looking at your code...causes you to dwell where you have power...on your stuff...your goals...which is living in real responsibility and freedom. Then won't need to rebel against yourself...for it's your own code, which you write down, choose from, live by. It's yours. And you own it.
Outcomes come...no human can foresee all the consequences of a single action...ripples beyond our comprehension...keeps going. You can, however, choose your results...you can always see if your actions aligned to your code.
Sarcasm in your thoughts...how's that working for you? What you do to yourself, you will do to others. Would you like to hear all the sarcasm in your WW's thoughts, tearing at her very core? Ouch. Until you stop in your thoughts, find the false payoff for that lashing, you won't stop doing it to others...your DD, your WW...anyone.
And they will hurt as you do.

G: I had it all figured out at one point, but lost it... I'm glad that I'm getting it back piece by piece.

God gives you the choice to change, to stop, to start, every single moment. Keep trying to do it alone and you'll fail...we weren't made to be solitary beings...we were made from love, of love...which connects us all. Why not choose him, for a change? To begin your new shot at real changing?

G: you know, to tell the truth I've always been a "God helps those that help themselves" kind of guy. that and I believe in unanswered prayers... and anytime I had a religious discussion with anyone, I've found it hard to agree with certain things that seem to be pretty standard stuff... and people in our church weren't always knowledgble enough to have a quality conversation with. Some of them were more eager to get discouraged with you, tell you you were wrong, or just point out that "the bible says this" and assume that made everything clear. So i tried to figure things out based on experiences. I don't think i did too bad... unles sit comes to carrying it over into my everyday life... in which case i can only say that I'm human and make my share of mistakes. my perspective doen't deviate from the norm much at all the way I see it, and I do make efforts to stay in touch with God... but I'm not open about that... as I'm not real open about any of my relationships. It feels more personal that way.

You don't need to work harder...you need to dedicate yourself to awareness...even when your thoughts feel hijacked. You can control your thoughts, where you dwell, what you believe, perceive and view...all your power. Stop abdicating that power.
Why not write in your amends/ownership letter that you understand you have a lot of requirements to meet to honor your marriage...lots of changing...and that yours for her to reconcile won't take a question...can we try...it will also take actions...no contact with OM...(and if you're in contact in anyway with OW, you write that NC letter right this moment and copy your WW on it)...attending counseling sessions together...meaning you begin and she can join...and reading SAA, HNHN and Not Just Friends (Shirley Glass).
You can begin the 15 hours of UA even before rejoining...don't dwell there...know what it will take to recover...prepare for it...hold it in your heart. And know that every change you make in yourself IS NOT TO WIN HER BACK...it's for you, about you...and your half of the marriage.

G: I had written the majority of that previously, only varying slightly... I plan to reaffirm that again. the question nagging at me the most is... how do you express remorse, regret, sadness, and the need to change, correct past mistakes and make amends when A) you've made one of the biggest marrital mistakes 2 times in a row in such a short amount of time. B) have no way to make up for that other than with words when you get 10 to 20 minutes a week C) your WW isn't necessarily going to accept a letter from you, and refuses to hear what you have to dsay about your relationship in any way shape or form during that time. I'm at a loss and could use some suggestons. i'm not trying to make this sound hopeless, but from where I am I see a definite barrier.

Hold yourself to this plan, regardless of her choices.

G: I'm officially making a commitment to myself to hold myself to my plan as it unfolds this time. No more saying I will, only to allow myself excuses to back out. I'm starting with the refusal to sign the paperwork, and the letter and CD.

You know you can catch every DJ...you showed that in the last of your previous post. You know you are ABLE to do all that Harley advises...nothing wrong with you.

G: I do catch them... I'm glad for that. But usually it's after the fact... and saying you're sorry sometimes isn't enough, or proving that you can change is difficult when you are disproving that and it gets noticed. I forgive myself, and try to learn from it.

Choices.

You didn't go to Alanon, did you? Would that be another step you would take on your road to personal recovery? Would you really do it this time...not flake out or procrastinate on? Would you take it on faith that others will help you, love you before you walk in the door? That they were where you were at one time or other?
'Cuz what I'm hearing is a man who is ready to admit he is powerless over his own life...that he is in chaos...and he's ready to learn a new way to live.

G: I've been looking into new churches... tought that maybe taking up counseling with a good minister might be a good place for me to start. Seems that maybe forgetting to have faith in myself and life is a place where i am lacking and getting closer to God and a religious community would be a good start to helping me. I need to start talking to people with a better perspective and beliefs similar to what I would like to believe ar my own. Not taking advice from people that are trying to hook me up with OW's.

Why not make little notes on your bathroom mirror, your headboard, the dash of your car..."Focus On You" "You are loved" "How did you build your self-esteem today?"
Write out your code...simple list of the five more important things you can think of...
Honesty
Respect
Consideration
Appreciation
Faithfulness
and match your actions to your code...your boundaries...which go around yourself. Self-awareness is a habit you develop over time, by keeping your focus on you, your limits and real power...replaces your old habit of going through others to get to your self-image...instead, you go direct to your real self.

Started a journal of sorts... but had a hard time tackling the execution because writing to myself proved difficult and I'm a bad note taker. gonna give it another go.

You can do this...you know you can. Self-discipline, which you've rebelled against, is the road to real freedom. It's what I believe you've been craving...an order in your universe...which isn't from the outside, squashing you...it's wholly on the inside, freeing you.
Every moment.

G: You're telling me.

You'll stop that pendulum from swinging in such a wide arc, back and forth between extremes...like going from 0 degrees to 180 degrees...and discover the true top of the arc is 90 degrees...the apex...where we really live...in that middle ground.
Do this for yourself, Inf. You're worth it. You've always been and will always be worth it. Won't mean that you'll experience life as if you are...it's a choice you make.
Make it.
LA

G: I don't know how this statement should be evaluated.... Being angry, sad, hurt, scared... isn't as traumatizing anymore... it's almsot like just going thorugh the motions after 2+ years of it. the same thing goes for expecting my marriage to fail right now... sometimes I catch myself saying that I know it will fail and that life will go on because that's what life does... and then just going back to whatever I was doing because fighting life would be pointless and I really don't have control over WW or anyone else but myself and I'm not doing a 100% satisfactory job of mastering that. but I do catch myself, and those instances are very rare. I have felt very rejuvenated and on the road to a clearer focus and perspective since coming back here again. being here can only bring good into my life... it seems right.
I think a break did me good, because I've come back able to absorb more than before... but i should have come back sooner. Say right before Spring. that would have ben ideal. yet, I don't know that it would have fixed anything. No sense in dwelling on things like that I'd say. gotta keep my focus where it belongs.

thanks again, LA.

Talk to yuo soon.

Excuse the spelling mess. this keyboeard is not my usual and I had no time to correct errors. Also, I tried to break up my stuff with the G: to differentiate posts so this would be easier to follow since there is so much of it... but when i copied it to Yahoo email to finish it all so it didn't time out, it grouped together... Then, I used the inital of my first real name to denote my posts, instead of I: I used G:. Oops.s that's not givng too much away I suppose.

G; I could offer some tips, and share some experience... but really don't feel that I'm in a place right now to give out the advice you give to me. maybe it would be a bit easier being on the outsiede looking in a case like this, but I;'m not very well educated in all of this either. I'm still learning and taking things in... I guess going with the flow and seeing where it takes me would be a good approach. I'll have to find this Zach01's posts when i get a chance. I'll try to make it soon.

P.S. Zach01 could really use your help, too.