He does not have a "right" to get anything from you other than his visitations. He wanted to split up, remember? Why allow him all the benefits of fatherhood when he CHOSE to leave?

All this does is give him the ILLUSION of being "involved" when he's NOT. This ILLUSION of involvement only serves to ASSUAGE HIS GUILT for abandoning his family. Hoopsie, you are simply protecting him from THE CONSEQUENCE of abandoning his family at your and your children's expense.

Your cooperation in this little charade protects him from the consequences of his actions and HARMS YOUR chances at reconciliation in the process. And marital reconcilation is VERY MUCH in the best interest of your children.

You can't be court ordered to talk to your H. So why would you agree to such a thing? You CAN call the court appointed parenting coordinator and tell him what you will and won't do.

There is no reason that you have to stay in touch with your husband when it does nothing but harm your marriage and your childrens future prospects at a whole family.

Even the Harleys say you can talk about things vital to the children. Just keep it very short and impersonal -- email is far better than face-to-face or over the phone, which is what he'll want to do to get his "fix" of you -- and give him no more than you absolutely have to.

Many others have done Plan B with children and made it work for them. You can do this.

Is there a visitation agreement as far as him (and OW) taking the kids? I'm almost afraid to ask --
Mulan

Well, here I was trying to be all nice and MB-proper. I like Melody's answer a whole lot better than mine!
Mulan

Talking to a WAYWARD spouse has NOTHING to do with your worth as a parent. Cutting him off cannot jeopardize your custody and in no way harms a child. I have never ever seen a court "frown on" a parent who refused to speak to a wayward spouse. What counts is that the parent is allowd to contact the CHILD, not the other parent.

How old are the children? I forgot.

Well, since you have to go over the emotional needs of the children twice a year (nice, since they have lost their home and father), why not email him and be truthful.

Let him know that child #1 misses her bedroom and home, way of life, friends, teachers, and father.

That's what I'm trying to do -- just be as brief and impersonal in email as possible and only communicate about the children. I don't think that violates the spirit of Plan B. Whether it was a mistake or not, I signed a document saying "each parent shall keep the other informed of the children's educational and social activities and shall forward all documents relating to them within one week of receipt blah, blah."

I guess I could argue that I would be keeping him informed via my intermediary but I am simply too afraid that a court would see that as deliberately obstructionist, if H wanted to get combative about it.

And you'll love this -- the language in the final agreement (not the temporary separation agreement) says that neither party shall introduce a signficant other to the children until we have been dating for six months. WH crossed that milestone a year ago, while we were still married. It's just boilerplate language that's in every divorce agreement but I'm not sure yet what I want to do about that.

They're three little girls, 5, 3, and 18 months. The 5 yo is a daddy's girl who misses him and tries so hard on the phone to keep him engaged and entertained and writes him letters and draws him pictures and sleeps with his photo, the 3 yo will talk for a few minutes and wander away, the baby wouldn't know him if she fell over him. WH started his affair when she was five months old, moved out right before her first birthday and has missed her first words, first steps, everything.

Get your Plan B letter ready.

I see no problem with emailing him (not talking to him) the requirements of the court.

I would keep to the bare minimum, and let WH know that now that you are getting divorced, he will need to make connections with teachers/schools, but you will bide by the separation agreement.

Hoopsie, the problem with contact during Plan B is that it defeats the purpose. It allows him to get his fix, prevents him from seeing what it will really be like divorced, and completely prevents you from withdrawing from him.

It is better to not do Plan B AT ALL if you aren't going to really do it, because it ruins your credibility and diminshes any remaining leverage you have when you send a Plan B letter with NO TEETH.

It means nothing to say to a WS that you will have some contact but not other. They know it means they can still get their fix and will still have endless opportunities to engage you at will. Better to just not do it and throw in the towel.

This set up now just provides him a false illusion of "involvement" that protects him from the consequences of his actions. At hoopsies and her children's expense.

Is there no way to fight the seperation agreement? It sounds completely unreasonable to me. You cannot coperant as a unit when you are NOT a unit!

***Is there no way to fight the seperation agreement? It sounds completely unreasonable to me. You cannot coperant as a unit when you are NOT a unit!***

What Daisy said!
Mulan

Okay, I just sent him a terse, three-line email: 1) I'm waiting on my lawyer; 2) we're taking a vacation in June, visitation in July works for us; and 3) I have not gotten any progress reports from the school.

I didn't address anything else in his email. He can get the dates from the websites, and he can call DD's teacher all he wants. He doesn't need my permission and I'm not going to engage with him, which I think is what he wants.

But somebody explain this to me. I know WH and I know that this is really making him mad. He is rapidly going into debt, I'm not being friendly to him, and instead of thinking "wow, what a mistake I've made," he is thinking that he is a victim. He is feeling righteous indignation that things are not going well. He is thinking that I am being difficult and unreasonable and he is getting angry. And he is not going to come crawling back to me, he's going to say "She wants to play games? *I'll* play games and sic the lawyers on her." And of course, I'm sure OW is in the background giving him moral support and clucking about how immature I'm being and what a shame that his STBXW isn't communicating everything he wants to know. She's probably telling him to file for sole custody. I'm sure she has all my emails printed out and saved in a little file. She's been making "Divorce To Do" lists for him since this whole thing started.

So, what happens now? What do WSs typically do in Plan B? What happens when they have too much pride? Do they really go from chilly emails to "honey, we need to talk, I'm so sorry"?? I can't really see it happening. I'll say one thing -- Plan B is working for me. I used to dissolve in a puddle at the thought that he was angry at me. Now, I don't really care.

before long the OW is going to be tired of this. He complains to her and she is going to see it as an LB.

This is going to cause conflict between them.

Hi Hoopsie.

My WH is just the same - he is very resentful that I won't speak to him and is 'playing games' just as you describe.

He doesn't have the savvy to do it through a lawyer (or the money, truth be told) so he's decided to stop paying our bills instead.

This means we can no longer afford to stay within 1/2 of him, and will soon be moving 250 miles away. He won't support his family, but my parents will.

You'd think he'd be ashamed, but he isn't.

Like you, I no longer care if he is angry with me. In fact, I no longer care about what he thinks about anything.

Months and months of indifference will suck it right of you. People were right when they said I'd become the biggest danger to my marriage. I'm the one who filed.

Alph.

Well, my husband's girlfriend is paying for his lawyer. The guy's got a Harvard MBA and needs his girlfriend to cough up the cash for his lawyer and his cruises.

I guess I'm wondering if his anger over this isn't making me the "common enemy" that will just draw them closer together. Giving them fuel for the fire so they can plot and strategize and commiserate together.

hoopsie, your husbands frustration is pretty typical of what happens when you just give him the cold shoulder. It looks like you are playing head games with him. This is why it is so important to do a PROPER PLAN B with a proper Plan B letter. It explains your intentions very clearly.

Now, does that mean he will LIKE Plan B? Of course not. He will not like losing control. But being "terse" and cold him do nothing but tick him off for no reason. When you go into Plan B, you cut off communications with a LOVE LETTER that leaves a good taste in his mouth.

So, instead of giving him fuel for the fire and being rude, terse with him, why not do this the right way? It will be much more effective and you WON'T be the common enemy by ticking him off with your terse comments. With you out of the picture, they can direct their anger ELSEWHERE: AT EACH OTHER.

But with your terse little emails, you are setting yourself up to be the target. Use some strategy here, hoopsie, and make your efforts work for you instead of against you.

I'm sure that right now, you are the common enemy.

Evetually they'll get sick of moaning to each other about you, though. Not much of romance, is it, when all the two of them think/talk about is the betrayed wife.

Alph.

***But somebody explain this to me. I know WH and I know that this is really making him mad.***

Good. It's supposed to. He's mad because his fantasy is not working out the way he thought it would. It's getting uncomfortable and he doesn't like that. He thought there would be no consequences and he's mad because there ARE starting to be consequences.

***He is rapidly going into debt,***

Good. More stress for WH = more trouble in Paradise.

***I'm not being friendly to him, and instead of thinking "wow, what a mistake I've made," he is thinking that he is a victim. He is feeling righteous indignation that things are not going well. He is thinking that I am being difficult and unreasonable and he is getting angry.******

Of course he is. He has to blame you, remember, because otherwise he's just a selfish [censored] who's destroying his family and THAT couldn't POSSIBLY be true.

If and when he gets to the "wow, what a mistake I've made" phase, it's going to take time. I say "if and when" because there are no guarantees here -- except that one the says if you roll over and appease him so he won't be mad at you you're GUARANTEED to lose your marriage.

***And he is not going to come crawling back to me,***

Good. You don't want some WH to come crawling back. You want your Husband to walk in like a man.

***he's going to say "She wants to play games? *I'll* play games and sic the lawyers on her."***

This is no game you're playing. That's what he's starting find out and that's why he's mad and frustrated. As far as his lawyers -- let YOUR lawyers deal with that.

***And of course, I'm sure OW is in the background giving him moral support and clucking about how immature I'm being and what a shame that his STBXW isn't communicating everything he wants to know.***

Uh-huh . . . and she's also listening to lots and lots of pissing and moaning about how "Hoopsie won't talk to me! I want to talk to her! Why won't she talk to me?" How much do you think she's enjoying that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

***She's probably telling him to file for sole custody. I'm sure she has all my emails printed out and saved in a little file. She's been making "Divorce To Do" lists for him since this whole thing started.***

So what? There's nothing you can do about her actions. Just sit back and enjoy the trouble you are causing in Paradise by refusing to participate in their sordid little fantasy.

***So, what happens now? What do WSs typically do in Plan B? What happens when they have too much pride? Do they really go from chilly emails to "honey, we need to talk, I'm so sorry"?? I can't really see it happening.***

From what I have seen here and experienced myself, they usually do exactly what yours is doing -- first get roaring mad at the loss of control, and then in many cases they DO eventually come back if you have shown them the way and left them an "out". That's what the copies of your Plan B letter are for. Have you written your Plan B letter yet?

But it rarely happens overnight. It's going to take some time.

***I'll say one thing -- Plan B is working for me. I used to dissolve in a puddle at the thought that he was angry at me. Now, I don't really care.***

Exactly right. And remember, he's counting on being able to manipulate and control you with threats of anger, so don't be surprised if he ramps it up for a while. That's always worked for him before, hasn't it? Just don't let him scare you with it.

Plan B works whether a WS changes back to an S or not -- just as you are seeing. It gives you a way to recover either with or without him.

So, where's your letter?
Mulan

***The guy's got a Harvard MBA and needs his girlfriend to cough up the cash for his lawyer and his cruises.***

Do ya think this hasn't occurred to her, too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Oh, he knows that I love him and that he can come back. He knows he has an out. The letter I wrote said "I pray that we can find each other again, after some time and distance have made us stronger." Or something. And I think my not being at his beck-and-call is showing that I'm stronger than I was. I also gave him back my wedding ring and said "I pray I can get this back again someday for real" (and he said, "Yeah, don't count on it.")