Dh came home from worth this morning. His call history erased. Something about his phone acting funny. Could be possible, could be another lie.

You guys still have those prepaid cells? No bill to look up online?

I'm thinking of you this morning...

Good job on not choosing to believe...stating you feel lied to...

About "really safe to share"...what does that look like to...what do you require to share your stuff?

"Trying to show him, I just feel like he is an endless pit."

Ouch...how would you like him to DJ you that way? "Nothing I do is enough for her...she's an endless pit to me. I'll always fail her, no matter how hard I try."

Can you recenter yourself to act from love, so YOU get filled up? So each of your actions (which were great) feed your heart, no resentment...no giving to get?

He has been down this road...he KNOWS what he's choosing to do...respect he does. If negating boredom is a higher priority than his marriage, that's his choice.

You have yours.

Tell me your predetermined, progressive marital boundary enforcements...so I can know your choices, too.

LA

I will be able to look it up when the new bill comes out. I can only see outgoing calls though, not incoming.



Knowing that it's not going to be held against me, or made fun of. Or told I'm full of sh*t like I was today. Same things I have to work on offering to him.



He does say those things. Today, he started going on about how he bends over backwards for me and it's never enough etc.



I've been trying, but then he asks for more and wants more. That's when I get irritated because then I either have to say no and he gets upset or I do things not because I want to but because I feel like I have to.



We talked about it tonight. It turned ugly. HE sees nothing wrong with what he is doing. She was his friend before we got married, they have been through a lot together. He thinks of her as a sister. I'm the only person he wants, etc. I explained how his EA with his ex-fiance started by just talking. It scares me. He got angry. He started yelling and cussing. I started to allow myself to be drawn into it. Realized it was an argument I didn't want to get into, especially with the girls around, took them to the park instead.



Right now there is nothing I can really do. As usual, I'm not in a place to support myself. I am working on it though.

BTE,

"Knowing that it's not going to be held against me, or made fun of. Or told I'm full of sh*t like I was today. Same things I have to work on offering to him."

I guess I'm confused...you're saying that in order to share your stuff, you need him to respond to your stuff in a respectful way? Doesn't that trap you into not sharing? I'm not saying this in a derisive way...I'm saying, if you don't go outside unless it's 60 degrees or warmer, then you've trapped yourself inside...when you could put on a coat, instead.

And I'm understanding is that you both have a lot of the same perspectives...each as a hole you can't fill, each unsafe and not getting your ENs met...each LBing when a certain threat level is reached...each wanting the other to do something different before you guys choose to do something different? Is that close?

And you are choosing to believe there is nothing you really can do...

I don't understand about not being in a place to support yourself.

You know I'm of the belief that you're always in a place to support yourself...when you're with yourself.

Would you consider what you believe about yourself? Are you a hole that can't be filled? Is that how you view yourself? I don't get that from your posts.

I do get that you choose, at times, not to be safe for yourself...and I wonder about that. We've talked about it. I know that in marriage, when we look at our partners as the answer to our needs, they are like our caretakers, our nurturers, and when they don't fill that role, we make them our enemies.

Been there, did that.

What I didn't know at the time (any of this) was when I make others my enemy, I make myself my enemy also.

Tough way to live.

You know that...you're experiencing a lot of sorrow (mourning), anger (would help if you would tell me exactly where that's coming from...fear or pain), frustration (usually indicates expectations not being met by someone else or ourselves), and triggers to these feelings from way back...which is normal in our human design, of trying to get someone else to patch us up.

When we don't have any holes.

Traps us inside...because we don't reach for our coats and put them on.

We don't free ourselves.

Which hurts mightily, too, on the inside. Like we're not good enough, worth the effort.

Downward spirals suck, don't they?

"I've been trying, but then he asks for more and wants more. That's when I get irritated because then I either have to say no and he gets upset or I do things not because I want to but because I feel like I have to."

Trying to act from love so you experience love...sounds like you're making it dependent on response...his response...if he wants more and more...then your acts aren't getting you what you want them to...

There are no real have to's in life at all...all our choices. No one has the power to make us do...we choose to do.

Is that your 60-degree weather barrier? What keeps you inside?

LA

Yes, I would like a respectful response. Even if it's not an agreeing response. No response at all, would even be fine. To be told I'm full of sh*t. I'd rather not share. I don't see it as trapping me into not sharing. I honestly see it as my choice not to share.



It is close. In every relationship I've heard him talk about, myself, his mom, and his ex-fiance. He has had the same problems according to him. HE gives everything to us and we all give nothing in return. I try doing something different, unfortunately, when nothing changes, I go back to doing what I was doing before.



FInancially, I am not able to support myself at this time. IF there was phsyical abuse going on, I would find a way, even if it meant gov't help. I don't believe the situation is bad enough right now, to put my girls in that position.



No, I don't believe so. He doesn't mean emotionally from me. He means domestic stuff. Can't clean the house right, do things for the girls right etc.



See, this is where it's tricky for me. I only do these things because he has stated they are what he likes. I don't enjoy doing them. If I could get away with it, most of hte time I wouldn't do any of it. If I do them, it is for a response, for him to be happy. If he isn't happy, there really is no point for me to do it.

BTE,

Thank you for clarifying that you choose not to share because of his response. Where if his response was different, you would choose to share.

Same for your acts of love...you make yourself do them based on what he wants...and for the response he gives you.

When he doesn't give you a positive response, you stop doing them.

I know you are choosing to live this way...was it the same for your parents, siblings, close friends? When you act for response, you are a slave to other people's stuff...you only get the loving feelings as a result of their loving feelings...which leaves your true self out in the cold.

Says that others are more important than you are...not equal...and your resentment has free rein in your life...a really tough way to live in my experience.

And this was my experience...earning love and punishment; which meant that I had to BE loved in a certain way, when I wanted it and how I wanted it to FEEL loved...giving to get, tit for tat.

Say you chose to leave him...your next relationship would be the same...and the next one...because your final boundary enforcement (leaving) would be around others, not yourself...and you take you with you.

And your girls will grow up to do this also...already may feel they give to get you to love them...if they aren't good, they aren't loved...and they will be scrambling to maintain their self-images over everything else...including their marvelous true selves.

Know your choices echo far beyond your grasp...boundaries can't be enforce when they are not held to by you...

I know. I lived that way...struggling, grasping and so darn angry to my core...

Fearful way to live...your life in the hands of others' opinions...when all the time, God designed you, and every other human, to act on their belief, their choice, to love...and fill up and overflow onto others...not giving to get, so when they didn't, they took the poison of resentment and slowly died inside.

Your soul, your spirit, is priceless...to know and be known...as you were formed, who you really are. Shining will be all but impossible when it depends on others allowing you to do so by their response.

And I know you can shine. I believe in you.

LA

I guess I have a jaded viewpoint. I believe the world does judge, people do earn love, that's what meeting needs is. If you don't meet their needs (earn) their love they find someone else to do it, they fall in love with someone else.

I love my children, yes. But I do have expectations of them, if they don't meet them, I don't love them less, but I am disappointed. It's part of life. If you don't do what's expected of you at work or school, you can fail, lose your job, etc.



If I choose to do nothing, which is what I prefer, I am just as wron gas choosing to do for a response, aren't I? I have an obligation to do, I am married, I had children.

No further progress on the S situation has been made. Dh sees nothing wrong with it. I can't convince him otherwise. I can only state how it makes me feel.

I really still feel like I did awhile back. There is not love there. I do love him. But there is no attraction, no desire, no mental stimulation around him. I don't like talking to him. One of his favorite things to do is watch the military channel and history channel. I am not a history person but I do watch them with him and have enjoysed some of the stuff. Only problem is when I ask questions, (I really am clueless about most history, military, and even political current events). He either makes fun of me or blows me off. I try and engage in conversation, learn from him, but he doesn't want to share with me. It's just easier for me to sit here on the computer.

Maybe this is normal. We are coming up on being married 6 years.

Hi BTE!

I just got caught up on your thread, and I wanted to let you know that I'm nodding my head as I read, identifying with so many things you have written!

Especially this: "I've been trying, but then he asks for more and wants more. That's when I get irritated because then I either have to say no and he gets upset or I do things not because I want to but because I feel like I have to."

And this: "See, this is where it's tricky for me. I only do these things because he has stated they are what he likes. "

I am so glad you and LA are having this conversation, because I'm struggling with this, too (did you read the part on my thread about making my H lunch? ARGH).

I totally GET what LA is saying, about acting FROM love, not acting to GET love. Makes sense. I can feel the difference, in those times when I do actually act from love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

However, I DO want to receive love from my H. I get that he could be loving me and my perceptions and beliefs could be preventing me from feeling it. HOWEVER (that's the same as saying "but", isn't it, LA? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) -- however, I DO want him to DO specific things, to meet my needs by having intimate conversation with me, by touching me affectionately, etc, and I know when he's not doing them, so I'm not DJing his intent here, I'm noticing that he's not doing these things that I want.

I'm having trouble reconciling this; there seems to be a conflict between my acting from love to meet his needs and my desire for him to meet my needs. When exactly do I get my needs met?!?

I guess the bridge between the two is that I have the power to 1. act from my love for him and 2. share with him how I want to be loved, and it's up to him to choose if (and how) he'll act from his love for me.

Am I close here???

Hugs to you all!
Happy

Right, I can act from love. But how long does one act from love before we say enough is enough, it's time to also have my needs met. After awhile, it feels as if I'm being taken advantage of.

An example even outside of my marriage is my job right now. I am a substitute teacher. However, I have been in the same classroom for 6 weeks now. I do all my own lesson plans and grades. If students need help I stay after school and help. When parents want to meet with me I stay and meet with them. I do this because I truly love what I do. Obviously, in teaching, if you love what you do, you do it for that reason only, because it's one of the most under appreciated jobs. Anyhow, I make less than half of what a regular teacher does. Yet, I do everything they do. Now I've been doing this for 6 weeks. Today, they wanted me to stay for a faculty meeting. I've had enough. I've given and given, and I'm not getting anything in return. I told them, I do for my students, I'm not stayin for this.

Same thing in my marriage. I can only do for so long before I feel taken advantage of and under appreciated. Especially lately, I've been making a huge effort to meet dh's needs how he wants them met. Yet, I feel as if he is still trying to meet my needs how he wants to meet them.

Ok, I think I'm babbling lol

Oh I HEAR you on this one!! LOL. That's where I'm struggling lately. I'm hoping LA will have a brilliant insight here that makes it all clear to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not LA, and I have no brilliant insight--but I can venture some thoughts that have been shared with me in the past (and proven to be helpful for me)...

I think the point is not to give until you are depleted. Isn't that whole point to having a healthy taker? You give when you feel enthusiastic, but once you start feeling ANY resentment, you step back and articulate your position. You negotiate.

If negotiations fail, then you do nothing more. And you're not dipping further into resentment.

For example, bte (*waving*) what would have happened if, at the first sign of resentment, you went in and talked to the person who hired you as the temp and talked with them about it? Talked with them about how much you're working and all that you're doing and telling him/her that you're beginning to feel uncomfortable with doing all the work that a full-time teacher would do, yet receiving only the substitute teacher pay.

Maybe it would change nothing, but wouldn't you feel better if you told someone how you were feeling? Then "not staying" wouldn't sound like it was done out of bitterness...but rather, it would be done (if done) because you were making an informed decision about the amount of time you were giving this job. And then they would also *know* why you weren't staying.

Maybe knowing you weren't happy with the pay situation might even change the amount of appreciation they gave you... not that you would do it for that reason, but people can't give you what you need/want if they don't know you're unhappy.

The same thing goes for your husband. The instant you start to feel a little bit of potential for resentment (or the hidden hope of what might result in your relationship from some kindness you are doing), then it is time to NOT do that thing, and instead let the taker out before it's angry so you can have good negotiations.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh, thank you, Telly...especially for not being me...'cuz then I wouldn't know who to be.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What Telly said.

HTBH...when the act itself does not give that resulting loved and loving feeling...don't do it. The most loving feelings I have felt were when I didn't feel like being affectionate...holding onto resentment...feeling disconnected and going into that downward spiral, reactively.

And I stopped. Didn't feel loving. I acted from my goal, my intent (all mine) and reached out to DH's shoulder, hand or face (his #2 EN is affection), and connected, anyway.

Immediately I get the connection back through the physical symbol...we're here, in this together, and I feel loved, appreciated, admired and accepted. Just like that. My feelings well up again...sooooooo coooooool...

Notice, he didn't say, "Oh, gosh, I love what you're doing...I love you do that, even when I'm angry, agitated or disconnected." Nothing. And I'm not thinking he's thinking those things to fill me with admiration, attention, acknowledgment...acceptance...appreciation...

I'm thinking of me, and feeling my resulting feelings, shocked at how disconnected I was...and now, in an instant, am not...

Because I love...and I knew, without a doubt or shred of self-deception...that reaching out, touching with affection when I didn't feel like...would not create resentment in me...

My act to reconnect...because my desire is to be connected in our marriage...not to get him to react in any way...and of course, since I've been making these non-resentful choices...he's been reacting filled up, too...ROFL...because when you commit to living up to your own stuff, abundance happens.

He thrilled himself getting me jewelry for our Anniversary/Valentine's Day...his eyes light up when I wear it, show it to others in front of him...he chuckles and smiles and nods. I know that was a pure act he took from love, not dependent on my reaction...'cuz mine was...

"Oh, Crap!!" really loud...

And he laughed and laughed...and so did I...'cuz I only got him something cheap and silly.

Didn't dent his delight, his filling up from his choice...

Oh, how I love that man...and I feel very deeply loved...without dependency, requirements...to my essence...I swear.

So that's what I focus on loving and acting from my love...on his essence.

When do my ENs get met? All the time...from my own acts and choosing to perceive his acts of love as they really are...and like HTBH, asking for when I need a little more...like conversation, affection, appreciation...I inform, "I'm feeling low in the appreciation department. I'm thinking about work, my boss and coworkers, and I feel appreciated very much. Now I'm thinking about our sons...oh, yeah...feeling neglected there. I think I'd like to call and leave MS a loving voicemail..." and sure enough, by DH listening, acknowledging, staying present...I get my conversation, appreciation and affection dose...and I'm good to go again...after I leave that voicemail for MS saying I LOVE YOU...I MISS YOU...not because he'll then show up at my door and hug me for five minutes ('cuz when he shows, he does)...I do it because I live in truth and share it...and sometimes, my signal of feeling something is me not sharing it...so when I do, I fill up again.

And then abundance is back in business!! Even with my sons, I swear.

It's what motivates me...and team LA are a team...(and IRL, goes by our last name, not my screenname)...when I treat my DH as a teammate, then I feel like we're on the same team.

And I let go of the outcome...and choose my results.

This took nearly two years of MC/IC and a ton of books to get to, BTE...posting here, reminding myself of my own goal, holding myself to my own standards (not others' expectations)--not an overnight pill. Practice, comment, and mostly, recognizing that what I crave most from others is exactly what I'm least giving.

I swear, it works.

The more I act from love, the more I feel loved...opens those fear gates and breathes...lets love out and in...'cuz it's there, all the time...if that's what you choose to believe.

((((((BTE)))))))) (((((HTBH)))))) ((((TELLY MY HERO)))))

LA

Hi, Telly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post -- this part especially seems to apply to me lately:

It's not so much that I'm not enthusiastic about what I'm doing (I'm really enjoying doing most, if not all, of it), although I AM sometimes nursing that hidden hope that something *I* want might result from my actions. THANK YOU for spelling that out so clearly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll be watching for that in the future.

Hi, LA!

I understand what you're saying, about reaching out when you're feeling disconnected, and how that brings back the feeling of connection. I really do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm doing this more and more now. I think I just need more practice, reaching out when I'm feeling unloved rather than stewing in a pity party.

Thank you for sharing your story about the Valentine's Day/Anniversary jewelry! How cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a story to tell you all (about those lunches again! LOL seems like my life revolves around sandwiches lately!) -- I'll pull my thread back up and post it there.

Thanks to you all for your support and encouragement!

HUGS!
Happy

My kids are back from being gone for the weekend. I feel my energy, my desire, my happiness draining away. It's an awful way to fill. I just don't enjoy them anymore. The fighting between the two of them, the fighting between dh and dd8, I just don't want to be around any of it. Even when everyone is happy, there is constant noise, irritation, frustration.

Being a Mom is hard. For some of us more than others.

You have no space--physical, emotional, or otherwise.

It's just plain hard. You're not alone. I know lots of Moms who feel the same way--even me sometimes, and I only have ONE! (Lol!)

Yet another book suggestion: Siblings with Rivalry (Faber and... Mazlisch?)

Also, I hate to say it, but the children probably feel the tension in the house between you and H... They probably hurt inside, too. And unfortunately, it's easier for them to bite at each other than to let it out at you guys. Safer.

Find (and make) moments for yourself. A bubble bath with a headset and a locked door. Bask in the little moments you make for yourself.

(((bte))))

(((BTE))) I left teaching because it left me with nothing in the evenings for my daughter. I had only one back then. It took me a long time to forgive myself for that.

I have another friend who is an amazing teacher, she truly has a gift for it. Her husband always tells her he feels neglected because of how much she gives to her students.

Sweetie, are you being kind to yourself? Acknowledging that what you do every day is truly superhuman? Of course you're feeling drained.

BTE, I hope you find a solution for what's going on between H and DD8. Because I have a workaround, but no solution yet. I have progressive boundary enforcements around D10. Which means, the first and second time he DJs her, I say, "Ouch! It hurts me when someone say something like that to me. Sweetie, what do you think?" And D10 responds or not. Third time, we go for a walk, and after that, we take D5 and go out. On the weekends, we may go for a walk Saturday and Sunday. A very disruptive way to live. And sometimes, it escalates, and H says she can't go, so I leave it alone, and I'm not sure what message that sets for her.

Oh! I missed that it was your HUSBAND and daughter arguing...

Is it possible that he feels you prefer your daugher to him?

I've been reading this book called Emotional Incest (When a parent's love rules your life), and it helped me see that part of the reason my father and I got along so terribly was because my Mother preferred my company to his, and he was jealous.

They should have done more together, in my opinion--because he took out his hurt on me... which was WRONG, but still... it made some sense.

It's one of the reasons that I am personally making so much of an effort to spend time with my husband (we have a babysitter now who comes every two weeks or so). I'm also making a huge effort to shut up when my husband and daughter are having a conversation, so that what happens is between THEM.

It's hard, but it's been worth it, because I'm noticing as I back out more--he does more and seems happier with her. Last night, she gave him about a dozen kisses--and that's VASTLY different than where she was 6 months ago. She used to seem sort of frightened of him.

I know some of it is because I was (inadvertently, unintentionally, and despite my very best efforst) getting in the way.

BTE,

Which do you think is better time spent...judging yourself for feeling what you do, or finding out what you're feeling and where it's coming from?

Telly has a great point...we make our children our spouses, take on their needs like we do our spouse...so it's like having three H's in your family...can feel annihilating, erasing self in that crowd...our choice.

I remember feeling vast guilt and slicing myself for feeling the way you do BTE. Oh, that helped.

NOT!

When we make our physical, emotional, spiritual space...which can include being present, listening and repeating...we example to our children how to make and own their own...showing them they are separate and equal...choose their standards and boundaries...same stuff you learn...they learn.

They will learn to feel erased by absorption when they marry...consumed in identity, even...and tired, drained...demanded of...all giving, no living...if that's what you continue to example.

Free all of you...you can do this, BTE. You're not nuts or wrong...you are NOT DEFECTIVE. You are choosing not to work on your stuff. I respect your choice. My heart hurts for you, your marriage and your family...because you are too scared of looking inside...as if you'll find a monster.

LA

I don't believe so, because honestly I'd rather be alone than with any of them. I absolutely can't stand the constant talking and playing around that the kids do, so he knows I don't prefer them over him.



Hmmm, now my husband does believe that the girls and I are against him. And in some ways we are. I still do not agree with the way he talks to them (the way I do sometimes either). He is still yelling all of the time and when they do play together it's LOUD it's all aggravating. There is really no peace and quiet here unless they are sleeping.