Hi LA, thank you for replying.

We've tried the notebook thing, well something similar, with retrouvaille.

I am no longer willing you are right. Truly, at this point, I just want to be able to raise the girls withough fighting around them. I don't want anything else. I am ok not having sex, affection etc.



Yes, you are right, I am choosing not to. I have not shared everything. I have held something back because I know he reads here.

He is tired of me telling him he is annoying me. I asked him, "please tell me a way I can ask you to leave me alone, where you will actually do so. The other day we talked and I told you that I am frustrated with you. Every time I turn around you are right there, asking questions, in my face, wanting my attention, that I needed time to myself." That didn't work, so I was rude and disrespectful, told him he is annoying me, he finally left me alone. Now he sits on the couch and sulks. No help around the house, wait, that's not completely true, he folded a load of towels for me.

I asked him why we couldn't agree to just be parents to the girls. He told me if I wasnt' happy I could leave. I didnt' say anything about leaving, I just said, i want to be able to just live here and raise the girls the best we can. He went on again about how nothing he does is ever good enough. I told him I never said that. He says its obvious because I'm not happy. I am fine when he isn't bothering me.

Have you ever read the book Controlling People by Patricia Evans? I am reading it now and one thing I learned is why my H can't seem to hear what I really said and misinterprets and still insists that I said what I know I didn't. Maybe you feel controlled in some way and that is why you have such a strong need for him to give you space.

Couldn't sulking be a passive way of punishing you for asking for space?

But I'm confused a little too because in a very recent post you said he is usually very good about giving you space. Are you looking at and making judgments from one incident again?

Just a thought, might shed some light on your sitch, plus knowledge is a good thing to have anyway even if it doesn't apply to your H.

Do you think it's fair to expect him to agree to live together and raise your children together because sex and affection are not important to you? If you really feel that way, and he really feels the opposite, neither of you can budge and its a deal breaker, shouldn't he be able to move on with his life and try to get his needs met elsewhere?

You know if you stay together in the house and don't meet his needs, your likely to get angry and frustrated because he in on-line or calling old flames or whatever. The anger and tension will not be healthy for the girls to grow up with.

And still yet, you have needs that aren't getting met too. What do you expect will happen to your livelyhood and drive with unmet needs over the long run? What kind of example would that be setting for your kids? Isn't your proposal here just the "easy way out"?

Wow, BTE...

You get what you want, don't you? He asks for intimacy, attention, friendship...and yeah, that's annoying as all get out...and you don't accept him saying, "No, we need to talk this out instead of shutting it out." You keep going at it, calling it annoying to you becuase you feel frustration, until you get abusive...then you DJ the man you abused by saying he was sulking.

This is what you are showing your children...that men are annoying when they want a partner in a marriage...when they want to work on loving, grow with and understand themselves and their mates.

Your daughters are being taught that men are just paychecks, disposable, replaceable...when you feel like it. Worth no respect...the cause of unhappiness. And they feel sorry for Daddy...they fear Mommy and will mix up loving and fearing, just like you do.

This is the legacy of bitterness, congealed into solid stone from resentment...entitlement and a huge lack of respect.

You don't want to be married because it's just too darn hard for you, BTE. Is that correct? Too much bother...just want a robot for acts of service...without the threat of intimacy, ownership, companionship or being a team player who fails.

Your H is telling you he feels like a failure in all ways. He feels responsible for your unhappiness, for your misery, because you are rejecting him to his very essence.

The way you were rejected by your mom.

How does that feel? To feel rejection so much, through your life, from your H's EA, from your parents, so much that you literally turn into rejection?

Does it feel fair and balanced? Does it feel righteous and deserved? Are you feeling good about crushing pain into other human beings...pain which is your own?

I did. Justified my affair through the perceived actions and real choices of my H. Justified me not looking inside at me...confusing boundaries with entitlement...and gave me a target to do what you did...make my H the cause of everything I was responsible for.

Why not try the notebook thing again? Then move up to communication exercises, as I've detailed and suggested?

Because it won't fix him? Because he is the one who is damaging the relationship? Because you just can't help anything because you'd rather live a stone's existence than a human one...even for your girls?

Wow.

I don't get this, BTE. You were open at the beginning to examining, owning, really getting where your real power was and your false power was...you said you wanted to get to why you repeat, repeat your life...I thought. I chose to believe you.

Your H doesn't give you permission to leave. He is asking you to work on his fear, his feelings of failure and his beliefs with him...because he doesn't believe he's responsible for only his own thoughts, feelings and beliefs. He doesn't believe he chooses to love...makes it a verb...an action belief...and how he can find freedom in true responsibility, instead of shouldering yours.

He's not there to solve your problems...he is there to know and be known by his wife...to be intimate, safe and vulnerable...and you are not safe...you are a stone that crushes and you don't feel it when you do...you feel great pain from being stepped over and ignored (not doing his share), and you step over and evade him.

He isn't telling you THE truth...he is telling you his own truth...he hurts, feels rejection and failure...and you can hear his truth, not make it your truth...you could choose to be safe and separate...equal...instead of a stone.

Humans choose.

If you can be content with your partner being fearful and hurting...then you're missing more than fun and love...and you already knew you didn't respect him as separate and equal...where in you is your compassion, your desire to connect, to listen and respect?

Is this payback? Is this crushing pain into him like he has done to you?

LA

There I said it I finally told him, I am not in love with him, I"m not attracted to him anymore (his weight gain has been a big issue that has been discussed with him before) I want him for once to stand up and take a stance on something. Don't just sit there and say yes dear whatever you want dear. We both got married right out of bad relationships, in fact, his wasn't over. We got married for the wrong reasons. But now we are married. Back then, I was in love with the idea of having a family, a husband who actually had a job and took care of his family.

yes it could be, fit right in with his past behavior. But I'm not exactly the safe person to talk to either.



Yes in the past he was good about it. That's what's so strange, is lately he is in my face all of the time. Might seem more so because he was off work for 7 days straight.



I don't expect him to agree. I want to know if it's something he can do or should I say willing to do. He is free to move on, says he doesnt' want to, wants to stay married be an every day part of the girls life.

BTE, I'm sorry it's been so difficult. I haven't written to you more lately because I feel in over my head. Like I don't really understand. I don't know why you are uncomfortable to share, I just wanted to give you some hugs.
(((BTE))).

I'm sorry, I must not have been clear. Not surprising now-a-days. His annoying, isn't talking about the marriage wanting to work on it. He doesn't try to talk about the marriage. The annoying is constantly asking me questions, wanting to know everything I do, why I am doing it etc.



he's not trying to do this. He just wants me to tell him exactly what I want so he can do it and everything can be wonderful. It wouldn't matter if it made him happy or not. As long as I say it's what I want then he will do it, that in itself is annoying.



I don't think I've looked at marriage as being hard. Maybe it is. yeah I guess it is. More work than it's worth. The payoff isn't big enough for the work required to maintain it. Would be nice for me to find a job, like the one I chose to give up to go live with my dh, where I could afford to hire a maid.



He is not responsible for my happiness or unhappiness. Part of the problem is he is always trying to "make" me happy.



Quite honestly, I'm sitting here crying my eyes out. I don't feel good about hurting others. Although, I'm not sure I hurt him. He just sits there shows no emotion and says whatever you want I'll do.



Probably, just like with retrouvaille, and part of the reason we didn't follow through with that is tha tI don't care how he feels. His feelings do me know good. There I said it. I'm just a cold hearted b*tch. What good comes from knowing how he feels. Oh we can be close right and where does that get us, nowhere.



I don't blame him for the failure of our marriage. I know it's me. My girls get lots of love and affection from me.




I do. Doesn't mean I want to stay married, or at least it doesn't mean I want to continue working on my marriage.



It's not about being content. I'm not responsible for the way he feels. If he doesn't like something, change it. I have never claimed to be compassionate or want to connect. This is something I have been struggling with all along. Me not wanting to be intimate not wanting to share with someone. I hear see no payoff for it.

Thank you EO.

Do you mean, why I am not comfortable sharing with my dh? I suppose because I dont' see a payoff in it. I'm not looking for intimacy and love and all of that so it's not like I need to share to get that. I'm sure it has to do with power. When people know how you feel they have the power to use your feelings against you.

"The annoying is constantly asking me questions, wanting to know everything I do, why I am doing it etc." I see this as asking for intimacy, attention and friendship...to be part of you in the right now...

You're taking that as invading your space, being demanding, intrusive...annoying. I was attempting to show you another side.


"He just wants me to tell him exactly what I want so he can do it and everything can be wonderful. It wouldn't matter if it made him happy or not. As long as I say it's what I want then he will do it, that in itself is annoying."

I'm so confused...if you say, "fold the towels" and he does, then "clean the toilets" and he doesn't, "fix the front porch" and he doesn't, "hang the blinds" and he doesn't...how is he asking to do anything you say to make you happy so he can feel less like a failure? I'm really confused.

"He is not responsible for my happiness or unhappiness. Part of the problem is he is always trying to "make" me happy." You say this, then you say...he has the power to annoy me...I believe you believe you do not make him responsible for your feelings...and yet you say he won't help out, won't lift a finger...you don't want SF or affection...no connection...no friendship...because of him. I'm really confused.

I know you don't intend to hurt...that you are consciously trying to crush pain into another human being...I am showing you that you are. So now it's his fault because he isn't showing his pain?

Have you felt that pain that rises and chokes off your words, your thoughts, your existence? Can look like inertia...when the only plea that come out is..."tell me how I can stop feeling this pain...whatever you want, I'll do." That's not sulking. Ask him. Be respectful..."I want more than anything for you to know you are not the cause, control or cure of me. And I'm not of you."

But you know what, BTE? You can't do that. Because the next words, "I choose to love you, accept all of you, and I know the more I see myself as whole, the more our marriage can grow and change. I just know it."

You can't say that, sweetie. You got your words blocked by a boulder of resentment, DJs and anger.

You knowing his feelings and that they are his...and what yours truly are and they are yours...is what being adult and having adult experiences are about. How does it profit? Not cold-hearted, BTE...so fearful you're only looking to get, get, get and not to connect. Getting is safe. Opening is too darn scary for you.

Like a child.

You can't own anything through fear. You can't profit from fear...unless it is the fear of others and it seems that you are doing so now...

You can live fully in the three realities...Freedom, Responsibility and Love...if you choose.

You aren't.

Why would you bring children into this world when you did not want to connect with another human being? You may shower them with love and affection and they can become pyschopaths, watching you fear intimacy...lash out to protect yourself from it and they can learn they are exceptions to all rules because you choose to connect with them...

or they can also learn that they are worthless, defective and emotionally bereft because they took your love from their father.

Lots of possibilities...none of them good. Marriages come first, then children...because marriage shows them how to trust, love, be trusted, self-aware and unafraid to be intimate...to be fully themselves and know their choices, their power and their limits.

Wow. Poor kids. BTE...you are living by your feelings...not choosing your beliefs or thoughts...acting from your feelings...and it is so destructive.

LA

oh ok, I see what you are saying now. Where is the line though, when don't want those things the intimacy, someone who wants attention etc..



If I say I need more help, he will help more, in the ways he sees fit for awhile, and then he will say he is doing everything I've asked.



His constant questioning,wanting to be around me annoys me. Me not wanting SF, affection etc isn't because of him. I just don't want it.



I dont' want to connect with him, men, in general. Have no problem connecting with my daughters.



They can also learn those things from other places than a mariage right? They are already taught that a marriage isn't a good thing. First thing my husband does when he hears someone is getting married is says "I'm sorry". IF he finds out someone hasn't gotten married and they are a bit older he will say "smart man/women" Not that I blame him, his parents marriage sucked, ours does also, not much to be thrilled about when it comes to marriage.

It's simple, I am not willing to allow him to be close to me. I don't want to share feelings and all that with him. So, the next thing to do is figure out if he can live in this type of marriage, if not, then I guess it's time for us to go our own ways. I am ok with that. Really am.

They can learn those other things from other places...at a distance. You know how much a child learns at home...how hard that is to over come...because it doesn't get to be selected; those beliefs come into the core of us, don't they?

Have you read about making your children your spouse? You open yourself, connect, look to them for your happiness, your fulfillment...they meet your ENs and grow up fast and hard...beyond their years...to take care of your emotions, your stuff...it is as difficult to overcome as neglect or physical abuse.

Tell me why you fear intimacy, don't want a thriving marriage, a fulfilling life in all ways...just one? Why aren't you willing to connect? Be partners? Work for what you truly want in life...know and be known?

Not enough payoff? Or not enough instant gratification?

Tell me...what if you divorce and remain angry all your life? What if your anger isn't coming from H? What if it is yours and you take it with you?

What if you get your blinds up, your house perfect, your children looking great...and there's no payoff?

What if you are safe from pain coming in...after your daughters grow up and leave...and you are still angry, coming from pain, that never left you?

What are you worth, BTE?

LA

I don't see the benefit in it. A fulfilling life can be had without marriage. I can work for and have what I want in life without being intimate can't I? I don't see why intimacy is something that has to be had.



I no longer blame my husband for my anger. I know it's mine. I am responsible for it. It will go with me wherever I go. At the same time, I know that I was never angry like this until I got married. I never hated myself or life so much until I was married. That doesn't mean I blame him, I just know that hatred never filled me like it does now.



These things have nothing to do with what's going on right now. My children are doing great. My 7 year old just had her end of the year Honor's Day. She was given awards for straigh A's all year long, straight A's in conduct all year long, the best handwriting in her class (not bad since she is a lefty lol), the friendliest kid, the highest average in her class in social studies. The blinds, well, I've been without them this long, I will be fine. Eventually, my shoulder will be better and I can do it myself.



I'm not saying the pain is going to end if my marriage does. HOnestly, my marriage ended a long time ago. We just stayed living in the same house, pretending that things were o.k. Pretending that we had it all together.



not much obviously. I hurt people that love me, I teach my kids all kinds of awful things about relationships and loving and intimacy. Im pretty much not good for anything.

BTE,

The last part of your post isn't saying what you are saying. Could you state it clearly so I don't have to interpret?

If your life does not include intimacy...because you don't see a payoff in, that's your choice. Is that your H's choice?

Because the marriage isn't ended...you are married. You are the one pretending not to be married, BTE. Your choice of fantasy. Fact remains, you are.

And you are asking your H to be a non-annoying roommate...someone who doesn't get in your way, who pays your way to raise your children and helps you around the house. Have I got that correct?

You have identified you are angry with yourself...not sharing your self with anyone means your self isn't worth sharing. That's a lot of internal pain. And not sharing self means hiding from God, right? Intimacy with God is out, too? No payoff?

You could choose counseling, studying...and you aren't. You began this thread to learn to heal and grow. What happened? When did it become a thread of making your H never enough? When did it become a thread about why intimacy isn't worth anything to you...doesn't profit you and how your anger feeds you better--making resentment your constant and true companion, replacing your H?...your pain makes you stronger...content without a mate...who is the father to your children, half of your children, already half of your life.

When did it stop being about how to trust, to be, to own your stuff and love yourself...and begin being about what annoys you, what you shouldn't tolerate...how frustrating having your H around...and reading your responses here?...interest enough to even do that...what a brave man.

When did you go from betrayed spouse to wayward spouse?

What changed, BTE? Got tired of not getting what you want in an instant? Got tired of feeling altogether...?

At the end of your post you are passive-aggressive...and that doesn't work on me anymore. It triggers me to years of crap...all the way back...growing up with two of them and marrying one. You are engineering your life to stay the way you have seen yourself all your life...and kick someone else's teeth in to do it.

I know your girls will be good girls...they will achieve...receive awards and stay safe as long as they can be good...I remember. I was like that. I had no idea how to be intimate...only how to be what others wanted me to be.

So I could be safe...and you know what? I wasn't. Couldn't be safe.

Sound familiar?

LA

What, that I am not worth anything? It's no secret that I feel that way.



I'm not sure I ever promised intimacy.



Actually, I had a job interview today and plan on checking on a couple other jobs. Like he told me last night I need to go back to work. Apparently I'm not as angry when I work. Like I explained, I see less of him when I work.



How is by choosing not to share become that I'm not worth sharing? As I am not safe for my dh, he is not safe for me. I choose not to share with him. I'm not sure I understand, because I choose not to share with my dh that means that I can't have a relationship God?



I'm not sure what happened. I think I realized that I don't want that kind of relationship with my husband. I don't trust him, don't want to ever expose myself to him.



Well, it started out as a vent about my dh and our situation. yes, he is reading my responses here and then throwing them in my face later. Upset because he says I don't share these things with him. I dont' want to share them with him, we talk we fight, that's the way it goes. He tells me why I shouldn't feel that way. I get mad. Probably works both ways though.



obviously, this is your opinion.



Tired of realizing that feelings just get in the way. Feelings get hurt.

Went to church tonight. Having a speaker all week, well through Wed. Mark Duplantis. He pulled me out tonight and Told me that God told him Joy would be coming my way. That everything I had going on would be gone and I would feel joy again, real joy.That true joy can be found through him. Also told me that he is a God of forgiveness and that he forgives all things.

just posted this earlier on another thread.



scary stuff

"An excuse is just a reason stuffed with a lie."

Thank you for that. Hit me a direct one, also.

You are a spiritual person, BTE...we all are...and you're on a path to all of yourself...thank you for choosing to attend church and hear the speaker...you did that...just like this thread...God can't help you unless you let him...and he did...he touched you, didn't he?

It is the most terrifying experience I have ever had to realize the depth of my own self deceit. My own self-manipulation. That invisible form of attack--like Radon.

You're not alone, BTE.

You can do this.

LA

Post deleted by better_than_ever

Thank you for sharing with us.

LA

BTE, have you ever read You Don't Have To Take It Anymore? It really isn't just about abusive relationships, its a lot about anger and low self esteem. It teaches how low self esteem can cause you to feel anger. Ya know, anger is really precedeeded by fear or pain, which of course you would feel more often or more intensly with low self worth.

Everyone struggles with low self worth, you are no different than anyone else on planet earth. The advantage you have over thousand of people is that you are here at MB, which shows you are a resourceful person and recongnize that your life is not how you hoped it would be. Great place to start don't you think? Many people are stuck unhappy and don't know why or what to do about it. They're left with guessing and "quick and temporary fixes". Take advantage of your advantage, 'k?

The second half of the book gives specific excercizes for increasing self worth. Just reading through the excersizes and not really doing them can really help you get in touch with your core value and learn to act from your inner core value, that is what increases your feelings of self worth. Then you have the drive and energy to take more steps to feel better. It becomes a cycle, this time spinning in a positive direction.

Try to keep imagining baby BTE in the nursery at the hospital, before any of life happened around her. She was equal and deserving of good things just as all the other babies. Anything after that are just things that happened around you, to you and despite of you. You are still that baby, only time has passed.

Maybe you've gotten to a point where you've identified and recongnized some of your part of this marriage (ie. low self worth, anger, no drive to improve) and now it is time to learn some steps to address that. Learning and discussing your "stuff" is important, but taking action to help you out of the funk in the next step. I think you'll really enjoy the book and will benefit greatly from it. I highly reccomend.

I have found great help out here, but this is still just one resource, even though it is a fabulous one! Take in as much info as you can, if only for you and the example you set to your girls.