I am BW to 'Dummy' who has threads titled Infidelity and Emotionally Dead under Infidelity, GQ2. It will be difficult but I will try to condense our story.

We have known each other for 50 years, were high school sweathearts, married Nov '59. A little over two years later we had two babies and all the responsibilities that come with a family and we were still so young ourselves.
WH had three pa's. We divorced in 1975, he married OW about 6 months later. I, of course, was devastated. We lived in California at the time. He moved back to Texas with OW with her two children, leaving a long
distance between him and our two children (and me).

WH and OW divorced in 1982. I married my 2nd husband in 1977. WH and I had contact during the years because of the children and it was obvious we still had feelings for each other. In 1983, he left the woman he was seeing and I left my 2nd husband and we lived together for about 4 months. He decided it wasn't going to work and left to be with the woman he had been seeing and married her in 1984. I went back to my 2nd husband.


We saw each other several times over the next 3 years. I went to Texas from California (where I lived) to see our son and saw WH while there. Long story short, we decided to give it another try and he moved to California in 1987. He convinced me that he loved me and wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. He was remorseful for all that he had done to hurt me. I thought long and hard about it and finally decided we could make it work. We re-married 11-1-89, 30 years to the date from our first marriage. And it worked - for many years.

I never thought he would betray me again. I wouldn't have married him again if I had any doubts. In retrospect, I guess we never really worked through all the issues or the 'why' of the pa's. I guess I was naive, thinking everything would always be ok, that our love was strong enough to see us through any problems that might arise. I was wrong.

Something wasn't right and hadn't been for a long time (several years). We hadn't been communicating well, our SF was down the tubes and there wasn't much affection. Lots of LBs by both of us. WH doesn't talk much about what he is feeling or thinking so any time I would try to talk about what was wrong, he would put up a 'wall'. I finally gave up trying to get him talk about how to improve our relationship. And he just gave up, period.

There were clues that something was going on which I won't go into. I even confronted him in the spring of 2004 about some things I thought were odd. I ended up asking him point blank if he was having an affair. Of course, he looked me in the eye and lied to me. I chose to believe him because I thought it would show that I trusted him and he had previously expressed doubts about my trust. I also chose to ignore the clues. I'm not sure why. I guess if I
could ingore them, there weren't really there and I wouldn't have to face what we have been going through. I was SO WRONG!

The morning of 8-13-05 I had a premonition (or as I call it, a gut feeling) that he was with OW. Turns out I was right. Anyway, I stayed up all night looking for evidence on the computer and I found it. Very explicit e-mails back and forth dating from Sept 03 through 8-11-05. I can't tell you how shocked I was. There were many of them. I confronted him the next morning with the evidence. I have never felt so much pain and disappointment. How could he do this again??? I couldn't believe it, but I had the hard evidence in my hands.

We started MC about 2 weeks later. We started reading books and working on exercises. I thought we were making progress. I found out in Jan 06 he had seen her 2 or 3 times a week in December (says no sf). He said he would stop seeing her personally or contacting her by phone. (I need to interject here that he sees her several times a week at a national shipping company when he picks up his deliveries for his work. She is employed there.) Then in late Feb he told me he had seen her several times over the previous two or three weeks (says no SF). He said a week ago there had been no further personal contact after he told me he had been seeing her, which was about 3 weeks ago

OW was also married when the PA started. She divorced her husband during PA. Also, she is 18 years younger than WH. He has said her age had nothing to do with it but one of the e-mails he wrote to her stated "I'm a lucky man to have a woman 18 years younger interested in me"

We stopped seeing the MC in mid January. We weren't getting anywhere with her.

We are still living together, but WH hasn't committed to NC or 100% to marriage. Since he sees her when he picks up his shipments I guess it is not possible to do either. We have a real problem. We are not financially set so that WH could retire yet. He makes a good living at his current position and would not be able at age 66 to find another job that pays as well. Everything we have read on this web site and in Dr. Harleys books says NC - - ever, for the rest of your life. I don't know how that can be accomplished in our situation. Anyway, WH is not prepared to commit to that at this time. There has been no NC letter. WH knows that I feel he is giving more importance his job and money than to me and our relationship. I know that part of it is the financial situation.

I think if we are both 100% committed to making our marriage work, it will. We both have a lot of issues to overcome but it can be done. I sometimes wonder why I even want to make it work. I have been hurt so badly so many times I wonder if it is worth the effort. But then I think about the good things and how it could be and that's what I want to do. I know I have some responsibility for the 'climate' of our marriage priar to PA.


WH has made a lot progress in sharing his thoughts and feelings with me. For him to post on this forum is a big step. It does give me hope.

I'm sure there will be some folks out there who will wonder if I'm nuts for trying build a relationship with WH after all that has happened. I do not want what we had before. I want a strong, loving, affectionate marriage with total honesty and transparency. I believe that it is possible. We'll see.

It is so hard to understand why this had to happen at this time in our lives. We shouldn't be dealing with all this pain and anger. We should be looking forward to WH's future retirement and planning how and what to do then.
Somehow life seems to throw you a curve just when you least expect it!

I apoligize for writing a book. Thanks for reading and I welcome comments or suggestions anyone has to offer.

stillcrazy

Oh man...

You and your husband have a history of infidelity that rivals that of a television soap opera.

I have to ask, how did your marriage with your 2nd husband end after you went back to him the first time? Did you leave him for your current husband twice?

This is scary, and I truly wish you happiness and love, but I doubt you'll ever find it with this man. He's had four affairs that you know of, and who knows how many more that you didn't detect. You as well found it acceptable to have an affair, with your current husband, but an affair nonetheless.

There is a deep rooted problem with you husband. He is a serial cheater, and he doesn't appear to want help fixing his problem.

You've been through fifty years of this, and I hurt for you. This situation is beyond my understanding.

The best thing I can think of is to recommend you call Harley (info on this site). He does phone consultation, and although expensive, it is very intense and specialized for affairs. You'll get much more out of 1 session with Harley than in multiple sessions with a counselor.

I wish you the best.

SC, you're here! What an awesome post, too. I can see where you are very well thought out, careful and considerate. The honesty level is high, I think, both to yourself and to others. I love novels...write more, 'k?

Couple of things I got that are different...

You and your WH share expectations of what life should be like right now, which doesn't include these emotions and this reality. That's interesting. You both have had expectations all your life...how many of them have you shared in the same way? Obviously, the one that differs is fidelity.

Another thing...your post had me pondering what qualifies as an OW...if you define it as someone outside the marriage, then you have been OW, also, haven't you? EA OW. That is a different dynamic, also.

And I see you typing PA instead of A (not a huge one, but you have to know how I am if you're going to be able to dig for anything useful to you both, right?)...if it matters to you whether it is PA or EA, then continue that way. If you believe an A is an A, then try switching it to that...because I found myself early on typing A because I knew EA but wasn't sure of PA and it was both, of course. Sounds like the same for your WH, IMO (in my opinion).

One of the questions I wanted to ask was which hurts more..EA or PA? Your opinion matters. I'm not taking a poll.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really love your perspective, btw. You own your choices (the suspecting but believing) and your motives, your feelings and instincts. I believe you are a big gift to this board and applaud your bravery and commitment as well as your WH's.

You both have agreed to share your posts, and I think that is important to note for answering posts. I do see where it will be very beneficial to both of you, and you both seem to be handle this without destructive reactions.

Have you printed out the EN, LB and RC questionnaires and done them together? I'm sorry for your experience with MC. I believe it was needed to get you here (yeah, I'm one of those people), so that you can get a solid handle on relationships, and IMO, this material really sync'd with your WH. Now you can look for an MC with experience and perspective with MB.

Your lives are full of a lot of differences and similarities, allowances and permissions, as well as patterns. I am not going to focus on the regular NC, Plan A, Plan B and other steps. There are others here who will join in and do that, I'm sure. I don't mean to say they aren't important because they are and I believe in them. I believe your situation is special, with a lot of history, and it sounds like you aren't tormented by his NC. I am concerned for your feelings, for your state of being and respect that you'll let me know if my approach is off base.

Please know my intent is not to use you like an experiment, tear you apart to see how you tick. I don't see you as an oddity at all...my experience here has been, "This is where I was and am happy not to be any longer" helpful nature. You and your experience is hitting me harder in the place where I truly thought I was destined to be...from your WH's point of view. I feel more careful, understanding and accepting without true experience behind me. A little scary to me.

So that's where all my gratitude and appreciation for you both being here is coming from. Feels like something I've prayed for without knowing how in the world it could be answered. That's where you're a great gift, for yourself, and your bravery. I believe in your future marriage, no matter what comes, you both will learn a lot, and get to this place of floating peace, with some growth interruptions, which is where I'm at.

Five dogs? Oh, wait...dear grandchildren?

LOL

Maybe you won't feel uncomfortable with all the abbreviations if you see I get them in my own way, also.

I see a super caretaker in you. Fill me in more on your right now and thank you so much for your where you've been.

LA

Sundog and LA,

I just spent a good deal of time responging to you posts and I lost it somewhere in cyberspace. AAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
I'll try again tomorrow. Too tired right now.

sc

SC,

Great idea to share with dummy, too...when you write your posts, cut and past them to a word document...or write them there and cut and past them into the post area.

When they disappear into cyberspace, I swear, a piece of me goes with them. I really hate when it happens. Luckily, it doesn't happen too often.

I bet it was GREAT, too.

LA

Sundog,

Thanks for responding. Yes I left my 2nd husband for my current husband twice. And yes, I committed adultry with my current husband against his wife at the time and my 2nd husband. I am not proud of these things but I can't change them.

I appreciate your comments and the recommendation to talk to Dr. Harley.

Any further comments are welcome.

sc

LA,

Thanks for your comments. I do need clarification on a couple of things.

The paragraph beginning "You and your WH share expections - - -" Can you expand on this a little?

Yeah, I have been the OW and an EA OW (committing adultry with WH while we were both married to someone else.) Not proud of that fact.

Using PA as opposed to just A - - just using the local vernacular - - -you know - -when in Rome!

I think there is not a lot of difference between an EA and a PA. They are both betrayals. And yes, WH had both in this case. I think an EA is more difficult to overcome because there is such a strong connection. I think that is a big factor in WH's state of mind now. He denied EA in the beginning but I knew he was lying about that because the A went on for 18 months. I think two of the other A's were basically PA's but the 3rd one (when we divorced and he married OW) was obivously both EA & PA. So how can this connection be broken?? I've tried to show him how much I love him and want to re-build our marriage into a relationship that will be strong and loving, honest, open, affectionate, affair-proof. But, as you know, he has not been able as yet to commit
to doing that.

Sometimes I just want to give up. The pain and frustration is almost more than I can bear. I certainly don't want to continue in the marriage if we can't fix the problems. He has said he loves but is not 'in love with me'. I have seen that statement so many times on this forum I want to puke!! (By the way, I think I started 'lurking' on the web site right after the new year, maybe even before Christmas. So I have read a lot!!) But then I think if don't give it chance I will probably regret it so I keep 'hanging in'. I still think we can make it work if we are 100% commited.

I'm going to post this and continue with another. Don't want to lose it again.

sc

LA,

I printed out the EN, LB and RC questionaires in January but we haven't completed them. We seem to do a lot of reading, some talking and not much 'doing'. Some of that is due to WH not commiting yet, I think. EN & SF are not being met. So, I will start completing my forms and I guess he will when he is ready, if ever. I cannot control his actions and/or feelings. I know that. I guess I thought it would be me holding things up, not him.

Back to your question re PA/EA vs A - - and my respons that they are both betrayals and that an EA is more difficult to overcome. They are both very hard to deal with. In the case of the PA, your get images in you head of WH & OW that keep you awake at night and keep youy brain in turmoil during the day. You wonder if you can ever satisfy your WH again and if he thinks about OW during SF. Re EA you wonder how often he thinks about her while going through his day. You wonder just what this OW had (he says her fun personality drew him to her initially) that kept him there and if you have anything left that he will be drawn to and love and want to be around. It is all so very painful. You start questioning yourself, the way you act, re- act, look, talk, dress, hair style etc. You don't know which way to turn, what to do, because nothing seems to work. In the aftermath of my discovering the A I was so angry and resentful, hurt and stressed, I lashed out with a lot of venom and emotions and hate for what he had done and hate for her because she particiapted in it and helped keep it going, knowing he was married, and she obviously didn't care that it was ruining my life, my marriage and eventualy her life and marriage as well. (She was betrayed by her H a few years ago.) But I can't in good conscience condemn her any more than I do myself for doing the same thing. Anyway, I think my reactions were hurtful but I didn't care. I had been so badly damaged by this discovery I didn't know if I would ever recover and I wanted him to understand how much he had hurt me. After all the reading I've done I know this a normal reaction. I didn't realize just how long it would take for him to recover. We both have a lot to work through. Think we can manage to do it??

Re NC, it hurts me terribly that WH has not written NC letter or implemented NC. I'm not sure of the reasons. I know he feels that he has to keep his job for financial reasons (and I agree to the practicality of that, but my heart says NO)and as long as he is still working this job and she is still working at the shipping company, the will see each in that context. And that bothers me because I think he is still emotionally attached to her and therefore vulernable. Maybe if he commited 100% to making this marriage work we could overcome that obstacle.??? What do you think?? And how would we accomplish that? Everything I have read in Dr. Harley's books, on the forum etc., says NC of any kind, ever again, no matter what it takes. Help!!

Grandsons! Again - - when in Rome--- HA!

I had so mush more to say last night. Wish I could remember it all. Maybe later.

Thanks for your 'ear'!

sc

stillcrazy,

Just some reality here, not trying to upset you:

This man has been a cheater and adulterer for his entire life. Much of that time you were the person he was committing adultery with. He's never realized his mistakes enough to try or want to change. Not everyone is marriage material, and I'm sorry that my opinion is that this man should never have been married to anyone.

He has no problem bouncing around from one lover to another, regardless of his marital status or the damage he leaves in his wake.

You are focusing on him agreeing to NC with the current OW, but the OW is not the problem, your husband is the problem. Are you just going to keep pulling him away from whomever the OW is for the rest of his life, time and time again?

I am not encouraged by your situation. The morals you two have shown to this point indicate you are both unlikely to change. Nonetheless, if you are committed to fixing this you need to stick to plan A and work on getting him to agree to NC. Doesn't matter if he is trying to get over her or not, he has a history of weak willpower, as long as he sees her he will be tempted and he will fail.

Have you exposed his affair to friends and possible work? Why can he/she not change schedule so that they do not see each other? Sounds fishy to me. You say he's been posting here before, is he willing to enter this thread and give his input?

Good luck.

Sundog,

Thanks for your response, I think. Somehow I thought this was a forum to help SAVE marriages!?! Have I been mislead??

Yes, we had two short affairs while married to other people. Was it immoral?? You bet!! Am I sorry? Absolutely!! Is WH?? Yes, I believe he is. It's easy to judge others when you haven't walked their exact path.

Has WH done some really bad things?? You bet he has and twice I participated. Maybe we both deserve where we are now?? I dunno - - maybe we do.

The point is, we came here to find help - - not just as a couple, but individually. Maybe we can't salvage our marriage. Maybe there isn't anything there worth saving.
I think there is. I also know there are lots of folks out there who are wondering why in the world I would even consider trying to salvage whatever is left. I understand that. I wondered that myself. But my "gut feeling" is to try to fix it. My 'gut' is rarely wrong.

I am not defending what WH has done. It was wrong, immoral - - add your own label. Yes, he has hurt me beyond description, many times. I know the fact that I have not been the perfect wife is no excuse for an affair. But I also know I had some responsibility for what was going on in our marriages at the times of the As. We did so much that was wrong, LB each other all the time, etc.
I only wish that back then (the first M) we had access to all the resources that are available today. Things might have turned out differently. Or is that a "pipe dream" too??

This time around WH has done some things he never did before - - reading at least six books since d day, posting on the forum, talking about things he never has - like his thoughts and feelings, going to MC (although we stopped in mid January because we weren't getting anywhere with this counslor.

Granted, there isn't a lot, action yet. Could that be from the "fog" that WS's are suppossedly in after an afffair??

Just wondering.

WH has posted under "Dummy" on this forum if you want to read and comment. I'll ask him if he wants to post here with his input.

Thanks again. Further comments are welcome.

sc

SC - I think you are looking for some way to change your WH and make him into a faithful H. Sundog is trying to tell you that you cannot do that and MB cannot do that. Only your WH can do that.

As long as your WH refuses to go NC with his current OW, he is telling you loud and clear that he is not interested in being a faithful H. I certainly understand that you want to find some way to change his thinking and change his ways, but again, you cannot control your husband. Only he can control what he does.

MB is primarily designed for marriages that were mostly pretty good and the affair is just an aberration. What Sundog is trying to tell you is that your WH sounds a hardcore, lifelong, serial cheater, and persuading him to change is going to be like turning around the Titanic. MB principles rarely work when there is a character flaw (like lifelong cheating) or severe abuse (I say "severe" because any A is a form of abuse IMHO.)

That doesn't mean you can't try. It just means you must understand what you are dealing with and that you have a very, very difficult road ahead of you -- as if dealing with a "normal" A isn't difficult enough.

People like this rarely change unless and until something drastic happens and they get a severe enough shock to get their attention. A short Plan A followed by a pitch-dark Plan B might do it.

Might.

If he is posting here, that's encouraging. But please do not post to each other's threads. That just devolves into a free-for-all and public fight and helps nothing. Just stick to your own threads and we will help you all we can.
Mulan

Whether or not you want to save your marriage is your decision. I did not say one anything indicating that you should go either way, I just tried to point out my honest opinion of your past and how difficult it may be for you guys to make this work.

Everyone here will talk to you in a different way. Some will encourage, others will challenge, others will tell you exactly what to do.

I guess the main thing I am trying to get at when I refer to your past is your guys history of turning to another lover when things aren't going well with your current spouse. Why do you suppose this is? Has your husband told you what it is that the other women provide him that he couldn't get from you?

MC isn't going to do anything for him as long as he is involved in an A. Has he committed to the marriage, or is he just doing enough to keep you somewhat appeased? The fog you refer to will likely be there as long as he is in contact with this woman. I'm sorry, but that's usually the case. When he is truly repentant and wants the marriage then he would do whatever is necessary to fix this.

Oh, I just feel like the odd one, SC...

I believe your marriage can be saved, and for the first time in decades, could thrive.

I understand your defensive reaction to sundog's post completely. The old me wouldn't have seen the value but grabbed all the condemnation, bashing, judgment and disgust and held it to my heart. Even though it wasn't there.

I get that.

See, all those things were in me over my actions...I was condemning myself, bashing, disgusted and judging myself. Heard it another's words. Hard to get the support out of what we see as opposing views. You can do it, though. I see a human on the verge of really owning their life and being open. I think you've had enough of the past you, like me, don't you?

In my posts, you can see by clicking on my name, I talk a lot about judgment...especially disrespectful kinds; choices, power, seperate and equal; personal code; feelings, beliefs and thoughts. I'm a repeat offender on these.

Today, driving home, I thought about your post to sundog (I missed the one to me...go figger) which I read before I left work. I know what has pulled me to you and your WH...many things, come to think of it. One of them is that for all that you both have chosen in your life seems to be chosen from feelings instead of beliefs.

I was like that, too. However, in the case of As, it being chosen by each other, of acknowledged free will and beliefs that recommits one to the other.

I needed to figure that out because I didn't realize what a lovebuster it has been in my marriage to hear my H say two things, at two different times:

Before his A..."I can't imagine going through all the work to get to know and love another person" as to why our marriage worked for him. At the time, I FELT a jolt inside of me (something he used to say often), but put it down to relief, not fear...because he often told me he was incapable of having an A. I felt that this was what he was saying for my protection, right? Well...the flip side is what we hear in our heart...not through the brain. I heard "You're so much work, too much to tolerate, but a lesser of two evils." He didn't say this, you understand...I processed it this way, straight into my belief system...and it came up with a match...what my parents taught me was that I was to be tolerated, not cherished.

I craved to be cherished, adored, honored and celebrated. Craved like a drug...not enough attention to fill me up. Well, with the belief I was only one step shy of a devil, could I be filled up? Was I worthy?

Which leads me to his post-A statement after we reconciled and began working on the marriage. I was panting with impatience to hear the ILY from him, but my newly found respect said to wait for it. We were making the bed and I was again owning my stuff. He yanked up the covers and said, "Well, I'm never going to cheat again, that's for sure! Too much pain. I'm not going anywhere." And I heard in my heart, though I even repeated his statement outloud as part of my listen and repeat, "It is scarier out there than in here with you. I stay with you because I fear the unknown and more pain."

Well...hmmmm. It has been a year since his statement and we do have a marriage better than the last 18 years...and it took your post to remind me that I have a lot of beliefs in me to yet release, to ask him how he feels currently, not to assume. My H is new and you helped me to remember that.

I share this with you to show your contribution already. Important to keep in mind. You don't know how your story, what you desire and the steps you take will affect others. Believe them good.

Also goes to what I think I can help with. Choosing one another. You choosing your life and your WH and him choosing you...not from feelings but from reality...beliefs.

I asked about you as OW, not as a judgment, but as ownership. Not owning blame but choices. Again--the past is past, but it is there for your power, your solace in the present. I'm not focusing on NC because I believe there's a lot in you and your WH to be done that exceeds this requirement.

There's no peace in contact...that's why dummy is still WH not FWH. Time will give you either no contact or a different path altogether. I would like to see a joyous choice for you both.

LA

On a last note...

Having been a serial cheater, I know it isn't what I can't get from my H. We talked about my post (I stopped and finshed it later) and I asked him now, why he would not choose to cheat. His answer was close to the same, but not really. "Too much pain for me, for you and my family." I heard it in my head and my heart as he said it. What is new in our marriage is he asked why I wouldn't..."Because As are a choice. I didn't realize that two years ago. I felt you made me cheat by not giving me what I wanted. I never saw it as my choice...and I choose not to cheat. I choose you, to love you and be faithful. I can't choose both."

He found no more safety in my statement than I did in his...yet I trust him and he trusts me. I respect his belief and mine. If he does, he does. I don't believe he will and I won't be responsible if he chooses to...nor will he be responsible for mine.

It isn't about not being a good partner...it is about being a person with the knowledge of their choice and power. And understanding our needs are different from wants and expectations. When we know ourselves well, we choose differently.

Sundog asked you what I asked dummy right off the bat...why? His why may be different than mine. I have a suspicion it is close to mine. Hidden beliefs, permissions and not knowing what our choices mean (that we have them).

LA

Mulan,

Thanks for your response. I am very much aware that I have no control over WH's actions, or feelings. He is the only one that can make changes. My wishing, wanting, desiring --whatever term you want to use - - will not accomplish anything. HE has to do it. And he can - when he decides that is what he wants, not one minute before. I know what he is capable of doing once he makes up his mind to do it. It is wondrous what good can happen when a mind, any mind, is made up to do the right thing. The problem is, I may not have the strength to hold on that long.

He smoked 2 to 3 packs of unfiltered cigarettes for over thirty years and in 1993 he gave it up - - - cold turkey.
He hasn't smoked since then. Tabacco is addictive, as we all know. Unfortunately, he now has damaged lungs as a result of his addiction. So he is paying a price for that addiction. Affairs can also be addictive. So, I guess you could say he is an addict. And he may pay a dear price for that. Addicts can and do recover. I pray to God that he does, not for me, but for him, and his eternal soul.

I do understand what I am faced with. The odds are against a good outcome. I know it will not be easy. Is anything worthwhile ever easy?? I don't think so.

Perhaps MB is designed for marriages that are "mostly pretty good" and the affair is an abberation. However, I disagree with the premise that affairs are an abberation in marriages that are "mostly pretty good". Affairs generally happen because the marriage sucks and no one is trying to make it better. I am not trying to be rude or force my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am just voicing what I believe to be true.

Thanks for your input and please continue to respond as you see fit. All comments are welcome.

sc

Sundog,

Again, thanks for responding. I agree that our past actions have not been pretty. I also know there is a huge mountain to climb and we may not make it to the top, together. But the journey if we don't try is pretty much the same. The mountain is still there - - only it would climbed alone - - and we would not reach the top together.
So - - what do we have to lose?? Together, possibly a better marriage than we ever dared to hope for. Alone, life separated from each other, never achieving the goal.
I'm willing to take the chance. If if doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out. But it won't be because we didn't try. Of course, there is one ingredient missing. That would be the WH. Hhmm - - wonder what he thinks??

What I am trying to say is, no matter what we do, it will be very difficult for both of us. I can't be in much more pain that I already am. So, why not give it a shot.

On a different note, I understand about the NC and so does WH. We'll see. To be continued......

sc

Still ~ My marriage was miserable for many years before my husband's affair. We weren't even close to 'mostly pretty good'.

Our marriage is far better now, 5 years post affair, with MB help, than it ever was the 10 years before.

The MB principles work if you work them.

***However, I disagree with the premise that affairs are an abberation in marriages that are "mostly pretty good". Affairs generally happen because the marriage sucks and no one is trying to make it better.***

If you keep reading here awhile, I think you will find that it's about 50-50. Plenty of people can look back and see where there were big gaps in the marriage and holes that needed to be filled; but just as many will tell you that the marriage seemed to be quite good and they suddenly realized their WS were just helping themselves to extras and goodies on the side. Why? Because they had the chance, they saw no reason not to, and they thought they'd never get caught.

Either way, the root cause always seems to be a warped sense of entitlement. It's either "my life sucks, so I'm entitled to some fun" or "I'm so great and successful, I'm entitled to some fun!"

Not to get off your original topic, though. Should you try to save your marriage? Of course. You have little to lose. We just want you to realize that you may have a tougher nut to crack than some others. That does not mean you should not try.
Mulan

Mulan,

"Either way, the root cause always seems to be a warped sense of entitlememt. It's either "my life sucks, so I'm entitled to some fun" or "I'm so great and successful, I'm entitled to some fun."

For the most part I agree with your above statement. What is difficult to understand is why one partner cheats and the other doesn't and the are both living in the same situation. I suppose they must have different perceptions of the reality of their lives. We, after all, are all only human. We have all made mistakes of one kind or another, some minor, some really bad, some evil. That is part of the human condition since the fall of Adam and Eve. I believe in God and redemption and pray for understanding and forgiveness for WH and me.

Anyway, thanks again for you thoughts. Always welcome here.

sc

BrambleRose,

Thanks for joining in. You give me hope. I'm glad to hear that you have a better marriage now, post A. That is what I hope and pray for.

Please continue to post here if you are so inclined.

sc