ditto

I agree with the others- do not give her the card.

She is gonna go ballistic when she finds out she can't take DD out of state! I love it!

You cannot legally wiretap phone conversations

but you can legally tape record YOUR in home face-to-face conversations

keep your recorder at the ready

when your WW returns home

tape your conversation about DD

it will come in handy
remember
stuff like diary and tapes CAN be used for child custody hearings
it's not a criminal hearing ....

let's give your WW a nicname

my vote is

Lost In Vegas ... LIV for short

I'm not looking forward to it. I'm very nervous about her coming home today, but I'm also feeling incredibly lonely right now.

As for the card...I'm feeling pretty dumb. I left it on the kitchen table this morning. I don't know when she gets home, but she might see it.

I bought it in a moment of weakness...I just want her back so badly.

[color:"red"]I just want her back so badly.
[/color]

not 'as is'

you want your WIFE back

not this terrible creature

WE want your wife back too

but she's not herself yet ... hold out for your wife not Lost In vegas Girl

Pep, lawyer said that it is illegal to tape any conversation unless both parties agree to it. I'm asking the lawyer today what I can do to protect myself from false allegations.

get a 'nanny cam'

they are not illegal

use it to keep an eye on any future childcare providers

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

hey now...that's an idea!

GF - I haven't been able to read this entire thread, but I read enough of the early posts to conclude your wife and my XW had the same brain surgeon up on the Mothership.

The good news for you is that you've received excellent advice and a lot sooner than I did. I didn't find MB until a month after being separated. You're in a much better legal position than I ended up in.

I'd like to give a big ditto to MM's advice above. When your wife finds out what you've done, you will be the scourge of the earth. The devil incarnate. You will not believe the vile spew you will hear and the antics you will see.

DO NOT get drug into her cess pool. Repeat the mantra. When you are at a loss for words or are confused by the foglatin, a good universal response is, "I understand your concern."

Stand tall and do not flinch. You are the most powerful man on her planet. Act like it!

Thanks WAT...I hope I'm up to the task.

Well the "nanny cam" is out too...here's lawyer's response:

"Yes, you're petitioning for what is called "the primary residential parent" and the other parent has a visitation schedule.

I'm sorry, but you can't record anything unless you specifically tell her, on tape, that she is being recorded. This includes all forms of recording. There is nothing we can do to prevent her from making up allegations."

I'll keep monitoring the phone, to get her plans, and any more ammunition I can get, but it will be imperitive that I never reveal my source or get caught...if I do I'm up a certain creek without a paddle.

You CAN tape record to use for YOURSELF! Sure, it is NOT legal there to tape record and use it in court. But...to tape record and keep to yourself for use in deciding what you need to do...that is different.

If it were me, I would record. I would hide it, make darn sure it cant be found...and record all that I can. then, listen to the recordings so that you will know exactly what she is thinking, saying and planning.

As General Lee found out as he headed to Pennsylvania...if your war plans are found by the other side, then you are cooked!

In His arms.

I just wrote a letter to the OM. I was going to put it up here to get everyone's input before I send it.

But it does contain a lot of personal information, with only names being edited.

Should I post it?

remove any identifiers before you post it

TALK TO HARLEY before sending OP a letter

HE has EXPERIENCE with this

What are you hoping to accomplish?

Recall I haven't read all of your story - what does OM know of you and your marriage? e.g., does he know your wife is, in fact, married, not seeking a divorce, not separated, and you're not a axe murderer?

WAT

I'm pretty sure that my wife has been feeding OM a line about how we're over and I'm ok with it. I want to burst that image that he has of me.

From the comments that several people have made on this thread, based on his emails to my WW, he sounds pretty flaky, so hopefully (though I agree doubtfully) he'll just disappear.

I wanted to expose to his work, but my lawyer recommended against it until after the motion for temporary orders. But I still feel the need to be proactive, so I thought I'd give him something to chew on.

IMHO, a good case can be made to communicate once with an OP to attempt to counter the likely lies told be the WS. I'll bet cases abound in which a lied to OP has bolted upon hearing the truth. But this is not predictable, I think.

Some BSs try to communicate morals which only makes them fodder for ridicule from the OP.

JMHO

WAT
-------------------
Sharonstone: To show more skin than justified at one's age. "Ewwww, Sally's mom sharonstoned us at the pool party."

Should I put it up for you to see? It's not to convey morals...it's a history of my relationship with my wife, and why it's important for me to save our marriage.

Copied and pasted the email between OM and GF's wife so WAT and others can read:

"Ok, so I was talking with Dave about this subject in light of all recent upheaval in our office we got talking about our future plans if the call/conversation with Ken doesn't go as planned. Dave is going to move to another agency and mentioned I could go with him but since it would only be a two block move I would still be stuck in WA! I told him about my confusion about where to go outside of WA, whether it is here, there or anywhere. To that comment he laughed. "Why would you move to another state when you still have things up in the air with OM? You should hold off on the move idea to another state until things either progress or stale with him. Picture this, you move to CA and then you guys decide to get serious and boom you are moving again, doesn't make sense. Why are you not planning on moving to VA as a first choice? I know I joke about you not going by why are you not contemplating that Little Missy?" Bear in mind that the "quotes" are the best to my recollection since some of us are not as gifted in the remembrance department!

So needless to say, his comments/advice got me thinking. Part of my brain says I do want to go to VA and see where things go with you but then the other half of my brain says, okay, so you go there and then things bomb, are you guys still going to be friends? Notice I have to listen to my brain because it is still able to reason versus simply listening to my heart. Would I be stuck in a town that I don't know anyone and the only other person I do know wants to do me bodily harm? At this point I know I am running the risk of saying to much and getting the much dreaded response of "I can barely do for myself; I can't handle having to worry about someone else." What will your reaction be to me saying this? I figured it better to write it down and not talk to you for a bit... that way you won't "react" in a way that will be hurtful. I am truly not placing any expectations on you (really I am not) but since Dave mentioned it I have had thoughts swirling around in my mind as to the logistics of it. Some good, some not so good. One thing that does come to mind is the "girl with a kid" comment you made, granted a while back but it still does weighs heavily. It's not fair of me to expect that you would want to progress a relationship at warp speed AND be faced with insta-family (just add water!). Would it freak you out? Am I placing expectations on you, would you feel like I am? Am I over stepping my bounds as a friend?? Why am I always being the forward one? I tell you that I care about you and then I say that I would consider moving out there to overcome the "distance"
thing, I feel like I am always jumping forward first. It's weird but I have only known you for a short period of time but I feel like you're my best friend-I think back to the puzzle thing. Corny I know, but I have a lot of friends but very few that I let "in" and I certainly do not have anyone that that seems to "get me" like you do. So anyways, I guess I should stay put until things do or do not pan out with you and me. Make sense? Ok, not that I really want to feel the wraith of your comments but what do you think or my rambling? Be honest, I can take it.

Okay, you happy? I sent you what I had written before I got interrupted and took out the part where I started to back pedal....




And here's his response:
Okay. So here's my much dreaded response...


First... I'm kind of freaked out.
Second, I'm just f*cking with you...
PSYCH! (Okay, is that getting old yet??) (=

Seriously, there was nothing in this e-mail that "freaked me out" or made me feel like you were placing any new or unusual expectations on me. I also don't feel like you were "over-stepping your bounds as a friend". Frankly, I appreciate most the fact that - despite your reservations to the contrary
- you still were willing to share your thoughts about things with me.
(Granted, it was like pulling teeth to get this freaking e-mail out of you!)
(= Anyhow, I just want to be clear before I respond directly to any of your questions that I never felt a twinge of anxiety or pressure when I was reading this - either yesterday OR today (so you can't say that it's because I was under the influence of Nyquil)! (= So, here are my responses...

Regarding Dave's comments to you - have I already told you that I like Dave?
(= I'm glad to know that someone else is out there who genuinely, I believe, cares about you (as opposed to some who may pretend to care for you when they in fact just want attention, validation, sex, and/or something else from you - known or unbeknownst to themselves). Basically, I got the feeling that he's someone you could trust (despite some of his possibly questionable choices in personal behavior, i.e. pursuing you outside a marriage without having communicated those feelings to his wife, etc.) - and that's a good thing. I do, however, still believe that there are certain conversations best not shared outside of a relationship. Basically, I don't mind you having "objective" conversations with others about you and me, but I would also prefer that some of the more private conversations/matters be kept strictly between you and I. I believe that some things just can't be understood by a "third party" and those are the conversations that I would prefer be kept between just the two of us. I think that we're already on the same page about this, but I figured - while I'm thinking about it - that I should probably share that thought with you. I guess what I'm asking is that you try to listen to your own feelings, your own instincts, over those of anyone else - including me. (I'd like to think that you can trust me completely, but I know that it's probably a little difficult for you in light of my occassionally "volatile" and "annihilistic" personality...) (=

Okay. So, regarding your thoughts about moving to Virginia... My thoughts right now are very similar to yours. I keep thinking that it would be nice to see you every day - and have you sleeping in my bed each night - but another part of me (my head, I guess) has some of the same reservations that you do. What if things don't work out for some reason? I don't want to put you in a potentially "risky" or difficult situation, especially when you seem to have so many good friends in Seattle. I also don't want to put you in a situation that's difficult for (DD) and (Good Father) without knowing where things are headed between you and me. But in order to find that out, I also need to be able to see you more often that I have. I hate the fact that you're so far away, d*mmit! Couldn't you have picked something closer than Washington State?! Oh well. Such is life, I guess. Nothing, it seems, can ever be simple. (= Anyway, I do like you a lot - and it's weird to be getting only glimpses of what it's like to actually be "with" you or around you. Despite some of our communications glitches, I've enjoyed the good times that we've had when we're hanging out together. (I know that I've been "difficult" to understand at times, though, too - but that makes me appreciate you even more, I think. I genuinely appreciate the fact that you've been willing to take that risk, because I know that I'm not necessarily the safest person in the world to be around right now.) And even though things might have been "rough" at times this past weekend, I ended up walking away feeling really good about things. I really enjoyed our time together on Sunday day and night - and I wish we had days like that more often. The rational side of me knows, though, that it's not going to be that simple. I'm not sure what to do about the distance thing, but I'm willing to discuss it with you further. The difference is that I would like to be able to discuss it with you in person or over the phone, and not just through e-mail! (=

Now, about the other things in the second paragraph - namely the "girl with a kid" comment and your remarks about our friendship, let's start off with the more potentially sensitive subject of the two: the "insta-family". I would be lying to say that some part of me - not a "loud" or overwhelming part of me, however - doesn't feel just a little bit of hesitancy when I think about the possibility of "entering" someone else's family. The idea that a child might not feel as strongly for me as she would her "real"
father - or the possibility that maybe I wouldn't feel the same love for that child as I would my own - those are thoughts that truly scare me. I would never want to feel those things - and it may not be, nor would it probably be the case that I WOULD feel those things. But, what if for some reason I don't feel that unconditional love or acceptance that every child should be able to feel? I would never be able to forgive myself because I would I never want someone - a child - to feel anything less. I want to be able to love my child or children unconditionally - and I don't doubt my ability to love my own children that way. Before Evi came along, I had never considered the possibility that I would or could love a child other than my own in the way that I have come to love her. But do I know that I'm capable of that in every situation or with ANY child? I don't. I do know that I wouldn't want to feel anything less, though - and that scares me.
What if, for some reason, I don't feel that same way? What if she doesn't feel the same way? What if she never feels for me what she feels for her father? Would she call me "(OM)" for the rest of my life - or "Dad"? I know that people say children love unconditionally, but is that always true?
Is it necessarily true for me - even if/when I think that it should be? I don't know; nor can I know any of these things for sure, and it's that uncertainty - the unfamiliarity of the situation - that makes me somewhat hesitant. I always figured that I would meet and marry someone under circumstances identical to my own. The situation in which I find myself with you, however, could potentially be an unfamiliar one. Does that mean that I've ruled out a relationship with you as a possibility? No, I haven't. Do I feel like it's some kind of "strike" against us? No, I don't. Does this change any of my feelings for you? No, it doesn't. It's something new, though - something different - that I need to become accustomed to and comfortable with. Despite the fact that I say I don't look for "paths", there actually ARE certain paths that I always expected myself to take. In the case of you and me, I'm simply having to adjust to the idea, the possibility, of a different path than the one that I always "expected".

Does that make any sense to you? My choice of words probably doesn't make you feel "all warm and fuzzy" inside, but it reflects for the most part, I think, how I feel right now. If I didn't like you as much as I do, I might not have been willing to consider a different "path". But it IS something that I'm willing to consider with you. I'm not able to predict the future (like you, apparently!), but I know that I feel more for you with every day that I've been able to spend with you. I consider you to be an invaluable friend - a bit of a saint even at this point - and someone who may very well become or may already be my best friend. My own personal trust issues, I think, are preventing me from being fully convinced of that, though. Part of me feels that you are; another part of me is reluctant to believe it.
Time, I think, (and patience on your part) are probably the only things that are going to resolve that debate in me. I know that those probably aren't the words that you want to hear from me, but they're the best I can do right now. My heart has been hidden away for a long time now - and I don't think that it's not going to emerge easily from its protective (albeit
candy-coated) "shell". (= I'm trying, though, and I hope that you've been able to see that. I look forward to talking with you each day, and I look forward to seeing you again even more. My only problem right now is that absence, unfortunately, does not make my heart grow fonder. It makes things harder. I just wish that I had a way to spend more days with you like the one we had this past Sunday. It stands out in my mind as a good day, and it continues to linger in my mind as a reminder that I want you here - beside me. I miss seeing you - but I also don't want to cause any turmoil in your life. I think that your idea to take things slowly - but not too slowly - is probably a good idea. I would absolutely like to see you more often. I would absolutely like to spend more time with you. But I also don't think that either one of us should be contemplating changing jobs or locations on behalf of the other - or at least not until we know that we're on the same "path". If you choose to stay in Seattle, I will make a point to come visit you there - despite the great distance! (= If you choose to move elsewhere for work, I'll visit you there as well. And if, in a few months - or however short or long a time it takes, we decide that moving closer together is something that we should consider, I'll absolutely be willing to talk about it - either now or then.

I hope that you'll be able to feel the same way. I know that it'll take a leap of faith, but like you said earlier, you're always the one who's been willing to jump first, and that's something that I appreciate in you more than you will probably ever know. I'm thankful for having met you, and I am thankful that you've been willing to trust me - despite some of my actions or some of your fears to the contrary. You've been a great friend to me and I'll never, ever forget that, (WW), no matter what happens - good or bad
- between us. Thank you for being so patient - not only tonight (waiting hours for my response), but last night and every other night where I've been a royal pain in your [censored]. I know I'm not the easiest person to deal with at this point in my life, so thanks, and - WHATEVER! (=

Goodnight..."

Please note Pep's advice, above.

Are you counseling with one of the MB counselors?

I say yes, post it, but be ready to edit it out if there's any chance your wife will see it.

For that matter, if there's any chance your wife will see your prior posts in which you discuss tactics, edit those out as well. This is not being dishonest - it's war.

WAT

geez that hurts to read again...especially this part:

"as opposed to some who may pretend to care for you when they in fact just want attention, validation, sex, and/or something else from you - known or unbeknownst to themselves"

That's about me....she has painted a wonderful picture of me.

There is no way that he cares for her even a fraction as much as I do...even after she's hurt me like this.