CL,

Thank you for the update. I've got this for you:

"these are my words) i have coddled this selfishness for many years - i enabled it - i let it happen - i wanted to believe that i would be different. these were my choices and i see them."

In that book I'm urging (because I'm thrilled with it), they write about being the "good" spouse at the expense of the other partner. That's right...the saint syndrome is as harmful as the abuser. No kidding. Please get this book!

I'm so glad you have your family's support. Getting the truth out there is getting your own reality straight, doncha think?

Now, about boundaries...saying "No." and sticking to it is tough for you. It is essential to Plan A...you say no to picking her up. "I know you're fully capable of getting home. I know you'll do it safely."

This isn't an LB...it is a boundary you have for the safety of your DD. Established because her routine is important to her and your WW is an adult. You DJ'd yourself again by going where you have no right, btw...reasoning why her message went on and on. You don't know. Don't go there.

Stay here with us.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We're nice.

And the boundary again, on 15 hours of UA is about you and her only. Not DD. It is not your responsibility to get her to spend family time...that's her choice. Yours is to plan the RC, drop DD off and have that time alone with WW. Your choice, not hers. Period. Her interest level (you DJ'd again) is hers. Your choices are yours.

Just reinforcing you, CL. You're growing gangbusters and feeling the reward of it. Respect includes "No" because you have a code that you live by. Before "No" was in reaction to WW and often overridden. You allowed that. You're finding your worth...no allowance for her choices. They're hers!

((((())))))

LA

Thanks LA - yes you are nice. Yeah in her message she assured me she would be done by 8...which means i would leave around 7:15.

it is now 9pm eastern - and still no call. my D is now in bed - so yep - i am telling her to take the train.

Hey folks - if your out there - just a quick yes or no is good...

do i call her now almost 9:30 and find out what the heck her plans are for the evening...since she told me she would be leaving the friends at 8pm?

just out of general consideration for me??? I mean the *#@**!!!

What do you think, CL? Can you make someone be considerate of you?

You're not driving to pick her up, right?

LA

You can call her say, "I fear you are with OM and are ending our marriage. I am going to bed with my mind set on facing my fear and my pain, and giving it to God."

Then hang up.

LA

Your anger is understood. However, consider this to God showing you that you really are two separate people, making your own choices...and before, when you chose to believe she wouldn't make these choices that cause so much pain, nor would you, all of that was an illusion of control.

There's a lesson here...take it with you to bed, and hug yourself, breathe deeply, know you are not rejected, unacceptable or unworthy. You are not. This you respecting you.

LA

Sorry CL for using your thread to talk about me, but I wanted to respond to LA.

I do not believe I am lieing to myself. I am in pain. I am angry. I FEEL BETRAYED! Why would she give up on such a wonderful thing because "something was missing"? Why not try? Why would she rather talk to him for an hour than spend 5 minutes with me? All she wants to do is feel okay with moving on. I can't force her to stay with me. All I can do is focus on myself. I know I am at fault too, but I am trying to improve myself. I have never been unreasonable with her. I have always listened and tried to understand. I know that she will never end it...she expects me to. She hates that I still love her so much. She wants me to move on so that she can sleep at night. She keeps saying that you can't force people to do something they don't want, but what she needs to realize is that she is forcing me into something that I don't want. I want to work on this marriage, I want us to be as happy as we have ever been, but I can't do it alone. I do love her. I will always love her, but if she moves on, I can't sit around crying in my beer. I have to move on in my life, and now I realize that I don't have to be with someone to be happy with myself. I have been so scared of being alone, when there was never anything to be scared of in the first place. I will never divorce her. If she wants to be rid of me, she has to do it. She wants me to start dating...I won't do it because I am a married man who is in love with his wife and wants his marriage back. I will continue to fight the fight, but I just have to change tactics. For now, I am just enjoying my time to myself, because I am fun to be around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

yeah...she ended up calling me at 9:30 all sorry - i told her i didn't want to hear any excuses she said she kept going and i told her to just stop...she took the train - but i still had to pick her up at the station. at least it was only 10 min instead of 45. she got in the car all sad and i could tell she had been crying. i asked her what was going on. she is working on this really tough thing at work about child abuse and she said it was killing her...she said she was listening to songs on her ipod and just was really sad. then she preceded to talk about her job...

she asked me if we couldn't just play in a band together (we are both musicians) at night and then she would stay home with D - she said she could just work this job whenever we needed $. i listened and mirrored...
but these things she says - tell me to stick it out - but i just don't trust her now.

She asked me 20 times if i was ok...and actually - I WAS - which was a nice feeling for a change - to really feel ok...except that i thought she was being very selfish and i was angry - but I FELT GOOD. I do believe she was having drinks with everyone,,,no proof (but i could smell the dirty martini's on her) but that is my gut on this one...and my gut has been fairly accurate.

ps LA - I am going to go buy that book tomorrow...sounds like a great one.
and i think you are right - i should perhaps change my name - i feel a shift in me.

one more ps - Lost2006 - you can use my thread anytime...LA has a lot of good stuff for you about self care etc...listen - it helped change my attitude almost over night...its amazing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks CL...I guess it makes sense since the reason I have payed such close attention to you is that our situations are so alike.

I guess I forgot to add one thing to my previous post. I went out with some buddies last night, and one of them is a "real ladies man". I tried to act like I was on the prowl, but knew I was only kidding myself...I wanted to be with WW. Everytime I saw a family together, I wanted to be them. I'm not going to lie to myself. I know what I want, I just have to find a way to get it back.

BTW CL, way to stand your ground. You, like I, were an enabler, and once they see they can't tread on us anymore, they start to snap back into reality. Isn't it great to feel okay? Of course we have been better, but it has been so long that we will take "okay"...at least I will...for now.

Hey folks...one other thing i would like to toss out here and get your thoughts on...
to everyone that i have exposed to who have been journeying this with me...they are all telling me (including the phd counselor) that i should seriously be thinking about ending this now. family , friends, etc...
that saving this now will just set me up for the same heartache over again...they have all said that i should also take a look at my relationships and why i would want to be with someone who has in the past and present hurt me so badly.
what is thinking on this out here in MB land.
thanks

It is typical of most people closest to you to suggest that you cut your losses and run. It is likewise typical of those of us at MB to encourage you to do all you can to save your marriage.

The bottom line is that it's totally up to you. No one else stands in your shoes. No one else has to make the decision on whether you can settle for being a full time father, but from afar, or a full time father, but who's XW has visitation rights as set forth by a court of law.

No one else knows how living with your WW impacts you, nor do we know how much you can take.

My suggestion would be to stay with your ever improving Plan A until your LB$ is drained, then continue with the MB program and go to Plan B, before you decide to just chuck it, and move on in your life.

Plan B will force the OM to meet ALL your WW's needs, and she will have to make some serious adjustments if you are not there to give her rides, and coddle her along in her selfish indulgence. Plan B will also give you the chance to isolate yourself from the chaos, and give you time to evaluate your marriage with a clearer mind.

If Plan B is not successful in luring your W back into the marriage, it can still be successful in preparing YOU for a life outside the marriage. It is designed to have this 2-fold benifit.

So, even if you do decide to give up on the marriage, follow the MB plan in doing so. It will leave you much better off in moving to the next stage of your life.

JMHO
SD

thanks sd...again you are on the mark...

I completely agree with SD. I spoke with a counselor today and had a few realizations. I am not going to give up on my marriage. When I spoke with WW, she keeps talking like it is over, but when I ask her why she won't file, she has no answer. This shows me that she WANTS me to file. I won't do it. As SD said, if you move to Plan B, you can prepare for life without her. If she files, you can move on. Her only other option will eventually be to return, unless it is too late from your perspective. Either way, it's kind of a "win win situation". Good luck!

i had session today with IC - again she said i was doing everything right. we talked for awhile about my w and she concluded that my w has alot of serious issues, with anger, jealousy, an inability to be made happy. For years and years i have been running around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to keep her happy - and just as i fulfill one of her desires - or meet a need- she has moved on to the next thing...and whatever i have just done is tossed aside with little or no value. Apparently I am married to a classic narcissist. that if my w was to stay with me i should require she get serious one-on-one counseling - not couples counseling - not there yet...and that even that may not help her come to grips with her issues and patterns.

She said as attractive and charming they can be (which my w is - especially when she finds you attractive or you are new and intriguing to her) BUT they can just as quickly turn on a dime. (which she has done with everyone we know) My w over idealization of people turns to quick and hurtful devaluing of them - and now she is devaluing me.

I have read up on this and do believe her to be correct. She told me my observations of my w were excellent - correct....but i didn't see the depth of how serious her behaviors were. I told her i did see them - but i thought i was immune...i thought she loved me.

then we talked about - why i allowed myself to get involved with her...what attracted me to her...i knew this right away. I love to be the white knight...
protect and serve...make her safe. This has always been a problem for me with women....but i dated nice women too....this woman in the whirlwind of excitement and new love i married.

we discussed the commitment i made to her - and my sticking it out with her really depended on me and how much i was willing to put up with. that i did currently have a responsibility to her - but i should encourage her to look for a job that is steady...have her own life...etc.

she also said she heard a shift happening at home...where the power has shifted in my favor...because w needs me and she is scared...which was interesting because tonight when i picked her up she was all sweety sweety...and i noticed her using ALOT of "we" statements - pertaining to her & I which she has always done (actually to the point of my thinking it was odd) butshe had stopped this completely for the past month 1/2...tonight the WE was back in full force.

anyway ... i'm feeling pretty good....i got my plan in my back pocket...and i am doing and have done everything a person could do for another...

any thoughts on NPD and what it means for my marriage.

There is a shift taking place - this morning she gave me big long hug...she initiated. this is very interesting??? But i am staying in the present and am not going to bother trying to interprete...this foggy language.

Oh, CL...

NPD monster. The disrespectful diagnosis which ends marriages...would God make someone defective? Incurable?

I'm sorry. Even I reached for NPD during my WH's A...and my counselor, truly thanking God here, did not diagnose, confirm or deny, someone who wasn't his patient, which is what yours did. How disrespectful and harmful. My counselor was counseling both of us, separately, and he STILL refused to do that. How do labels help? Shortcuts to answers we want to get out of pain now...doesn't help the other person in anyway.

Like self-soothing by drinking gasoline.

Your counselor is there for your serious issues...to help you stop abusing your wife.

What?

Oh?

Slap me back, but being the pleaser/fixer/saint in your marriage was your ego at work, not your heart. She had to be all those things so you could be the good one, the better one, the one who would sacrifice and drop dead trying to fix another person...saints don't play God. They revere him.

Honey, this isn't me saying you're worse than her or better...just asking you to get to the depth of YOUR issues...you are the only one who can do that. Getting to the depths of her issues is fruitless...they are hers. Continues your abuse to not respect she is as capable, whole, complete and marvelously made as you are. Please stop abusing others through judgment.

It won't make you safe. Like blame, it is acid on your soul. Back away from the acid.

Focus on you...leave NPD where it should be...in her hands, her journey, her issues...and her control. Not yours. And get a new counselor...this one wants to validate and encourage you, just like you did in your marriage, and is stepping over the ethical line of saying that what you see, what you tell, all filtered through your perspective, in bits and pieces (your WW isn't there in her entirety), can be packaged and presented as the problem.

Which rips you off. You're the one to lose from that...if your issues aren't within you, then you are helpless, powerless...choiceless.

Respect, CL. Respect yourself to know you didn't love a NPD'r...that her fears run her life and yours have...you feared not being a good husband, so you over did it, and the more you over did, the more disrespect you put into your relationship, and the more she under did.

I know this saint story...I lived it. I could not see my abuse and therefore, could not stop it. I saw myself as respectful, generous, open, honest, loving and earning the heck of love from my spouse...which I wasn't getting because he wouldn't act loving in the way I could feel it.

Stop. Stop now. Sit back and look at your motives...did you do all of those actions, make all those choices to do for her, because you feared her rejection, or because you chose to love her and act on it, with joy and no expectation?

Do you believe you earn love? Or choose to love?

LA

wow...LA,

im continually amazed with your insight and perspectives....

pretty intuative observations.

I tremble, honestly, Sturg...going against those wise, educated, committed counselors...until I remind myself they are human. They are equal to me in every way. Because they care about CL the way we do, you and I and others, we get sucked into his pain, his frustration and harm...and join with him to stop the source.

I am only now beginning to really understand how many ways to see "The road to ****** is paved by good intentions" can be taken. For the passive-agressive, if their intent is good, then they can do no evil. One way. Another is to not bear truth, but only intend to bear it. Another way to do evil.

We all have inner children, even counselors and the mature. CL's pain connects to that child within us, igniting our fears and wanting to fix as badly as he did in his marriage...and if we allow that disrespect, we injure CL.

Which brings us full circle again.

Hope you bump your thread, Sturg...I enjoy reading to you as much as you inspire me to write to you.

LA