i recently posted this under "forgiveness" because i too am a betrayed spouse/divorce survivor....my X ran off with a married guy...long story short they are both now married to each other!....

im now struggling with the forgiveness issue...very HARD STRUGGLE for me...

[color:"red"] [/color]
in reading your post...you are deffinatly NOT alone with this....i only wish i would have known about this website during my tough times...not that it may have made a difference in the long run, but the support would have been AWESOME....

hang in there....it does get easier and life does go on!!!

(this is the part i wanted to copy...im not very computer literate!!! ;-) )

sometimes knowing what the right thing to do and actually doing it is so damn hard...

i know i am better off now financially...

i know i have a better relationship with my kids now than i ever have...

i know i will be much better off in the future....

i know the odds of my X affair re-marriage surviving and being happy are pretty slim....

i know i have a woman in my life now that LOVES me for who and what i am....

i know i wasnt perfect and tried my hardest to save my marriage....

I KNOW I NEED TO FORGIVE MY X, i say the words but i lack the feelings....this is my struggle....

i know what i need to do...doing it with meaning and meaning what i do..(i like that! ;-) ) is the hard part...

yes...i WAS victimized...but i need to stop feeling like a victim, because in reality...she SOOOO traded down!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That is exactly it Sturgis.

My H (the guy before the A) was amazing. Honest, hardworking, kind, a great dad and husband. I had the best. That guy is gone. Hopefully, not forever. But, if he ends up with the OW, he traded down and she is getting my scraps because whe will never have the Honest, kind, hardworking, great dad and husband that I had. She will have the Liar, cheater, dad who hurts his kids rather than give up the A, and the husband who left his wife of 18 years to be with a mirage. She can have that guy. I want my H. I won't accept anything less than my H and she can never have anything more than a WH.

God will take care of me and my kids. The devil has both hands on my H but he won't get me or my children. I pray every day for my H to return to God and ultimately to his family, but if he doesn't, God knows best and He won't expose me to the constant barage of fogspeak and anger and humiliation that my WH gave me.

Update on the Plan A battleground.

WH calls me tonight to accuse me of not paying a bill. I told him that the bills are being payed and the kids are being taken care of. He started to get angry about the amount of money he is going to have to give me every month. I told him that I don't want to discuss the divorce with him and that if he wants to discuss the kids or how to get along then I am willing but the divorce talk is for the lawyers. He said that I am going to drag this out and pay the lawyers all kinds of money. I just reexpressed by decision to not talk about divorce with him. He said that his lawyer is going to give an offer that I would be a fool to turn down. Whatever. I told him that since he left, he is just going to have to trust me in that the bills are being payed. He asked me if I was taking care of the house since it is still half his. I just told him that I am taking care of everything and everybody and doing a very good job of it. He said that I am not taking care of the everything because he is still around. I told him that he left the house and that is where we all are. He said that he doesn't see the kids suffering with it. I told him that they are suffering. Whether he likes it or not, they are suffering. He quickly got off the phone then. I tried to stay positive and not fall into old patterns. I think I did OK. What do you think?

The fat lady hasn't begun to sing yet.
Loni

i read your response....the angle i am coming from is one that the marriage was NOT saved...just so i make that clear...im angry at my X, not marriage in general...ok...

i read a book by dr. homer mcdonald...he is a psyc that wrote a book called "stop your divorce, even if you are the only one trying"....its on the internet...its worth every penny...deals alot with human nature, self esteem, irrational behavior etc...

several principals came out of it...doing EXACTLY what you did...small talk/happy talk...bills...kids..etc..NOTHING discussed about divorce....

it creates a major power shift....he talks about predictable human nature...if you read the book...you'll shake your head and realize as i did how many stupid mistakes i made acting hurt and needy...

oh boy...if you REALLY wanna freak out your husband...go on a date!!! not sleep around, not fall in love, just DATE!!!

anyway...long story short...my marriage was SALVAGABLE...and the advice from this book worked...but after 1 1/2 yrs of being seperate and SHE in a fog for that long...I CHOSE NOT TO GO BACK...

whether or not that will ultimatley be your decision, your cards still have to played out ....but i do have a great faith in God, and i truely believe in "unanswered prayers"...

i had some issues i had to deal with in my personal life that would have remained unresolved if the affair and divorce didnt happen...the MOST important was my relationship with my kids...yes as i said before...my X most deffinatley traded down...she has been married for less than 6 months and she told me the other day...how much she regrets and feels guilty about her actions...

im sorry to say though...even though i got the "reaction/admission" i was looking for for a long time...it still broke my heart.

just continue to keep kids a priorty, small talk/happy talk with husband, KEEP YOU SELF ESTEEM in tact!!! (this is the most important) if YOU feel sexy, you will LOOK sexy...and if you look sexy....... HE WILL NOTICE!!! ;-)

make him jealous....it'll kill him!!! (trust me..im a man!!) ;-)

hang in there!!!

Thanks Sturgis,

I'm sry that your M didn't work out. But I never give up hope. That's one of my strong/weak points, depending on the perspective. Maybe, someday, with a lot of healing and forgiveness, you and your XW might build a new and different relationship. Whether romance is involved or not.

As for the dating, I don't really want to but I am going to let my WH think about it. He doesn't really need to know where I am when he has the kids. When he comes to get them, I will be dressed to the nines and he can just wonder. If he asks, I am going out with a "friend". Nuff said.

I have noticed that the more together I am, the more he falls apart. So I am going to be more "together" then I ever have.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Loni

Loni,
I read your posts and I feel like I could have written them for the most part. Even down to the part where your daughter "doesn't want to hear it". I've heard the same thing from both of my kids. I don't try to discuss this with them but there are times when I sigh or say I can't believe this is happening! How can it really be happening? I look at the valentine's card that he gave me last month -so full of love and I wonder how is this happening??? I want him to be MISERABLE with these sinful choices he's making. I'm miserable why should he be happy as a result of causing all of us so much pain? I want God to bring him down to his knees no matter what it takes. I want my WH to KNOW that whether God is important to him now or not- God still sees everything he's doing and is angry about it. I dont want to be divorced either. My WH is still living with me but our house is for sale and he wants to leave as soon as it sells. He told me this morning he wanted to buy a condo -he heard an add on the radio. It HURT so bad I couldn't not cry and pathetically begged him to remember that he loves me and I love him and how sad that seems for us to get a divorce. He tells me he's still in love with me but is tired of fighting all of these desires in him for other women- lesbians (what's up with that one?) etc. He wants to live guilt free without me and do whatever he wants. He's also hoping that if he moves out the girl at work that he's also in love with will want to start something with him. He's so infatuated he's talked to me about marriage and a baby with her. He's so cruel. The thought of him with a baby that I didn't have with him KILLS me!!!!!!! Especially since I had wanted another one. I guess I had some venting to do this morning.

Just know that I understand exactly how you feel and I have been praying for you everyday. My pastor said I should pray 1st for conviction and repentance from WH as well as a TRUE saving relationship with Jesus but if that is not going to happen he wants me to pray that I will lose my love for WH. He's worried about me and feels that I'm at the end of what I can handle this time.
Maybe you should pray the same thing? Your heart is so broken and if your husband is not going to turn around you need to heal. Always have hope though- he could absolutely turn around- only God knows.

Karen

i think the "date" idea is great...for multiple reasons but i'll give you the major ones...

i does wonders for your self esteem and confidence..as a BS my self esteem was in the tank for quite awhile, although i took advice and went out with a few different women, they were very "plutonic" dates...coffee, movies...etc.

even if you go out with a girlfriend, the fact he dosent know...will accomplish the same thing!

the second reason is once you stop feeling like a victim and get some independence back, your whole demeanor changes...whether you agree or not...we are "human animals" and in the animal kingdom...the "weak get eaten"..(i love analogies) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> sooooo stay confident and "cocky"!

also...it sounds like saving your marriage is a priority so keep doing the small talk/happy talk etc...

its VERY hard to fight with someone who is not fighting back and very hard to be MEAN to someone who is being nice..

be NICE BUT FIRM, not WEAK!!!

hope this helps!

Hi Sturgis,

I am doing so much better than I have been doing. It is much easier to be firm and calm when you know that you will be OK regardless of the outcome. The fear is gone and with it goes the inability to stand up for yourself.

The worst happened. He left, filed for divorce and refuses to stop it. Guess what, I am still standing. It didn't kill me. In fact, God is using this situation to make me a better woman. In the end, I will be a winner.

I am doing the "date" for sure. Let him wonder what I am doing.

By the way, H tried to tell me to get Sims Online off of the computer because I don't need to be wasting my time playing a game. I calmly told him that he gave up the right to tell me what to do. He then asked if I was taking care of the house since it's still half his. I calmly told him that I am doing a great job taking care of EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY. nuff said.

Thanks sturgis, by the way, are you in michigan?
Loni

Loni:

Read up on PLAN A. It involves demonstrating to your WH that you do not want a divorce and that you can meet HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS...

In terms of "dating", I hope you mean "dating" your WH and NOT giving him the impression that you are "dating" someone else. That would be a major mistake.

Please make sure to get a better understanding of PLAN A by reading on this site and the book SURVIVING AN AFFAIR...

hi...no not from michigan...YUCK!! im orig from cinci but live is socal for past 25 yrs...

anyway...i know the dating thing causes some stir...i truely believe human nature is very predictable and creating alittle honest to goodness jealousy works wonders...ive seen it, used it and it DOES work...

its not "manipulating" someone, but causing a power shift...again...i know what plan A and plan B are, i didnt know about them when i went through my situation but used a "homemade" variation....i ultimatley got want i wanted although my marriage paid the price...

my story is...i made two conscience decisions...the first was to SAVE my marriage...the second obviously was to come out of this situation Ok physically and financially...

i heard all the bull about why my X cheated...i wasnt there enuff....i didnt treat her like a princess enuff....i didnt love her enuf..."i love you but im not in love with you"...so on...ALL OF THIS AFTER SHE WAS KNEE DEEP IN AN AFFAIR!!

soooooo....i was a broken down man....was married 15 yrs...was turning 40....to be honest...im a "macho" cop... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> but i was scared to death of the "unknown"...as anyone in this position is....

i got some self help books, including HNHN, but my X was not remotley interested in counselling of staying in marriage...i tried to live in the situation for 4 months and couldnt take it anymore...it was like i "just woke up" one day and said "im out of here"....i moved out...

didnt phase her....2-3 weeks after i moved out, she started wearing a "promise ring" from this dude...(yeah and she was 37 yrs old at the time!!!)

i did it all...prayed...cryed....boozed...i hate to admit it but "slept around" quite abit....THAT was a huge mistake...looking back...but hey...that what makes us human...life experience...

anyway...i would not file for divorce...i can actually remember the stages i went through...its like mourning a death...time has a way of healing....i hardened....there was aperiod that i would give my life to have saved my marriage....but time hardened me and when SHE finally made overtures....i was too far gone....i DID not want to go back...

that being said....the divorce went through and she married her affair partner....

for a long time, i have harbored alot of anger towards her...as i said before...i know im soooo much better and will be better in the long run....

but......the reason i am even on this website is learning to forgive....and truely forgive her...that is still the hard part....

the road we travel is not an easy one...doing the "right" thing is always the hardest part...

i look at things from obviously a "mans" perspective...it is alot easier being a divorced bachelor man at 42 now than being a divorced "mom"...life just deals those cards...fair or not...so my motivation was to protect my family and protect myself....

i can tell you how I would react as a man, placing myself in your husbands shoes....

through history...men have been able to "love" many women on almost an equal basis at the same time...(herrems, mistresses, multiple wives etc)....it seems unfair, but i DO believe it much harder for a woman to love more than one man at a time...im talking true love...not lust...

so i read the difference of opinions that a woman will give you verses what a man may give....

there comes a time when the "victimized" need to stop being a victim, and stand upo for themselves....

it sounds like you are doing just that very thing....

the fact is he sounds like he is looking for a reason to "hate" you and blame you...the house, bills, divorce settlement..etc...

continue to be nice but firm, start to get on with your life...being NEEDY, or CLINGLY...of broken down and broken spirited are VERY UNATTRACTIVE especially from a mans point of view!!!

a confident, sure, sexy woman IS SOOOOO much more attractive...just remember this.....

list your priorities and keep them in perspective...

1. KIDS (most important)
2. your health
3. your self esteem
4. your financially well being

lastly your husbands feelings....like it or not...there are no rules in love and sometimes the "greatest hand in poker, is not the cards dealt you, its the ability to bluff your opponent" (i love analogies) play your cards smartly...and ALWAYS keep your cool around your kids and husband!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sturgis,

Thanks for sharing your sitch with me. I know that you have been through a rough time but with God's grace, you made it through. As for forgiveness, make the choice that forgiveness is more about not holding your XW to account. About not making her pay her debt to you. You don't have to forget what happened and you never have to feel good about it or about your XW even. Just letting the debt be forgiven.

I was born and raised in SoCal. I miss it like crazy.

Mimi,

I am reading plan a and not making any plans for "dates". I do know that my WH doesn't think I will ever give up on him and it has made him pretty cocky. The more he thinks that I am capable of moving on, the more he sees me as independant, confident and assurred. All positives in his book. I don't want a relationship with anyone other then my God and my H. But, thank you for the pointer. I will read more and keep up the plan A.

By the way, I am having a pretty sad time right now. I miss my H very much and filling out all of the forms for Friend of the Court and my lawyer are pretty depressing. I keep thinking about happier times and how it is so close to being over for our M. I think about how my H was and how awful the WH is. My prayers continue for God to speak to my H all day and come to his dream all night. I also praise Him for allowing me to travel this road even though it is the hardest thing I ever had to do. I praise Him for the wonderful people He has brought into my life and how He is making me a better woman throughout this ordeal.

God is Good,
Loni

So how about inviting your H over for a dinner and a movie-without the children?..A DATE.....

BTW...check out ark's thread on PLAN A TIPS....

its been cold and rainy the last couple weeks here...i LOVE it...im a four season guy!!

anyway....in my opinion...the "date" idea is pretty good, i remember, about 4 months into my seperation my X and i had a very romantic date, that actually lasted about 2 days...it was VERY close to reconciliation at the time...but sadly....she wasnt emotionally ready at the time...but it was great none the less...

we kept it very "happy"...no relationdship talk, no blaming...just enjoyed each others company, like "old times"...

just plan it right with no interuptions, so you guys can enjoy your time....

***just a word of caution...if the mood changes or some tension starts...."run for the hills"....if it gets too out of hand, you will lose all your gains and he may see you as still being needy and that what ever he "blamed' you for he may just think "she hasnt changed" and move farther away...

otherwise...have fun with it...just dont expect too much movement at first other than just "enjoying' each others company!!

oh yeah...and thanks for the words on "letting go"...its actually been amazing how just being on a website like this the past couple of weeks and having some good interaction with people that KNOW EXACTLY where im coming from, deffinatley helps...

i know forgiveness is an "act of will"...thats what makes it sooooo hard!!

I don't know about asking him on a date. How? To do what? He wouldn't go out with me when we still lived together. What about asking him over for a video and pizza with me and the kids on a night that he isn't usually with them?

I'm feeling pretty sad today. I was filling out all the paperwork for the lawyer and friend of the court. It is so depressing to see the life we built together be all left to several pages of numbers and dates. I guess that is just the way it goes. Just sad that there isn't anywhere to list all the happiness and shared memories and joyful times. I was so angry at my WH for putting me through this and causing so much pain in our lives. Now I am just sad.

I will read up on Ark's Plan a tips. Thanks
Loni

Not with you and the kids...not pizza..his favorite meal...

"I've been missing you..just want to spend some time with you with no relationship talk.."

It's worth a try. If he says no, say "Alright..no big deal..click..."

do you go to the gym??? i go at least 4 days a week...the treadmill is a GREAT place to think...plus its a great stress reliever...plus the added benefits of self esteem and physical fitness....STRESS KILLS!!

i see your sad today....i know its pretty hard at times...been there too....

whats the worst thing he can say to you if you call him and ask him on a "date"...no??? well, would that really hurt ya after everything you have already been through??? im inclined to say a resounding...NOT!!!

i take the position that you cant force someone to love you...you can work hard to try and save your marriage but eventually you need to ask yourself...."at what price am i willing to pay"? when your spent physically, emotionally, kids is shambles???

not me....i tried hard and then hardened myself....we believe in God...i havent found anything in the bible that says i have to "reconcile" with a wayward spouse...quite the contrary...but thats my view...God dosent force "us" to love him...its a CHOICE...relationships are the same...

right is right and wrong is wrong.....all you can do is try your hardest...if your wayawrd husband turns you down....

what more can you do???

take a good accounting of yourself...acknowledge your mistakes...take efforts to correct any destructive behavior in your life that you need to be accountable for...

listen to some good music...i liked "broken road" by rascal flats....life has a way of taking care the broken hearted...

Ii dont believe in begging, chasing, being needy or letting someone else have so much power over my self esteem that they dictate my self worth....

keep up the good work...IMHO you sound lke your on the right path...(im sure my opinion differs from many here) but in the long run without sounding cliche..."its better to have loved and lost than loved at all" or being in a "miserable" stressful relationship.

thats not for me...i wanted someone to "compliment my life, not complicate it"

i hope this helps in some little way!

talk to ya soon..

Update

Great news <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

He called and asked if he could come over and talk about finances. I said "sure, as long as it's not about the divorce." So he came over and stayed for about 1 1/2 hours. Just talking about bills, kids, small talk, etc... So here's the great news:

1. He wants to give me $500 more per month than I asked for so I can be sure everything is payed and I am not up to my gills in bills. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
2. He is giving me full physical custody of the kids. He isn't asking for equity from the house. He is giving me all the home's furnishings, except his personal stuff (mementos etc..) I agreed to give him doubles of the pics and he can copy others if he wants them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
3. Here is where I got a little brave, I asked him if he would consider going to counseling with me once per week without suspending the divorce action. I even offered to give him 1/2 of the equity in the house if he agreed. I told him that if we couldn't work it out, at least we would be settled with some of our issues and be better with each other. If we did work it out, then the benefits are obvious. He didn't say no and actually seemed to be thinking about it. He says that he would have to think for a bit and he would get back to me this week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
4. I know, not done yet. He also talked like, sounded like, acted like and joked like my Husband and not the WH. He even hugged me 3 times. Kissed me twice on the lips. Here is the best part, I asked him for the first hug and he complied happily and when I pulled back, he kissed me. He even joked around about sex which I told him was "out of the question unless we reconcile". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
5. He took his book with him, "What every man must battle". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
6. He apologized for filing for divorce and then staying here for 5 days. He said that he has felt horrible about it ever since and that he wanted me to know that he was praying for me to be ok when I thought we were praying for the marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
7. I invited him over next Saturday for videos and pizza with me and the kids and he is thinking about it. I said "ok, get back to me later." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
8. Last one.. He said I looked "Good". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK, guys, what do you think? I plan A'd my butt off and let God do His best. I am not getting all giddy because I have been hurt before. I am hoping for the best though and I told him that our marriage was far from dead in my opinion. So he knows that I want him and our marriage. The ball is still in his court. No pressure except what he puts himself under.

By the way, he swore on the bible (I know) that he didn't leave for the OW and in fact knows that that relationship is over and without a chance of survival. He even told me that he is avoiding all contact with her even though we are seperated. In fact, he doesn't want to date anyone at all.

Here is a prayer for him to be telling me the truth and if not, then for me to be strong despite.

In any event, I had a chance to talk with my H for an extended period of time and it was completely enjoyable.

Loni

This is GREAT, Loni..

But think more in the direction of ROMANCE....instead of just pizza and video with the kids...the domestic stuff is great but PLAN A involves much more..

What ATTRACTED HIM to you when you first began dating? What special secrets do you hold about that time? Bring those times to his memory. What you have that the OW does not is his HISTORY. Plus, remember that he has a ROMANTIC relationship with her. I am not just talking about SEX..I'm talking about the CHASE..PASSION..ALLURE...Like him telling you that you are looking good..Did you tell him the same?

Do you see what I mean?

ok...sounds like you had a GREAT afternonn!!!

just dont be too hasty or too needy...obviously what you have been doing is working...DONT stop!!!

once you find the right key, keep using it...stay with the independence....thats actually very sexy...needy is not

anyway...GOOD for you...just remember...........one day at a time.........

KEEP DOING WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING!!!

good job...(i hope you have a BIG smile on your face tonite)
just be careful not to rush too quickly...ok.