Hi LA!

Thank you for the post. I have read it many times, trying to digest and think about it all. It has been a terribly long day so I will wait until tomorrow to respond.

I just wanted to throw something out there that happened today. It's not the first time it's happened, but I'm finally starting to realize, I think at least, why it bothers me so much.

My dh and I come from very very different backgrounds. To start with he is blk and I am white. I was raised primarily by my father in a middle class home. We weren't rich by any means, but I never really went without either. My dh was raised primarily by his mother, in probably a lower class home. I was raised in Ca, he was raised in Va. So, we have the racial difference, geographical difference, and the economical differences. I don't say this as one is better than the other, they just are. However, I'm sure one can see how we tend to see things very differently. We both bring a lot to offer, but the differences can cause a lot of problems also.

Ok, with that said, I have noticed more and more lately, when my dh and I are talking, I will ask questions because I don't understand something. He gets frustrated and tells me I'm not listening to him. In the past, I just get angry and throw a tantrum etc. It started again tonight. We were talking about food, he is the cook in the family. I was trying to understand what a whole chicken wing was. Some may laugh, I honestly had no idea. I thought a wing was just that little tiny piece you get when you order wings at a restraunt. I didn't understand it included the drum part also. I truly didn't understand this. He kept explaining it the same way over and over, of course I kept asking questions. Once again, I got the "you aren't listening". I was so hurt. It dawned on me that to me I felt like he was saying your stupid. I finally asked him to please stop telling me what I"m not doing. I am listening I just don't understand. I said it hurts me when he tells me I'm not listening and it makes me not want to talk to him because I don't feel safe in doing so. I realized just how hard it is for me to talk to him lately. I feel embarrased and like I'm an idiot. I KNOW I'm not stupid, I just feel that way when I talk to him. I'm sure part of it is that we now live in the South, things are so different here for me. I am seeing things I've never seen before, just culturally different. I ask him questions because I want to know and learn, but I don't always understand it.

I don't say thing to belittle him. I'm sure it's just a communication issue. I just wish he could see I value his input, I really do. I want to learn from him, but if I don't get it the first 10 times by saying it the same way, I"m not going to get it the next 10 times.

I am just glad tonight I stopped and thought about why I was getting so upset, instead of just screaming and yelling to protect myself from being vulnerable.

Dh is asking me to come to bed. He has to be up in 5 hours for work. I will post a reply tomorrow to the other thread.

I hope you had a great day!

I look forward to hearing again from you. Each time, you add, not take away.

Okay, for your morning hello...

"when my dh and I are talking, I will ask questions because I don't understand something. He gets frustrated and tells me I'm not listening to him. In the past, I just get angry and throw a tantrum etc."

Would you consider doing the Listen and Repeat for now? When communication gets messed up, which it does, from assumptions and mindreading, sometimes we have to start over...not in our conversations, but in our commitment.

I know you are listening. This is not my suggestion because you are doing anything wrong, bad or offensive. It is to clean your slate, so to speak, and begin again.

In your conversation tonight, pretend you began with a question about wings. He answered your question. You had previous beliefs...not that you didn't know, but that you had assumed something about wings...they were what they looked like, detached from the chicken. Know that you had a thought about them and was hearing your H say something totally different...hard to comprehend for you.

Listen and repeat his response, "I hear you saying that leg quarters are this part of the chicken?" I'm interpreting here, making stuff up...it is what I do. I am assuming you didn't have a visual...a whole chicken sitting there for visual information.

(A pertinent aside: I can't remember how the parts of a chicken go together. I can't. I was reared in Southern California, in a middle class home, and my stepmother wouldn't let my sister or me in the kitchen 'cuz it made her nervous. When I did discover chickens de flagrante, I was in a tiny kitchen in Arkansas...I kid you not...freshly married. So I used "leg quarters" because my H showed me how to cut up a chicken. Are you hearing me now, BTE? I do get you. Can't help it. Also, you should know, I HATE chicken now. Truly. Utterly. Too much chicken. Chicken tastes like depression to me. But I digress...)

When you listen and repeat, his repeating stops. You aren't arguing, you are asking for confirmation you heard correctly. He'll know you heard him. He will either clarify or confirm you heard him. That doesn't mean you understood him.

Also, take note, that saying "You're not listening to me" is a DJ. A big one. It is telling another person what they are doing in the security of their own selves. Your response to hearing this will be fear and anger...fear you are doing it...that quick second of checking your actions that you didn't do before...and then anger at him for telling you what you aren't doing that you really are.

See how emotions are signals? Now I believe you know he intended to say, "I don't feel heard. I don't know how else to say what I'm saying." Because that is what you would be saying, if you were committed to "I" statements and knew about DJs, right?

Now, you can't control what he says, means or that he repeats in the same way. You know this. What you can do is stop asking your questions under the belief that you just aren't asking the right ones or in the right way. This is self-betrayal and will feed your pain and anger.

Oh, you'll be feeling pain, too. Pain comes from others defining us, mostly. Telling us who we are. That's why A's hurt us through our very essence, crush us with pain...because that is someone else telling us we aren't enough.

Anyway, him defining you...your intent to not hear and your not listening to him...there's a bit of pain.

Do you wonder why you felt these emotions now?

Look at your beauty, BTE..."I was so hurt. It dawned on me that to me I felt like he was saying your stupid. I finally asked him to please stop telling me what I"m not doing."

Here's your beauty--that you stayed aware, even in pain, to know that he wasn't saying you were stupid...you were hearing it. Different. Not the same at all. Ownership is what you did. You told Self, "Okay, I am thinking I'm stupid and hearing my H say it because he's repeating and I'm not getting the picture. I'm not stupid, Self. I'm just not understanding this right now." Pain ease. Right there. See how it isn't just others defining us? We DJ ourselves, prepared to see rejection where it is not.

Super, BTE. That, in itself, was beautiful. Here's where you got to sunset beautiful: "I said it hurts me when he tells me I'm not listening and it makes me not want to talk to him because I don't feel safe in doing so."

You spoke. You shared what was going on in your head and heart. Both. Courageous and kind.

Work on the "I" statements more, and this could have stopped the chicken talk in it's tracks. (Yeah, I'm corney.)

"I said I feel pain when he tells me I'm not listening. I don't feel safe to talk or be honest...feel like I have to pretend to get what I don't get and betray us both."

See your beauty?

You owned that it was your pain, your anger, your fear. You did that. And you stayed honest and intimate even though you feared. That's a sunset, baby. Truly is...and you get this, too...because you said "I am just glad tonight I stopped and thought about why I was getting so upset, instead of just screaming and yelling to protect myself from being vulnerable."

So you don't have a problem with false modesty. You have the geniune kind. Know that. You stayed aware of your thoughts and emotions, chose not to react (you revoked that permission, didn't you?), and acknowledged your own emotional upset. (Upset isn't an emotional...shorthand for emotional upset; which doesn't tell you what you're feeling. Don't make me type that again.)

I think you see how reacting, screaming, yelling, arguing when there is nothing to argue against (really) doesn't protect you from being vulnerable. You just used to believe it did. That rage, that entitlement, gave you a surge of power...it was a feeling, not real power. Choice to destroy so that you wouldn't be destroyed. These come from toddler stage...far, far back. Maybe ancestral...maybe when we hunted in loincloths. Not really a belief you would choose today, would you?

"I feel embarrased and like I'm an idiot." Here's more differences between beliefs and feelings...you felt embarrassed for not understanding when you could see your H wasn't talking over your head or making fun of you. You felt embarrassment because you failed to meet your own expectation to get this thing you believed was simple. You believe if you don't comprehend something simple then you fail. Failure means embarrassment. A signal. Not a fact.

False belief, huh? Hurtful belief? What do you think? Needs replacing, maybe?

You can't feel like an idiot, btw. We say it often, which teaches everyone that it is a feeling instead of a belief. You have the belief that if you fail your own expectation then you are an idiot.

I think both of those beliefs came from about 5 years old, what do you think? Little worn out around the edges? Like a baby blanket sucked dry?

No judgment..we ALL have these in us. We're collectors, pack rats with them. You just got some cleaning to do.

"I just wish he could see I value his input, I really do." Don't go here yet, 'k? You can't make him see you value his input. You can only state it once. He will know. He has his own filters, fears, reactions, what he hears and what he believes. He's like you. Honestly. Trust him to find his way, too.

By wanting to make him see...(wishful child), see if that means you want to fix this...so that these episodes of bad communication don't repeat themselves. Is your wish coming from this desire to fix for good? Forever?

Thank you for your post. You made my night! (Oh, yeah...I know you can't make it...aren't allowed...impossible...I see you as the gift you are...so I get to say that, you don't!)

LA

Good Morning LA!

It's a beautiful day here. Sun is out, it's warm, I just want to grab a blanket and a book and lay outside all day.



I do see the difference. A belief is something that can be reprogrammed. It can be changed. Generally, feelings are just what they are. If you are sad, you are sad. Yes, you can do things to make you feel better, but they aren't like beliefs that can be reprogrammed.



This may sound selfish. I don't know if I choose to dedicate my life to my girls or if I believe it's what I'm supposed to do. I think if I could find a way to work and not believe that I'm wrong for enjoying my career I would do it. Does that make sense?



Right. It's a balance I haven't gotten down yet. I haven't found the happy medium where I believe that I have enough time for all of them. So that noone, including myself, feels neglected.



Would you mind expanding on this a little further. I'm not sure I understand thte part of knowing all of my choices past or present. Is this meaning that I am perhaps not exploring all of my options, only what seems obvious? Kinda like there is either right or wrong?



The even though is because I know I made the choices, it's not my family doing. Despite having this knowledge I still choose to hold resentment towards them for it.



I don't know why I do this. I'm sure there are strong FOO issues here. My mom left when I was three. I don't ever remember her living with us. For some reason, I always took the blame for everything, even when it wasn't mine. I always said sorry. My dad and my step-mom argued A LOT. I always tried to be perfect to stop them from fighting. OF course, it didn't work, there was always something else to argue about. When they divorced my dad was going through a rough time. I was in high school by then. My Dad was on his third divorce, he was injured at work, so he wasn't working he was very depressed. I remember one day I was in his room and I found a notebook he had. It was dated a couple weeks earlier, it said he had gone to the beach that day with his gun. He was going to kill himself but he couldn't because of me. I was his only reason for living. I never told him I found that notebook. It just added to my feeling of being responsible for everyones happiness. Even today, if I know my Dad is hurt or upset, I get down, as if I am responsible for his happiness. Had I just done this or that better, maybe he would be ok.



Left behind, <sigh> Perhaps it's a feeling I know oh too well. As I said above, my mom left when I was three years old. Left my brother (who is not my dad's bio son) and me with my Dad. She didn't want us anymore. I have been told that she wasn't mentally stable. Somehow, somewhere, I have always believed that it was me she couldn't handle. Something was wrong with me, why else would a mom just leave her child. My older brother eventually went back to live with her, I stayed with my Dad. I am grateful, as I know my mom did not live a good life. She was into drugs, very unhealthy lifestyle. She was in and out of my life. I remember I was in 5th grade and she told me she would pick me up from school and never show up. I would sit there for hours waiting. I didn't want to call my Dad, I knew she would show up. I would eventually call my Grandma (her mom), because the school noticed I was still out there, and have her come get me. I wouldn't see or hear from my mom for months after that. I always blamed myself. I graduated from 8th grade, 30 minutes before the graduation she called and said she would be there. She never showed up, called a couple of days later and said her stomach hurt. I was never important enough. Even now as an adult, I and my children often get the same treatment from her. She wouldn't come to my daughters b-day party which was 2 1/2 hours because she couldn't ride in the car that long. However, she would drive 3 1/2 hours, through the town we live in to pick up my brothers children for him to see them. Ok, I'm gettin sidtracked, and this isn't IC. Sorry about the LA. Just noticed where so many of my beliefs come from.



This is correct. Very true



I am sure it is. Especially watching my father cheat on two of his wives. If I didn't hear it, I'm sure I saw it.



Yes I do. I am also starting to see how people how two people can look at the same exact thing and see two totally different things. We each come to this point with our own past that filters how we see things now.



No, I don't believe he disapproves of me as a person. Perhaps, he disapproves of my behavior at times, I do too.



I can see this. Especially since I have laid so much blame on him for my unhappiness. I am doing the same thing to him that I have believed was done to me growing up. That I am responsible for everyone elses happiness, therefore, someoen else must be responsible for mine. That is so wrong, he isn't responsible for my feelings or my happiness.



I don't remember being angry like this. I was very very depressed. I think this is what you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong, before the EA, I was depressed. More than likely it was all my anger turned inwards. After the EA, it was as if now I had somewhere to place my anger. I could get rid of it and make dh responsible for my anger. It's a lot easier that way, then I don't have to deal with it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



I think the biggest thing I'm afraid of is it happening again and again, and I'm never strong enough to leave



To them might be successful. Everyone has their own definition of success. I see it as vulnerable and unprotected. I hope I don't offend anyone with that.




Awww, my relationship with God, my faith. This is all new to me also. Something I am learning and growing with everyday. It is so new and scary.



I don't think I've pushed for this because somewhere I know a lot of this is my own insecurities. I have my dh's cell phone whenever I want it. We share e-mail, I have access to EVeRYTHING! This is more about me than his friendship with her.



That's just it when I see 304 times a month, no biggies. It was the 3 phone calls in this particular instance that occured within 24 hours and then he callled her one night right after he got off the phone with me. I think it triggered something huge in me. I told him how it made me feel, he said he would tell her to call the house from now on. He is trying to protect me and our marriage.


Yes on both counts. I do believe love is earned and I do carry everyone elses stuff. Even if they don't give it to me to carry, I carry it.

Thank you again LA for sticking with me.

I will try it. Doesn't hurt to try. Once I do that, so he knows I heard him, do I tell him I still don't understand?



Another Californian, knew I liked ya <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was raised near Monterey Bay. It sounds like you understand my plight with chicken. I've never bought anything but boneless skinless chicken breasts. We even bought chicken breasts this time with the bone in. I have no idea what to do with them. The only time I mess with a whole chicken is when I can tie it up and stick it in the rotiessirie lol. Now I digress lol



Right. I think this is a big thing here. He has said time and time again that I don't listen. Although, I could probably repeat everything he said back to him. I like your idea of repeating it back. At least then he knows I heard him.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do have a lot of beliefs to replace. At least now I'm getting somewhere. I hope you have a wonderful evening!

"This may sound selfish. I don't know if I choose to dedicate my life to my girls or if I believe it's what I'm supposed to do. I think if I could find a way to work and not believe that I'm wrong for enjoying my career I would do it. Does that make sense?"

No one can make you be there for your children or H. You are dedicated to them by choice. You are choosing. That was the point. Not what you might choose in the future. You may be choosing to do so because you don't want to be a person who abandons their commitments. Someone who made babies and then didn't take care of them. Still your choice. You choose what you do.

"So that noone, including myself, feels neglected." You can find this balance when you learn to accept your limits. Do not assume your kids or H will feel neglected if you do take a book and lay out in the sun all day. If you do it once a month, then if they feel neglected or not, it was your choice. People are responsible for their feelings, thoughts and beliefs. If you stop yourself from doing acts of service for you, showing caring and concern for yourself because of what kids/H/others might think, then your resentment is for yourself, your choices, right?

When you feel you are neglected by your own hand, do you resent? Do you believe someone else made you neglect you by eating up all your time and attention?

"Would you mind expanding on this a little further. I'm not sure I understand thte part of knowing all of my choices past or present. Is this meaning that I am perhaps not exploring all of my options, only what seems obvious? Kinda like there is either right or wrong?"

I meant that you can see your big choices...to marry, have children, be a SAHM...they are easier to see. The smaller ones are when you are running out of mayo, so you do everyone else's sandwiches with it and skip your own. Or when you find clean clothes in with the dirty ones, tossed carelessly in the hamper instead of being put away, and you choose to refold and stack them without saying anything, but hold the resentment. Maybe say stuff in your head like, "They think I'm a servant! They don't care!" These are still choices you are making. Tiny ones, maybe repeating ones, which teaches yourself that you are a servant and that they don't care. You create resentment in yourself...which builds and spills over into your perspective and AOs.

"Despite having this knowledge I still choose to hold resentment towards them for it." Why?

"For some reason, I always took the blame for everything, even when it wasn't mine. I always said sorry."

May I suggest that you felt powerless? Helpless? Taking all the blame feels temptingly powerful...if you are to blame, you can fix it. Be better, gooder next time. Doesn't work that way, but if you believe you are to blame, then that is the life you make. I'm attempting to show you that you were as powerful as anyone on earth, the whole time. You chose. You choose. You create your life with each choice.


"I always tried to be perfect to stop them from fighting." See where believing blame is power has undermined your life? If you are the cause, you can be the cure for others. You can have control. And yet you see it didn't work...that humans don't operate that way. They fought anyway. You weren't the cause, control or cure for their choices. Only you.

"I was his only reason for living." His reason, not yours. You didn't save him by existing...he chose. He chose well. You had no control...being good, bad or neutral, he still would have made that choice.

"It just added to my feeling of being responsible for everyones happiness." It added to your BELIEF you were responsible for everyone's feelings. Are you beginning to see how disrespectful that belief is? Your mother left and you became the caretaker...of everyone's well being. How reasonable is that for a 3-yr-old? 12-yr-old? 25-yr-old? 40-yr-old? 100-yr-old?

"if I know my Dad is hurt or upset, I get down, as if I am responsible for his happiness. Had I just done this or that better, maybe he would be ok." See how your beliefs give you your feelings? You're human! Because you believe you are responsible, you become sad, inadequate, not doing your job. Did you know that God isn't responsible for our feelings, thoughts or beliefs? Even he wouldn't do that to us. He weeps when we do, not from responsibility or power, but compassion, empathy and love. You can, too. It is commiserating you desire and false power you are choosing instead.

Here is what I call a killing DJ to yourself:

"She didn't want us anymore." She left. That in no way means she didn't want you both anymore. She wanted to be everything you want to be--a great mother, a super wife, a valued and beloved daughter, sister, friend...but she felt inadequate, defective, saw rejection everywhere, and turned to self-comfort instead of people. People were her betrayers, to her...and she felt the cause of others' people's feelings and unhappiness. See the similarities? She struggled with all this, including stacks and stacks of resentment, guilt, oceans of shame...and couldn't stop self-comforting...escaping...shortcutting.

She was human. She is you, me and everyone else on the planet, with choice. She didn't see it. Couldn't see her power, her being marvelously made, significant and with a purpose just by being herself.

You saw every broken promise, hope dashed, as a judgment of yourself. You felt betrayed, neglected, unimportant and not good enough. From what I wrote above, you already felt that before she broke her first promise to see you. You felt that just your being, your existence, caused her to run. You were a child. You didn't know you weren't that powerful. You didn't know people made choices.

You are the center of your universe...we all are. God made us that way. We can only see through our eyes, smell through our noses, feel through our hands, hear through our ears. Designed by God. The rest we are taught, told...you make me so mad! Put that down or you'll break it. We are taught we are too powerful for our small bodies...too needy, in the way, incapable and most of all...that we are to blame. God doesn't teach any of that. Humans do.

Then we take it to great lengths in our beliefs, adding proof by remembering each time we feel rejected--and your mother didn't reject you. She was too busy rejecting herself. You and your brothers were gifts too large for her to take, to deserve, to be loved by you anyway. And you love her still. That is in God's design.

"I was never important enough." DJ to self...because you judge, you judge yourself harshly. Please choose to replace this child's belief with your adult knowledge...you know you're important; you've tried to prove you are important to yourself over and over again...by choosing to be a wife and a mother. You crave to be needed...but as an adult, you're craving that because you continue to choose to believe you aren't needed. Every human on the planet is needed. God's design. Fact. Choose to change that belief, please. Stop disrespecting yourself and God. And your H and kids.

Now, pause and consider all you just learned in writing your post. You see your beliefs, their origins, a lot of them tacked on, drunk in, before you even went to kindergarten! Before I continue, really sit and look at them, list them...maybe put a "v" for valid adult belief and a "c" for child-like ones. Take deep breaths, hold your shoulders back and read aloud each adult belief. Smile to yourself. Pick the ones you know are valid now. The ones you like. The ones that are true. Not any that give you blame power or are manipulative.

Okay, unpause. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have current resentments from again, your own expectations, holding others to your standards, not their own. Flip them over and spank them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

This is how I do that...think about your mother not coming to your DD's bday...her loss. She doesn't have the experience of the day, the event, the memory of celebration, the closeness or trust of you or your daughter. Those are the consequences she bears. No resentment required. Each time she has chosen, and you wished she would choose differently, you took poison and waited for her to die. Stop taking that poison. Her loss. Natural consequences...loneliness, guilt, shame, rejection (she sees through those same eyes)...are hers. Not yours. She's not doing it to you. She's choosing her life. When she says "I'll be there" and isn't...changes her mind, your part of being respectful is to say, "I hear you are choosing not to be here for my family. I respect your choice."

And leave it lay. Her loss. Truly it is and I know you can't see it. Won't be cured in a day when you have all these years of resentments, believing you made her choose poorly and then expected her to choose well. Do you believe she changed so much, after making hurtful choices for years?

Are your expectations of her based on your need or the reality you've experienced with her?

"You believe that if you were good enough to keep him from his choices, he wouldn't have strayed? Is that correct?" You said this was correct. What do you believe now?

You are the daughter of serial cheaters. I am, too. My Dad only stopped about eight years ago. They are now in their 80's.

Can you bless him for being who he was and giving you the example of how not to be? You are faithful, right? I'm the opposite. I wasn't. If he could do it, I could do it. Inherited entitlement? Naw...just taught me how to resent and justify. I knew better, deep inside of me. I chose to be that person. You didn't. Important choice.

Congratulate yourself on that...it is important. You respected yourself enough not to do that. Know that.

Even though you have a pattern of creating and storing resentments (that permission to do that gives us the feelings of righteous power, that's usually the payoff, and it seems to combat our inferiority, defectiveness when we're right), you did not choose to cheat.

"Perhaps, he disapproves of my behavior at times, I do too." You and your H are two humans in a human marriage. You are not each other's parents or gods. Judging, which is what approval/disapproval is, doesn't work in a marriage any more than blame does.

Reconsider disapproval...could it be you believes he fears your behavior?

I knew you would get this!!! "he isn't responsible for my feelings or my happiness." Tell me the feeling you had when you wrote this...you said it was so wrong (probably a kick to your own butt) and then what? What did you feel?

Now, do the flip side of that belief (God's balance)...if he isn't responsible for your feelings, thoughts and beliefs, then you aren't __________________. Like fill in the blank homework.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

::applauding you--okay, in my head while I type:::

More applause on the anger turned inward. Anger is in us for a healthy reason. We can make it unhealthy...turning it inward, pushing it down, telling ourselves we are wrong to feel anger. Because we first felt fear (rejection, being told we are mistakes) and we choose to believe we can't handle that. We can and do. Only we pile it up when we blame others for our feelings.

And yes...throwing it at someone else...your mother, father, H or kids...to me, it is like a hot-potato image. Don't want to get left holding it when it goes off. Change your image to a train signal, complete with gate, sounds and lights. It is an alert...either someone is crossing your boundary (train coming through your yard) or not meeting your expectations. If it is the latter, it dissipates quickly once you find the expectation (and usually, it is unreasonable).

"I think the biggest thing I'm afraid of is it happening again and again, and I'm never strong enough to leave" You're shirking me here. Why are you afraid of it happening again and again and you not being strong enough to leave? Where does strength come into it? Takes strength to stay, make boundaries, change yourself, get clear on reality. Easy to leave, run, ditch it and not learn from it. Truly. You may be fighting yourself on this one, wrestling an angel for a blessing when it's a curse. Try reversing it.

"To them might be successful. Everyone has their own definition of success. I see it as vulnerable and unprotected. I hope I don't offend anyone with that." I wasn't offering up comparison in the face of your comparison, like a mother scolding a child. I was showing you that part of your dissatisfaction WAS from comparison. Let go the comparison, change all those beliefs above, and then feel what you feel. You are a human being, from birth until death, vulnerable and unprotected. Your flesh stays soft, your thoughts, feelings and beliefs remain yours in the face of hideous rejection, betrayal, and grinding pain. Nothing you can do can change our human condition. Your rightness with yourself is at issue, not your choice as SAHM.

Consider if this is another old belief...when your mom ran from you, she got her independence. You then became independent by taking on everyone else's stuff. To be needed enough not to be left. You envied her what you saw as her independence, when all that responsibility weighed you down, under even yourself. You vowed to never harm anybody ever, for all that rejection you felt and pain you endured, and still do. So consider that you may view working, independence as security, something safe, protected, when it isn't at all.

Remember the natural consequences I listed for your mom? Just think about it. Tell yourself you are reconsidering your wants, needs and desires. I think you'll find less resentment, fear and reactions after you do this.

"Awww, my relationship with God, my faith. This is all new to me also. Something I am learning and growing with everyday. It is so new and scary." Now that you have a relationship with God that you acknowledge (he always had one with you), is it scarier in life than when you didn't have one?

"I don't think I've pushed for this because somewhere I know a lot of this is my own insecurities. I have my dh's cell phone whenever I want it. We share e-mail, I have access to EVeRYTHING! This is more about me than his friendship with her."

Consider that it isn't pushing to say to FWH, "I've been owning a lot of things I dumped on you before. I had you carrying my happiness, pain, fears and anger, making you responsible for them. I'm not anymore. And in doing that, I now see what I do want from you to help me heal myself from your EA. I need you to have no contact. I am scared, vulnerable and confused because in me, by having contact at all, each time, I believe you are choosing her and not us, your family. I know I can't force you or make you. I respect this is your choice. I am very sorry for not respecting you in our marriage."

"He is trying to protect me and our marriage." He is taking some steps to honor you and your marriage. No contact is not unreasonable, selfish or a deal breaker to him. Ask and wait for his choice.

Last one!
You believe love is earned. How does that work with God and your children?

You are welcome and appreciated. I put in what you put in...like a pot of coins...and we both win.

LA

Good Evening LA! Hope you had a good day!



Thank you for pointint that out. You are right, noone can force me to stay here. I do choose to stay. I stay because I love them and I want to be here for them. I want them to have a mom around.



This is the hard one for me. I can and do do things for myself. In reality, I put the guilt on myself. My husband encourages me to get out by myself. It is my choice not to, not there's. Therefore, it's my choice to own. It's mine to deal with. They didn't hold a gun to my head and say no you can't go.



I do resent. I end up resenting my family. My daughters will get upset when I leave because they want me here, so I stay. Or my husband, sometimes, will do a pout kinda thing, so I stay. And, sometimes I do feel the like the three of them always want my time and attention. If it's not one of them, it's the other. Then, when I finally get some time to myself I usualy go overboard. Kinda like the person on a diet, who completely cuts out say their favorite ice cream. They go months and months without any at all, and the eat a half gallon in one sitting. That's me with time. I say I want just an hour, and if I get it, I get frustrated because I want more. Or my time is interrupted. My husband really does try to get me the time I need. I do choose not to always take it. Again, I try to make everyone else happy at my own expense. Which isn't my job.



OMG! You must be watching over my house. Lately, I find myself yelling "I AM NOT THE MAID" I have, for so long, picked up everything after the kids. They eat, they get up and leave their plates, or their wrappers from snack or whatever it is. Cups all over the house, dh is guilty of this one also. THere was a bag of french toast sticks that sat on the floor between the dinning room table couch and our bedroom for over a week. I jsut left them to see if anyone would ever pick them up. NOONE did. I finally did today. It dawned on me, they didn't because they expected me to. I have made the choice to do everything around here, then I resent them because I do it. Hmmm, mom needs to come up with a chore chart lol.



Yup, that's me. I want to fix everything. I need to change that. It's not my job to fix everyone else, just myself.



I find myself doing this to my girls all of the time. You are making me mad. You are .... I have to stop this. How do I teach them... Teach them to love themselves, how do I get them to grow up with positive beliefs about themselves. How do I change what I've already damanged?



THis is a hard one for me. I have, for as long as I can remember, had the belief that I have never been enough. Not good enough at anything I did. I wanted so badly to be enough. I did such stupid hurtful things to myself just to be loved.




No, I don't expet to her to all of a sudden make different choices. I always said I would allow her to have a relationship with my daughters as long as she didn't do to them what she did to me. I am so protective over them about stuff like that. I very rarely tell them someone is coming to visit like grandma or grandpa. I just let it happen. I just remember being so disappointed growing up I try to shield them from that disappointment. My family gets upset with me sometimes. THey say I"m too protective. I just remember the hurt so well.



I still don't know what to believe. I know they were his choices. I just wonder had I been there for him, would he have chosen to contact her?



My dad didn't remarry this time. He has been in a long term relationship, going on 8 years. They live together, he helps raise her teen age children as his own. I don't believe he has physically cheated on her. Although, I do believe he carries on an EA with my step-mom, his ex-wife. They talk probaby 4-5 times a week if not more. They flirt, his girlfriend doesn't know they talk as much as they do. If she did, she wouldn't be ok with it. I guess he just found a new way to cheat this time.



You know, I have never been angry at my Dad for what he did. For some reason, he has always been on a pedestal. I never had the belief that if he could do it I could do it. I can tell you what I walked away with though, If MY Dad could do it, then any other man, no matter how great they were could/would do it.




Yes, I believe fear is a better word. More of the word I am looking for.



It's almost a relief. If he isn't responsible for my feelings or happiness then that means I am responsible for me. I control me. I just need to keep remindng myself of that.



Responsible for his feelings, thoughts and beliefs. Wow, this is so hard though. I don't mean to dispute, just to understand. I know we are responsible for our own beliefs and feelings, but there are external factors that effect them. How do I deal with that? Where is the balance? HE can look at porn and I can tell him I am hurt when you look at porn. He can say well I'm not responsible for your feelings. Which is true. So, does that mean my feelings don't matter? Or is it that if you love someone and you do something that hurts them, normally you would want to stop that behavior?



I believe most of my anger comes from my expectations of everyone else.



I do believe it's much harder to stay married then it is to leave. Maybe strong enough isn't the right word. I am afraid of being hurt again, of the pain that goes with it. I am afraid of being vulnerable again. Afraid to love him and accept his love.



This is part of what I struggle with. My faith. There is so much I don't understand. I don't do well on the whole faith thing. I know that if I walk into a Church I start crying, when I read my Bible all I do is cry, when I pray, I cry. I don't know why. I've never been saved, I'm scared to have that much faith in something. People's faith absolutely amazes me. Is it because I didn't have relationship with God in the past, that all of this happened to me? Does that mean I deserved what I got? There is so much I just don't get.





I'm not sure if I said this or not, but the person he has been talking to, is not the person he had the EA with. I wouldn't mind contact with this current friend, if it wasn't done my cell phone all the time. If she would call the house, acknowledge us, then it would be different.



I know children are loved because they are just that children. They are God's children and they are precious and loved. I have to learn that even as an adult, I am loved. I am lovable and I deserve to be loved.

Thank you again la! I am off to watch Snoopy.

You are energetic today! First the great post and now, a response already. Whew...know you are dedicated. Credit yourself with this, 'k?

"Again, I try to make everyone else happy at my own expense. Which isn't my job."

Lemme help you in your belief that you choose to diet and then binge on time for yourself. What you just said, that common phrase we've heard probably from birth "make everyone else happy"...if you really can't do that (and you now know you can't)..then how is it at your expense, hmmm?

That's why owning your choices gives you clarity. It is abusive to disrespect others this way. Whoa. Last thing you wanna be, huh? Which is worse, being called selfish or disrespectful? Close race, huh? Well, each time you choose to not take 15 minutes for yourself, or be aware you're taking it, three or four times a day, then you are creating resentment that you admit, you hold against others...which destroys security, love and respect.

"My daughters will get upset when I leave because they want me here, so I stay. Or my husband, sometimes, will do a pout kinda thing, so I stay. And, sometimes I do feel the like the three of them always want my time and attention."

Teach then to ask, not express emotions. Use the words to say what they want from you. You do this by doing it for them. "Are you angry?" "No." "Are you sad? Frustrated?" "Frustrated!" "Okay. Why?" "Because you're going out to have fun and I have to do homework."

Hmmm..it could happen, huh? I mean, you're assuming they want you for the attention you give them, right? I'm ornery. I know.

"I hear you believe I'll be having fun without you. I will enjoy myself. The fun I have with you is better, though."

Speak your truth, but I trust you to get my drift (you're very good at not picking apart my hypotheticals and posting all the reasons why this isn't your life, btw. Know how much I appreciate that! I'm not pyschic...I'm guessing!)

90% of what children want aren't their needs met...they want to know they are allowed to feel, think and believe. No kidding. Remember what you didn't get? You got "stop that behavior" when it was a feeling. "Don't believe that!" when it was a wish. All sorts of crossed signals. Help them know what you know. Ownership, not blame.

I didn't stray, honest...just looks like I did. They own they have an unfulfilled desire...and by having it, knowing it is okay to feel envy, because they do, is 90% of the lesson. Dealing with what you can't have is as important as learning to deal with what you do have.

So they are upset and H pouts a little (shows his desire for your presence), and you stay. You CHOOSE to stay. Because you believe they need you right then. Remember how you created great need in your life because you needed greatly?

Rethink that. We build our own prisons and a careful demolition is in your future. Maybe I am psychic?

Glad my hypothesizing hit in your home for you, about the resentments. I knew you'd get it quickly...I don't think you like the payoff from your resentments very much anymore. You're already growing and feeling icky they are. As for the toast sticks...been there, tried that. And the chore chart. Lemme advise you from experience...Telling your family what you learn, how you create your resentments, what you see as respect, and how damaging this has been to you will go farther than the chart. Try the chart, definitely...but own what you did and what you learned and how you're changing. That will be a seed worth sowing for years.

Slowly, as you get better and better at making your choices consciously, you might grow to the point where you say that you will no longer pick up what they drop, put away what they got out. It's tough. You can do this. What you do is say, "I do the dishes that are in the sink and in the dishwasher. I change our sheets and do the laundry. I will pick up my stuff and make sure everything has a place that we all know where it goes. That's what I am committing to do. I choose this with love and ownership. I know you all are fully capable and want to afford you the opportunity to feel great about your own self care, like I do. I'm sorry I've been stealing it from you. I was disrespectful."

Then you do not pick up anything they leave, drop, or ignore. Like the toast stick bag. You have to commit to this because you announced your intention. AND you have to have people over. Ack!!! Yes, your DDs' friends, H's coworkers, etc.

Do I have to do CPR yet?

See how you have to build up to some boundaries?

LOL

Think of that with each one you make...do so carefully. I know you won't be making any resentments when you think of THAT alternative, will ya?

A repeat meant with no attack: "It's not my job to fix everyone else, just myself." There are no jobs in this world, but roles. They are different. Might help to change that image, for many reasons. You are you and only responsible for your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...actions, choices and attitudes. To attempt to fix people is disrespectful and abusive. People fix themselves. God made it that way. I thought stronger language would get you there...we quit jobs and get others...when we are in the role of worker, provider, earner. See the diff?

I just don't want you to quit this job and get one fixing people!

"I have to stop this. How do I teach them... Teach them to love themselves, how do I get them to grow up with positive beliefs about themselves. How do I change what I've already damanged?"

You begin with "I feel" and "I believe" statements. "I feel fearful when you choose not to come home on time." "Then I feel angry that you chose not to follow my rules." See how the fear comes first, then the anger?

So, you're right...you stop saying "You make me" and begin exampling ownership to yourself, your kids and your H. God made this easy...when you choose differently, you are different. Good ripples the same way bad does (and there isn't good/bad but I'm tired...heehee). Thank God he did that.

You don't undue damage...your H can't go back and undue his EA. It's done. Just as you recovery and rebuild a marriage, you do the same with your kids. I'm doing it now...and they are WAY older than yours. I only point that out because I did A LOT of damage...and they're thriving, anyway. Trust God. We chose then with what we knew then; now that we know better, we choose better. Maya Angelou, but more concise. Again, I'm tired.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, you still change for you. You're the primary. You are the main beneficiary, too. Everyone else has other influences they allow; you, well, you are you.

"THis is a hard one for me. I have, for as long as I can remember, had the belief that I have never been enough. Not good enough at anything I did. I wanted so badly to be enough. I did such stupid hurtful things to myself just to be loved."

Welcome to the Human Club, Miss...may I take your coat? We've been expecting you. :::pinning a ribbon on your collar:::

I haven't met anyone who hasn't believed as you have nor felt what you feel. Not because we're all the same, but because we pick up this belief...even the arrogant, the superiority complexes believe the same thing. Not enough. I posted a poem (and now I think it wasn't appropriate that I did that under another poster's poem) in Poems. Her title was "Never Enough." Check it out.

You will replace this belief. Takes time and the knowledge of what I already told you, straight from God to you, that he made you whole, complete, not defective in anyway...as you are, marvelously made. God doesn't make no junk.

Because you believe you have to earn love, that didn't leave your self any love for just being. Self doesn't do...self is. You left your self behind and believed it defective. And you should know, self is p!ssed. Embracing self goes a long way to take you back home. Knowing self is, and repeating to self, "whole, complete and wonderfully made" helps. Saying out loud to yourself every day, a few times a day, "I am" helps, too. You are. That's why I type that so much. I know you didn't know that.

I was there. I remember. My self is forgiving, yet fears I will do it again. I nod at self, understand the fear, know I won't. Self is happy.

Would you consider that this:
" I always said I would allow her to have a relationship with my daughters as long as she didn't do to them what she did to me." is a boundary you are actively violating? That's why you used the bday party as an example? She did to your DD what she did to you...didn't show up. 90% (I'm stuck on this number as my statistic)...is showing up. You're not crazy. Look at this and find out if you resent yourself for betraying yourself by not enforcing your promise. Your choice.

"THey say I"m too protective. I just remember the hurt so well." Anything to an extreme is harmful. If your DDs do not experience disappointment, how will they know they can handle it? If they experience hostility, rejection, denial...well, you get the picture. See, parenting isn't protecting and teaching...it is supporting children knowing their limits and capabilities...welcoming them into the Human Club, not protecting them from it.

"Between Parent and Child" is the definitive book on parenting, I believe. Really goes with what you're learning right now, too. Beautifully.

"I still don't know what to believe. I know they were his choices. I just wonder had I been there for him, would he have chosen to contact her?" You're beginning to own your choices and limits. You won't see that H has those same choices and limits until you fully get he CHOSE to betray you. You can't make him do anything. Especially not choose. That probably is the scariest thought you've had today. Sit with it. Don't fight against it or try to solve it. Sit with it.

"You know, I have never been angry at my Dad for what he did. For some reason, he has always been on a pedestal." I was the same way for a long, long time. He didn't leave me. My mother did. That was my only requirement...forgive all else but that. Transferred that to my H, too. He could do anything but leave me. Well, that's what I told myself. I get that. Know that once you know you weren't left, YOU weren't left, that changes. You might feel pain and anger. He taught you to distrust an entire gender. He exampled that. He can own stuff, too. He chooses to cause pain. He knowingly chooses to have A's...and yes, I agree with the EA. Try sharing how much your WH's EA hurt, devsastated and ripped you up. Those "I" statements. You can't raise your parents...but you are a walking example...they are free to learn.

Now, consider changing your belief to just be the gender of male. All humans can betray. We betray ourselves and others in different ways. Widen that belief and let it sit awhile. At first, you might feel a lot of fear jump up. Just sit, don't react to it. When it settles, remind yourself of this widened belief. The fear may jump back up, but not as high...in a week, remind yourself again; notice it barely lifts its head. Continue for the rest of your life. My prescription.

"It's almost a relief. If he isn't responsible for my feelings or happiness then that means I am responsible for me. I control me. I just need to keep remindng myself of that." Yes, yes, yes!! Relief from a burden you have carried everywhere, all your life. And it wasn't there. Couldn't be there. See your power? I'm doing a happy dance for your relief. And yes, you'll have to remind, remind, remind yourself to keep from picking it up again. And again.

Hey! Look at you, leaping to the next big bite before you've consumed what's on your plate right now..."How do I deal with that? Where is the balance? HE can look at porn and I can tell him I am hurt when you look at porn. He can say well I'm not responsible for your feelings. Which is true. So, does that mean my feelings don't matter? Or is it that if you love someone and you do something that hurts them, normally you would want to stop that behavior?"

You long for that mirage of control back already. You want to be safe, from pain. "I feel inadequate already, DH. When you look at porn, I feel more so. Then I believe you prefer them over me, a safe relationship. I am going to be safe for you. You choosing to view porn scares me, hurts me, and I don't want to trust you to connect with me afterwards."

My DH is a sex addict. He has't looked at porn seven months...his doing, not mine. All I did was share my thoughts and feelings, was O&H. Trust in what you can't see, BTE. God's been trying to reach you all your life. Can you believe he's been trying to reach your DH, too?

Porn hurts your DH, too. And your DDs. Be open to him choosing to change, not changing him.

"I am afraid of being hurt again, of the pain that goes with it. I am afraid of being vulnerable again. Afraid to love him and accept his love." Just as you reduce your fear when you widen or replace your beliefs, so will you reduce your pain. You will be hurt again...and it won't devastate or erase you. This isn't stronger, it is more aware of what you choose to believe and why, and what you don't. You are already vulnerable, BTE. That's why the ribbon is flesh-colored on your collar. You're human. Marvelously, vulnerably human. So God can reach you, touch you, interact with you. Your choice. His respect. So we can reach, touch and interact with each other.

Don't let your fear stop you from choosing to love and accept his love for you. You have longed believed you were inadequate, defective, not worthy of love you didn't earn. Know better now. Know your self was always adequate and loved. The more you grow to love yourself, the easier you will be with letting love in...all the way in. Still vulnerable, but more alive and clear on creating your life.

You'll thrive. You will. I know it.

"I know that if I walk into a Church I start crying, when I read my Bible all I do is cry, when I pray, I cry. I don't know why." I DO THIS! You're not crazy...you're not crying from pain, but shame! You know God made Self...and your tears are there for your long denial. This will change as you accept, love and acknowledge self! You didn't know you pushed Self aside to create a lovable self through earned behaviors...a graven image, you might say...you had no idea you were being god with what God had made. You're already forgiven! You are. This will change as you change your belief, I promise. God promises.

God's design. Getting aligned with it. That's all. Not defective, bad or wrong.

Oh, THANK YOU for explaining the EA to me and the current calls. Yes, house calls works. What a relief!!!

"I know children are loved because they are just that children. They are God's children and they are precious and loved. I have to learn that even as an adult, I am loved. I am lovable and I deserve to be loved."

All of us are children to God. Know how you feel when you get angry, hurt...you feel childish? We all have an inner child...many of them, actually, and we do not stop having them in us...they are us, only earlier. They need love, nurturing and acceptance. God loves us, loves our inner children...suffer the children to come unto me...all of us. We're human.

Thank you so very much for the opportunity to have typed out my belief for the first time. I'm learning, too. Sharing slowly...all beliefs, not facts, except God's part.

Okay, so it's all God's part.

With love and joy,

LA

BTE, do you want to have faith? Q&A articles->How to Overcome Love Busters->Conflicts of Faith(part 2) describes a great way to come to faith.

Good Morning LA! Sorry I didn't make it around yesterday. It's spring break here. I took my two daughters and one of their friends to the movies. My oldest daughter decided to stay the night there. My dh and I took our 3 year old roller skating for the very first time. It was a lot of fun. I'm just not as young as I used to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



It does help that everyone went to bed early that night lol.


I am not trying to dispute this. Just hopefully clarifying what I meant by at my expense. I choose/chose to try and make others happy (even though I can't). In order to make others happy, I often sacraficed my own happiness. Noone asked me to do this. I did it willingly, therefore, I believe I was doing it at my own expense.



LOL, A year or so ago, I probably would have picked them apart. Just for the sake of being able to say SEE, this won't work because.... I have grown enough to realize that it is just an example to help me understand more. Thanks for taking the time to do that.



I usually stay because I feel guilty. Maybe that guilt does come from feeling needed. I probably overcompensate as to never put my girls in the position I was in. But, I'm not my mom. Going out for a couple of hours is very different then checking out for life. Getting some me time, to recoop and pull together, is not wrong.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I have time to get to this point right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I don't really tell my girls much that she says she is going to do. It's easier that way. They aren't super close to her, not like my they are with my step-mom. Now that we live 3000 miles away from my bio-mom it is somewhat of a non-issue. I suppose I resent myself for not enforcing the boundary. I don't like to hurt people. I know to tell her she isn't welcome in the girls life would devastate her. At the same time, I'm not responsible for her choices or her feelings.



They do still get to experience disappointment. Too much, I'm afraid. Happened again this coming weeekend. My step-mom had said she was coming. I told the girls she would be here tonight so we could get the house together. Step-mom called last night and said she wouldn't be able to make it. I told my youngest. She is sad, but seems to understand that things happen sometimes, plans change sometimes. It just breaks my heart, and triggers so much for me.



Thanks, I will check it out.



This is the hardest one. I keep hearing him say it over and over, "you weren't there for me. You hurt me like I was never hurt before" I said mean things that night that he contacted her. I know he had a choice so did I. Sometimes we make bad choices, sometimes good. He was hurt, he could have chose to deal with the hurt in a better way. I think he knows that now.





My Dad knows how I feel about A's. My cousin recently had one, divorced her husband and is engaged to the OM. My Dad knows how painful it is. He too could probably learn quite abit from you. He too, chooses to put everyone first above his own happiness.



Thanks for sharing! I've told dh how it makes me feel. He has still chosen to turn to porn. This is what leads me to believe that my feelings don't matter. This is where it is hard for me.

It's just so hard to let go and not try to fix everyone. It's hard to just allow someone to have their feelings, especially if they are bad feelings and not try to make them better. I always have had a control problem. It's the hardest thing for me, not controlling. Not having complete control.

LA, I know this is short. Dh is off today and I have so much to get together. I will be back shortly though. Thanks again.

"I have to stop this. How do I teach them... Teach them to love themselves, how do I get them to grow up with positive beliefs about themselves. How do I change what I've already damanged?"

-I have been struggling for years with my belief that I am screwing up my kids. By nature if I am exceptional in one area, I am depriving them in another. I have recently concluded that all I can do is show them that I love them and accept them however they are, even when they are misbehaving and/or making misteaks. Also, to hopefully give them the skills to look within themselves to understand their feelings, and to grow from them. This way they can fix whatever damage I did to them ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"A repeat meant with no attack: "It's not my job to fix everyone else, just myself." There are no jobs in this world, but roles. They are different. Might help to change that image, for many reasons. You are you and only responsible for your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...actions, choices and attitudes. To attempt to fix people is disrespectful and abusive."

-Interesting. My brother said to me recently "We are all the stars of our own movie". OUR movie and we are THE STAR. I've been telling myself this lately and seeing how it fits in so many ways. We are only responsible for our ROLE and how we ACT. Others are guests in OUR movie. Just as we are guest in theirs. We are STARS. Yes, we are the star. We are just as good as anyone else, God made us all the same. But in our movie, we get to be the star. Lets treat us like the celebrity we are, 'k? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BTE...

"LOL, A year or so ago, I probably would have picked them apart. Just for the sake of being able to say SEE, this won't work because.... I have grown enough to realize that it is just an example to help me understand more. Thanks for taking the time to do that."

This is like a drink in the desert after another poster. Thank you! And I'm thank God for bringing you forward in your life...to this point.

"I usually stay because I feel guilty." Are you saying you do choose your actions based on your emotions?

"I don't really tell my girls much that she says she is going to do. It's easier that way." Easier is not the road where lessons lay. You are shortcutting important stuff. That's okay, because it your choice, in your time. Just be honest and know this isn't a reasonable or healthy approach. It helps to win against your mother.

"It just breaks my heart, and triggers so much for me." This is God's do-over for you. Not to make it so your DDs don't have what happened to you (because you turned out marvelous)...but in small doses, chances for you to show them how to handle what you couldn't when you were a child, and no one showed you. Not just for them, but for healing you.

Tell me, what did you say when your DDs looked sad?

""you weren't there for me. You hurt me like I was never hurt before" " Let's breakdown reality of your new beliefs and leftovers, stinking up the fridge. Can you make your WH hurt like he was never hurt before? Can you do that with AOs, DJs...in one night? Or is this a case of you owning his pain when it is his? His choice bringing on his pain?

This is about you...all this here...not him. I believe you when you say you believe he will choose better now. Your feeling responsible, in part, for his choice, is where you're getting a new belief, but putting it beside the old one instead of replacing it.

What is scary to you about only owning your own stuff?

OOoooohhh...you gave me an insight I didn't have before with this: "He too, chooses to put everyone first above his own happiness." What if your father modeled resentment behavior for you? What if you got the idea that whoever stays is owed love? Forgiveness? Tolerance? Just by staying?

"I've told dh how it makes me feel. He has still chosen to turn to porn. This is what leads me to believe that my feelings don't matter. This is where it is hard for me."

I am happy to share my life with you...all the crap turns gold that way.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now...did you notice that I said I stayed O&H? Not just once. I trusted DH to know what I told him I felt. As I felt more, or differently, I shared it. New words would come and show my thoughts, feelings and beliefs in a new way. Also, I became very safe to be shared with...worked hard on that to turn myself totally around and get safe..for others and myself. This combination is why DH changed.

That explains why those two beliefs are now residing side by side...you are looking for your H to change now, in reaction to your O&H. The more you change, the more he will. Not just words, but all you're learning. What you don't want is reaction for reaction...it doesn't end. That is essentially what you are trying to change in yourself, and believe me, it gets muddy if you're reasoning it out rather than believing it, relying on it, and concentrating on just doing it.

Take your time in your posts...I am afraid I've over-committed myself on the board and am getting that "I'm letting people down" old feeling. I'm on vacation and won't be back for a week (leave Monday)...necessary downtime. Might get MB gitters for all I know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take your time...until you see how destructive you are being a fixer, what pain you put in the world when you disrespect this way, then you won't be able to stop DJing...as for control (you linked them so fast!), well, read LLG's "Seeking Experience and Attention to Detail" and McCracken's threads...control is the essential beast behind it all. You are making big strides, very honestly...so consider your need to control comes from fear. You've found a lot of your fears...time to reduce them down to size...the size they really are.

Al-Anon is great for this...I recommend it to for control freaks. I'm not calling you a freak (yeah, I am)...I am one, too. Control issues are so common, I wonder why I do call myself an ex-control freak, hmmm? Control Commoner...see you just keep my mind aware to my own stuff.

In the meantime, remember that you don't have control, complete or otherwise, of anyone but yourself.

Thank you, BTE.

LA

Hi Loving! How was your weekend? SOrry I didn't get back sooner. It has been one busy weekend. My 7 year old daughter had a friend stay the night Friday night. This same friend had stayed the night here one time before. Well, Friday evening she started crying for her mom that she missed her etc. She said she didn't want to go home, just missed mom. At bed-time she started it again, so we called her mom so she could tell her good night. Her mom wasn't home. This little girl cried off and on for like 2.5 hours. She said she new her mom was home that she falls asleep on the couch. So, I drive her over there, nope not home. She asks if we can just sit and wait, Umm no, I have no idea where they are or when they will be back. We get back home and my three year old is crying and won't go to sleep. While I'm trying to go to bed dd7's friend comes in and says she just puked all over the floor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Her mom finally got home around 11 and came and got her. Dh and I got to bed about 2am and then my step mom ended up coming sat morning and just left a couple of hours ago. I now have a cold and just feel plain awful..



Yes, I do. I do this too much.



I have gotten better about this. I know that some lessons have to be learned. Some, I don't think my 3 year old is ready to learn.



Can I make him hurt? I'm not sure. I can't measure nor do I know all of the pain he has ever felt. I know I did same some cruel things that night. Like me, that night he acted from emotion. Not always a good place to act from.



Control. I feel like I loose control. In my mind I know I can't control. But, for some reason I still try. I try to control everything, trying to prevent pain.



I'm sure he does/did in some ways. I remember talking with him just the other day about some stuff. I am his youngest bio child and I will be 30 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> this Oct. His girlfriend has two children. They are currently 17 and 14. They do live with my Dad. My Dad is basically raising them all over again. Making the sacrifices he did for his bio-kids. He often complains about not being able to do what he wants like he had always planned. I hear him complaining about so much, I remember him doing it a lot, especially about relationships. Now, older, a tad bit wiser I keep thinking, why do you keep making the same choices then? I know a lot of it is he doesn't like to be alone. But, these same choices cause resentment. It's not the kids fault he made the choices.



How did you become safe? This is also hard for me. Perhaps, as my beliefs change, I won't take dh's stuff personally and be able to realize it's his stuff.



Can you explain the reaction for reaction and down a bit more for me? Do you mean that if I know but don't actually believe the correct beliefs it does no good?



Oooh Vacation! Please enjoy it. Going anywhere nice? I know that you are extremly busy. Please know, even when you don't respond to me directly, I read your other posts which usually, if not always, have something helpful for me also.



I "know" this. I'm just curious how do I get myself to actually believe it. To be safe in my beliefs.

My frustration level is still so hight. Take this afternoon for instance. Dh was laying on the bed reading the paper. I told him I had something I needed his help with before he took a nap. He said no problem, just call him when I was ready. Well, I called, and called, he was already asleep. It left me totally frustrated. I did what I had to do by myself. Probably wasn't as good as it could have been had he helped. He apologized, it just irritates me. He does these things so much. Tells me he will do something, doesn't do it, then when I ask about it he gets upset.

LA, please enjoy your vacation!

I'm baaaack! (Do you wish it was longer? I do!)

LOL

Sorry to read about your dd7's overnight guest from...another place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Oh, I remember those well...oddest, most difficult circumstance...and I had a creepy feeling inside me because I wasn't this kid's mother, couldn't be her, couldn't find her, and felt entirely inadequate, angry and helpless. Also told me how much I knew my own kids...and they weren't all the same. Also had one friend of my youngest who annoyed DH and me to death...we dreaded sleep overs with this kid in our house. Almost missed the crying one...

LOL

Hope you're feeling better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where were we? Oh yeah...I asked:
"I usually stay because I feel guilty." Are you saying you do choose your actions based on your emotions?
And you said:
Yes, I do. I do this too much.

Why do it at all?

Okay...that was where I was going when I wrote that post...however, after a whole week of non-stop DH time...found out when I'm fatigued, I still react. Know that I am advocating an imperfect system...and that it does work with sleep.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I figured out to live consciously...well, you gotta be awake.

I hear your mother lion when you say some lessons aren't for your 3-yr-old to learn yet. I respect your choice. I do. The formative years are up until 5 and handling disappointment (not necessarily in the form of grandma at large) is crucial. I was gearing it to be where you could show your own disappointment, sadness, and demonstrate how you handle it; modeling is a lot. Also, it teaches you how to handle it at the same time.

"Control. I feel like I loose control. In my mind I know I can't control. But, for some reason I still try. I try to control everything, trying to prevent pain."

You are not alone...have you been reading LLG's thread? Same stuff...a lot of it...what I am saying to you is that the control stuff has never been real...and the real power hasn't been even tapped in you yet. There's the beauty of this...letting go of false control enables you to truly have control...the leap feels like over a chasm...yet it is a half step to the left.

Humans live to avoid pain. Prevent, diminish, reduce or eliminate it. When we allow ourselves to consciously choose this as our life ambition, then we are choosing a fear-based life. We choose it when we know death is unavoidable...and painful...when others leave as well as imagining it for ourselves. We cannot avoid pain. As adults, we can half its size, let present pain be just present pain, when we work out all the past, cumulative stuff. Actual pain is much less than what we experience. Part of what feeds that control urge in us is the proportion of pain.

Seeing our choices, moment to moment, is real power. Our own. As a mother, very, very difficult to stop ourselves from attempting to prevent pain for our children. Yet, experiencing pain with them...listening and repeating, validating, without fixing, teaches them we respect their ability to handle their pain, which increases their ability to do so.

You know why controllers demand respect? Because they weren't taught it as children. Someone was trying to prevent, control, diminish or eliminate their pain. They weren't acknowledged for having it, for it being theirs, and supported through it with understanding and comprehension. We turn into fixers/pleasers, disrespect others because that's how we were taught to handle pain.

We're passing it on, too. With all the same reasoning, our definition of good mothering, and making it better for our kids than we had--we're passing it on.

"How did you become safe? This is also hard for me. Perhaps, as my beliefs change, I won't take dh's stuff personally and be able to realize it's his stuff."

See? You already have the answers...you haven't chosen to believe them yet. The more you realize you do not cause, cure or control your DH, the less his stuff is difficult to take. It is his. Not yours. We take it personally, because blame has that false power. And we falsely believe if we cause it, we can cure it...stop his stuff. Ergo, we soooo aren't safe to be shared it. Remember when your kids went through (and maybe 3-yr-old is now), "I DO myself!" stage? Well...your DH gets back there in himself, as we all do, in a little part, when you attempt to fix his emotions. He has them--you don't. He reacts to stuff in you from his earliest years---and you weren't even there! Heck, the way you mother your children, the way he father's them, all combine potently to reply what was as if it is now. What I'm advocating isn't easy...just simple.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(And I think it is God's work that you are having these conversations with your Dad now...hold to your new perspective of what is his, is his...listen and repeat, hear what may have seemed hidden from you before, and know where a lot of your habitual thinking comes from. My idea here is when things get really tough for you, you might have a deeply hidden belief that since you stay, you're owed. I did. Could be projection. Took a lot to get me to even acknowledge that one.)

"Can you explain the reaction for reaction and down a bit more for me? Do you mean that if I know but don't actually believe the correct beliefs it does no good?"

Does no good? Hey, now, there's baby and bath water around here. Okay, reactive marriages...you react to his reaction which was in reaction to you...no beginning or end, really. The ying-yang misconstrued. If only you said/did this, I would have done/said this...stuff. Think of a big circle and inside that one a smaller circle and inside that one a smaller circle. The inner circle is this reactive choices...which seems like an oxymoron until you realize you choose to react or act. Either way. Like one being the choice to not act...which means you react.

Anyway, this is our daily interaction circle. When we become choice-based, respectful, separate and equal, we moved into the slightly larger circle. Clarity of actions, knowing our truths and sharing them. We work at it. Non-reactive. You may be in the slightly larger circle and DH inside the inner one for awhile. Eventually, because the reactive process has ceased, you both move to the outer circle, which is reactive again, only with respect. Meaning you changed (moved circles) and then DH had no one to react to in the old way. New ways develop...because marriage is connecting; and choice-based living is consciously, respectfully intimate this way...you both end up on the large circle, which you were part of the whole time, but in new ways. You both are safe, honest, open, and interactive. You both are responsible for yourselves. One changes, the other must also.

As far as knowing a truth and living it...I'm still surprised how reactive I can be when I am fatigued...physically. I know my choices, but suddenly, they appear less a choice to me; rather a "oh, this will do, whatever" approach prevails. I can live reactively faster, easier and in the old way in heartbeat. So, knowing isn't enough...getting to a lot of very deeply held beliefs...and expectations...and truly replacing them then makes our tired reactions still respectful ones.

Practicing beliefs is essential. To practice we stay aware, watch for where we usually react vs. act. Choose to take personally; ask for rephrasing, clarifying, before we answer or consider another person's statement as an attack or even a compliment. The more we do it, the more it becomes our automatic response...unless you go on vacation for a solid week of togetherness...then all bets are off.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Knowing where you end and another person begins is really tough with young children...meaning, 18 and under. I think part of our control stuff comes from being linked, once through body, now through soul, to our kids. And if we mother our H's...well, we trip over the umbilical cord in many ways, don't we? Maybe you could begin your control investigation...write down all the ways you attempt to prevent pain, diminish or eliminate it for your children. Then look at the list and see if you're doing that to your H, also. I realized this week a funny thing...I love it when my DH is really happy...I mean, really, joyously happy...and guess what? I feel at a loss, to this day, when I'm not the cause of it. If it is something external, and he's thrilled, and I have no part in it, I have a twinge of resentment. Didn't know that. Still investigating, shoveling.

Oh, and speaking of shoveling...don't ask your DH how he is feeling, what he is thinking...part of being safe was no more digging or probing. I thought that was love--attentive concern. Heck, after hearing what DH thought about it...I know say, "Bend over and cough" if I want to know. We laugh. He ignores me.

Later, he'll tell me. The less I am the cause (in my own brain), the less I feel the urge to dig, which is to control.

And I found the more I focused on myself, the less I went nuts wondering about H's state of mind and heart. Didn't drive myself nuts with the focus on him, too. And the less I felt the need to get time to myself, also. I believe what our selves crave most is equal attention...not alone time at all. When our thoughts are always on the next thing, not the present, and us in the equation...how am I feeling?...then the more we feel sacrificial, guilty and abandoned...by ourselves.

Okay...to the incident last weekend...and the nap...

"I told him I had something I needed his help with before he took a nap. He said no problem, just call him when I was ready. Well, I called, and called, he was already asleep."

First, you had an opportunity for O&H before his nap. "Honey, I see you're settling in for a delicious afternoon nap. This something I have that I need your help on, well...I'm feeling a replay. I don't want to create a resentment in me, but I'm remembering a lot of broken promises, on little stuff right now. I fear you'll be asleep when I need you to do this thing--and I'm sorry, it is the only time I can do it with you--would you consider coming down now with me for ten minutes, and then we'll do this thing and then you can settle in for an undisturbed nap? I would feel considered and cared for if you would. I know it's your choice."

And if he doesn't choose to get up then and come down (I'm picking my house here), and says the same thing--call him when you need him--then consider your choice to not do the thing. Maybe it doesn't need to get done, or in the time you want it? You can smile and kiss him and say, "I don't choose to create resentments anymore. This was something important to me and I understand I have no control."

Stuff like that...seeing it as his choice to do or not do...share your fears...and the pattern you see without judgment; then your choice to do the thing or not to do it. If it was important...like the toast sticks on the floor...or like nailing back up the siding on the house that fell on the neighbor's dog? Try to not see the absolute, the justifications...try hard to see the choices. Or just lay down with your H for the nap. At this time of night, that's what I would have done.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Passive Aggressive...tell you what, this was big in my marriage. When I learned that's what my H was doing all these years, I launched into researching it. I advise you to, as well. However, end of the route...came to see a lot of p-a in myself, as well. Hmmmm. And my H's p-a? Virtually gone. Tiny relapses. The safer I got; the more separate and equal, letting go control, cause and cure...wow...there wasn't anything for his p-a to defend against. Your H has a lot of resentments. They are his. Some from his mother, first gf...maybe even his best friend growing up. Odd, I know. Still...all there, and some from you...the less you mother him, the less he'll p-a. Finding our own...oy, what an eye opener. We're the promise keepers, even when it costs us big time. We over compensate for the p-a's...yet, we do the same thing...justification. Keep an eye on it.

(Loved the vacation...will tell you about it next time...post too long...ugh!)

LA

Welcome back LA! You were missed. I hope you enjoyed your vacation.



Ummm, probably because I have never learned, or trained myself not too. Emotions seem to be so strong that I am very reactive.



Hhmmmm, lack of sleep may be a huge problem for me. I don't sleep well at all. An average night for me is going to bed around 1130 or 12, my dd3 usually (not always) crawls into bed with us about 3 or so, dh's alarm goes off at 415 to 430. I lay and toss and turn while he gets ready for work. I walk him out at 515 and turn the alarm back on, lay back down and my alarm goes off at 630 to get my dd7 up for school. I am EXHAUSTED all of the time. If I nap during the day I don't get to bed until close to 2am. Sleep, I think a lot of things in my life would be better if I could get some.

ok, dd3 really needs me right now, I will be back to finish.

BTE,

How about that...something I wouldn't have thought of asking came out and I think it is imperative to get a handle on sleeping, as it is to find your choices.

I like realizing now (even though I feel very silly for not doing so before), to live a conscious life, you have to be awake for it!

LOL

Okay, okay...Why going to bed so late? Kids are down, H is around having you time from 8 to 9:30pm...why not go to sleep around then? That could be a solid six hours before the interruptions begin around 3am...and getting up after walking H out and not resetting alarm might be more beneficial than you can imagine...making that 9:30pm bedtime something easier to slip under instead of fighting against.

I do understand insomnia...had it since I was a little girl...however...I kicked it, finally, a couple of years ago after working out. I don't have small children so I worked it into my afterwork time and fell asleep enough regularly by 9:30pm so that I could get up at my 5:30am time. Slept deeply enough to get the growth hormone cranking back up and finally knew what all the fuss was about...getting great sleep.

You don't know how great you can feel until you really sleep well...easily asleep within 10 minutes each night. No struggle. I would imagine you could do this if you took that morning time between H going off to work and you getting up to handle the dd7 to school...I prefer going to the gym (don't know how you could do that) because I choose the perspective of it being a spa, an indulgence...after working out, stretching in the hot tub, doing the wet sauna, cool off with a swim, then the dry sauna, and cooling off with a swim...really feels grand. Don't walk with a limp the next day, either.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you could do a modified version...then take a hot bath, stretching out, massaging your feet and letting yourself know that this early hour is for you...just you...before you move on to the rest of your morning?

Healing yourself is a big part of stopping the automatic permissions we give ourselves for AOs, DJs, and to create resentments. Sounds like a lovely way to start the day.

And if physical exercise isn't what you want...then do the stretching...I wasn't limber or flexible for most of my life, until beginning this routine at the gym, and taking some yoga classes (hey, they are DIFFICULT!), and then realizing slowly, I could bend, stretch, be gentle, reap the rewards of just stretching...which is paying attention to self and self sure likes that. Slows down the brain, helps you to control thoughts, focus increases and clarity with it.

Hope this helps...I think you've been doing too well on lack of sleep--your body is only handing you what it expects you want.

LA

Hi LA! I didn't meant to disappear on ya.



My oldest is asleep, but my youngest, well usually not. The girl doesn't sleep. Very rarely will I get asleep before 10. Believe me, I have tried EVERYTHING. Last night she was still up at 11. I know getting up earlier, would be beneficial in being able to go to bed earlier, but I despise mornings. I would rather be up all night and sleep in then have to be up early. It's something I am still struggling with, finding a balance that works for me and my family. I need sometime in the evening to myself.




Oh, I could not imagine doing this in the morning. Night yes, morning never. I have had many people suggest, gettin up early on my own to start my day. It sounds wonderful. I just haven't figured out how to motivate myself to get up lol.

I am working on changing some routines and so forth in my life. One of those, is honestly trying to get up at 6am so I have a half an hour before my dd7 gets up. The main problem is my sleep is so broken. If I could get 6-7 hours of straight sleep I would be ok.

BTE, are you looking for suggestions? FlyLady.net will explain how getting up a half-hour early helps you face the day. Have you read up on night-owl patterns? You often can't change this altogether, you'll still be best in the evening, not morning, but you can time-shift by an hour a week, like we all do with daylight savings. Unless you've already tried this, and it didn't work. But I suggest giving it a try, it does help many.

Does 1-2-3 magic talk about bedtime? There may be methods there that will help you. Your youngest is 3, right? IMO they can stay in the room by themselves with you asleep in another room, does that sound like a solution you'd be happy with? That is how I deal with my little night owl, she stays in her bed with the hallway light on and plays with dolls or colors, and as far as I know she doesn't get out, because she's always asleep in bed when I wake. I did have to monitor that like 3 days at first, to make sure she knew she wasn't to get out of bed. She has dolls she only plays with at bedtime, so that's a reinforcement she enjoys.

Anyway, there are solutions, feel free to ask for help brainstorming!

I'm always open to suggestions. I've tried everything to get up earlier. I have just about always gotten up at the last minute possible to get things done. Even knowing how much stress this causes, I just don't like getting up in the morning.



123 doesn't work with my dd3, we only use it on dd7. It mainly doesn't work because it does/can require physically removing the child and I can't do it because of my shoulder. There are many many nights(when I'm totally exhausted or its already 1am) that I leave dd3 up. She is pretty good about that, thank goodness. She won't stay in her bed, but she will lay on the couch and watch tv.

One of the major problems is I prefer my alone down time at night. With dh's schedule changing month to month, it's hard to get msyelf on a schedule. When he works nights and he is off he wants me to stay up later and spend time with him, when he is working days he wants me to go to bed earlier with him.

I'm sure you remember my sleep has been an issue for some time now. I think I have another thread from at least 6 months ago about it.

I hope Soolee stops by, she is so good at solving these logistical things (among others). I so understand enjoying that alone downtime at night, but doesn't it seem like it has very real consequences, like making it harder to remain as patient and calm as you need to be to get through these marriage issues? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you could find a way to be well rested, that may well give you the patience you need through all this.

When I was reading about the nap issue, I wondered why you didn't go wake him up? Maybe he fell asleep on accident but would have been happy to wake up to help so he could keep his promise.

Also, he apoligized. Doesn't seem to me that he got angry when you confronted him. Although he probably should have asked why you didn't just wake him up and give him a chance.

One more, now that all this sleep problems you are having are out. I wonder if you were resentful that he was napping because sleep eludes you so much? Maybe that is where the resentment came from and would explain why you didn't wake him up to help you, maybe that wasn't the real issue?

Just some thoughts..........