I've been reading a lot of yours posts. It appears that you have helped so many people. From what I have read, please correct anywhere that I am wrong, you really focus on changing as a person to fix your marriage. Which, I believe the majority of the site is about. After all, we are the only ones we can change.

I have not had a chance to read a lot on HEALS, my book will be here sometime next week. Is what you are practicing and asking other people to do a part of this? If so, I do have a few questions if you don't mind.

Even if it isn't, the idea of changing yourself in order to improve your marriage, how much change is too much? Is this about finding yourself and being true to yourself, or about chaning just to please others? I hope none of this sounds disrespectful, I am just trying to understand. I have read some posts on here where people seem to be so into changing, that it appears they start taking on the blame for all of the problems in their marriage. Basically, they feel that if they could just change enough there marriage would be better. This may also be my shield to protect myself lol. I was just curious about your thoughts on all of this.

Hey BTE,

While I'm a little leery of some of the philosophical underpinnings for some foiks who recommend Stosny (NOT talking about anyone on this board)... I like what I've actually read about his work. And I'm curious about it.

Where did you order the book HEALS?

BTE I have been following your last thread. I have seen your mind open up and your focus shift to yourself. That is great. LA has awesome insight! But beware, you're in for quite a ride if you go with her. I mean this in a positive way and hope you take the challenge. After the turbulent, difficult, painful, emotionally exausting ride, you will land in a more peaceful place.

My thoughts on "how much change is too much" is that when you find peace within yourself you will know when you are done. Well, with minor adjustments for ever more, but the crazy turbulent ride will be over and you will find peace and clarity.

"Is this is about finding yourself and being true to yourself". YES YES YES. It is absolutely NOT about changing to please others. Take care of you! Sounds selfish, but it's not. Changes in you may lead to resolving some of the problems in your marriage, or they may not. You will learn what part you play, it takes two to tango so you do have a part. That doesn't mean it is a bad part or you are to blame, just that you have your part just as your H has his. Good luck!

Thanks for sharing your experience jwoman. Sadly, I just don't know if I have any energy left. That's what frightens me. I am already so strung out with my dd's and my dh, emotionally I don't have anything left to give. As it is, what I do give emotionally is so often negative <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your in a downward spiral. Your down and your negativity is bringing you down even further because it is not true to who you are and you are not acting/thinking/behaving according to your own deeply held beliefs. When you get knocked down further by your "uninformed" negative choices, you get even more negative and see less clearly, thus more choices that make you feel worse. See the spiral? There is no recipie anyone can just give you to get you out of the spiral. YOU will need to look into yourself and figure out what is right for you. Stosny, MB (LA and a host of others here) can help you discover your answer.

I too didn't and still don't really have all the energy and strength I needed to do this. H and our relationship had to go on the back burner for a while. Focus is me and my kids right now, and that is how it has to be for me right now. I'm OK with that and I know it is temporary.

HEALS is from Stosny, correct? I have just finished reading "You Don't Have To Take It Anymore" by him and it has helped me "see the light" of my situation and my downward spiral. That part doesn't take all that much energy, just the time to read. His book is different than others I have read or advice from 3 marriage councerlors. He "gets it". I called it profound after I started reading. Once you "see" it yourself and are aware of what is going on, you natuarally make better/more informed choices, which in turn help you feel better about yourself and have more energy. More energy and more self worth leads to better choices and the cycle continues in an upword spiral. Is this the book you are waiting for?

Looking inside yourself can get you out of that downward spiral and give you a new source of energy. I am living in it right now. I have new found emotional energy and even physical energy. I have only just found this site less that two months ago and I was at my personal ROCK BOTTOM then. I even have found new found clarity and energy for my two little ones. This is just a added side effect of what I'm going through, I have not targeted that area my life at all here.

bump for lovinganyway

bump

up

Hey, BTE...

Thank you for the bump...I have to tell you, I have a bad way of looking for posts...to the right, for the names, not to the thread titles.

Ack.

I'm reading this thread now.

So sorry.

LA

That's ok Loving. I have to admit though, I thought I had done something to offend you. I remember in one of your other threads you mentioned you tried to help someone and they blew you off (something to that effect). I went back and read all my old posts to make sure it wasn't me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, Jwo heard you! She's right on, of course. I don't know about HEALS, but thank you for suggesting it. I have a long list to still get to...and am very grateful that people are out there writing all of this for us to get to in our time and need.

She's right about being firm on who you are changing for. Intent matters greatly. I fully understand your belief that there is blame in a marriage...I was there and thought that way.

I don't anymore. There is no blame. There is your part, his part and the marriage. I also understand why you feel so worn down, fatigued from seeing blame and carrying it. When you believe it, well, it can weigh you down into the floor.

Take heart, though...it has a purpose. Everything you have been through, how you've chosen to perceive it, will aid you in your change.

You're goal is to change your beliefs, not your "self." That's why you can get to the point eventually, where you have minor adjustments...staying aware when an old belief wants to plop down in your system and replace a truer one.

I really go for "I" statements...many reasons. Instead of "they feel" is that how you feel? If you just change yourself inside out then your marriage and family will change? When you don't get the outcome you want, you believe you have to change more?

Then your intent, your premise would be your difficulty, not the results.

Changing our beliefs give us immediate, amazing feedback through our emotions. God made humans with emotions as information. They come from your beliefs. Doesn't take anyone else doing anything else (outcome) for your emotions to begin to bolster your energy, delight your senses and reward you enough to go on.

Have you been living from emotions? If you are angry, then that dictates your actions? If you feel loving, then you love?

What you choose your actions and perspectives from matters.

Again...sorry about not seeing your thread. Jwo can attest to having to track me down in another post to get my attention

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LA

LOL on me blowing you off believing you blew me off. I so GET that. LOL. Nah, I'm really red with embarrassment.

First lesson...it's not you, it's me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Ok LA, this is where people usually get frustrated with me. I understand and want to change because I am tired of being angry all of the time. I am tired of being someone my girls fear. I dont like not knowing or being able to control myself from one minute to the next.

However, I still don't get how me changing will really change my marriage. No matter what, my dh and I come from such different places, which I can respect, we can't find somewhere to meet in the middle. I can respect him, his ideas, etc I can have compassion for him. If I don't agree, I still don't agree. Does that make any sense? It still leaves us frustrated because we just don't agree on things. I know we don't have to agree on everything. However, if neither of us are willing to budge, then that leaves us stuck. If one of us budges, it's usually him, and then he feels resentment because things always have to be my way. It's a vicious cycle.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

BTE, can I make a suggestion? You sound like me, where your cr*pmeter, how much cr*p you're willing to put up with and wait out before you see it isn't going to go away on its own and you're going to have to bring it up, is set ridiculously way too high. By then, options that you would have considered in the beginning aren't acceptable anymore, because things got so far out of balance.

As an example that may not be the best one but I remember the best, is about the disciplining the kids. It is so out of hand right now that it probably makes you cringe and listen out every time you hear him call their names, am I right? That's what I am getting at. By establishing a few boundaries, you can find concrete ways to reassure yourself that things aren't going to get so far out of hand anymore. That you have warning signs before that.

Another poster pointed out that those of us with these type of issues, she put it in a gentle way that I don't remember, let me say past traumatic experience? often doubt our own perspective. That is where boundaries help, you think them through when you're calm, so then when you're in the heat of the moment and doubting whether you're being fair and reasonable enough or not, you have clear guidelines you can go along with. Does this make sense? Sound like it would help? Have you tried this already?

With a lot of things, I think you are right. I keep everything in until I can't take it anymore and then I explode. Not very healthy!



It makes a lot of sense. Where I have problems, and maybe yall can help figure it out, is that I don't have enough confidence in myself to stop dh from walking all over my boundaries. The other problem is that what I consider to be unreasonable with the girls, he doesn't. So when I put something in place to avoid it happening, he gets upset (I know that's his issue to deal with). However, it causes huge fights. I can't find that happy medium between my dd7 and my dh.

I know parenting was just situation that I need to place boundaries. I just wish I had the confidence in myself to enforce boundaries. I wish I could enforce them and not blow up. Then it seems the only boundary I can ever think of is leaving. Leaving isn't always a bad thing, at least temporarily, until we cool off. Afterwards, trying to deal with the problem proves to be utter chaos. I am such a mess. Everything leads back to me being angry.

In some ways I have been dealing with it a bit better. At least speaking on it before it gets out of hand. Just not always speaking on it in the best way. For instance, this weekend I had dh's cell phone and noticed there were messages on it. I checked them, all three were from his female friend that lives in another state. This is the friend that I've discussed onhere before. When he was away a couple of summers ago for six weeks he wanted to go stay at her apt for one weekend. Anyhow, she had called him 3 times within a 24 hour period. She just recently got married, well maybe last summer. Anyhow, one of the messages told him exactly what her plans were and that she would have her cell phone right next to her so she could answer when he called and the could talk. Huge red flag for me. First of all 3 times in 24 hours, why didn't she call the house for him. She never calls the house. Only his cell, generally, not always, usually only when he is working. She no longer sends email to our home account, but sends him text messages now. I told him that I felt uncomfortable with the=way they were talking. There was no reason she couldn't call the house for him. He said he would talk to her and have her call thehouse for now on. Well, two nights ago, I noticed that he said good night to me and then hung up and immediately called her while at work. This really triggered things for me. This is what he used to do with his ex-fiance. I didnt'yell this time, I cried told him how it made me feel that it brought back feelings from the past. Shoulda stopped there, but went on to tell him that I would go and find me a male friend that I could have call me all hours of the night only on my cell phone and see how he would like it. I would never do that. I just want him to see how bad his behavior hurts me and he doesn't get it. He doesn't see anything wrong with what he does. I have to accept that. Just like he has to accept I find something wrong with it. Now, what do we do with it?

It's just so so frustrating.

BTE, man that's a tough pill to try to swallow. Do you have the Love Busters book? It talks about what to do when friendships comes between spouses. Get rid of the friend. It's that easy to get wrong, that it's a problem for that many people, to make it into the book.

BTE, I don't have the answer, but I'm pulling for you!

Be careful how you word boundaries, or they get hard to stick to. Feel free to come here for brainstorming.

"Ok LA, this is where people usually get frustrated with me."

Have you asked why they feel frustrated? From your answer, I take it to mean that they are telling you what they see, suggest the areas to work on, and you say, "No, thank you. I don't see getting the result I want from doing that."

Would this be close? No DJ from me intended. I need to understand this very well before I launch myself in the wrong direction.

"I understand and want to change because I am tired of being angry all of the time."

You want to change to stop a feeling from regularly presenting itself to you, is that correct? Can you trace your anger to your beliefs? Anger is a signal that someone is crossing your boundaries--or it's twin cousin (like Patty Duke) Resentment is a signal someone is failing your expectations.

You trace your emotions back to a belief...you say the sunset looks like orange sherbet and your DH says it looks like a sunset...do you feel angry? Resentful? Unheard? Disapproved of? Attacked? Tell me what you hear.

"I am tired of being someone my girls fear. I dont like not knowing or being able to control myself from one minute to the next."

Excellent honesty, BTE...great prognosis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I'm not a doctor...I just played one as a kid.

Seriously...ownership is half your battle...so this level of honesty is a great sign of your commitment to change. The problem with wanting to change because we are tired from not changing (resistance), is that when we change a little, lessen the slack, we get more energy and stop. Good enough, sort of. And find ourselves going back to be the way we were, slowly but surely, and the second try is tougher than the first, the third, the 15th...gets harder each time because we are telling ourselves the same thing--I'm tired of this, and this again, and again, which creates the belief in us that we can never truly change.

Have you been trying different things to control your anger rather than understand it, trace it back to where it begins?

Have you looked at anger (at any emotion you feel) as information? Good, solid, plain information? Have you uncovered in your life some things you believed at one time but changed your mind about later? We accumulate beliefs within us...from our earliest consciousness to our present day. Resentment comes from old beliefs you might not even know you still have. If you believe that you get as good as you give, then you'll create resentment in yourself when you don't get what you expected.

Like beliefs, resentment piles on and over other emotions...usually the good ones. Like love, peace, acceptance. You're not alone. You're human. You're seperate and equal to all others. You're not defective; there's nothing "wrong" with you. You have a journey. Anger is part of it right now...it is signalling you that your beliefs are cluttered, contradictory--that something is attacking you, eating at you from the outside--and the inside--and wants you to replace some old beliefs.

Boundary enforcement doesn't take confidence...it takes the knowledge of an appropriate boundary and the courage to enforce it. Checking to make sure it is reasonable, around yourself and not others. Your marriage, which is seperate from you...there's you, your DH and The Marriage has a boundary. It says, "Marriage has two humans; no third parties." Okay, Dr. Harley says it so much better. When we forsake all others, that isn't a hermits marriage, but one that agrees to same sex friendships as the choice we make to honor our marriage, even if our spouses' aren't doing that. So first, check your own friendships...if you have opposite sex friendships from way back, with no inappropriate behavior (sharing your intimate thoughts, feelings and beliefs with them), could be that because you have this friendship, it is interferring with you enforcing a boundary around your marriage because you do not want to be the pot calling the kettle black...or for it to look that way.

Your threat to do the same thing was a great admission to show how you view your marriage, yourself and your DH, with the dynamic that what I do/don't, you do/don't...which makes each of your behaviors hinge on the other; a reactive marriage.

You picked a boundary issue to answer me about how to know that you are seperate and equal, that each can have their own thoughts, feelings and belief and to respect each other for those. See my example of the sunset. LOL

When we are in conflict, we tend to choose the perspective that highlights differences that matter, which also leads us to see everything as differences that matter. If you were only dealing with just this boundary issue, would you be as seething, angry and defensive as you feel right now?

I can help you to clear out the other stuff, the piled up junk you have accumulated, to get to your reasonably informative feelings...right now, they are being exaggerated for many reasons...trying to stop anger makes the signal stronger; denying anger, same result; confusing anger with resentment gives you license to make a lot more of it; having boundaries around other people in the guise of protecting; having unreasonable expectations...and believing that humans act from their feelings and you're human, therefore, you can act from your feelings, well, you can see how you would give yourself permission to display your anger.

Also, if you believe your DH or DD causes your pain/anger, then you will have given yourself license to make them feel your emotions...when they are yours.

What do you think so far? If you want me to hop off your thread, I know you will ask me. No qualms, or regrets. Your boundary. I will respect you in any choice you make...because it is your choice. No judgment.

LA

The statement below is why I believe people usually get frustrated with me. I just don't get it.






I'm pretty sure my anger comes from a couple of different feelings. I feel as if I have no control over my life. My life is pretty much dedicated to my girls and my husband. I can't find that balance that includes me, mom, and wife together. In my mind I know I made all the choices that have led me to where I am today. It's not a bad place, just not what I expected out of my life. I am sure there is some resentment towards my family because of it. Even though I made the choices to put myself in the position I am in now.

I also know that it comes from feeling very inadequate. When my girls complain or aren't happy, for some reason, I take it personally as if they are telling me I am not good enough. This is also with my husband. I take his actions and put the blame for them on me. I KNOW that his porn use and his EA are his to deal with. However, I feel that if I was good enough he wouldn't have gone elsewhere. If I was the wife I should be he wouldn't have strayed. My mind knows, I can grasp the concept, I just can't seem to convince the rest of me.



More than anything I would probably be angry as if he is disapproving of my feelings. It would be like "hello it's so obvious just look,"


Awww yes, I have done this dance many times. My dh can tell ya too. I will will really focus on controlling my anger, and will do well for awhile, then it all blows up again. HOnestly, I think part of it is because I have just been trying to find ways to deal with it, the anger, instead of the causes of the anger. The resentment, feelings of inadequacy etc.



This is exactly what I have been doing. Trying to walk away (time out), count before saying or doing anything. I've read 60 seconds to anger management. ALl of these seem to be such common sense approaches and they only make me angrier lol. Ok, not funny, but it's the whole idea that anger management help only makes me angrier. I have not always been this way. In fact, I was very rarely ever angry up until dh's EA. Ever since then the anger just flows from me. It's such an awful draining place to be.



I think this is a big one. I always grew up believing that if my husband cheated, I would be gone. No second thoughts, just gone. I did it when my oldest daughters dad cheated on me (we weren't married) but there was no question that once he cheated the relationship was over. I always looked as women who stayed as weak, (I don't mean this to offend anyone) just how I believed things to be. I feel even weaker that I am in no place to leave. I always saw successful as working full time, still being able to run the home, have the kids, but in my vision careers was the most important thing. I see what I do,staying home, as unimportant. I hate myself for believing that being a sahm is trivial. Then I get angry at the kids because for some reason I shift blame to them, as if they make me stay home. Oh my, I am just one big mess.



I really have no confidence in myself to enforce a boundary. I don't have any friendships like this. I guess I feel guilty, because my husband in the past has said he gave up so many of his female friends to make me happy. This one particular friend, they went through boot camp together, korea, and a whole lot of other stuff. We used to live about 45 minutes away from her and would visit her every now and then. She spoke to me then, she would call the house, etc. I think that I have problems forcing this boundary because it's my insecurities. He has said that he will ask her to call the house for him from now on if she wants to talk. I know he can't force her to. I also don't want to nag about it so much that he lies to be about their conversations. I do have access to the phone bills. I know they talk probably 4-5 times a month give or take.



It's really strange, this is the first time I have ever responded like this. During the porn, his EA, I never even mentioned playing the tit for tat. I'm not sure why I all of a sudden responded this way.


Probably not. Like my dh says when I fight I throw everything out there. I just get so angry that everything from before we even got married comes barreling forward. I don't think I have every properly dealt with all of the feelings so they are sitting there right below the surface waiting to boil over.



Yes, I know. Then I start to hate myself even more because I see how I break my little girls hearts.



I wold love for you to stay. I really appreciate your time. I know that I jump around a lot and a lot of it probably doesn't make sense. I apologize for that, it's pretty much how things are always bouncing around in my mind.

My dh ishome tonight, so I am going to go spend some time with him now. Thank you!

BTE,

Great start, IMO...

"I feel as if I have no control over my life."

Let's begin by tweaking your truthful statement...

"I believe I have no control over my life."

Would you say that was true? See the difference between a feeling and a belief? Also...the other implies a guess...because it was based on feeling. Is this truer?

Pretend I'm an optometrist...Better? Worse? Better? Worse?

Which brings me to a fresh analogy...changing your beliefs, which include changing your perception, is very much like a trip for new glasses. Some things are obvious, some are not. Some are aggravatingly so not obvious you might feel compelled to lie instead of saying, "I don't know." I'm trusting you to say when you don't know. No judgment...solid information.

Back to my semantics fetish:

"My life is pretty much dedicated to my girls and my husband."

Would "I choose to dedicate my life to my girls and my husband" be your truth?

"I can't find that balance that includes me, mom, and wife together." Not being clever, but you can't find a balance outside yourself. It is within. It comes from your power of choice. A thousand of them. What you choose to do for you, BTE, for the kids, and for your H.

"In my mind I know I made all the choices that have led me to where I am today." I think you understand that you are responsible for where you are in the present. I believe that. I do not believe you know all your choices in the past or present. Becoming aware of these choices, especially the tiny ones which fly by you like gnats, is what I would like you to commit to.

"It's not a bad place, just not what I expected out of my life." Great on already identifying your expectation may give you resentment!

"I am sure there is some resentment towards my family because of it." Uhm, double kudos.

"Even though I made the choices to put myself in the position I am in now." Clarification point...your resentment was directly created by your choices. I don't understand the "Even though" part.

"I also know that it comes from feeling very inadequate." How does resentment come from believing (you notice the difference) very inadequate?

"When my girls complain or aren't happy, for some reason, I take it personally as if they are telling me I am not good enough." You did the same with your parents. You took on responsibility that was not yours. Tell me why you did this as a child and choose to continue to do so as an adult.

"This is also with my husband. I take his actions and put the blame for them on me." You do this with everyone in your life...a comment by a cashier at the store, the friend of your acquaintance...same reason as above. You choose to take offense, see rejection, and believe you are left behind in some way.

"I KNOW that his porn use and his EA are his to deal with. However, I feel that if I was good enough he wouldn't have gone elsewhere." I believe that where you insert a but (however, yet, etc.) you negate what you said before that but. You know his choices are his? Each and every one of the thousands I said you had?

You believe that if you were good enough to keep him from his choices, he wouldn't have strayed? Is that correct?

"If I was the wife I should be he wouldn't have strayed." Thank you for sharing this very deep belief. Please consider this...you are owning what isn't yours and not owning what is...so you wouldn't feel a difference. Could that be close to your truth?

We have thousands of beliefs stored inside of us. Did you ever hear, growing up, "If she had been enough for him, he wouldn't have left her." "If she had kept him happy, he wouldn't have needed anyone else." "Men are not monogamous: Women have to train them to be." We over hear them in churches, picnics...family gatherings...little pitchers have big ears. Could this be one you overheard and believed?

"My mind knows, I can grasp the concept, I just can't seem to convince the rest of me.

Can you see better how you have several conflicting beliefs...we all do...which is how you "get it" but "don't get it"...comes and goes? You aren't anything but a complete, whole and marvelously made human. Weeding out our beliefs takes replacing them. We can't get rid of them like garbage and change anything. First, we choose not to act from the belief when we know we have it. Then we work on replacing our old beliefs with our adult ones, instead of piling them in on top of each other. Like the to-be-donated pile...you have to sort through all of them, find the payoff you have from believing them by searching the pockets, and carefully show yourself your replacement belief.

"More than anything I would probably be angry as if he is disapproving of my feelings. It would be like "hello it's so obvious just look," Thank you for your honesty. I'm thrilled this is within your power. From your answer, you know that you believe your H disapproves of your feelings. Whether he does or not isn't relevant. Look at that belief.

You also know that you believe what you see is what everyone sees. If it is plain as day to you, it should be to others.

And you know what that first sentence I copied was about...that you are confused as to what is a belief and what is a feeling, because you interchange them as they come to your mind. If you said what I made up, "you say the sunset looks like orange sherbet" you would be sharing how something looks to you...your thoughts...no feelings in there. If you felt safe from judgment, you might expand that to include, "Oh, I'm feeling nostalgic, childish. I can remember watching so many sunsets growing up, felt them sneek by me in full view." Which are feelings and beliefs.

Now, take time to know your truths: You don't feel safe. You wouldn't have shared. You believe your H disapproves of your feelings; most likely, those include your thoughts and beliefs, too. Bottom line...do you believe your H disapproves of you?

To stay focused and not stray to him (no pun intended)...would you consider that your H might not disapprove of you and all that is yours (thoughts, feelings and beliefs)? What if he disapproved of believing he is responsible for your feelings, not the feelings themselves? That your anger means he was bad. That your resentment means he made you; that your happiness lays in his hands? Overwhelming rather than disapproval?

Let me try this mathematically...because what I believe now is unreasonable, others who are in it often do not have my perspective.

Let's throw out there 1354 beliefs, 150 emotions, and, uhm, how many thoughts? Well, we have as many as what, one per second? Okay, maybe adding all that together isn't the best analogy...feel overwhelmed yet? Big number...now grab that great big number and shove it onto your H's shoulders (broad or not)...and be sure then to drag that same number from his hands and lift it up onto your shoulders. Is this reasonable? Doable? What humans are made for? Where do you put that same number from your children (okay, maybe their beliefs haven't it a number...their speed of thought might make up for it), onto your shoulders, and your parents'...and everyone you've ever met. If you have everyone else's thoughts, feelings and beliefs and he has all of yours (and everyone else he chooses), then do you wonder why you feel out of control of your life? It's over there...on his shoulders. You have no more room for it.

Good news...everyone has shoulders. They have infinite capacity to hold their own stuff. It's theirs, afterall. They own it. Even your children. No burden to them...oh, wait...if you're holding all their stuff, then that would mean, yep, they would see that they are responsible for all of your thoughts, feelings and beliefs, right? So you huge number is doubled, one on each of them...and their shoulders are so small.

I am in no way wanting to demean. This is a concept many struggle with here on the boards. I'm attempting something new...not flip or DJ...an image to really get why we are all seperate and equal, capable and not defective. Our stuff is our stuff. Intimacy does not mean being responsible for everyone's stuff or you're not connected. Until you only hold your stuff, are only responsible for it, then you will not have the freedom to see others as the people they are--and if you can't see them new, every day, how can you accept them? Love them? Honor them?

You are not responsible for anyone's happiness...God didn't give us that control. You are a part of it. By our very presence, we influence, affect, contribute...not a word spoken or a sacrifice given.

"I will will really focus on controlling my anger, and will do well for awhile, then it all blows up again. HOnestly, I think part of it is because I have just been trying to find ways to deal with it, the anger, instead of the causes of the anger. The resentment, feelings of inadequacy etc."

To focus on controlling your anger is not what we're doing here. We are tracing the source of your anger to your beliefs. Your anger is a result of your belief, not the cause. We know that treating a symptom doesn't cure the illness, right? Forgive yourself for all the effort you made to suppress information within yourself, instead of understanding it.

Focusing in on the symptom, anger...

Anger is a secondary emotion. Trace it to your primary one. For instance, you open you mouth and describe a sunset. Your H does not give you the response you expect...he says his own opinon, that he sees a sunset. First emotion you felt? Fear. You opened your mouth and said something. Fear he will disapprove, negate, disparage. He opens his mouth...you are inflamed...anger lurches up and chokes you. Why? You were right to fear! The man said it was a sunset!!! How abusive! Nope...anger is coming from your fear. If your H controls you, carries all of your stuff, then he better darn treat it right...correct? You feared his response because you depended on it, are changed by it (your choice) and his response is critically important. Even in his sharing he only sees a sunset, you heard you're wrong, you're seeing it wrong, and wanted to say, "Hey, just look at it!" to prove you weren't wrong.

BTE...he isn't saying you're wrong. He's saying what he sees, which isn't the same. You can both look at anything, at the same time, and see different things altogether. Think of thoughts, feelings and beliefs as sunsets. He has his and you have yours. We all do. We wish very hard we could merge, that there would be one truth, same thing to see in the same way...because then we wouldn't be alone, couldn't be abandoned (we'd be one) and then, finally, we would be safe.

We aren't.

Know that we've already gotten to three causes...within you...that you believe you are inadequate, are responsible for others' stuff and have given away your own. None of these are your H's doing or anyone else's. They are your beliefs. Your power. Your choice to believe.

Now, as a self, I'd be ticked. All the time. 24/7! LOL. I'm laughing because I was...this self. I was ticked...I know God created me whole and complete...in NO way inadequate. Self was there...self knows. Self knows it only has itself and God...no merging possible. No throwing away old self and becoming new self...Self is. Self just is. Gets ticked when it is told by you that it is powerless, and must sacrifice. Why? Why do this to self? What did self ever do?

We aren't doing it entirely to our self...we are doing it to the image we created over the years of our self...believed cruelty was bad...toss out cruelty...believes anger is bad bad...suppress, control...like anger was part of self...it is a feeling, not a choice...that we have bad parts of ourselves...which God made...for what purpose?

We are not bad. How can we be made in his image if we are bad? Inadequate? Useless? Powerless?

I'm talking more to your beliefs than to you, BTE. I believe you already know this in your head, your reasoning and seeing...I am speaking directly to your beliefs. Write down any that come out to refute, argue or disprove. They are important ones. Old, hard to get to ones. Valuable.

"In fact, I was very rarely ever angry up until dh's EA. Ever since then the anger just flows from me. It's such an awful draining place to be." Would you consider that you have felt anger often, before EA, but because you weren't justified, felt like it was your fault you were angry, that you didn't process it in the same way? Gave no license to it, yet you had it in the same amounts all along?

"I always grew up believing that if my husband cheated, I would be gone." Another belief...you are good at this. Seriously.

"I always looked as women who stayed as weak," Another belief.

"I feel even weaker that I am in no place to leave." Praise God that you are in no place to leave. I mean that with all my heart. You already ended your first DD's family with this belief...had you been strong in your position, you might have done it again. And again. Poor them. Poor you. Know why? This is an unreasonable belief.

Find your payoff.

Is it punishment? Self-respect? (No self-respecting woman stays with a cheater!) Is it fear of it recurring and you being betrayed again and again? To be a victim over and over again? Is it ... what? Where's the payoff? Do you feel stronger of conviction, self-care and protection by breaking up life-long relationships (due to children) for something that has nothing to do with you? That is outside your control and choices?

You are choosing to view yourself as weak right now, due to this belief you have harbored long before you were an adult. Is that reasonable? Is that your chosen adult belief after all you've learned about humans?

I believe you are where you are right now so God can reach you with both hands.

"I always saw successful as working full time, still being able to run the home, have the kids, but in my vision careers was the most important thing." A well defined belief. Let me ask you...those mothers who don't support themselves, have independence, choose to have a career other than being themselves...are they not successful, or are they vulnerable and unprotected?

"I see what I do,staying home, as unimportant. I hate myself for believing that being a sahm is trivial." I believe you see it as dependent, less than, that you are inadequate because no else is defining your value and accomplishments.

"Then I get angry at the kids because for some reason I shift blame to them, as if they make me stay home." Does this ring any bells with your childhood? How you viewed your mother or grandmother? Aunts?

"Oh my, I am just one big mess." Thank goodness you are. Can't get to see yourself as complete, IMO, until you are one big mess.

"I really have no confidence in myself to enforce a boundary." If you believe you are inadequate, why would you?

"I guess I feel guilty, because my husband in the past has said he gave up so many of his female friends to make me happy." ----------sound of screeching tires on asphalt--------whoa. Stop. You have thousands of beliefs like the ones above that are tormenting you. Put his belief down. Now. Back away from it, hands in the air. It isn't yours. Stop believing it. He chose you. He still chooses you. You are his choice. No sacrifice involved.

Move slowly away from that property, Ma'am...it isn't yours to do anything with but know it as information. His information.

Whew. That was close. Could you carry 1354 beliefs of your own and still reach out and take what isn't yours? You are a marvel!

Guilt is not meeting others' expectations. Shame is not meeting your own.

Know the difference. It is an emotion packed with information. I think that's why God made those two really yucky...guilt is so yucky, we know it isn't ours. Shame, has a different yuckiness, a secret one...hard to tell the difference between them. Know your yuckiness.

"I think that I have problems forcing this boundary because it's my insecurities." Until you know you are equal to all others, made whole and complete, BTE, by God (don't question him, I'm warning you)...then you won't be able to make reasonable boundaries about yourself...for others or yourself. That's okay. You can take some boundaries on faith. Scriptural ones, even. Hint. Hint.

Ever hear of "fake it 'til you make it"? There's nothing fake about it. You fear. You know you fear. You look at your fear, nod, and choose to act anyway. Each time you do this, your fear shrinks...and becomes the little girl beside you it was all along. You are no more confident, worthy or valuable in your own eyes then when you acted in fear...instead of. You chose to not act in fear...react. You chose to act. By the very doing you are being.

I wonder if you wished I wouldn't switch back and forth from familiar to vague, huh?

"He has said that he will ask her to call the house for him from now on if she wants to talk." He is making a commitment to acknowledge your discomfort, your fear. That's honorable. He is only willing to go just that far and no further yet, because of his own beliefs. I read what you wrote before...how often they talk, that she's newly married and you have red flags. Pushing the boundary farther than either you or he believes is reasonable right now isn't nuts. Isn't weak. Here is where your original frustrating quality comes in...we don't have boundaries because we want another person to change their thoughts, feelings or beliefs. We have them to change our own.

Each time you look at your fear, stroke her hair, murmur you acknowledge her presence, and hold her hand while you go straight into what she feared, you teach her it is okay to fear, just not act from it. This changes you, slowly, progressively; tells self you're looking out for self, not disrespecting, neglecting or ignoring self. Telling Self, "you matter to me." How much less anger, fear and frustration will you feel when you act from adult beliefs, anyway? You will change.

If you choose to not shoulder others' stuff, choose to live respectfully, believing everyone can carry their own...your H will change. This is how it works. Not because he's making it happen...digging and searching as you are right now...but he will change because he will be lighter, freer, when you hand him back his stuff...it WILL be his. He doesn't have to have it explained to him, educated about...don't you think he'll see the difference? He's a grown, thinking man. With his own stuff back!!!

You change you...and everyone changes. Will it be immediate? Just how you want them to change? Will they be who you want them to be, when you want them to be it?

No. That would be more abuse. You have no control over anyone else...your human limit. You have influence. Others allow your influence or don't. That's where boundaries come in...choosing your beliefs. You have a boundary that says put H's beliefs down. You live it. You enforce it in yourself...it is you picking them up, touching what isn't yours. Believing what isn't your truth.

"I know he can't force her to." This is a lie. Your H can choose to change his cell, home phone, and email. Not forcing her, but removing her access.

"I also don't want to nag about it so much that he lies to be about their conversations." You don't control his honesty. He does. You control your abuse...nagging is reminding someone else of their failure to meet your expectation. You say it once. That is being O&H. To repeat is to disrespect.

"I do have access to the phone bills. I know they talk probably 4-5 times a month give or take." 4-5 times a month may be what flags an A for you. Not for me. Our mileage may vary. 3 times in one weekend doesn't sound like 4-5 times a month. Remember, I couldn't even do the huge number above.

Tit for tat. Your response surprised you. You may not have given yourself permission to voice it unless you reached critical mass. Did you have it within you? Do you believe you earn love?

I should have asked about carrying all the stuff on our shoulders...do you believe you do that?

"Like my dh says when I fight I throw everything out there. I just get so angry that everything from before we even got married comes barreling forward. I don't think I have every properly dealt with all of the feelings so they are sitting there right below the surface waiting to boil over."

If you are bringing the past into the present, then you are not angry in the present. You are accumulating grievances that you believe your H hasn't resolved, when really, it's you, BTE. You have the power to clear out the resentments you made. You have the power to not make a single other resentment in your life. Sound good?

"Yes, I know. Then I start to hate myself even more because I see how I break my little girls hearts." Wanna know something really scary? YOu're not breaking their hearts...you are making them like you--passing it on. Abuse begats abuse and on down it goes.

I stopped when my children were 15, 19 and 21...stop now, reap more rewards. Live in blessings and gratitude. Be joyous. Your choice.

No need to choose to hate yourself (it is a manufactured emotion suited for the purpose of driving you away from something...don't drive yourself away from yourself, 'k?).

"I really appreciate your time." I really appreciate yours.

"I know that I jump around a lot and a lot of it probably doesn't make sense." This is a DJ to self. Stop. " I apologize for that, it's pretty much how things are always bouncing around in my mind." You were as focused and introspective as anyone I've ever met. This image in your head has got to go. See your reality. Read your own post. It is amazingly honest, direct and your truth. Own it.

LA

P.S. Ever doubt your level of commitment? LOOK at the length of my post. Whoa. Now that's commitment...to write and to read. Be well.