Hi Jwoman!

I have read most of it. Didn't relate to it well.



See this is what I have issues with, just like the baby in the desert in the book. I'm not a baby, life did happen and this is where I am. I'm not big on the whole inner child thing. I've never been fond of the theory.Not sure why. Maybe something I can look at more.

I'm not talking inner child, I really don't have a very stong hadle on that stuff myself. I'm talking your physical being itself.

Visualize a hospital baby nursery. Imagine that God is looking at all the babies in the nursery that have just been born. Baby BTE and 30 others if you wish. They are at day one, haven't done any damage or good, haven't had any damage or good done to them yet either. None can walk, talk, or contribute anything to society. This is the point in time I reference to 'prove' to myself we are all individual and equal. God sees us at this point as all equally deserving of happiness and life and wants each one of us to learn to do what it takes to get that for ourselves someday. None of those babies is better or less than the other in God's eye in that nursery. All of those babies have the same right to freedom and happiness from life as the other. All of those babies have equal worth, some may have natural undeveloped strengths in one area where another has strenghts in a different area, but they are equally worthy in whole. So easy to see that on day one in the nursery for me.

Then I connect that we are still those same humans in the sense that only time and life have passed and our bodies have grown and aged. God still looks at you the same way as he did that day in the nursery because you are sill the same being. You are just as deserving of happiness and life today as you and all those babies were on day one. God is still just as hopeful that you will find your own self worth and happiness as he is in the others. Some have already found it, some like you are on your way, some haven't realized they don't have it yet, some found it and lost it and are looking for it again. And those babies too, represent in my mind, to be the adults that surround me in my everyday life.

I don't think the author was trying to get you to relate to the baby in the desert, but just to imagine how good you would feel saving the helpless innocent baby. That is what he is telling you is your core value and that is how he is trying to show you what self worth feels like. Proud, powerful, effective, helping, worthy......

I didn't relate to that part that much either actually, kindof skimmed over it. Mostly I got what he is saying that you make decisions in everyday life from your core value - which is what is important to you and about you. Each time you make a decision/take action you are proud of, one in which your decision reflects your own personal core value, you increase your sense of self worth. Then you do it again and again. Two steps forward, one step back sometimes, but when you are aware of HOW to increse your self worth and commit to doing it, the overall direction is positive.

jwoman! I am still thinking about your post. Trying to put thoughts together.

I'm tired today! very very tired. It's been a long week, it's almost over lol. Summer vacation is here for my dd7, which means not so early morning. Or at least not so early rushed mornings.

A conversation my dh and I had yesterday got me thinking. Looking for some input on it. I think I "know" the answer but just throwing it out there.

WE are driving home from softball practice. We went by a house and it had blue flowers in the yard. I made a comment that I didn't like those flowers. Dh responded, "I don't think they really care if you like them or not." It made me furious, he does this quite often, if I say something like I don't like that car, or that color etc. Just pointing likes and dislikes out. He said he is joking. This is one of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable talking to him. He is a big joker. I didn't expect him to agree with me that he didn't like the flowers. Maybe, how come you don't like them or I do/don't like them. I tried explaining to him how these type of conversations leave me not really wanting to talk to him at all. He asked why I couldn't take a joke. I can take ajoke, if it was every once in awhile, this seems to happen any time I state an opinion. I know those people can care less what I think about there flowers, I just noticed something and thought we could talk about it...

BTE, here's the article about Friends of Good Conversation. I still refer to this when I want to talk but can't think of anything.

thanks EO. I don't really have a hard time finding things to talk about. BUt you know when you are driving and you see something that jumps out at you and you make a comment about it. WHen I say something, when he makes the remarks he does, it makes me not want to talk to him at all. I don't feel safe talking to him.

"I don't think they really care if you like them or not." It made me furious"

First, find your fury for real. He expressed his thought...joke or not...and you felt anger. Find out why. What did you feel? Discounted, unimportant, dismissed, attacked, rejected...find what you perceived first.

"he does this quite often, if I say something like I don't like that car, or that color etc. Just pointing likes and dislikes out."

Second, know your feeling of fury was cumulative, not in direct relation to your stated opinion and his response. You felt all the other times before in that one moment...good to know (because you immediately went to saying it wasn't this one time) and to separate those past feelings from the one you had just this once.

"He said he is joking. This is one of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable talking to him. He is a big joker."

He said he was joking...and that has no bearing on your reaction. In recounting, it does. Another cumulative reaction...then you went to examining your expectations of his response (bravo!)

"I didn't expect him to agree with me that he didn't like the flowers. Maybe, how come you don't like them or I do/don't like them."

Okay...you say what your expectation wasn't...then you actually say what it was...for him to express an interest in your opinion. Does this help with what the fury was signalling to you?

"I tried explaining to him how these type of conversations leave me not really wanting to talk to him at all."

You didn't try...you explained. Know the difference. I believe you said "tried to explain" because this was your way of giving him a second chance to respond the way you wanted him to...another hidden expectation. There is a big difference between sharing how these types of conversations feel, what you think and believe about them...with the intent to inform, to share...and the intent to get something from your H.

"He asked why I couldn't take a joke."

This crossed your boundary...he defined you. "Ouch!" would have been the appropriate response...when you argued, even in yourself...

"I can take a joke"

Then you betrayed yourself.

Instead, you betrayed yourself twice...

"if it was every once in awhile, this seems to happen any time I state an opinion."

Because you said to self, it's okay to be defined, just not repeatedly. It is okay to feel this way, resentful, because he keeps doing it to me...can you see the self-betrayal?

"I know those people can care less what I think about there flowers,"

Now...here is the heart of your hurt...look at it carefully...you heard your H tell you a truth which you already knew...only I hazard to say, this isn't a truth...just his and yours...and taking this as a truth hurts, excludes, demotes and stomps on your opinion...wasn't about, as you say, a judgment...it was you sharing your likes, dislikes...YOUR truth.

"I just noticed something and thought we could talk about it..."

Don't let your power leak out and flow away from you, BTE. You noticed something...and you shared. Own that. No "thought we coulds" in there. You did. Your presumption that hurt was that you had the "we" in there...own you stated an opinion to your H...if your intent was pure...to share...then there's no "we" talking about it. Just you sharing.

Now, if your intent is to get a response you want...then can you see why your reaction to what occurred is to withdraw, not share at all? May appear your H is doing that to you...when your own desire, your expectation for him to share what you are sharing is doing it to you.

Fury.

Definitely.

At self. You have a pattern of correcting the fury in this way, by not sharing self. Self didn't do anything...your expectations did. Created resentment, anger, pain...and fear jumped up high and took control...arguing, missing out on enforcing your boundaries, honoring self...becaused his statement sounded like judgment...and there is judgment in joking...and you could not discern his intent, his information, if he was sharing or attacking...

Would be good to know...can't know it until you stop judging yourself and him...and yeah, maybe it does have to begin with judging flowers...like a signal...until you can tell the difference between discernment and judgment, sharing and manipulating, through intent.

LA

I thought it was rude, perhaps disrespectful.



Yes, I do know this was a cumulative thing. I had never really spoke on it before, so I'm sure my feelings were a lot stronger than had it just been once.

[quoteOkay...you say what your expectation wasn't...then you actually say what it was...for him to express an interest in your opinion. Does this help with what the fury was signalling to you?] [/quote]

I don't think I really was expecting anything. The though, "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it all" comes to mine. I could learn from that also though.



When I say try, I mean I'm not sure how well I did it. If I was succesful in explaining myself. I didn't want anything from him. I just wanted him to know why I don't feel safe talking to him.



I'm not a big fan of ouch. He would have asked for an explanation and it would have led to an entirely different argument.



I'm not sure I understand how this is betraying myself? I can take a joke, when it's funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />



Honestly, I don't see it. IF you have asked someone to stop doing something and they don't, how do you not feel resentful?



Is it really that difficult? Because honestly, if I have to do this much analyzing and thinking before I speak to him, I"d rather not talk to him.



It doesn't have to be a responce I want, no response would have been fine. However, if he chooses to respond, a respectful response would be nice. I don't understand your last sentence.



I don't share because I know I am angry and I will yell and scream, and usually the first thing that goes through my mind when these things happen is why am I staying married to this man, it is so time for a divorce.

Sorry, BTE...I spent time and focus on your incident...I thought it important.

I don't see that in your response. I see you doing what you do, without change. Without digging into yourself to find your own answers.

I can't do it for you. I can't work harder than you are willing to work.

You continue to DJ and not own what is yours.

You are your own oracle "I'm not a big fan of ouch. He would have asked for an explanation and it would have led to an entirely different argument."

You doom yourself to repeating. Good luck.

LA

I'm not sure I know what answers I'm looking for LA.



Please tell me what I did not own that was mine? I take responsibility for my anger and so forth. I'm lost <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



because I don't like the Ouch method, I'm dooming myself? I must really be missing something.



I need more than luck, but thanks!

I'm not sure if it's I don't know how to change, or I don't want to change, probably a little bit of both. I just don't get all this stuff. I read it, I see you and others speak about how wonderful it is. But it really doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand how it is going to change things. REmember, in the very beginning of this thread I mentioned that people get frustrated with me because I just don't get it. I question everything. Most people don't like that.

I don't see how looking at me as a baby in the nursery sweet innocent etc has anything to do with now. I'm not who I was then. It brings me no peace nor do I think because we were all born "equal" that makes everything ok now. I'm sorry that I just don't get it.

I said:

First, find your fury for real. He expressed his thought...joke or not...and you felt anger. Find out why. What did you feel? Discounted, unimportant, dismissed, attacked, rejected...find what you perceived first.

You answered:
I thought it was rude, perhaps disrespectful.

Why?

LA

I don't know why. I keep looking back at all the times I've heard him say it. There are times when we laughed about it, thought it was funny. Maybe I was just super sensitive this time.

If I HAD to pick why I felt it was rude and disrespectful, it would probably be that I felt he doesn't care about what I have to say. To me it was the same as saying shuddup I don't wanna hear what you have to say.

LA, well done on the "digestion/hopper" post at top of page. I was very impressed.

BTE-
"I don't know why. I keep looking back at all the times I've heard him say it. There are times when we laughed about it, thought it was funny. Maybe I was just super sensitive this time.
If I HAD to pick why I felt it was rude and disrespectful, it would probably be that I felt he doesn't care about what I have to say. To me it was the same as saying shuddup I don't wanna hear what you have to say."

-The path from what he actually said to what you heard and felt can be tricky and that is what LA is trying to get you to focus on. When he said "I don't think they really care what you think" is not the same as saying "I don't care what you think" nor is he saying "Shut up I don't want to hear what you have to say". You made that connection all by yourself in your head. His part ended at sharing his thoughts. My H would actually say those things that you interpreted, so I very much see the difference between what you interpreted and what was ACTUALLY said.

Could be that just as you were sharing your thoughts about the flowers, he was sharing his thoughts on whether or not he felt the homeowners cared of your opinion. He could be right that they wouldn't care, or he could be wrong. Maybe they would be horrified to hear that those flowers were not as beautiful to everyone else as they thought they were! He doesn't know them and he was clearly only stating his opinion. He shared his opinion with you, you received it as an insult to you. Maybe somewhere deep in him, he recieved an insult when you shared your feelings about the flowers, it is possible, believe me! Maybe he didn't feel insulted, but somehow unconsiously believed that you thought those people should dig up their flowers because you didn't like them, and that is why he chose to share what he shared. Doesn't matter why he shared what he did, that is within him.

But he did chose to share freely. Facing "wraths" for sharing could eventually lead to him not feeling safe to share freely with you just as you feel you aren't safe to share with him, works both ways. Understand why you don't feel safe, is it because he isn't safe or because you are interpreting that he isn't because you are misunderstanding his words. Could be that just because you felt pain after he spoke, you assume it is him causing it. What happens within your head making the connection from someone sharing their feelings and you feeling anger, is yours to own. You can't leave that behind by leaving him. I don't see that comment as something so absurd that you won't hear it again from someone else. If you felt pain from his comment, the pain is within you somewhere and it will come with you into your next relationship. You know part of it is from childhood, from your mother leaving, but you still have more work to do because the pain is still controlling your interpretations. LA can help you with that, that is her gift. Go back an read her 'decifering' post at the top of this page. There is a lesson for you in that conversation with your H regarding the flowers and LA can help you find it. Once you learn, you also have to keep aware. It takes awareness and work to overcome what is so deeply ingrained in us. You are not alone, we all have deeply ingrained beliefs/ways/patterns etc, most are from childhood where we have never even questioned them, never knew this was a different way to think/behave. But you are here posting and working, you are not in denial, you have an advantage to many and you can do this.

His comment was not necessarily an attack. You "took" it that way. You have expectations that he would have responded differently, there is no harm in an expectation as long as you know your expectations and don't get angry and punishing unknowingly and unfairly. He is not you, he has his own personal strenghts/weaknesses, life experiences, expectations, fears, and has his own way of responding, does not mean he is worse than you nor does it mean he is attacking you. He is just a grown version of another innocent worthy baby in that nursery, separate and equal to baby BTE. Time is the only thing that is different. (I'm still working the baby angle as you can see cuz that is the way I think).

We all do this "digestion" in our heads of our experiences, you are not alone. Misunderstanding and miscommunications happen everyday everywhere. Key is becoming aware of your ways of filtering, finding out why you do it that way, and asking for clarification if you need to. I recall LA saying that she has a hopper on her head, she learned to take the time to process the incident (words or actions of another) before responding. Maybe you could let your husband know when you feel tense or angry you are going to take a few minutes or even days before responding. Process it in your head or come out here for help before responding. My H demanded I answer immediately and badgered me when I took time to stop to think and process. I suspect your H will be more understanding and allow you the time you need to understand what is going on in your head and understand how you feel and decide how you want to act. When you act immediately without thinking and processing, it is reacting, not acting. We need to learn to act, not react.

The question to ask yourself here, is why did you chose to believe he doesn't care about what you say? He didn't say that, you are hearing that. Why did you choose the painful meaning rather than a pain free one like he was just sharing what he thought the people would think?

I tried to post a response earlier and for some reason it didn't go through <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



Isn't possible that he was actually beign a smart a** also? Just like when you ask him if he knows where something is and his response is"if it was up your a** doing flutterkicks you would know where it is." or if someone says they are pissed off he will say "you know the saying, better to pissed off then pissed on." It's not just this one saying..



I read this post for the first time this morning. Came back this afternoon to respond, that's the response that didn't go through. All I keep thinking is that if talking with my husband takes this much analyzing and effort for a simple conversation, I'd rather not talk to him. I'd rather not be married at all, then have to go through this long analysis even waiting days to speak to him about something. It really doesn't make sense to me. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, I just don't get it.





Because I messed up. We all know that. Because I don't get all of this. Why can I not make a comment to my husband about something without hearing a smarta** remark? Why do I have to be the one that has to do all of this analyzing and changing and I'm wrong and make me right, and he still gets to be the a**? If he were to come to me and say I don't like X about you. Can I say, well I don't really care what you think? No, because then I'm being selfish and insensitive. I'm supposed to listen and see if I can change me to make him happy. Maybe I just have this all messed up.

BTW, he got an e-mail from his ex-girlfriend today. SHe added her phone number in it. He showed it to me, didn't delete it, added her to his friends list. Hmmm, but I'm supposed to be happy because he showed me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm feeling for you girl, really I do. I have felt and still do feel the same way many times. But you ARE resonsible for your part, you always will be regardless of whether you are married or not. No you shouldn't have to be the only one working on the relationship, but sometimes we are in a sitch where we are. Sometimes we perceive we are the only one working because the other is not doing things that we expect or want them to do. We can't control them, they choose based on who they are and what they think is right. Doesn't make him bad or unloveable. It is your life to make the best of and your children to set examples for.


'K, that being said....

"Isn't possible that he was actually beign a smart a** also?" ABSOLUTELY! The point is for you to learn you ASSUMED his intent. When you learn that you have received a message that wasn't word for word what was said, you can be aware you ASSUMED and then ask for clarification without assuming or attacking...."Did you really think I thought they would care?" or as LA suggests, listen and repeat only for now "I hear you said that the homeowners wouldn't care what I thought". Then leave it at that for now.

Give yourself time to "digest" what was said and respond later if necessary. After you have had time to think about how you really felt and what/if anything you would like to say or clarify about it. This is only short term until you learn different ways. Not all have to be different, only the ones that aren't workin' for ya. Then new ways become "natural" and you don't have to consentrate and think so hard to respond or take long breaks before responding. Do you feel you have to respond immediately?

"Why can I not make a comment to my husband about something without hearing a smarta** remark?"

-Maybe it wasn't intended as smarta**. Really, it's possible. Maybe because your H has a natural tendancy to make smart a** remarks. Maybe he IS a smarta**! Probably did and was a long time before you met him and while you were dating too. You don't have to take the comments personally and get angry about them now. Learn to laugh WITH him as you probably once did.

Sorry to hear your having a bummer day, hope you'll be feeling more positive soon.

"BTW, he got an e-mail from his ex-girlfriend today. SHe added her phone number in it. He showed it to me, didn't delete it, added her to his friends list. Hmmm, but I'm supposed to be happy because he showed me"

I'm no expert on this kindof stuff, but I certainly wouldn't be happy or relieved just because he showed me. I would suggest working through your feelings on this, then deciding what you want to happen, then deciding the best way to attempt to get the results you want. IE. I felt fear because I am afraid he is going to cheat. I want him to cut off all contact with this person. I need to approach him at a calm time and tell him what limits or expectations I have regarding contact with this person. (I'm sure other's can help you out here better than me so I won't give much more advice on this one)

I am just tring to let you know that IMO you are justified to be concerned about this particular issue and are justified to take action. Just be sure to take your time, address the topic wisely without LBing himself or you.

Comparing this issue to the flower incident. I guess marriages are like raising children in that we need to learn to "Pick our battles". Why argue over the flower comment, when your effort is much better spent on topics like this. Is the flower incident a real "deal breaker" for you or is it just a symptom of deeper bigger concerns? If you complain or argue or "nag" too much, we tend to loose our power to work the real issues. kindof like the girl who cried wolf.

BTE, we all made choices. Sure, I'd love it if he were going to stop today, but you know and I know that's not what is going to happen today. What you can get from all this is how to not let someone control your life to this extent. You can be happy anyway. Your anger hurts you much more than anyone else, except maybe your kids. And is that how you want to live, in a cycle of punishing your H and him punishing you? Why not rise above that?

Awesome questions! It's this working it out that is going to bring you to solutions. Have you thought of anything last night? You can live in a house controlled by both of your worst impusles, or you can take control of your own and learn how to set boundaries to protect you from H's. See if you can change to make YOU happy. And if that leads to smoother relations with H, that's a bonus.

It is awesome to read you last week sharing about the messages you got at church. We are part of something so much bigger than us and our problems, I hope you continue to find inspiration there.

I encourage you to get the book, You Don't Have to Take It Anymore. It talks with a lot of insight about all these dynamics so you can see them better.

Yes, I do feel I need to respond immediately. If I don't, I hold it in and only get angrier.



In this instance, it was, he said so himself. No, I don't have to take the comments personally, you are right about that. I also can choose not to speak to him so I can avoid hearing them.

I told him exactly what I want. I want him to delete the e-mail. It still doesn't make me feel any better. I don't know that he hasn't already written down her phone number. It's just something I will have to dealwith. The e-mail is still there.



We aren't arguing over the flower comment. It has been done and over with between us, it only continues on here.

I have this book, I've read it. I honestly didn't find it helpful at all. I was considering selling it already.

See, this leads back to all this in touch with yourself touchy feely stuff I just don't get. I don't see it's benefits. I hear what yall are saying, I just don't get it.

I have been reading these posts for months. I have changed so much of me and everything was so terrific in my marriage....for awhile. Now it all seems to be falling apart, not going away..... but falling apart. I feel like I am giving and he is taking, too much. I tried to get him to read in this forum but he says "it's a crock". In my book marriage is important. I watched my mother go through 4 unsuccessful marriages because of EN's and marrying for the wrong reason.....now she is 63, single and hating life. I want the 50 or so year marriage....I think we can all do it. My husband watched his disillusioned mom go through 4 marriages as well, and the fact that he changes a bit for this marriage marks a huge stepping stone in my book. I just wish that we could work together as a well oiled machine and "get er done". We only have one life to live, so lets live it.