<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh boy... I hear you, I hear you loud and clear! Your experience so closely mirrors mine.


Absolutely.


Shattered, have you talked to Newman, who owns 4060?

River Tam,

Thank you for your input. I am not familiar with your sitch - where are you and WH at now?

Well, I'm in Plan B after it became clear to me that his cruel behavior was beginning to erode the love. I'm three months into it today.

WH moved out late May. In our part of the world you have to wait until you've been separated a year before you file for D, so there's only a couple of months to go before he does this. He's told the children that "I won't stay married to your mother one second longer than I have to". The OW is still well and truly in the picture. A big clue to the fact it's MLC and not just "marriage problems" is his attitude to the children. He's become a selfish, neglectful, and sometimes cruel father; most tellingly, he appears to have replaced S11 with the OW's D11 in his attentions. It's heartbreaking.

So yeah, without going into many details (they're all under my thread "River Tam Talking to Herself"), that's pretty much where we're at. I gave, and gave, and gave, until I could literally give no more. He is aware that there is a veritable army on standby ready to help him through this - REGARDLESS of how he feels about me and the marriage - but he will not ask for help. He has divorced himself emotionally from anyone who knew him intimately and instead (natch) has his group of "new friends" courtesy of the OW, and that's what he wants right now.

Confused: I think that is the crisis. They don't want ANYTHING from us, especially our feedback and ideas. They are essentially rebeling against US. Afterall, we represent and are a reflection of them/their old selves. I think the only thing we can do at this stage is stand back, practice listening, open our minds to their new selves. I think that they are testing the waters one last time to see if a "better" "more fun" life doesn't exist out there.

With my WH I really feel he is deeply depressed, which I mentioned to him initially. I even called his Dr. on the QT. Of course, he won't believe he is, therefore he won't seek treatment for it. He thinks it is bad to be diagnosed as depressed. As a matter of fact, he made fun of me being on meds for it. He even said before he left "Lot of good it did you - Zoly". (Referring to Zoloft). I can tell you that hurt me a lot. I don't feel there is any shame in admitting you need help for something and seeking it.

Wow.

Actually, have you read Terrence Real's book? It's not an easy read, but boy! Is it dead-on. One of the most important thing he covers is just HOW MUCH shame there is for a man to admit to depression. Depression in men thus tends to go underground and become "covert". Covert depression is manifest outwardly in a range of "bad boy" behaviors. Like a wise man in the field said, "We act like bad boys when we are in fact sad boys." And the cure for covert depression, according to Real, is "overt" depression (ie. what is normally acknowledged to be symptoms of depression).

Male and female symptoms of depression are quite, quite different.

Shattered, have you talked to Newman, who owns 4060? [/quote]
RT, No. I never even heard of 4060 until tonight when I started catching up on this thread. The MLC angle is a new one that I am exploring.

Yesterday AM WH called to tell me he had gone to the ER the night before. He has been having some unspecific symptoms that could have meant heart trouble (didn't). My hormones must be fluctuating because I was very weepy yesterday. First off, it saddened me very deeply to realize that in an emergency, I am no longer a contact. The friend he is now living with took him and he called me the next day. I cried on and off all day over that. Just another horrible awareness moment of divorce.

I don't know if I was right or wrong but today I decided to tell him how sad it made me. I also told him that I wanted him to know if something happened to him that I still love him and no matter what the future holds, he will always hold a special place in my heart. He said he loves me too but he was not going to call me at work to tell me he was going to the ER. He said "That's not fair to you". Huh? He said if his friend hadn't volunteered to take him, he would have gone by himself. And that makes me very sad and weepy.

No, I've never heard of the book. Initially I did some research on Terry Bradshaw because he is the quintessential "macho man" who finally faced down his depression (after many marriages). I figured WH might be able to relate to him but he's been pushing all info away. I'm confused by the "cure for covert dep. is overt". Can you explain what you mean by that?

Once he made the decision in his mind to leave, he really didn't want to hear any suggestions I have. He still doesn't so I try my best not to give them. All the affair material I've given him hasn't been read.

My question to you RT is this: Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Is there a solution? Can and do they get the help they need?

RiverTam and Shattered, My experience is very similar to both of yours, from what I've read here.

LowOrbit, I really appreciate your view, coming from the perspective of the MLC'er. I don't agree with you that "EVERYONE goes through a MLC." Heck, I'm almost 55 and I haven't. I think I went through a "midlife transition", though I'm not sure how it's defined, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer at 47, had a mastectomy, chemo, radiation, reconstructive surgery, and came face to face with my own mortality. All in all, it was a 2 year journey during which my STBXWH started drinking and using drugs after maybe 9 years clean and sober, got seriously involved in the A with a 21 year old married employee (though I really think, looking back, it had been going on for several years and was only the latest of many).

I was very self-absorbed during my cancer treatment. My H really tried to be supportive by driving me to most of my appointments, but in many ways, it was too overwhelming for him, so I turned to a cancer support group. I think he felt pushed away, though I asked him every time to come with me, and he pushed me away, refusing to have sex with me for two years after my mastectomy.

As for my WH's MLC, I was left out as well as verbally abused. I've always tried to be supportive of all WH's experiments, but he too, pushed me away the way Shattered described.

LowOrbit, you have to hear how painful this was for me, for us. You understand the MLCer's pain. You need to hear our pain, too. It's not like we're just sitting there all peaceful and serenely mocking our MLCH's antics. We're being called horrible names and blamed for the pain he's in. My H was suicidal and accusing ME of changing, of not being the same, when it was HE who was changing!

I got in another discussion here recently re: alcoholic spouses. It's like the story of the blind men and the elephant. There's a HUGE difference seeing a relationship from the perspective of the MLC'er, alcoholic/addict, WS vs. the MLCer's spouse, codependent, BS. I am all of the latter three and RiverTam is so totally right-on about having to take care of yourself first. I really almost lost my health, my mind, myself over WH's behavior. I'm sure he'd say I was unsupportive and he'd still blame me for everything as he has from the beginning. Whatever...

Detachment is a term used in recovery programs that is obviously easily misunderstood. As the spouse of... , our life is being turned upside down, too, by our spouse's process - and it's a selfish process. Our natural response is to try to get things back "in control", back to "normal". Detachment helps us to let go of our spouse rather than try to control him/her. It doesn't mean reject them, turn our backs on them, treat them with disdain, all of which are attempts to control.

LIVE AND LET LIVE is a 12-step slogan that tells us to respect ourselves by taking responsibility for our own lives while respecting others enough to allow them to do the same. I don't think this is at odds with MB at all. WH and I were in counselling with Steve Harley for awhile and he told me to divorce my STBXWH 6 months after he moved out. I filed, but then spent another year trying to reconcile. I don't even want to admit all the ways I tried to join WH in his MLC behavior in order to seem like a good sport, as fun and suportive as MOW. REALLY BAD IDEA. I should've followed SH's advice!

We may have a different view of marriage, River Tam. I see marriage as a sacred covenant. So this is not just SOMEONE, although I don't think you mean it this way. I want to stress that this YOUR HUSBAND. He is supposed to take care of you when hurting,emotionally or physically and you are supposed to take care of him. I read what you are saying to mean MOVE AWAY rather than to MOVE FORWARD. IMO, two wrongs don't make a right. If the MLC, as you say, is SELFISH, it is not helpful for the partner to do the same.



I totally agree with the need for one in a R with a MLC to look after herself. However, it is not EITHER/OR. Can't you look after yourself as well as show care and concern for your partner?



This is a good question. I wish you wouldn't feel insulted by it. There's lots of learning and personal growth for you, I think, in being able to answer this question. I asked myself such a question. I was able to see what I should have done differently. It really helped me to understand stuff that happened in our marriage.


What I think Low is saying and the sense that I have gotten from my H is that although the MLCer is different, HE IS REAL. I made the mistake of wanting my H to turn back into the STRONG, VIRTUOUS MAN THAT I WANTED HIM TO BE...He tried to tell me that he was no longer that man anymore..didn't want to be that man anymore..He wanted me to get to know the MAN HE HAD BECOME...The meanness, distancing began when I would not be open to seeing him any differently.

My H definitely had a MLC as you define it. The OW was the definitely the antidote for his depression. What an addictive antidepressant....

I'll respond to the other posts tomorrow...

Mimi, I think this describes my STBXH, too. I really couldn't understand what he was going through as he was all over the map with his emotions. I tried to understand, and as you warned not to do, I tried to encourage him to do what I thought was best, i.e. get clean and sober before attempting to reevaluate his life.

I couldn't accept his plan for his life, which included drug and alcohol abuse, MOW, partying with minors, sharing drugs with some of our employees while on the job... in a healthcare business funded and closely scrutinized by the government. In fact, we were investigated once on an anonymous tip from an employee that H was stealing drugs from the facility. I accepted his story and my support saved us from being closed down...

My story is old, and I'm only rehashing it because I really can't see how I could support H's choices. At one point he wanted me to run our business alone (I was terrified of the prospect at the time, but I've been doing it now for about 5 years...) so he could grow medical marijuana on our property!


Yes, and speaking for myself, I did the best I could to do just that, in fact, I went through he** with H. I really couldn't stand being constantly yelled at so we went to MC in which he was able to express his feelings while I repeated back what I heard. We were supposed to take turns, but he only wanted to express himself, and never listened to my feelings in return without getting angry and defensive.

Do you think that those of us who didn't recover our M's really did things so differently, that we were so wrong? I guess the implication that if we'd done it right, we could've recovered our M's bothers me. Don't you think maybe it wasn't all our faults?

Post deleted by RiverTam

Shattered (or anyone else), I'm happy to talk to you about this privately. My e-mail addy is sallysummers@fastmail.fm

I see marriage as a sacred covenant too. I hold no other thing in this life as more serious or valuable. So you're right, I meant my husband, although of course the rule also applies to "someone".




I know this. Nonetheless, what happens during MLC (and I'm talking a full-blown MLC, not a "transition") is that the MLCer is plunged into the deepest of depressions. A depressed person - any depressed person - has virtually NOTHING to access. They are barely functioning emotionally themselves, and can only take care of themselves, which means there is nothing left for the spouse. This is NOT a judgement call, it is a grim fact. You cannot expect a spouse in MLC to look after you. He/She is doing as much as they can. So the reality is that you must look after yourself.

You haven't answered my question about how stuff like keeping a journal, praying and reading scripture every day, reading, and going for a walk every day will hinder a marriage and "take" from the partner, or what Shattered said here:


As an aside, while I believe in selflessness, looking after yourself in constructive ways is a GOOD thing, whether a marriage is in trouble, or cranking along nicely. We can't make our spouses responsible for our own individual growth and progress. When our lives are over, we won't be able to put the blame on our spouses if we didn't live up to our full potential.




Please don't interpret what I say. Just read it as written. At NO POINT did I say "move away", and it would take a huge leap to interpret it this way. Just in case you've missed what I've written, here are River Tam's "greatest hits" in this thread:




Again: at no point did I say this was an "either/or". OF COURSE you can look after yourself as well as show care and concern for your partner, as I have previously said in the quotes above.


Mimi, I can answer this question at great length and in great detail, as well as questions of learning and personal growth. I know the answers very well indeed, and people who know me in real life and in MLC sites will back me up. However, I choose not to answer this question in this forum merely to defend myself. I am accountable only to my Father and the people I love.



The MLCer is absolutely real. Nonetheless, when the person standing in front of you is screaming vitriol at you that you have never heard, spittle flying from his mouth, his face radiating hatred, there is great pain in considering him the same gentle and respectful person who has loved and adored you for such a long time. You can well acknowledge this person - he or she is most definitely real - but believing that he or she is the same is not correct. No, it's not multiple personality disorder, of course, but in the grip of a supreme depression, (in this case MLC) a person can only access more base emotions, not the more sophisticated ones that we need for successful, evolved human relationships. So you refer to them as a different person because it's shorthand for this state; not because they are literally a different person, or because the new person is not "real". It's a figure of speech.

For the record, my H and I used to be all-embracing of change and growth. We believed that one of the secrets to our happiness was accepting that the person we were married to was changing from minute to minute. So "change" was never a problem for either one of us. What has got a grip on my H, however, is neither ordinary (or alas, positive) change nor growth. It is DEATHLY SERIOUS, and NOTHING I can be near at this time. I've been there through it all, believe me. The behavior you and LowOrbit describe does not describe me in any shape or form.



Mimi, you just said a cottonpickin' mouthful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

LetStry,
I really do empathize with your situation. I found myself lashing out in such a manner too while trying to gain counsel and marriage recovery. One day I was irritable, angry, lashing out, resentful – then the next I regretted and became remorseful, consumed with guilt, and desperate. One day I would be committed to our marriage recovery; the next I would be ambivalent. I too said very hurtful things to my wife during my MLC. On ambivalent days it even seemed reasonable (in my clouded MLC mind) to return to the OW and begin fresh somewhere else.

Going hand-in-hand with midlife crisis or IMS are Depression, anger, irritability, self-medicating of depression (often including alcohol), and denial. Your H sounds just like a man with IMS.

Some of the typical points that we understand now about IMS are:
• Although IMS can occur at any age it is quite common at midlife.
• It can often feel like everything you thought you knew about a relationship is in question.
• IMS often strikes those who are most successful. “Having it all” can be a curse as well as a blessing.
• The first symptoms can be quite mild and difficult to distinguish from the kind of irritability that is a normal part of life.
• Later, the irritability becomes more prevalent and/or more blaming and angry.
• IMS at midlife often is related to unresolved issues from childhood. Abuse that has been hidden or covered through the years begins to emerge.
• A man feels like the life force is draining out of him and that he must escape if he is to survive.
• Though he may love his partner, he feels that something vital is missing. He often expresses this as ”I love you, but I’m not in love with you”.
• He may feel a need to move out, find his own place, and find himself. He is vulnerable to flirtations or affairs. He is looking for love in all the wrong places.
• It takes a very courageous and insightful man to recognize that IMS is contributing to whatever problems he is experiencing. Learning about it and working through these issues may be the most difficult and important thing he does in life.

Although we know that all men go through a transition at midlife not all men go through a midlife crisis. MIDMAC indicates only 15% of males experience some degree of “sadness” at midlife. (I suggest that 50% of the respondents that were in MLC were lying- typical of MLC). More recently a questionnaire of over 10,000 male respondents on the menslife website indicates that this number is more in the range of 40% and growing. Daniel Levinson in his government funded study on adulthood indicates that the midlife transition is meant to:
1. To terminate the era of early adulthood he must reappraise what he has done with it while viewing the future.
2. To take the initial steps into middle adulthood. Including steps he can take to modify the negative elements of the present structure and to test new choices.
3. Then thirdly to deal with the polarities that are sources of deep division in his life.

These three issues are very normal phases that a man in middle life will address. I might add “one way or another”.

What elevates (or degrades) this process into what we commonly call a midlife crisis is that most men are completely unprepared from childhood until now to make this transition. It comes upon us suddenly while we remain almost unaware of it occurring. Then we find it to be a complete interference into our lives which until now we have structured through personal goals and ideals. To most of us we were completely assured that THIS would never happen to me. For this reason many men in the midst of it still deny its existence as though they are the only one blindsided to what is going on with them. “That’s not me” they retort with such great conviction that denies them the help that they need to pass on through.

The midlife crisis is an awkward approach to the normal transition depicted by Levinson. Nevertheless it will produce the same results at the end of the day. The man in MLC is really dragging his feet through the process and his heart across sandpaper putting into jeopardy all that he has built of life to date, including his marriage which he also puts at risk. But according to Levinson’s Three Tasks the marriage would also be under reassessment weather it be a good one historically or not. In MLC he delays his proper reassessment of this by testing it against what may have been adolescent considerations long before he met you. Ouch – he may even consider dating in his process - a huge no-no to a married man; but somehow rational to him in this transitional phase.

Not all men experience what we commonly call a midlife crisis; but all men do make this transition.

A man in MLC entered it though the Levinson doorway mentioned above. Often and in most all cases he has encountered a “life crisis” that triggered the reappraisal. This could be the death of a parent or a good friend. It could be the loss of a job in his career. It could even be the loss of his marriage via her MLC. Whatever it was that triggered the reappraisal, it was a tragedy of sorts (to him).

If this man enters a MLC in this process he will be self medicating his condition (depression) with “feel good” antidotes of his choice. The odd thing about medication is that it tends to work, not at ridding the ailment but at relieving the symptoms. He will continue along this vein of self medicating until finally addressing that which he needed to address at the onset – the Levinson top three.

Because this was initialized via a tragedy – crisis it will more often that not take another crisis of significant measure to bring him back to reappraisal. The death of the second parent might be one. Or the loss of his marriage. Or business… etc.

It is sad to see a man that you love heading straight toward rock bottom. A great deal of marriages cannot survive this – the adversity is too great. Yet for the man in MLC an OW means nothing more to him than a new set of clubs. (He might defend that point to justify his actions at the time.) The truth is – when he finally says “she meant nothing to me”; believe it – she didn’t. She will be in the swap shop with the golf clubs at the end of the day and the stats prove it out.

The “rock bottom” of the crisis ending crisis is not pretty for a man and it takes one ****** of a wife to be there fully at the end. I hold no blame for a spouse that didn’t make it.

Well hello, Newman!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My apologies to the moderators; I was not aware that the language filter would asterix the other name for the land of hades. Can we read into that "heck" instead? THX

Hello RT you seem to scout out as many websites as I do.

I've read here often and especially during marriage recovery and found Dr Harleys writings to be very helpful. Unfortunately whatever username and password I used at the time escapes me; I needed to re-register today as I destroyed all my old email accounts and records when I finally cut contact with the OW.

Thank you for the greeting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There's just so much on this thread that I want to respond to..I started off going frontwards now I'm going backwards...

I found Newman's post to be very illuminating since my FWH definitely had a MLC..no doubt about it....These are some of my thoughts to his post...



To this I say WOW..the TRANSITIONAL PHASE....when my WH made the CHOICE to become involved with someone else...YUK!!

One of the saddest points is that there are women out there who are more than happy and willing TO DATE a married man...just like the FOW in my case. She initially was just "PLAYING" with my H..having "FUN" with him. YUK! She, of course, was young adn single, too, so fit in with the return to adolescence. I have been in the company of some these women recently. They really sickened me. Interestingly enough my FWH saw them for what they were, too, and had to agree with the PREDATORY aspect of them and how they could be attractive to a MLCer who was OUT OF CONTROL and willing to make that WRONG DECISION...THE WALK ON THE WILD SIDE....



Clearly in my H's case, the SELF-MEDICATION was the OW. He has stated that she "saved" him during his "depression" and he had suffered some MAJOR LOSSES...



Yep. My FWH has said this too. He explains this as his reason for guilt about what he did to her right after Recovery. I heard her complain to him: "You used me" and he agreed that he did. He has now come to see that he should not feel responsible for the choices that she made. However, I do get the sense that at the beginning he did a lot of the pursuing of her. YUK!!!



This ROCK BOTTOM is what we want them to reach during PLAN B..This is the man that you see at the beginning of Recovery..not a pretty site..Yes, very difficult to be FULLY there in the end...VERY DIFFICULT..INDEED...

However, I look at my H now and I am so thankful that I hung in there. He is truly wonderful..actually MORE REAL to me than before..a combination of the man that he was before and the man he was becoming at the beginning of his crisis...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok, so we're making a distinction between"mid-life transition" and "mid-life crisis"

If all of us experience mid-life transition, then how should be respond to each other during that time?

RT, you and I are saying a lot of the same things, but from different perspectives.

Under NO circumstances should the non-MLC spouse violate their own personal boundaries to accommodate the MLC spouse finding themselves.

That would include becoming involced in or simply condoning illegal activity. It's perfectly acceptable for a spouse to tell the other "I love you and will support you in many things, but I cannot support this for these reasons"

That puts the ball in the MLC spouses court. Could they leave? Could they go ahead anyway? Of course they can, but they do it knowing full well that you won't go there.

The savvy non-MLC spouse should be clear about there own boundaries and learn to distinguish between true violation and and simple "what if" talk from their MLC spouse.

Sometimes an MLC spouse will do things to test their beliefs about the non-MLC spouse. For example, he hears you say you love him but he might say "What if I want to quit my bank job and start a coffee shop?" There is a test for you in that...he wants to know you'll support him, that you have faith in his ability to make it work, that you'll still love him if it doesn't.

A sullen, withdrawn spouse is also a cue. Go after them, make them know that you are concerned and that you want to hear them. Surprise them.

I'm not downplaying anyone's pain in this. It's got to be hard watching your spouse behave in ways that are going to shake up your lives. It challenges your sense of security. Like was said in the other post, your MLC spouse may even see you as part of the problem.

As the non-MLC spouse, you CAN have influence...you try to "steer" your MLC spouse by supporting and encouraging healthier, albeit different behaviors.

I would think that saving your marriage at this point might even involve reprioritizing kid's activities as well. Kids want an intact family MORE that they want to make every game or practice. The Marriage must come first.

Particularly with men, we sometimes feel like we've faded into the background of yours and the kids life. We wonder if you really care about US or the stable lifestyle our work provides for you.

I'll share with you a couple of pivotal conversations I had with my wife that had a huge impact on my decision to seek an affair.

When I was sharing with her about the pain I felt over the church crisis, downplayed it, told me I was being 'dramatic', and said "It'll blow over by next Sunday". I was stunned. I misiniterpreted this as "she doesn't care about me as long as I don't rock her boat"

When I decided to go on anti-depressants, she made several comments about "weak people using drugs to escape their problems" and "you have nothing to be depressed about"
I was hurting and she refused to acknowledge it, actually deriding me at times. My issues were an "embarrassment to her". It became clear that I couldn't turn to her for support.

There were other things like this, but, looking back, I'm absolutely positive that if she had behaved diferently in just these two cases, I may have been able to pulled out of the downward spiral of emotional destruction I was on.

As it was, I felt terribly alone. I needed to be convinced that I wasn't alone. I was desperate for a relationship with someone who would listen and understand. Enter OW.

Let's talk about the difference between MLC fantasy and reality...

So your MLC spouse comes home and says "I'm thinking of converting to Boingoism and shaving my butt"

What do you say? I think the right thing would be to ask them to tell you more about what they are thinking...without judging it. get them to talk through how this would change their lives and your life and the kids lives. This is a good chance to increase intimacy with your spouse.

Sometimes they might ask you to push your envelope. For example, they demonstrate a new interest in live blues music and wants to go bars to see them play. This might make you uncomfortable to go with them. You have to decide if these kinds of things are your lines in the sand.

Sometime the MLC spouse really DOES want to make a change...maybe they REALLY do want to sell out and do volunteer work in South America. This calls for POJA a respectful discussion. It may very well be possible for this to happen...maybe not, but it should be seriously discussed.

I know all MLC men and women don't behave the same. But I'm convinced that they all feel like they are drowning in the life they've built for themselves and they are depserate for someone to throw them a line. I think the non-MLC spouse should be working hard to find ways to do this.

The last thing you want is to be standing on the dock telling your spouse he either has to sink or swim...he's on his own.

Low