Wow. Beautifully put LA.

unfortunatley, I do think I believe this in some way. At least I feel I have to be good enough to be loved.



I don't think the better they do the more I love them. I love them just because they are. Now, when I so see them being successful I do have less fear that I am screwing them up.




Unfortunately, it does feel wrong. I do feel like there has to be a reason for me to be loved. I really don't see people loving each other that way, that simply. There is always something tied to it. I know, because I believe something is tied to it, those are my beliefs, doesn't mean everyone has them.



I would love to feel this way. I do feel like my dh is lying to me when he tells me I"m lovable. I don't feel as if I am lovable or deserve to be loved.



I am scared of my reaction. That's why I don't ask right now. I'm still working on dealing with why it upset me so much. I'm over it now. Realized it's just my fear that he would find his ex-fiance on herea gain, or the porn etc. Like he told me, the history is all there for me to see, I can adda program to the computer if it makes me feel better, he has nothing to hide. I dealt with it. I didn't yell or scream, or anything else. I figured out why I was really upset about it, processed if it was a true belief, or just my imagination running wild.



This is one of the hardest things for me. Understanding and knowing that his EA is not a reflection of me, they are his choices. Yet, I feel had I reacted differently, he wouldn't have done it. So it is tied in together. I don't know how to separate it.

"unfortunatley, I do think I believe this in some way. At least I feel I have to be good enough to be loved."

Why, BTE? Where's your payoff in believing this?

"I love them just because they are." Please don't have this double standard...they are lovable because they are...they exist. They are yours. Own yourself...otherwise, you are screwing up...kids who see mothers who can't love themselves learn not to love themselves...and to earn it, instead. Teaching by example.

It's how we pass it on.

"I really don't see people loving each other that way, that simply." Oh, it is by no means easy...very difficult, takes practice and respect...lots of work...and humans can and do love this way. When you finally put down the judgment, the measurements, and know your H and children are gifts from God for a reason...and you are to them...then you'll open that cracked self and begin to heal. Until then, you're trapped...and you are doing damage to yourself and others, because what you do to you, you do to others.

Makes his EA extremely painful...a reason not to love...charting your days, good, bad, not so bad...same with your self and your daughters...everyone. Brain just knows one way...doesn't make exceptions to rules...humans trick themselves into believing they don't...while they are doing just that.

You want to control others. Know that. Believing if you had reacted differently then he wouldn't have chosen what he chose...is about control, not love. Not trust or reality. You chose, he chose, you choose, he chooses...you will choose, he will choose...that's human.

Choose not to react but to act. You're gonna get there. Until you get you're already whole and lovable, without a word spoken or an action taken...then you will measure, cause, control and cure others...live disrespectfully and destructively. Your choice. You're aware of another way, now.

With each time you think, feel and believe and don't share, you are betraying yourself, committing infidelity...because you are withholding you from the marriage. You are allowing your fear to withhold you. Communicating in respectful I statements, really owning that no one can make you feel anything because they are your feelings...cannot do damage. It is self-respect. Has to be practiced.

You can do this...you can choose to change your beliefs.

LA

I don't know. Maybe it allows me to put being loved in my control. IT gives me an explanation for what my mom did. Instead of just accepting what she did had nothing to do with me, which means I couldn't have controlled it, if I was loveable, I could have prevented it.



I think I want to control others, because then somehow, I can stop the bad things from happening. I blame myself for the sexual abuse I endured. As if at 7 or 8 years old, I asked for it and deserved it. I don't blame those people for it, I blame myself. I wanted to be loved so much...

BTE, this must be so frustrating, trying to control the situation by attempting to control others, when in reality you have o such power. You can perhaps delay something, but that's about it, you know? Much better to set boundaries around yourself, that if someone tries to do X to you, you'll be safe, because you have plan Y to get away from that.

Have you gotten counseling for the SA? It is so heartbreaking how predators seek out that child who needs love. Harder still to parent daughters after experiences like that, I know, because how do you trust your sense of who is okay, what is okay, what to do when something seems not okay, that sense that had failed you so miserably when you needed protection? How do you protect these sweet babies when your parents tried their best and failed? Almost makes you want to raise ornery kids who don't mind what grownups say, that that might provide some protection? And so painful when you see your kids talkiing willingly to strangers - can I protect them? And then your H, just like mine, sends these mixed signals to them that their no doesn't count - do they realize that they're breaking what little defense these kids have?

This stuff is so painful, feels so out of control, that we need to distract ourselves, and shift focus on what we can attempt to control. That's why I got marriead so young, because I felt safe when I was with my H. He was ornery, stubborn, and wasn't afraid to offend, and I needed someone like that looking out for me. That he was just a touch controlling, that would help me too, because I wasn't safe on my own, look where my decisions had gotten me. So if I could control this guy into really looking out for me, then I would be safe. Has it been like that at all for you as well?

But it's not real, only more illusion. Real strength and protection comes from within. I encourage you to read The Courage To Heal, an awesome book on recovery from child SA. There are other 12 step groups, including for survivors of SA, even online, that may be relevant for you. They are all about giving up these unhealthy behaviors and perspectives, and replacing them with what works for you. Let me tell you, when you walk into a room of one of those meetings, you don't have to say a word, you can just listen, listen to these people, like LA, who don't judge you. Who only care. Who won't save up what you say to use against you later. Who don't keep score. You can see that, experience that, and then fill your life and your family's life with people like that, safe to be around.

Great post, EO...

I was waiting to see BTE's response before posting again.

Then I had a memory.

During the 90's, I read a statistic that said one out of every five women had been sexually abused in their childhood. I thought I'd check that out with my own little life survey.

I began to ask, and over a long period, I got to 14 women before I met one who had not.

I stopped my little survey after having a group of women, not even friends, in one room...six of them...talking during a down time, when I found the one who hadn't been. I put away my sad survey then, because I saw how excluded and abashed she seemed when the other five shared their stories and connected with one another to a level she found fearful and disturbing.

Not scientific...and not my first survey in life, either...did one on prenatal vitamins and ear problems...

You are not alone.

LA

Problem is, I won't enforce boundaries. Have read all about it, understand it. I won't do it, not at the expense of hurting someone not at the expense of having to stand up to someone.



I have had some councilling for the SA. Honestly, I haven't had a hard time with my girls. Maybe because I blame me for the SA not the perpetrator. I feel that I am responsible for it. I am careful of course with my girls and where they are and who they are around, I am more aware, I am sure than my parents are. They still have no idea what ever happened.



I don't think it has been like that for me. I have always been the one to be very controlling. You know the person who was abused, gets out a relationship and then becomes the abuser to prevent it happening again.


I will take a look at that book, thanks.

BTE, help me out here, I'm not getting it. And I'm having trouble thinking of a good example for you.

I understand as a child with limited understanding blames themself. As a parent, how do you look back on yourself as a 7 or 8 year old and think that you could possibly be responsible for it? It was the adults' responsibility in your life to protect you. You had made this statement earlier, but I had mistakenly thought you meant something like you still feel shame about it, which counseling helps as well.

Ok, married to a police officer, I'd assumed you married him to feel safe as well, sorry. Do you mean that you're controlling to keep yourself safe? What safety does it provide? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm asking seriously.

Basically, I will allow people to walk all over me until I have had enough, then I will just end ties with that person. I don't know why, I just do. I don't like having people upset at me. Probably because I judge myself from how other people view me. If people are upset at me it's because I am not a good person.



I believe that I blame myself because if I was at fault, then I could have controlled what happened. If I didn't have control, then that means I couldn't have prevented it, powerless. I don't like that, the idea of being powerless is devastating to me.



Perhaps I did marry him to be safe. I don't think I did, it's possible though. My dad was a police officer, my Bachelors is in Criminal Justice, I always thought it was because we had a lot in common lol. I do control to keep myself safe. If I am always in control and something goes wrong I have noone to blame but myself. Hence, I blame myself for EVERYTHING! Dh's EA, my being sexually abused.

"Basically, I will allow people to walk all over me until I have had enough, then I will just end ties with that person. I don't know why, I just do."
Could that be where you set your boundary? You don't surround yourself with these people?

"I don't like having people upset at me. Probably because I judge myself from how other people view me. If people are upset at me it's because I am not a good person."
I think this is where LA was getting at, right? To examine your beleifs? Is there truth in this belief?

"I was at fault, then I could have controlled what happened." Or this one? What about a car wreck? Could you choose a different belief? Would you wish to?

"My dad was a police officer, my Bachelors is in Criminal Justice, I always thought it was because we had a lot in common lol." Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I shouldn't have assigned my own motive!

"Hence, I blame myself for EVERYTHING!"
Would you be willing try another way? Or do you prefer the path you're on, because it's familiar?

I have been and continue to try to eliminate negative people from my life.



I am still working on this one. It's a hard belief to change.



And for a car, a different belief works. To admit that I couldn't have controlled it means I am giving up power. That someone else had control and allowed these men to do these things to me.



i am working on changing it, easier said than done.

"I do feel like my dh is lying to me when he tells me I"m lovable. I don't feel as if I am lovable or deserve to be loved."

-OK, here is what has worked wonders for me. I imagine myself as a baby, in the hospital just out of womb. I'm in the nursery with other babies around me (those of which of course are grown up's now too and some in my life). Was that little baby that just came out loveable? Of course! Was that baby equal to the other babies in the nursery? Of course! Everything in life that happened after that day to each of those babies are just that, things that happened TO them or around them. They are still equal and loveable just as they were that day they were born. I go back to this image a lot, whenever I need it and it has worked wonders! Maybe this could help you too.

"This is one of the hardest things for me. Understanding and knowing that his EA is not a reflection of me, they are his choices. Yet, I feel had I reacted differently, he wouldn't have done it. So it is tied in together. I don't know how to separate it."

-Imagine he is also in that nursery as a new baby just as you are. Imagine he cries because he is hungry. Dirties his diaper cuz it's time. Does that have anything to do with baby BTE? No! Now imagine him at 3, he steals your toy in the sandbox cuz he hasn't learned that it is rude or hurtful or whatever, see how that in no way reflects 3 yr old BTE's right to that toy.

"Choose not to react but to act. You're gonna get there. Until you get you're already whole and lovable, without a word spoken or an action taken..."

-Again, separate babies with separate lives in that nursery. You are whole and loveable even then. Even when you couldn't talk, walk, feed yourself, earn your own way or anything.

"And then your H, just like mine, sends these mixed signals to them that their no doesn't count - do they realize that they're breaking what little defense these kids have?"

-OK this is where I posted on your thread before that I saw this as an opportunity to teach your children. Teach them that their "no" does count even when someone they care about doesn't respect it. Jump in and expain to them it's OK to be mad/sad/hurt that daddy didn't respect your "no". Give them some examples about what to do when someone doesn't respect their "no" - for example - "DD7, maybe you should go tell daddy how upset you were that he didn't respect your no" or "DD7, next time daddy doesn't respect your "no", why don't you try stating it firmer and walking away". I'm sure other's may have better suggestions for this than me, but I see this as an opportunity to teach your daughter (and your H if he is still around and listening) how to handle the situation.


Problem is, I won't enforce boundaries. Have read all about it, understand it. I won't do it, not at the expense of hurting someone not at the expense of having to stand up to someone.

-Again, babies in the nuersery. Does baby BTE have less rights to a happy life than the baby next to her? Does baby BTE have to sacrafice her feelings for the baby next to her? Did God make baby BTE less than the baby next to her? No!

Maybe because I blame me for the SA not the perpetrator. I feel that I am responsible for it.

-Ewe! I feel you really should work on this one. What if something happened to one of your daughters, would they be to blame? You don't feel it would be the perpetrators error but somehow your daughters? If you don't feel it would be your daughter's fault, then see your double standard? Use this example to keep showing yourself how it was not your fault. This is just something that happened to baby BTE, not who baby BTE is. Baby BTE is still the same worthy whole loveable person that she was in the nursery, regardless of what has happened to baby BTE after she left that nursery. Just as your daughters are still the same loveable worthy persons they are now, were when they were in the nursery, and will be 50 years from now.

"I understand as a child with limited understanding blames themself. As a parent, how do you look back on yourself as a 7 or 8 year old and think that you could possibly be responsible for it? It was the adults' responsibility in your life to protect you."

-By adult's responsibility do you mean the perpetrator? If so I agree, a responsibility they failed, and maybe have learned from and maybe haven't. But I hope you don't mean a parent. Yes a parent has the responsibility to do every thing reasonable to protect their children, but they can not ALWAYS be there. That isn't reasonable or realistic. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

We can only do our best to teach our children how to be responsible for themselves and do our best to watch out FOR them when it is reasonable and realistic. This is why I see such an opportunity when your H didn't respect her "no". Teach her it didn't mean he doesn't love her, but that she needs to learn to effectively speak her wishes and feelings, and what to do to take care of herself if her wishes and feelings are not respected.

"Basically, I will allow people to walk all over me until I have had enough, then I will just end ties with that person. I don't know why, I just do."
Could that be where you set your boundary? You don't surround yourself with these people?

OK, so maybe this is you enforcing your boundary, by cutting ties. Maybe the idea is good (get negative people out of your life), but the approach might need to be adjusted a tad. Maybe you could give people a fair chance to respect your boundry. In that I mean let them know it's there before kicking them out of your life). I chose to believe that most people do not intend to harm me. I know that if I don't tell them that I feel pain, they couldn't possibly know because they do not live in my head. Their interpretations of life and events are their own, in their own head, and relates to their own life experiences. They don't know what is going on in your head unless you tell them.

Then you decide you will tell them. Find a compassionate and understanding way to let them know how you feel. Then see what happens. I understand that we are all human and make misteaks, so I choose to give second and third and forth and .... chances. I GIVE TOO MANY CHANCES!!!! Maybe we can merge and both find a happy medium. Maybe three stikes and your out? How does that sound to you? How does that sound to baby BTE so innocent and whole and loveable in the nursery?

Hmmm doing some reading this evening. Came across something, sounds rather familiar..

"Many people lead unhappy lives and suffer from psychological disorders because they harboor irrational, unrealistic ideas such as these:
~ We need the love or approval of virtually every significant other person for everything we do.
~We should be thoroughly competent, adequate, and successful in all possible respects in order to consider ourselves worthwhile.
~It is horrible when things don't turn out the way we want them to.

Such irrrational beliefs trigger negative emotions, which in turn support the irrational beliefs, leading to a self-defeating cycle. Ellis calls it the ABC model, in which negative activating conditions (A) lead to the activation of an irrational belief system (B), which in turn leads to emotional consequences (C).

It's been a hard week. Dh has been on vacation, which means he wants to spend time with me, which means I am more irritable and feel like I am being tugged every which way. I can't do anything without him analyzing it. I got out of the shower the other day and took a deep breath, he was right there, what's wrong now, why did you breath like that? Because I felt like it! No ulterior motive, I just took a deep breath. He tries to give me space, it just isn't enough space. I don't think he wants anything that other normal people would want out of a marriage, it's just not what I want at this time. I don't want to be hugged and kissed. I don't want to be touched. I want to be left alone. I don't remember the last time we had sex, I am ok with that. I'm sure he isn't. I have no desire to be intimate with him. Am I leaving him open to an affair, probably. He needs a lot of attention to feel loved, he has told me this, I don't have it in me to give it to him.

Try to look at this as a phase. I think it is OK for you to want some space right now, you are up to your ears in "your stuff" and trying to sort it all out. I'm here too and I also have little ones that suck up what little space you have. H can take care of himself for a while, he's an adult, you can't ask your kids for space.

That doesn't mean you will feel this way forever and be in this frame of mind forever.

Maybe suggest to your H a time frame (like 1-2 months or so) to give you space. In the whole scheme of life that is a very short time, and if it helps you get through this in 2 months rather than 2 years, that's even better!

Let him know if you are interested and ready for affection at any moment you will take the initiative, and otherwise he should assume you still want space. Space doesn't have to mean that he or you move out, just to be understanding that you are focusing on you and the kids, you are uncomfortable with affection and are working through that, and that you need to be treated respectfully during this time.

Let him know exactly what you are doing (but didn't you once mention he reads your threads and already knows????) and that you hope in the end it can help you reconnect to yourself and thus him. It takes two whole people to make one in a marriage and you are trying to become whole and you need space to do it.

Giving a time frame might help him to understand that it is not your intent for this to be a permanent way of life and give him hope that things will work them selves out. Let him know that you need to work this one out on your own and you need some space to do it. He is probably tring to "be there for you" and help with his questions, so his intent is good. But you need to let him know if you don't want help with this. Let him know this is your issue, and when and if you have something to discuss regarding it you will surely come to him.

That also gives you a little leeway too in analysing your current state of mind and situation. You won't have to say to self, "well I went over this issue with LA a week ago and I understood it, but I still feel the same so this will never work!" You can put the "evaluation" off until the end of your designated time and focus on YOU for now.

Thanks Jwoman. He is usually good about giving me space. Still, it seems everything he does is just getting on my last nerve. I talked to him about it a bit yesterday. It just seems he is questioning everything I do. I am sitting on the computer, he can walk up anytime, and see what I am doing. He will still ask "what's that", where did you find that, what are you doing etc. His personal hygeine is still something we have been fighting over. He gets upset when I say something, but I can't stand to be around someone whose breath stinks. When he does brush his teeth, I give him extra long kisses etc, to show him how much I like it. Most of the time he says he has brushed his teeth, but from my end it doesn't appear so. It's just little stuff, but it's adding up. It's stuff like not throwing empty containers away but putting them back in the fridge, leaving clean uniforms on the kitchen table chairs so little hands find them. Just the little stuff ya know...

"Seems" is a signal word...

It signifies a lie.

Doesn't own anything.

It is a query for truth...unless it is about what only you can know.

LA

I say seems because it's my perception, maybe that's not the right word. I know we do have interaction that he does not annoy me. It wouldn't be fair to say Always, because I know that's not true.

I have noticed that we are drifting apart. Not the we had a fight and need time to cool off, just withdrawling. Very rarely are there hugs and kisses, coversation is there but minimal. I find myself considering divorce, not in an angry reactional way as I often do. Just as a rational decision that I am contemplating.

we talked again abit yesterday argued a bit today. Yesterday he says he feels like we are growing apart. I agreed. He doesn't feel as if he can do anything right. I don't believe that he can't do anything right, but those are his beliefs. I can't really put all my feelings out here anymore. He reads here, then instead of talking or asking questions about it, throws at me. We are missing something in our marriage, love, respect, fun, I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's a combination of everything. I am content, not happy, with the way things are. He doesn't like it. He wants to move forward, fix them, change the marriage dynamics, I don't. He wants more time from me, more hugs and kisses, affection. I want the solitude I have. He wants a friend. I just want someone to help out around the house, keep things in order, at least "picked up".

The communication breakdown needs one of you to begin the listen and repeat...take the respectful belief and make it real.

Doesn't seem like there is one of you willing to do that.

Would you guys be willing to try the notebook? You get a regular notebook and you write out your thoughts, feelings and beliefs and pass it to him. He writes his answer to you...you can write questions, respectfully and he answers...asks his own and you reply back.

A shared notebook...not email. You can agree to write in it just once a day to begin with...passing it back and forth...taking your time...

I would suggest writing about what you want as symbols...does the more time, hugs & affection symbolize acceptance to him? Love? Support? Connection? Admiration? Appreciation?

What does the helping out around the house symbolize to you?

What does friendship look like in his eyes? What does it symbolize?

What does distance feel like to you...what does it symbolize?

"I can't really put all my feelings out here anymore." You are choosing not to put your feelings out here anymore. There's a difference. It is important. He reads here...he has been reading here...and you chose to put your feelings here.

LA