GF - do you understand the definition of an Emotional Affair (EA)?

Many people, and you may be one of them, only think an "affair" has actual sex involved, and therefore if there's no sex (or no one can prove there was) then it's not an affair.

We know better around here.

Even if - *if* -- you WW has not had sex with this man, she is pouring out tons of emotional support right onto him instead of giving it to you. Do you feel neglected? Starving? That's because she's filling OM's emotional needs (ENs) and ignoring yours.

Marriage is more than just sexual fidelity. It's also emotional fidelity. Married couples are expected to take care of each other emotionally as well as just sexually, and when they don't -- when they start being "emotionally promiscuous" and ignoring their partners to fill an OP's emotional needs instead -- it is every bit as damaging to the marriage as being sexually promiscuous.

***But what if they really are just really good friends, and they are couseling each other with their problems?***

Then It's Still Not Okay!!!

Married women have no business being "really good friends" with other men, and single men have no business "counseling" or "being counseled" by married women. These actions can and will destroy your marriage and they WILL lead to these two having sex if they're not already -- and GF, you had better prepare yourself to learn that that's already happened.

I think you need desperately to read a book called *Not Just Friends.* You can get it on amazon.com. It will explain exactly what I'm trying to say. Infidelity involves a whole lot more than just sex.
Mulan

Ok, I was leaning the same way, but I needed someone to validate these feelings; thanks Mulan.

I realize that an A can exist without sex (though I'm not convinced that they haven't started a PA). I just wanted to make sure that "counceling" each other and spending so much time together was still "inappropriate", even if there is the possibility that there is no physical contact (yet).

Get the key logger and tape their conversations if you can...that will help you get the evidence that she won't be able to refute. If she insists on going to LV then maybe your Dad can help fund a PI....so that what happens in LV doesn't stay in LV.

I would find it hard to believe..as many others have said, that this isn't already a full blown PA...sure it is heavy on the EA due to the distance...but I'll bet if you taped their conversations at night or other times you may catch some phone sex. Her conversation with OM about OM meeting women could have been a ruse....or just part of their game.

It's "inappropriate" because it robs the marriage of the care, time, energy and nurturing it needs to survive. That's why infidelity is called "cheating" - the BS is cheated out of getting his/her emotional needs filled so that an OP can get double helpings instead.

When your wife gives her OM all that time and attention and care, she's forcing you to do without. Would it be okay for her to hand him *your* dinner plate and let you go hungry, as long as she says she won't have sex with him?

That's what she's doing to you emotionally. That's why it's not okay.
Mulan

GF:

It's because you have a small child (and because you're military), that Mortarman is the perfect MBer for you right now.

If you didn't have kids, or if your kids were grown, a slightly different tack might be in order, because your WW's A is similar in many ways 2 Former Gorgia Guy's (FGG) xW's A - the talking for hours every day kind of thing.

The OM sounds like a real piece of work. I'm not a fan of confrontation, but putting the fear of an angry betrayed H - one in the military for Rice Cake! - in him might scare him off. But it might not, and so confrontation is often not very effective because the outcome is so hard 2 predict.

While you're polishing your plan A (always a good first step) and being firm about stating your boundaries (you don't condone visits 2 OM and you won't PERMIT ANY contact with your D), be prepared NOT 2 see any positive moves back 2 your M on your W's part. If you don't expect great things, you can't be disappointed if they don't happen.

That isn't 2 say "don't hope". You should have hope for a better fu2re, and the MB plans are designed 2 help you get there at some point. Just don't set yourself up for disappointment by expecting great results. They may be a while in coming.

"She's told me that he is very loanly and depressed (he's in his late 30s and has never had a family). I guess guys have a bioligical clock too?"

I don't know if I've got a biological clock or not - and I'm 53. That's like 3/4 dead! Look, don't let her manipulate YOU in2 feeling sorry for this goof. He's lonely and depressed? That's HIS problem and NONE of HER BUSINESS. Even if he's suicidal, that's his problem. He should seek help from someone he's not involved with - and that would be true even if he was involved with a single woman.

"Anyway, knowing that, I've heard little bits and pieces of her conversations with the OM before. And I've heard her suggest places he could/should go to meet women."

Also not her problem. This goof needs 2 learn the difference between lonliness and soli2de. Finding another woman 2 whine 2 is not going 2 help him help himself.

"It's little thoughts like this that fill me with doubt about exposure, it makes me think "What if I'm wrong?" I still feel that her relationship is inappropriate, spending this much time talking to him and taking vacations to/with him. But what if they really are just really good friends, and they are couseling each other with their problems? "

They aren't qualified 2 counsel each other. WE don't meet other MBers of the opposite sex one-on-one precisely 2 avoid any appearance of impropriety.

The goof needs a therapist, not a gullible married woman.

-ol' 2long

GF:

Steve Harley once defined an affair as "what your spouse thinks it is."

-ol' 2long

2L:

I have to pipe in here....I admit, reading you say that you are not a fan of confrontation made me chuckle out loud....no $hit.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is all good. Please don't take offense.

You give some good ideas, but where I would disagree with you is where you seem to put way to much emphasis that this is somehow all some psycho depressed OM pulling ths strings here. I don't see it that way at all. I see GF WW as a strong, domineering type woman who is only comfortable if she is in control and calling the shots. I see this more of her manipulating this situation with the OM than vise versa. This is very evident to me, actually is it screaming that. The OM is some poor schlep with probably no self esteem and self worth and is madly in love with the WW here...and will do anything to make her happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Confrontation.....or really lack therof is the problem here, but NOT necessarily with this wimp of an OM.....

We can agree to disagree....or agree that I am right and you are wrong.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

lm:

Or... ...we can agree that you misinterpreted my post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for confrontation: Many don't remember this, but I *DID* confront Rat Meat when my W was about 2 meet him (with our teenage son in tow) on a field trip 2 years ago. I used one of cerri's form letters, adding only "I've seen recent emails between you". Pretty firm and 2 the point stuff. He apparently 2k that as a sign that there was HOPE for continuing the R with my wife! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ...hence my observation that confrontation - or any of this stuff for that matter - might not produce the results the BS expects. So, it's better not 2 have expectations.

And I agree with you 100% that it's his W and her manipulative behavior talking here - the OM's goofyness isn't the issue. It may or may not be what he is, but that's not important.

-ol' 2long

And perhaps my point should also be:

Be prepared 2 realize that all you do, all you feel, during the period of time between d-day and recovery, is for your benefit and and personal growth and yours alone.

Nothing I've said or done - good or bad - has made any difference whatsoever in my W's behavior. She's pulling her head out of her nether regions now (finally, after over 4 years!), but she's doing so of her own volition.

The good news is that the positive things GF or any of us learn or do during this time are good for our personal growth. I'm a much stronger, happier, and far less attached individual than I ever was before. When/if we do fully recover our marriage, things will be forever different. Better.

-ol' 2long

Lem, I think you've hit the nail right on the head, my W is the controller, she is certainly not gullible.

I stood up to her tonight though. She asked me if there was a particular weekend that I want to meet hime, and I told her the truth. I don't ever want to meet him, and I don't want our daughter to ever meet him.

She got defensive and asked why, I told her I didn't want to fight right now (our daughter was right there on the couch); but she persisted, so I told her that my feelings about thier relationship haven't changed and I am not going to condone it any longer. I said that I am no longer going to appease her just in the hopes of making her happy. "You have hurt me more than I've ever hurt in my life, you have threatened me with the horible fear of losing you, you have done these things already and I am no longer going to agree with whatever you say in the attempt to make you happy, because frankly it's gotten me here."

So she pulled the same old argument out of the hat "What I can't have a good friend becuase he has a pen*s?" "I will not allow you to dictate who my friends are." So I said, "nothing has changed from the other night, your relationship with him is inappropriate."

So she went outside to have a cigarette and called him. I have no idea what they talked about, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.

Once she was outside my D said "Daddy you told mommy that you didn't want to fight, but she is still fighting with you...why?" I wasn't ready to talk down about my W to our D. Do you think I should? Would exposing her A to our D be going too far? I know it would piss my W beyond belief and am afraid that it would cause irreperable (some of you may have noticed by now that I'm not a great speller)damage.

(this next part might be distasteful for some)
I wouldn't be surprised at all about the phone sex either, the other morning I discovered a bottle of personal lubricant on her night stand. When I asked her about it she said that she was having some feminen dryness from all of the tanning she has been doing at the tanning salon, and that she is using it to help with the dryness. Not sure if I buy that or not.

Ok sex part is over with.

When she came in from outside, she asked why I'm making this ugly. I said that I'm not making it ugly, and I'm not the problem, her relationship with him is the problem. I said "I agree that we had problems before you met him, and our marriage wasn't great; but it certainly hasn't gotten any better since you met him."

She goes "So your not willing to meet him now?" I said no. So she says "well I still want our D to meet him." I say "No". She says "well you can't stop me, you don't have the right to decide who I introduce her to." I said, "I'm her father and I do have the right"..."no you don't"..."yes I do". Then I left before things got really nasty in-front of our D.

How can I keep her from taking our D to see him?

I'm still shaking, I was sooo scared standing up for myself to her. My heart is still pounding. I'm going to have to wait until I can settle down before I know if I'm happy with what I did...I think I'm happy. She didn't blow up though, she's just got her quiet indiferent but pissed attitude going.

Should I keep pushing and do the sleep-in-my-own-bed thing tonight, or should I take it a bit slower...wait until we have a night that we don't fight about the OM?

Dude, nice job standing up for yourself....I am proud of you. Now, you should do all of this is in a controlled manner without yelling. Speak clearly, look her in the eye and say what you mean and mean what you say.....DON'T YELL or scream or call her dergatory names....just state the facts as you see them. This is a big step for you here. Now, she may try and bully you back down to submission, so you must realize that keeping your boundaries may get harder. If you feel you want to scream or "light into her" take a 10 minute breather.......Calmness and Composure will make your actions so much more stronger here. Stand up for what is right here. YOur daugther at the very least deserves this.

Goodjob

Lem

Ok, well apparently while I was typing up my previous post, my WW was talking to our D about mommy and daddy getting a separation. Now, 9:30 at night my D is in tears becuase she wants what daddy wants...for us to be a happy family. But mommy doesn't want that.

She really picked up a lot from our conversation tonight. She picked up on the fact that I don't like the OM, even though I never talked about him before to her.

When I was talking to her about it, I told her that daddy loves both her and mommy very very much and that he does not want to have a separation.

WW was pissed, and makes a gesture at me out of sight of our D where she pointed to her head and mouthed "are you retarded" to me. I kept my cool and just said there is no reason for you to be mean like that. It's so not like me to keep my cool that she thinks I'm being condecending, even though I'm not, I am being completely 100% honest...I love my wife and I want to keep our family together; plain and simple.

I think it was HIGHLY inappropriate for her to talk about separation with our D without my express permission, and certainly not right before bed.

Our D is devestated, my WW is just so cruel and mean!!!

I don't think I'm going to sleep in our bed tonight because I am just sooooooo angry right now, and if I'm near her I'm afraid I might lose my cool.

I'm just rambling and putting my thoughts on here as I think of them.

Well it's started, no turning back, I have to stay strong and cool...wish me luck!!

Ok, our D is crying her eyes out because mommy and daddy are going to live in different houses and we are not going to be able to have fun together anymore.

WW says that it is my fault because I gave our D false hope by telling her that I am going to do everything I can to keep our family together and be happy again.

I say that it is WW's fault because she brought up separation in the first place.

I may have messed up...I outright accused her of having an A. I told her that she is so addicted to the OM that she can't see the pain that she is causing me and our D. She said that she doesn't give a damn about the pain she is causing me, and that she is not causing our D any pain.

You guys predicted the fire spitting demon pretty accurately, now I pray that the prediction about exposure will help lift the fog....I'm so scared now.

I know that it has to be done, becuase our marriage was pretty much over anyways, but that knowledge isn't really helping to stop shaking, or get my heart to stop pounding out of my chest, or keep my stomach from wanting to empty all of it's contents.

Once again, she promised that I will be served with papers next week.

Did I make the right move? I hope I did. I still didn't call her names, though I did turn her attack on me back on her...she came back with the same old "your delusional if you think you're going to keep this marriage together", and I said "no I'm not delusional, you are because you can't see that your A is causing all of these problems."

She's on the phone with him right now....what are they saying? It's outside on her cell phone, no way to eavesdrop. I should just go to bed and avoid any further arguments tonight. I don't know how much longer I can keep my cool.

She told our D that I am going to be moving out...devestated her. I told our D that I am NOT going to move out.

Is it possible for her to kick me out of the house? She said that if I tell our D one more time that I am going to try and keep our family together she will get an immediate court something or other (I can't remember what it was)to get me out. Is that possible...what is it? Can I do it if I need to? How?

What do I do?!?

You need to see a lawyer -
SOON !!
So you can have a plan in place in case she does try something.

This is not something you can "wait and see."

There are cases where the WW lies, claims abuse, and gets a restraining order. I don't think you can afford that.

Your calm is good.

Lets talk about fear.

What's going to happen will happen. Your plan is to do the best damage control you can.
Can you control this?

No, and you know it.

What you can do is the best you can. Thousands have been through it. You can read the boards and see successes, and failures of marriages, but you can also see personal success even where the marriage failed.

You are going to find out what kind of man you are. I think you should have faith in yourself. I think you are made of more than you might think.

Hold your head up, do what is needed. When you wonder what to do, do the best you can.

If you believe in God.... Pray.

Take the day off if you need to. Tell the law office it might be an emergency. Explain what is going on and ask to be protected. See what you can get.

Tell your daughter you will take care of her. Tell her you love her. She can see how this is going, so comfort her and ask her not to be afraid.

Tell youself that others have made it through, and so can you. Then believe it.

She said that if I tell our D one more time that I am going to try and keep our family together she will get an immediate court something or other (I can't remember what it was)to get me out. Is that possible...what is it? Can I do it if I need to? How?

Tell her that if she lies to the judge to get you out, she will probably go to jail, because you won't back down, and you won't go away. Use your best confident voice, and a quiet tone. Then walk away and let her think about it. HOWEVER, see a lawyer too. Don't take anything for granted.

It will cost you, but a Divorce will cost lots and lots more.

It's time to be a light house for your daughter. Let the storms break, but stand firm, and keep sending out the beacon light. Keep this in mind as you talk to WW. You are the light house. IF this can be saved, it will be by you.

Keep your light on.

SS

GF...

Just catching up on your thread a bit...when I came across the above...to which I *must* say...

ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY DO NOT BUY THAT!!! IMPOSSIBLE...Here's how I know...I own 2 tanning salons...The customer demographic is 65-70% female...Additionally I have sold more tanning beds/booths of different brands and configurations than I could count...I've been in this business since the age of 21, and I'm currently 36...I know it inside and out, and this, my friend, is a RIDICULOUS lie...I can assure you of that with 1 GAZILLION% certainty! Really, our industry takes quite a beating from some within the medical community: trust me, if someone had ever even hinted at such a thing, we would know, and how!

You need an attorney...immediately...before you get one secured...Mr. Wondering is an attorney(tax law), but he can advise you some...when he wakes, I'll have him come, read and post to you...I see that Brit'sBrat is here also, hopefully she will be back sometime today as well...

GF, you are doing great...you are listening and learning...Try to stay calm, if she yells, you whisper...I know everything is very uncertain, frightening and painful, but know this and believe it...YOU WILL BE OKAY...NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS...YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS...and you will have many here to help you do it...you are NOT alone...my heart breaks for you and your DD...I am so incredibly, deeply sorry that you are going through this...I just said a prayer for you and your sweet DD...this board can and will offer you the greatest support...this is an amazing community of people...the principles of Marriage Builders will be a Godsend for you...I am very glad that you are here...


Mrs. Wondering


P.S. Dazed, you are AWESOME...you might just be the next MM round here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...take care!

If you stay out of the bedroom for a couple more nights you can probably get a tape of one of their conversations. Or, you can tape a recorder up under the seat of her car. OR where she has her cigarettes outside...up under a table or chair(?)

You do not move out of your home; if anyone is to move out it should be her...she is the one (having the A) wanting the separation.....you have done nothing wrong to warrant moving out of the house yourself. Secure your rights.

Keep your voice calm, controlled. You must be the sane centered one here.

Definitely schedule an appointment with a lawyer to find out where you stand legally. Discuss the possibility of seeking full custody if it comes to that. Also, see what can be done to prevent your WW taking your DD out of state for any reason...ie. going to the east coast or to Canada.

You are doing well, so far.

Move back in to your bedroom soon.

GF,

Although I am writing this long dissertation to you, because developments in your sitch (i.e., your situation, story) are happening so fast, you need to do the following three things ASAP. My dissertation will come later.

1. Contact a lawyer TODAY or no later than Monday. You don’t have time to wait.
a. Unless your WW makes up a lie and the court buys it, she cannot kick you out. So DO NOT MOVE OUT under any circumstances.
2. Stop making excuses for not snooping. You need to buy the materials to snoop TODAY and start doing it right away. I mean RIGHT AWAY!
3. EXPOSE to your parents and her Family this weekend. However, I suggest you expose after you have gotten some proof of her A that you can use in court, lest, as alluded above, she makes up a lie and kick you out of your house by, say, claiming ABUSE before you have the requisite evidence. Rest assured that is a real possibility.

That is why it is very important to work on those things ASAP, like NOW! Time is crucial here.

I am also very, very PROUD of you. You did good last night.

God bless

Call your mother in law

tell her you are concerned that your wife intends to introduce her grand daughter to a man who is suicidal, unstable and you want to ask MIL for her assistance.

Expose your wife's idiotic plan to grandma.

Tell grandma that a strange man is being FORCED into your daughter's life and you need to be a TEAM to make certain that never happends !!!! Tell grandma that you have NO idea if this man has a criminal record ... but your wwife said he is lonely and troubled ... and that does NOT sound like an appropriate person to introduce to a child ....

GF~
Your doing great. You see how she reacted when you stood up for yourself and the marriage? She was upset and tried to bully you into submission with more threats. Most of these threats are just that. You can take the power out of those threats by not reacting to her. She wants your approval so she IS NOT THE BAD ONE. This is all about her and getting your approval. Don't give it. Make her take the hard way out of the marriage. Make her carry all the shame and guilt if she is going to go. Don't help her out.

This is the fog babble my friend. Get used to it. Do not take it seriously. Do not react to it. Don't get caught up defending yourself. This is how she will draw you into the arguement. I know this part is hard. It was so hard for me to do. You want to straighten her out so badly but you have to learn how to first.

You did good with the boundries. 1) Defend your roll as father in order to protect daughter from your WW. She is out of control completely lost in the fog of her affair. She is not thinking about anything other than herself right now. Affairs are completely selfish.
2) Defend your marriage. This means you will not give up on the marriage. You can't allow her to make you leave the family home. My wife did all the same crap yours is doing. She told me to leave when she got mad. I just told her no. I am not the one having an affair or want to leave. I believe we can have a great marriage but it is your choice. If you want to leave, and can go with a clear conscious knowing you did all you could as a wife and a mother then it's your choice. If your affair and this other person is more important that than your daughter, then it's your call to leave the marriage, but I am NOT.

It's important you make it known it's her choice. Because really it is for one, also you are not telling her to leave or helping her do it if she does.

At this point she will begin to re-write the history book of your entire marriage. She may tell you she does not love you and never really did. Prepare for the worse things you have ever heard come from her mouth. It will be so hard to hear. Know it is all fog babble and bull $hit.

She will have to demonize you to make it ok in her mind to do what she is doing to you. It is sick I know. It is wrong and so painful to hear. Actually the fact she is so hostile and angry with you is a good thing. The fact she is confrontational with you means there is hope. If she was calm and withdrawn then you need to worry. Her being mean and yelling is her way of negociating with you.
Plan A is all about negociating and you have a great chance.

You did great standing up to her. She will try to break you. She will try to get you to believe it's over and to just let her go. Don't do anything to help her out of the marrige. If she leaves the house, don't give her a hand with nothing. Don't leave the house or hid your daughter so she can put together a bag to leave. Make her do it right in front of you and your daughter. My wife begged me to leave for a hour so she could pack up. I never did it. She had to drag a laundry basket of clothes out to her car right in front of our daughter. It was hard for her to do knowing that our daughter new who was wrong and not standing up for the family.

Your daughter needs to be protected from your WW's tyraids. Get a pocket tape recorder and record your wife freaking out in front of your daughter. If this goes to court the judge will crucify her for that. He will also look down on you for not protecting your daughter when it happens.

She may become violent with you. Don't fight back. Tell her you are calling the police. Do it too.... I had to do this to make it known to my wife that I was not going to take it and she was not going to bully me. Having this on police record will also help you in court.

I suggest you start a journal to keep all this crap straight. It will help you with your lawyer. Also you need to get the cell phone bill records as proof of the affair. You may become sick to when you see the records.
My wife was averaging 350 phone calls a month and 400 text messages. The cell phone was OM's life line to her.

You need to get all the information you can ASAP so you can begin exposure. You have to find out who this person is. You need to know names, addresses, where he works, who is family is, everything. Then run a back ground check on him. You turn up something that could scare your wife away from him.

One last thing. How are holding up? Last night was tough. You must keep your job and try to continue to be as normal as you can. Nothing will feel normal. You are hurt. Your mind is racing a million directions. This is normal. Remember to eat and sleep. This will give your mind needed strength to continue. In order to keep yourself busy, find things to do with your child. Plan things for you two to do. You should invite your WW, but don't count on her going. She will be amazed that you are not caving in to her. She will ultimately admire your strength but not right now. She will see you as not begging her or clinging to her leg like she imagines you will. This will make you attractive to her. Maybe not right now, but it will.

Lexxxy will tell you that nothing clears out fog faster than the feeling of the doors closing and the family moving on with out her. This is dance you will learn how to master. You see you need to represent the family and what is right and sane. You stand for marriage and family. You will have to be her way home to the marriage. The light house that she can see her way out of the fog and home.

Prepare yourself for the next battle. You're doing great.

Wonderful post, Dazed.