You're absolutely right! It's that old HINDSIGHT thingy. YUCK!

I recommend that you read the book LOVE AND RESPECT. It has been so eye-opening to me and it speaks to what Low is talking about in regards to men's needs. It also equally talks about women's needs....

Here's the link: Love and Respect

Some of the reviews say it's slanted against women. What do you think?

I just saw this RT...if this is the advice these sites are doling out it is HORRIBLY WRONG.

I cannot agree with it.

What did you do to SUPPORT your H through this MLC?

Ok...so when are we going shopping? A new Lumina would be nice...

Here it is:


The person going through the MLC IS the real person.
Treating them like a stranger or like they are going through some "phase" is disrespectful of what they are experiencing and invalidates their pain and confusion.

My wife followed your prescription almost to the T...and you know what? I felt abandoned and invalidated. Her "detachment" made me feel like all she cared about was how this was going to upset her status quo. I felt like she didn't care how I was feeling about it at all.



So why can't you enjoy some of this with him, instead fo judging him for it. I begged my wife to join me in these things and all she did was laugh and DJ. I eventually gave her the old sub-conscious "screw you, you heartless *****".

In my opinion, this book is IN NO WAY slanted against women. It could be a GODSEND to many women...as well as men... who read it and grasp its contents.

Fascinating discussion.

I had a MLC, though I had no idea that's what it was at the time. In the crisis, which lasted (sad to say) years, I was someone I now don't recognize. Further, and even more sadly, while in the crisis, I made decisions that affected everyone I love... and even added more people to hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

For me, it began slowly and built. For a year before my affair, I was "off"... didn't know why... began to lose weight... pulled away from my (then)H and children for six months or so... hid in the bedroom, in the dark... knew I was depressed and talked to my doctor, who prescribed an AD. My (then)H would ask what was wrong. I would say "I don't know"... which was true. I didn't know.

The apex of the crisis happened shortly after my affair, during the divorce, and then the downhill descent began. It was during this phase that I met my current H (too soon, before the divorce was final) and then married him. By doing that, I added him and his children (and heck, even our cat) into the circle of those I would harm... inadvertantly, of course. This is not to say that the harm is permanent... or that the pain can't be minimized. Of course, I have gone to great lengths to make amends and to be honest with myself and others.

It's only on the other side of this thing that I can see the true results of what became a five-year emotional/psychological ordeal. I once likened it to a hurricane... it was like I blew through situations... and only in looking back can I see the destruction. (This has been an ongoing issue for me: this looking back.)

I only write this to say that I never believed that MLC was anything more than balding men buying sports cars and flirting with 20-something year old women. It's SO MUCH MORE.

Just my thoughts on this subject...

This got me to thinking...knowing what I know now...how would I respond to a SO going through this? How would I respond to the withdrawal?

I think many men are closed off from themselves. They are confused and angry about what's happening...may not have any understanding about it. I think many spouses KNOW something is off but are AFRAID to reach out becasue they are afraid of what it might mean to their stability and security. So both take the head in the sand approach.

There's a big difference between detaching and watching your spouse drown and throwing them a life preserver.

If I had remained married, I'd like to think I would've talk to my wife about the tattoo she wanted or the boob job that she might ask for instead of saying "That's nice dear..." and going on. I think MLC is all about someone not liking themselves and wanting to make changes to see why...I would try to support that within my own boundaries. She want a tat...good for her. Piercings? Go get em. I'll help pick em out. Motorcycle? Let's buy two. Corvette? I like yellow ones. Sky diving? Well, I'll hug you before you get in the plane...

I would have encouraged her to explore...and would have gone with her where I could. At the same time, there would always be unacceptable behaviors...drugs, violence, etc that I would call her on. There are some places she'd have to go without me...and I wouldn't guarantee I'd be here when she got back...but it would still be her sovereign decision as an adult to go there.

I would LOVE her and RESPECT her journey.

Low

I think the focus on respecting men and loving women is sometimes wrong headed.

I think men and women BOTH need and desire LOVE and RESPECT, but in our JudeoChristian culture, in general, Men understand how to give and receive respect but need to be reminded of how to love. Women tend to know how to love but struggle with understanding how to respect. I think this is why Brother Paul wrote it the way he did.

This has troubled me since I read it.

Virtually EVERYONE goes through a MLC. If the above is true, why aren't ALL marriages being affected in this way.

Nope...I don't think there is a huge majority there.

I have no doubt that some may, but they are certainly NOT the norm.

Even in jest...I think the old bald guy in the sports car is probably closer to the norm...

Low:

You have stated the entire premise of the book LOVE AND RESPECT. Have you read it?

LO,

I think that the chances of a total "breakdown" depend on the emotional stability of the person affected. In my case, I believe that I was clinically depressed for years before the crisis stage. Had that issue been addressed, I believe that the crisis stage would have been far less detrimental to those I love and myself.

Yes, some of it. It's valuable in so far as it points this out, but it's still very reflective of the "family with heiarchy" model of marriage.

I don't ascribe to the "Man in Charge" model. Don't bother telling me what Paul wrote...I'm very familiar with it. The book's premise does encompass the idea that respect is more important to men because of their position of leadership in the family.

I tend to think marital equality works better. In my model, it's perfectly ok for the wife to be the head of the family...sometimes. It's a shared role.

Sometimes people want...nee...HAVE to be in charge. Sometimes they RESENT being in charge. These aren't gender issues...they are PARTNER issues.

I am NOT a conservative Christian in my views about this.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell which came first. I, too, was clinically depressed and occasionally seek treatment for it to this day. But was the major breakdown a result of the emotional trauma or was all the damage the result of depression behavior? I happen to believe that the events in my life, including my perceived spousal abandonment contributed to my emotional collapse. Not that it was anyone's fault...I'm not blaming anyone. It just was.

I understand. In my case, I can see that the depression, left untreated, came first. Part of that probably stems from my first H's affairs, which were never fully addressed or forgiven (and he had no true remorse for years - I would venture to say it came after the divorce, to be honest). I do NOT blame him in any way for my decline, I'm just saying that I did not address how devistating his affairs were to me... and self-medicated with the affair and subsequent choices I made.

No, sir, it is YOU who is wrong. How can you hold out a hand to someone who is dangling over a precipice if you don't have a firm grip on something YOURSELF? Obviously you missed the part where I said that looking after yourself is necessary for you and the people around you. So... what: you neglect yourself emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally? You remain attached through drama, abuse, and destructive behavior? THEN what? Is this REALLY what you're saying?


I'm sorry - but are you SERIOUS? I have to defend myself now? This is a highly offensive question to ask of someone you do NOT know, whose situation you do NOT know, whose husband you do NOT know. I am not YOUR wife.


We really are talking about two different things here. Exploring new things is something I would honor and respect. HOWEVER, when the changes move from the superficial to the profound, and the spouse begins to exhibit behavior that is AGAINST THEIR ESSENTIAL SELF such as abusing and neglecting the people around them, engaging in self-destructive behavior, when you can communicate with them on NO known level, and when even their eyes are cold and vacant, it is clear that you are NOT dealing with the person you know.


What prescription is that, mate? It would appear to me that your wife - with her laughter and DJ - did not understand proper detachment, and from the sound of it, neither do you.


Because that's the OW's job now. She gets to enjoy the rasta wig and all the wild wacky fun her WH is up for.


No, this is not correct. Everyone goes through a MIDLIFE TRANSITION. Not everyone goes through a MIDLIFE CRISIS. A midlife transition is what you describe you went through: questioning old patterns and beliefs, assessing, reassessing, and exploring new ones. A midlife crisis, on the other hand, involves a PROFOUND DEPRESSION, a lack of intimacy with the self and therefore a lack of intimacy with those closest around them, and is therefore far more destructive. This is the norm in a midlife crisis. It might not be the norm in a midlife transition (which is most certainly what you appear to be describing), but it is most certainly the norm in a CRISIS. I can provide links that define both transition and crisis for you if you would like to educate yourself further about these two distinct phenomena.

River Tam:

With all due respect to the sites that you are mentioning, their theories do not fit with MB Principles.



This is encouraging couples to focus on TAKING...

What do you think about this quote from LOVEBUSTERS by Dr. Harley?



I think Low's presence is a BLESSING here.

He gives an open and honest glimpse into the mind of a WH who suffered a MLC..He sounds almost exactly like my H...

I think we should listen to what he is saying....

I haven't finished reading all the posts, just catching up on the thread and I am commenting as I go along.
Why? Because I was never invited along for the ride. I was never invited into his heart or his head. All I got was anger and withdrawal and got pushed away when I tried to figure out what was going on. He made me feel like I was not good enough to be along for the ride, that he was somehow embarrassed of me. The one thing that I have always loved and admired about my husband was that he was not afraid to be himself, no matter how it appears to other people. And you know what ORbit? I used to pick out a shirt or pants every now and then that I thought he'd look nice in and he rejected me by saying "I'm not wearing that". Guess what? I found clothes similar to what I picked out that he was wearing with OW. I still cry almost every other day from the pain this MLC is causing me. Why? Because I love him. Unconditionally. TO THIS DAY, after divorce, after OW, after all the mean, inconsiderate, hateful things he has said and done to rip my heart out one piece at a time, I still love him and believe in him. THis is not the man I know. I have given him plenty of room to grow in this relationship but I was not given a chance.

I am the first to admit I do stupid things and make mistakes, but one thing I will tell you is that I am always the first person to say, I made a mistake. I was wrong. Just tell me what you want and I'll try to fix it. But I feel it is sooooo unfair for him not to tell me what the he11 is going on and then judge me because I somehow did meet some secret agenda he had going. Yes, I am angry. Yes, I am hurt. Yes, even though he is gone and may or may not want ever want to be with me again some day, I still spend way too many hours on the internet trying to learn everything I can to solve this puzzle.
Because I love him.

Remember Orbit, our husbands are not the same as you or even each other, and we are not your wife judging you.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but all the info I read says "butt out" you are not invited along for the ride on the MLC. And the messages he sends me seem to reinforce that loud and clear.

I am still wanting your input as someone who has gone through the crisis. I feel like you could be "the wizard" I am traveling the yellow brick road seeking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is encouraging couples to focus on TAKING...

[/quote]


No, you misunderstand me. You are talking about TAKING, I am talking about looking after yourself. And the FIRST thing I was told when I came here was that I had to look after myself, because it would take all my strength to get through this. I look at taking care of myself as a win-win thing: it is necessary for my soul, but it provides me with the ability to be a better wife and mother.

OK so let's talk a bit about looking after yourself emotionally, spiritually, mentally and physically. How can it possibly harm anyone if I write in my journal (emotional care), pray and read my scriptures daily (spiritual care), read a good book (mental care) and go for a walk and make sure my diet is adequate (physical care) every day? How am I taking from my spouse? And, furthermore, doesn't it follow that because I'm strong emotionally and spiritually, I can take on some of his problems onto my shoulders, or at least help him carry them? Doesn't it follow that if I'm well physically, that when he asks for, say, SF, I'm not "too tired" or have a "headache"? I am not espousing SELFISHNESS. I am espousing SELF-LOVE and SELF-RESPECT. And people who truly love and respect themselves do NOT exclude others in any way; as a matter of fact, it is the opposite.




I think it's a great quote! I totally agree! But I can't for the life of me work out how anyone has come to the conclusion that I am telling people to IGNORE THEIR SPOUSE. As I said before, several times, detachment does NOT in any shape or form involve ignoring their spouse, or laughing at their interests, or DJs. It does not involve turning their back during a time of upheaval. Please go back and read through my posts, you will find that I am quite serious about the support a spouse has to provide their MLCer spouse, and you will furthermore find nothing that applauds uncaring behavior.




Yes, just as everyone's presence is. Nonetheless, some of what he's saying is involves complete misunderstanding of what I'm saying, and furthermore adds personal judgement to it. All I am asking is for a more careful reading of what I have written, and a lack of judgement. I didn't come to MB to be called into account about what I've done to support my husband through MLC.

Thanks RT, I think this is where I am, getting caught up in the cycling. He comes close and is affectionate and loving and then withdraws again. It is he11 and I wish I had a roadmap.

Mimi, I think I disagree with you here. What's so different about that and MB Plan's A&B? Plan B is most def. detaching with love and Plan A is to focus on yourself, address your own issues that might have contributed to marital problems, take care of yourself and children's health, spiritual needs, etc. AND don't focus on what WH & OW is doing every day.

Where do you see the discrepancy?


We are listening Mimi.