I'm finding it difficult to perceive of a BS as "foggy"..traumatized may be a better word...

I was the one with THE PLAN..my mind was just as clear as a bell and I did A LONG PLAN A...

***He who ACTS like they value the R the least, controls it.***

This is, in fact, one of the rules of any sort of negotiation -- it's not just an MB rule. "Whoever cares the least will win."

If anyone here has read the classic science fiction novel *Dune*, you might recall Paul M'uadib's famous line: "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."

Mulan

I think that in a lot of cases, the whole Plan A thing is nothing more than giving permission to the WS to continue what they are doing

see that is not one iota of plan A...not one....plan A is speaking clearly the pain hurt and awfulnees of the actions of an affair..WITHOUT begging powerstruggling breaking down and even escalating in to physical outburs and decomposing a 'conversation' in to a name bashing fest....

And teaching a BS to hold in their feelings, needs and wants in the relationship

well they certainly have other options in most cases they are futile...

WS build huge huge walls of entitlement and rationalization...
a BS can stand in front of them till literally blue in the face and cry out their needs feelings and wants...but the truth is...the WS is prepared for this...and doesn't appear to care or hear...

they expect this..
the whole time a BS mouth is moving saying I want this or I feel that...they are forming their counter arguement back...justifying why they the WS FEEL NEED WANT...

plan A is about demonstrating needs and things...
it is about NOT wasting time going to someone to get your needs filled who have NO interest in filling those needs at the present time....

Plan A is about getting certain needs filled by others....in full view of the WS..so they see someone else doing what they should...

showing your spouse that you are willing to do anything to keep the marriage and change yourself to your WS liking better."

I haven't met a BS here yet that is interested in continueing in the marriage they had pre-affair....
and that wants to keep the old marriage....

because I didn't allow him to walk all over me, trying to hang on to him, or manipulate him into staying
plan A done correctly is NONE of these things...

You describe plan A well...when you see others acting differently you should point it out...

Plan A has a definite time period ...posters can not control or makes someone else do anything...

time frames are clearly defined in the plan/...

ARK

Hey Dr. L. -

I completely agree with you that the BS can be in a "fog" too. Whether you call it "fog" or "denial" or "traumatized" or anything else, that person is all but helpless until something compels them to move out of that state of mind and it's hard not reach down and try to drag them to their feet if you can.

I think your message is a good one. Perhaps a slightly more patient "bedside manner", without changing the message, would have a better chance of getting that same message across to those who need it most without frightening them away.

Of course, I myself would *never* be accused of being too harsh with posters here, or of being too blunt, or anything else like that --
From Mrs. Pot to Dr. Kettle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

m finding it difficult to perceive of a BS as "foggy"..traumatized may be a better word...

I was the one with THE PLAN..my mind was just as clear as a bell and I did A LONG PLAN A...
<<

I think at times, the length of the affair, and the PLAN A attempts, allow the fogginess to continue and envelope the BS as well. I've seen, and these are just my observations, that at times, the BS is so caught up in not confronting their WS, not doing anything that might upset the WS, showing him/her the "new and improved" BS, that they do get caught up in the fog.
I agree, there is tons of trauma in discovering your spouse is having an affair, no question about it, but the inability to see the forest for the trees tends to lessen as time goes on, and you distance from the discovery.
Maybe it's my analytical mind, but my Plan A was not about trying to woo him back, it was about his making a decision, whatever that may have been and then moving forward.
In some cases, Plan A works, and yours seems to be one of them, but you must admit that there are PLAN A's that have gone on far too long, and it has become a form of permission for the WS to continue doing what they are doing and basically there are no "repercussions".
I'm happy for you that your PLAN A worked, and that it has for others, but I don't believe that PLAN A is always the only way to go in dealing with infidelity.
Best wishes for a long and healthy marriage,

Star*fish,

With “I'm losing my love for you because I no longer find you attractive” I might go get a new haircut, go to a tanning salon and dress up. I would not address the problem: I am too fat.

I would rather say something like “I'm losing my love for you because I no longer find you attractive since you added so much weight”. Get’s the true message across without “unnecessary” pain.

Radical honesty and being impolite are not the same. Look at SmartCookies recent reply to Waitingonlove. It’s firm and a virtual slap in the face but is exactly what WIL needed. What is more WIL acknowledges it to be so.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the truth.

I do think people have a problem with others who believe their perception of the truth is the only valid perception of the truth.

When another's assertion of thier view involves denigrating my own ability to discern truth for myself, that becomes disrespectful and does not foster understanding and dialog.

So, in short, acknowledge your opinions for what they are...you are entitled to them. But don't claim that your view of truth is all there is...it isn't.

Here's an example:

My uncle insisted that his daughter's 1974 Pinto was a real piece of junk. In his mind, this was fact. His daughter dearly loved the car, so in her mind it was a great car.
The facts are that the car required some more maintenance than others in it's class but was generally reliable.

Two different viewpoints of the same machine. She got tired of hearing him badmouth it.

Low

Lemonman,

Here is an honest post. Personally, I like you and find your perspective valuable....and I've told you this before. I think MB is better with you on it. Sometimes your style is just the ticket....and sometimes....it does more harm than good. Nobody is really any different...anyone's style has the same mixed results. Sometimes, I think the sarcasm and name calling gets out of line...but usually I agree with your general "take" on a situation. Sometimes, what you call the truth/fact....is really just YOUR truth and your opinion.

But if we're going to talk about "playing"....well I'm beginning to feel "played" by you. This is not the first time that you've threatened or implied that you were leaving the board....only to resurface with a post like this one. It smacks of needing to hear people tell you to stay.


This is not the first time you have you asked if your "style" or "perspective" were valuable or if you should be silent or leave? I don't even spend that much time on GQII....and I've read multiple posts by you which appear as though you're seeking validation or justification for your style. For someone who is supposedly so self assured....I find that confusing....and wonder if we've become the "enablers" in some co-dependent dance. Your post are sometimes controversial....can you accept that some people won't like them? Or can't you? Be who you are without apology or complaint.....or change and adapt as you see fit. Either course is ethical. But for someone who speaks against coddling....it sure seems like that's exactly what you want. "No, lemonman....don't leave...your posts are invaluable!" You pummel the need for change and self examination in others....while you resist changing yourself, examining where you might be able to grow using both honesty and compassion......those two things are NOT exclusive. You refuse to do what you demand from others...LOOK at what you're doing.

Let me ask you this. As a doctor, you recognize that sometimes you have to hurt your patients in order to heal them. But if you have a choice of getting the same results....would you choose to hurt them MORE than they need? Would you add pain....just for good measure? I know you would not. I know you would make their discomfort as little as possible without compromising excellent results. I think you could adjust the dosage of the medicine you dole out on this board. Too much is likely to create bad side effects. Too little....reduces good results and healing. Find your balance.

So post....or don't. Leave....or don't. Surely you don't need constant reassurance from folks that you are valuable or need to hear "please please don't leave Lemonman!"?? But either way....make it your decision and not a polling of the board which always ends up being another controversy. You're either confident in who you are....and are willing to stand behind your style...or you aren't.

I feel that everyone here has something to offer. I also feel like there is a lot of disrespect on this forum. There seems to be a problem when someone, usually a BS, does not do exactly what someone, usually a vet, tells them. I don't know about anyone else, but I come here to get advice, not told what to do and then made to feel bad when I don't do it.

This is a place where people give their opinion on what someone should be doing to save their marriage. Let's face it, we don't know each other and can not begin to know the "real" situation in someones life. Only what they share with us here. So we all give advice based on what is shared with us.

I don't like harshness but I don't mind someone disagreeing with me as long as it is done respectfully.

I don't like when someone publically announces that they "quit" on someones thread. If you don't like what is going on then simply don't post to them any more. By announcing they are quitting it seems they are crying out for attention and for someone to beg them to stay.

I think that each individual knows when the time has come for them to move away from this forum.

I guess bottom line is we all know how to use the delete button and should use it when we see fit. This is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion and their style of delivering it.

One more thing, I also think the person who starts a post has the right to ask someone to not post to them if they do not like what they are saying or the way they are saying it. I have seen it a few times here and that seems to work.

All of this is JMO of course!!

sandi,



Well my FWH's A was over by d-day, but not for too long before and I couldn't agree with your statement more. I suspect and completely believe that this would have been my position on things if the affair had still been ongoing.

FWH didn't really understand the concept of NC and I had never been to MB at that time. On d-day I made it 100% clear that any contact between he and OW ever would be the dealbreaker.

We are still together and doing OK so far. This whole experience has allowed my FWH to see the "softer side of me' and the toughness that makes him certain that if he ever slips up again, we will be done.

Who

Sandi, while this is the "common sense" approach, you should know that you were probably lucky that it worked for you. Harley points out that ultimatums rarely achieve the desired end.

I'm fairly positive that if my wife had told me this on d-day, I would have chosen to leave. Instead, she offered to make changes and work on the marriage. It's the only way I was coming back.

Much to my dismay, my efforts at re-investing in the relationship were ultimately met by her withdrawing from it. She eventually checked out.

Low

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. What worked for Sandi...worked for me. In my situation, D-Day was a showdown. If I had blinked, I'd have lost.

It was only the fact that I 'opened the door to his cage' that made my husband emotionally accessable to me again. If I'd have given him any other option, he'd have kept his distance. As it stood, he had to be either 'all in' or 'all out'.

And yet, they may be being played at that moment, but they THEMSELVES are marriage building...no matter what the wayward is doing.



Nope. Not imo. BTDT - SURVIVED it thanks to MB.



But see LM? This isn't wholly about saving a marriage...this site is about learning to save yourself. This site is about taking back control over your life. If plan A doesn't work, Plan B...and plan B is about protecting YOU no matter what the outcome of the marriage.

LM, it's a learning process. It's discovery of oneself, it's learning to buck up and do what's right for YOU. What's right for me is not what's right for Jelly, or Mimi, or Robby or NCW...and it certainly wasn't right for YOU...am I correct dear man? What was right for me went against everything in your sensitivities....you stated so....but I did what was right for ME.

Just because your opinion of what I needed to do wasn't what I actually acted upon doesn't mean I didn't listen to you.

Your experiences, you wisdom is needed even if it's not heeded.

With loads - tons - of respect,
Kimmy

This thread is getting a lot of response. There are good tips coming from it from various posters each give their take on the initial post. Good thread.

I understand Low, but I viewed it this way, if he really didn't want to be here, then there was no need to drag it out, prolonging the pain and suffering for all of us, OW included. If he wanted to leave, then leave he should.
I had given all that I had to give for all of our years together prior to his affair and I was not going to give any more to a relationship that he wasn't invested in. I also was not going back to carrying the load for our marriage, if he did stay. I expected the same level of commitment and hard work from him that I was giving and if that wasn't enough to keep him here, then so be it.
If I were your wife, I think marriage is compromise, lots of it, it's darn hard work and if you aren't prepared to change, expect nothing to change. When I married my husband, I knew who and what he was, and I accepted it with no expectations of changing who he is.
Anyway, not sure what I was trying to get at here, but I wish you the best in your future as you move forward with your life.
Sandi

That is very interesting.
I think there was a time I would have made that comment.

Right now, my biggest issue is one of personal responsibility . Without that self ownership, I don't "see" hope in these awful messes people make for themselves .

Very interesting JL....

Exactly ~~ how I see it too.

Carnation

Sandi520

I agree with your position.

Worked for us. 10 year recovery.

Pep

Wow...star*fish...VERY well said...

Lem I think you should really think about that...

REALLY...

Don't just "LOL" it...

Your motivation for threads like these must be either

what star*fish outlined

OR

just to stir the pot...

Which IS a method used by one particular poster lately,

(NOT YOU) that drives me completely INSANE!!!

I also think that Mimi makes a valid point...

Are you confusing your opinions with fact?

I can certainly see how this could be an occupational hazard for you...

Anyway...you said no PC...so no PC...

Just my musings after reading...

I would like to see ANSWERS from you here...

You do recognize THAT about yourself, right?

It is your style many times to say what you wish...

and then backdown...appearing to bow out...

Typically that appears as a dismissal...

of the other person's opinions or questions...

Instead...

Give us something refreshing here Lem...

A new approach where that is concerned...

SELF EXAM???


Mrs. Wondering

Lem,
I enjoy your perspective...the devil's advocate at times...it balances things here. We are all here on a journey...along the way we learn what we can from those we come in contact with, some you agree with some you don't. In the beginning of our journey to survive through infedility we are desparate, in a panic, in denial. Some times we just can't take in the impossible and consider it. As we progress we realize the impossible is very possible then probable...then certain.

You are that flashing sign on the highway.."DETOUR AHEAD" and somehow when we get there we are surprised.