And are we saying that men's MLC (or transition) are different from women's?

Shattered's post about her H going to the ER (I hope that was you, shattered) really hit a nerve with me, too.

A year before my own crisis, my (then)H went through the same thing as her H... we thought he was having heart problems (it was panic attacks) and there was something very humbling and scary about my big, powerful H being ... what?... sick?... afraid?... out of control? He'd always been the physically strong one, and now he was weak. That was scary, and it shook me. The tests were frightening... and looking back, I wonder if his health scare triggered something in me (don't read that to mean I blame him in any way - I don't)...

Interesting, that's all.

Newman, First I want to say THANK YOU! What you've said describes my H and our M in every way. Although I've been at MB a long time, I haven't posted much on GQII for years since I've been in NC. But, since my divorce trial date is fast approaching - yes, we have to go to trial because STBXH won't respond to any offers - the issues are resurfacing for me.

I know MOW was meaningless to him really, though he's never admitted it, but they may still be together, in which case, she's probably more meaningful to him now after all these years. I know he regrets what he's done - he's lost his M, his family, his friends, his business, his reputation, his professional license, his health... - but he hasn't stopped, just gotten worse. Before everything came crashing down, he did think he was on top of the world, but felt empty... everything you describe. I still feel so sad about what he's done and is still doing to his life.

As for the quote above... well, his mother died last Fall of Alzheimer's and he'd lost contact with her for years. WH was her favorite and they were always very close. His son, my DSS, committed suicide while heavily under the influence of alcohol at the age of 23 almost two years ago. DSS had tried in vain to contact his dad for two years before he died. He was WH's only child. WH was the most important person in DSS's life. WH is now estranged from his own father. I thought maybe WH would wake up, but apparently he only got worse.

He hasn't worked since he left over 5 years ago and I had to learn to run our business alone. For me, there's been a lot of forced growth with the help of MB and Al-Anon and just generally facing my fears. I think I went through my own "MLC" type change in early adulthood when there were fewer people to damage with my behavior and I've always believed I'd never have to go through anything like that again. This experience has been equally painful, because I've had tragedy after tragedy for the past ten years starting with my mother's death from breast cancer, followed by my own breast cancer diagnosis and treatment, then H's loss of sobriety, increased abusiveness, and sudden departure with MOW, rebuilding my life, DSS's death, and MIL's Alzheimer's and death. Now I'm facing divorce and my Dad's imminent death (at the age of almost 99), which has brought me back here.

My feelings aren't anyway near as raw as they were when I arrived here and I really believe I did the absolutely best I could at the time. I'm open to learn what I can, to accept my part in what happened, but I'm still sensitive to the implication that if marital recovery didn't take place, it's because I - the BS, the codependent, the MCLer's spouse - didn't do more, do it better, do it "right".

Oh, gawd...I played out this exact scene. It took me along time to STOP feeling responsible for the OW's choices. I was the pursuer as well. Yes, I did use her...and I felt so guilty about that.

Your H and I sound like we had very similar experiences.

I wouldn't think they are that much different. Of course the circumstances vary, but the mechanisms are pretty much the same.

Totally agree with you. I tried.


During our one false recovery, WH was consumed with guilt over what he'd done to MOW, so much so that he went back to her and never left. I think he believed she "needed" him more than the kids and I did because she had a lot of issues. I think WH saw me as stronger than I saw myself!

This thread is really so enlightening... and I didn't think it was possible for me to delve more into the reasons I made the choices I did... I've done it so much already. But it's brought up other ideas that I'd never considered before...

My first marriage was almost cliche... his infidelity at year 7 (the Seven Year Itch) and my infidelity occurred the year I turned 40 (MLC)...

I am reading through this thread and realizing how... it's almost like... we were headed on this awful path... he and I had issues anyway, of course, but... our lives had taken such a turn the year I turned 40... lots of changes occurred that I was particularly nervous about... but I hadn't realized how scared he was, until I read shattered's post about her H's heart problems and remembered my (then)H going through the same thing. Makes me want to call him and tell him how sorry I am that I didn't realize his pain during the beginning stages of (clearly) both of us going through the transition - mine just turned into a full-fledged MLC.

It's all so... sad.

It wouldn't be right for anyone to do that. You did the best you could with what you knew.

You probably know that I am getting divorced. I'm trying not to be bitter about it. I did everything I knew to do to save things, but it didn't work out. I have to accept that despite my best efforts, maybe there are things that I could've done better. But I can't change that now.

I think when we talk about these things, we tend to sometimes take them as being directed AT us. Sometimes they are, but for the most part, if I mention that I think XYZ, it is not meant as indictment of anyone's previous behavior or action. Heck, I might have even made the same mistakes. I f I stay engaged in life to any degree I will surely make many more.

Your story sound very difficult. Your H went down a path that no one could have reasonably expected you to follow.I'm sorry for your loss.

Had I made similar choices, and my wife behaved like you, I wouldn't have blamed her at all.

Peace, Low

LETSTRY:

I'm reaching out now to give you a BIG HUG!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I hope no one is getting this from what I am saying. It was my H's decision to deal with his problem by having an A. I don't accept responsibility for that. It was his decision to try to reconcile with me. I chose to give our marriage another chance..as painful as that was. Recovery was perhaps the hardest part for many reasons. I only take responsibility for the part I played in the problems in our marriage. Period. Who knows if it would have made a difference? Looking at this stuff helped me to understand, though, what I ( with emphasis on I) needed to do during PLAN A..helped me understand the changes that I needed to make in myself in order to be a better person, a better mother, a better wife (to my WH or a future H) and a better person in my profession. There was absolutely nothing that I could do about the past. The same holds true for you or anyone else. I'm taking all that I am learning and making the best use of it that I can for TODAY and THE FUTURE....

SHATTERED..YOU SAID:



I think in this discussion we need to make a distinction between the MLCer prior to the A and the MLCer once he becomes a WH. My H at the beginning of his crisis WAS NOT the same man he became when he was a WH. My H, once addicted to the OW was NOT AT ALL HIMSELF. Then, there's the SOUL-LESS man that he was when he hit his bottom and had to go through withdrawal. Now, he is basically back to being himself.

You said:


I said almost the exact same thing as you did in my first individual session with Steve Harley. First of all, as I indicated in my previous post, Steve's goal was to help me devise A PLAN..not to kick me about the wife that I had been prior to the A. He was helping me to see what I had to do RIGHT THEN. Well, here goes..STEVE TOLD ME THAT MY H WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE TO TELL ME..This blew me away. He asked me if my H had TO TELL ME WHAT HE NEEDED WHILE WE WERE DATING. He explained that in a romantic relationship, when a couple is "FALLING IN LOVE", the partner's NEEDS are anticipated..that is part of the fun of it. That's what OW/OM do..they anticipate what is needed. Do you see what I mean?

You said:



You see..here's that phase issue again. At the beginning of my H's crisis (I'll speak for myself), I was invited along for the ride. Now looking back, he was not specific in saying what he exactly needed but he asked me to come to certain events with him..he didn't want to go to church every Sunday, wanting to stay home and snuggle...lots of different behaviors that he wanted me to JOIN in and not to CRITICIZE..nothing really BAD in his case...

Once my H had decided to DATE...decided to CHANGE HIS OWN ETHICAL STANDARDS..it was too late..HE WAS GONE..at that point, he no longer wanted me to join in...

Sounds like you did a great PLAN A, Shattered. You did all that you could and you continue to do a good job..in what you said to him about his medical emergency...

Also, during Plan A, he will continue to give you the outward message to "butt out" because this is confusing to him. He has decided that he wants out and then you change. I remember my FWH saying, almost with regret: "Why are you doing this NOW after I have gone to far to turn back" (or something to this effect)..

However, during the midnight hours, when he is reaching his bottom, HE WILL REMEMBER THE SHATTERED that you were during PLAN A..He will long for you and want to be with you when the OW no longer can produce the high..Well, this is how the scenario hopefully works...

Whether you reconcile or not, it is important for you to continue to GROW into the BEST PERSON that you can be..not for him..but for yourself..if he returns, he will need for you to be STRONG because he will be BROKEN...in need of HEALING....

I agree with new beginnings, that this thread offered me a lot of insights on stuff I thought I'd already rehashed to death. As I said, my impending divorce has brought it back into my mind. Looking back, I reacted very defensively and fearfully to my WH's behavior. Recognizing that his process really didn't have much to do with me, even though he blamed me, and that my reactions, in many cases, only made things worse, has helped me to let go of the hurt and blame, to be able to move on.

I'm not sure I could've even heard the good advice and insights offered here, but I hope someone who's going through this now can learn something that helps them to avoid some of the pain I, and others here, have gone through.

Hi all, I haven't been able to catch up in a few days and now I have so much to say I seem to be rendered speechless. I do love my husband and I do see him as hurting very badly. I know he has a lot of shame and has isolated himself because of this. However, he is still carrying on an affair. I really believe in my heart of hearts he will get it out of his system and want to come back home and settle down again. The question is where will I be at then? I don't know. I try to be a friend to him by not shutting him out of my life and our son's life but sometimes it is very difficult. I feel like one day I may just snap and say I'm done.

I found a letter my SIL (my side of the family) wrote me last July. My brother has been having a MLC since the day he was 13, had numerous affairs, addiction issues, and finally left my SIL (married 20+ yrs) for his latest OW, who he then married. He is one lonely broken man. I think the new wife is having an affair on him and they pretty much live seperate lives now.

Anyway, in this letter she had a lot of good things to say about growth and happiness that I wasn't anywhere near ready to hear back then. You know sometimes people don't realize that there is a period of many, many months that it takes to wrap your mind around the pain. Any advice given to you then is wasted. What you really need is emergency care and love. Period.

Anyway, I have just re-read letter. One of the things she said was this:

First of all, you need to know (do not just read this word - believe it) that unconditionally, and without reservation, that you are going to be fine. In fact you are going to be more than fine, you are going to be better - actually much better. You are going to reach a happiness that you dared not even imagine or hope for yourself. There are going to be some tough moments, days and weeks ahead . . . divorce is so much like a death on so many levels. But absolutely the time will soon come when you will know that you will be okay. Sometimes our life course does not enable us to learn valuable life lessons and become our better self in an easy way. Strength, courage, persistance, bravery, fortitude - so many different ways to get to all of this.

Okay, all of the above are true. So where does that leave me with my ex? Can I still achieve this or hold onto it if we reconcile? Am I settling if I let him back? If I am going through positive growth and he is in a tornado of negative growth - then what? I have to be honest. If I blossom through this, will I outgrow him? And if I take him back will he hold me back?

What are your thoughts about this?

Oh boy, where's Dr. Phil when you need him?!

Mimi,
I do not know the context that SH told you this but it doesn't matter. I totally disagree. If you go through life expecting your spouse or anyone else in your life to carry around a crystal ball and anticipate your every need, you will be seriously disappointed with those around you. Each of us is responsible for our own happiness and if we aren't achieving it, it is up to us to step up to the plate and make ourselves understood.

I also don't think this is Harley's intention. His whole policy for relationships is based on total and complete honesty. Why would he even have you fill out the EN questions if we are to read each other's minds? As a matter of fact, this is where most marriages derail. Expecting a spouse to understand and anticipate the unspoken.

I felt the same way when I started reading some of the MLC stuff. I too was tired of rehashing and overanalyzing the past couple of years of my marriage. I had an epiphany of sorts when I read some of the MLC material. I wonder how many of the BS's that come here are spouses of MLC'ers. I wonder because most affairs end when they are caught. The ones that wind up here seem to be long term marriages hit by a swift "makes no sense" affair that the WS is willing to hang onto for dear life. A lot of the WS behavior here seems to fit the MLC profile.

It does help me have empathy for my husband. The hard part is that I am powerless to help. Medication, reading material, self analysis, etc. would really help but they have to find it and want it on their own. It's hard to stand by and watch a train wreck happen that you could see coming and were helpless to prevent.

Sometimes I think this is a cosmic test for me. Sometimes I feel I was given this crisis because I could love him through it. What's in it for me? Personal Growth. Sometimes I gag on those two words and want to scream ENOUGH ALREADY, I'm perfectly okay stagnating for a while, thank you very much!!

{{{{{{{{{Letstry}}}}}}}}}}},

My heart goes out to you. I struggle with situations like yours and wonder how it is that some people seem to be hit so hard so many times by life. I don't know what to say other than I'm glad you're here and my hand is extended in friendship as a fellow passenger on life's journey.
S.

I read this very same thing on another board about a MLC going to ER. I tried to backtrack and find it but I can't. How interesting that this seems to be a common thread. I said to my ex "You know, it could be stress." He quickly replied "I'm not stressed." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Wow! D-E-N-I-A-L

I guess that response makes sense for him. Stress/depression/anxiety, etc. are taboo for him to admit to. I am starting to realize he has some strong "manly man" thought processes. I think he'd much rather it be something physical like his heart than stress or anxiety.

Hi Orbit,
I didn't want to leave you out and have you think I was ignoring you. I am sorry to hear about the confirmation of your wife's affair. It always hurts, even when we expect it. How are you doing now with MLC issues or just life in general?
S.

Okay Newman - are you my ex? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> All kidding aside, that could very well have come straight from his mouth. What happened to your marriage? Inquiring minds want to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, thank you a thousand times for your insider's view and comments. They help immensely in understanding this insideous disease.

Shattered, Thank you for asking.
I’m a midlife guy who went into MLC for 4 ½ years and into Full Blown MLC for a year and a half. In full blown MLC I withdrew from my wife and family and from all that I believed in and said “its going to be about ME now”.
I resumed a thought that I had taken on some ten years earlier at the death of my father saying, “life is a b!tch and then you die”; only this time I applied that thought to me. I was tired, weary of life and burning the stick at both ends. I felt burned out and cut short of obtaining all of my life goals. I looked ahead to my remaining years of life and determined that I was now too tired and too old to start again or contend on the competitive edge. My failed achievements mounted up in my mind until they blanked out any of the real achievements that I had made. All I could see was my failures.

I couldn’t live with these depressed feelings and sure as heck couldn’t let them show; but they wouldn’t go away. My wife pressured me to fill her in on what was going on in my head; but I didn’t want to talk about it. Finally yielding to the pressure I discussed my feelings. She countered my sense of failure by recounting my successes. This may have worked before but not this time; the feelings didn’t go away so I determined to “fix it” myself.

I considered that since everything that I had ever thought, done, or believed in life had only brought me to this place of failure - I needed to make some changes. I set aside my “belief structure” because it was obvious to me that it failed me. I set aside my work and engagement in life at home. I determined that my life was going to be about “me” now. I needed to “be me” for once instead of working so hard for everyone else’s comfort. I craved after anything that would make me forget that life was a b!tch.

I began to compensate for the things I was feeling about life by becoming more extroverted and outgoing.

I took on a persona that would outwardly express a contradiction to what was “real” on the inside of me.

I got a sports car because while I was in it I could feel like I was a free spirit. I loved speed and this car put out! Feeling like a free spirit though didn’t feel quite right when my wife was beside me so I started taking trips and time alone. I began to meet people that also seemed to be free spirited and began to develop new friendships. I started organizing events to bring these friends together.

One on one with them I was always clear that I really loved my wife and they were never vocal about their question of where she was. Jokes about “Colombo’s wife” flew right past me. Besides which, all of the other men in my age group were also there alone. These parties began to grow in excitement and numbers. Soon we had people flying in just to attend a party that I would throw. Often the men would leave the parties with new partners but I always slept alone after an event. Organizing these events made me feel good and I kept all of them secret from my wife.

The females at the events were also free spirited and although I never paid them much attention outside of friendship they too began to question the whereabouts of my wife. Although it was obvious to them, I was oblivious to the fact that my “single” attendance was sending out messages. I began to receive correspondence from several women offering to attend events with me and even to share my time and hotel rooms. I laughed them off thinking “everyone knows that I love my wife”. I continued unaware that my lifestyle was presenting a contradiction to what I was thinking and saying.

>>>Don't be fooled Gentlemen - Women just call men predators! they are equally more capable<<<

While these events continued and I was becoming more involved it became increasingly more embarrassing for me to reveal what was happening to my wife. I didn’t feel I could explain my reasoning, my whereabouts, or even the new friends in my life. It became a “double life” for me that although didn’t include an affair did make me feel good and cover my past feelings of failure and depression.

Now immersed in a secret life I felt strongly that I needed to stop because the pressure of this façade was too great for me to keep at home. Between these party events though when things were too quiet I would feel like [censored] again; this always happened when I was at home. The organizing of events and the events themselves were giving me the good feelings and adrenalin rush that countered my feelings of failure and depression. So I increased the time away from home and increased the number of party events.

I formed a committee to manage what was growing into very large events with both men and women on the team to coordinate activities. One of the women on the team added me to her instant messenger online. First we communicated party plans only in between organizational meetings. Over time she communicated more of the matters of her life until the personal conversations began to override the organizational conversations.

But I didn't stop these conversations either...

I met on occasion with other members involved on the Party team, and again I would take a hotel room. One time the meeting held at my female friend's place included too much alcohol consumption. I stayed too long and eventually fell asleep from the alcohol. (Okay - I passed out - but I aint telling you that!) I woke in her bed and not alone! Frantic for an explanation of events from the night before I was assured that everything including my fidelity was intact. Feeling safe in the friendship now there didn’t appear to be a need to take a hotel following future meetings if I had been drinking over the legal limit. From here I crossed the line into serious compromise – a secret life that included an affair.

Innocence lost is never regained. I was involved outside of my marriage. As the frequency of contact, drinking, and party life emerged, the line between alternate realities of the double life obscured the reality of life in my marriage. As the one increased the other diminished. Future plans excluded my wife and began to include my affair partner instead. It was blurring the line of demarcation between who I knew that I was and who I had become

I was cycling between periods of feeling depressed and feeling good.

The lifestyle I had created was a self medicating antidote to the depressed feelings that I had inside. These periods of cycling that were periodic at first then became more intense with my affair. As long as I continued “self medicating” myself I seemed to feel okay until I got alone.

The answer seemed in keeping active enough to avoid thinking too deeply about life or what I was doing. I intensified my drinking and party life to include very few sober hours often kicking back a stiff drink very first thing in the morning. The intensity of this time was such that very little of it remains in my memory today and what does remain seems scattered like a fragmented hard drive. No defragmenter here though!

Odd as it may sound to anyone reading this I never did stop loving my wife. I had displaced her.

Including an affair as part of self medicating at midlife complicates matters entirely. I was already accustomed to covering up a secret life that excluded my wife. Lying about being involved with another woman was not too far of a stretch. Yet I was beginning to see past the puppy love of the affair already and I was considering what life would be like with the other woman. I wanted out and was already feeling trapped. When my wife confronted me I disclosed my affair; I wanted it to end.
Disclosure ends nothing for a man in midlife crisis. More often than not it only makes matters worse.

Externally it may seem that it brings freedom to the secret life by bringing it into the light of day. Internally the same problems exist but are now magnified. It’s like pumping up the oven temperature from 450 to broil. It doubles internal pressures. To the depression it now adds feelings of guilt, moral failure, integrity failure, remorse, regret, and a host other complex failures. If depression was initiated from feelings of failure this disclosure of the affair magnifies it and elevates it way beyond.

If you are a well seasoned man in midlife crisis you know what to do next – increase the self medication. You counter your emotions with outbursts of anger because you cannot show your own hurt. You lie and create even more excuses for your behaviors that are now exposed.

The disclosure of my affair that I intended to end it nearly drove me to the other woman. To somehow justify my actions I lied and said that I loved her to ease my guilty conscience and moralize my infidelity, I said that I was “in love”. Somehow in a childish mind “love” is supposed to excuse such behaviors. I was like a child exposed and caught in a wrong.

The other woman became eager to succor my problem situation that she assumed to be caused because of my sincere love for her drew nearer. We now have a common enemy – the wife; right? Typically, yes; for me, no, because I had never stopped loving my wife and untypical of midlife crisis I had never spoken against her either. My other woman found this to be threatening to her position. She immediately became insecure about our relationship and she was right to be. My wife never reacted to my disclosure she responded. She said in very simple terms “if you love her you better go to her; which furniture do you want?” In midlife stupor I replied that I didn’t want furniture but that I wanted to keep both women! Neither one of these women could see my way of thinking though in as much clarity as I had in that moment of revelation. Odd that isn’t it!

I left and came back many times feeling completely unsure of my life.

On one such occasion I was supposed to be headed back to the OW house after a property division talk with my wife when I woke up.

I was driving at the time and it came on me that suddenly. I wailed out loud with a loud groan that seemed to come from my stomach. Followed by questioning: What am I doing here? WTF have I done?, how could I have done this to the most important person in my life? How could I have hurt her like this? And who is this woman that’s been in my bed? Tears filled my eye sockets and I really didn’t know what they were because I hadn’t cried in 40 years. It was hard to see the road from the sports car. I drove 15 more miles in tears to a dive of a motel and took a room where I could be alone and cry the rest of the night. The next morning I spent several hours writing my thoughts into a “dear jane” letter to my affair partner and thinking about life from the bottom of life.

By nine the next night a thought occurred to me that I was hungry. That perhaps I could get pizza and go out to my W place with it and a bottle of wine. I found the pizza and wine and drove 25 miles out to my Wife’s place. I started to feel “chicken” as I got within a mile or two and then remembered that my wife used to put a lamp in the window whenever I traveled and only turn it off when I got home. So I decided to go around the long way to see if I could see a lamp burning. If there was a lamp, I would drop in; if not, I would keep on driving. When I crested the hill all I could see was a single light. It was from the window. I stopped sharply in the middle of the road with my chest pounding with fear and excitement. It had been a year since I last looked for the lamp in the window.

I called her from my cell and said “I’ve got pizza: I’ve got a bottle of wine”. She asked “where are you?” I said up the hill – look out the window. She pulled up the shade and I flashed my head lights. She said “well come in”. I did. I haven’t left again since and never saw the OW again since that night.

I wake up gradually in the mornings and my waking from MLC was that way too – gradually. I awoke in an instant but it took several months to actually become alert.

During this time my cycling became seriously intense but it was different, it had changed. I was no longer cycling between feeling good and depression; now I was cycling between depression and sheer panic. When I wasn’t feeling consumed by guilt and regret and remorse I was consumed by panic in fear of saying or doing something that would cause me to lose my wife and our marriage.

By being in such a state of fear I kept stumbling over my own intentions. Wanting desperately to save my marriage I was doing everything to nearly destroy it. I would lash out in utter anger and the next day be crying at her feet for forgiveness. As we continued to talk and try to work things out the guilt/panic cycle increased to almost hourly. In the end my wife tells me that I would leave the room angry and enter it again in remorse. She never knew from moment to moment weather she would be dealing with Dr Jekyll or Mr. Hyde.
Our marriage restoration was often confused by periods of ambivalence. Both of us wanting to stay committed would waiver on the side of ambivalence questioning “should I stay or should I go?” It’s easy when things are going good: not so easy when they are not. I wanted the whole thing to just be over! She needed to understand.

Men, you will not only know this you will understand this – you said things and did things that you have no recollection of. You would swear on a shoulder height stack of bibles that you didn’t say or didn’t do certain things during your midlife crisis. These things are literally not in your memory; they are gone. The best thing for you to do is to stop denying it. You did it and she has razor sharp memory of it. She was there; you weren’t. If there is a time to get over your need to always be “right”; this is it. You may have said things yesterday that you will swear today that you didn’t say. This doesn’t mean that you have lost your mind it means that you are normal in the process of recovery. Accept it and move on. A year from now you can laugh about it.

Today I devote many many hours of my day to helping other men get through this MLC. My wife and I run the fortysixty website and forum that includes private areas where men or wives can help each other through this often horrible time in life.

Again, thankyou for asking,
Newman

Newman4060, that was an awesome post....and I've got to thank you for clearing up part of a mystery for me.

It seemed CRAZY to me that my husband could say things and then deny that he'd said them. And it really did seem to me that he either remembered it wrong, or didn't remember it at all.

How is that possible though???