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Ha ha! Yes 2Long you are right. But at least I didn't get drawn into an argument!


Me/BS = 28 WW =33 DD = 5 Found out about EA/PA = 4/07/06 WW moved to Virginia to be with OM = 8/21/06
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I would ask one question in front of the facilitator tomorrow regarding her "plan"

First...to start the negotiation ask WW to state the plan she discussed with you last night. Make sure you are not being tricked or baited. She may try to deny the entire conversation while her lawyer goes to court and ajourns the protective order for another week or two (essentially keeping the temp order in place and you OUT). Don't get angry...she's baiting and manipulating you. However, your attorney should either be there at the 1:30 protective order hearing with the directions I posted above to oppose it in full OR have a written faxed release of the Protection Order in hand. You can not trust them and neither should she. If you have to be there, skip the conference, call with car trouble and be in court. The meeting can be rescheduled and it's voluntary. The court IS way more important.

Okay. The question to be asked after she states last nights plan (and only if she includes the part about wanting the locked door to feel "safe") would be:

"what do you need to feel "safe" from. I assume this is only a precautionary concern as you know and she (the facilitatior) should know that I have never yelled, hit or otherwise EVER physically threatened you in any way, shape or manner before, isn't that true, honey?".

Though the meeting may be confidential, the facilitators impressions and fears MAY be admissable, especially to impeach WW's testimony if she later tries to make you out as an abuser. Having her acknowledge that you are not one in front of the facilitator will possibly, to some extent, close that avenue. It's worth a shot.

As we discussed a few moments ago. You should at least attempt to bargain, by a polite request in front of WW and facilitator, that phone calls to OM not be made in your presence nor DD's. As you stated to me personally, your WW is not willing to concede the phone calls in front of DD just yet and I say getting HOME is more important that that issue right now...BUT just maybe the facilitator will talk her into it. Again, worth a shot.

I'll also state this with trepidation. I don't want to say this cause I don't want you to say anything about it to WW just yet. This is one of those legal things you save, locked away in your brain until a binding hearing or deposition. But, in most states you may be entitled to a final custody order which precludes/restrains your WW from exposing your DD to OM. Ask your attorney, but I know some states, unless they get married, can keep the OP away for up to 1 year after the final divorce decree is entered. For now, you have her agreement and it will look bad for her if she does it. You have that security. But, after depositions, parent evaluators and the like, you may file a temporary restraing order versus OM which may likely be granted awaiting the final custody and/or divorce decree. Then the decree will handle thereafter. Just something to salivate over.

Good night, finally.

Mr. W


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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If the "abused" is not there, the PO is automatically canceled. Since the hearing is at 1:30, and our meeting with the mediator is at 1:30 it's going to be really hard for her to keep the PO, and be at the mediator at the same time! My lawyer has emailed WW's lawyer and is asking for confermation that no one will be at the court house tomorrow.

I think you should assume she'll choose to be at the court house. The stakes are much higher there.

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Okay, my take for what its worth....

DO NOT TRUST THE WW OR HER LAWYER re: the PO Hearing today. Have your lawyer call the Mediator and reschedule because you are REQUIRED to be in court to fight the PO your WW maliciously had placed on you. The Mediator will understand this and I am sure reschedule. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT miss court. With all the fight your WW put up last night I just have this vision of her leading you (yes, and maybe even her lawyer) to believe she is going to the Mediator's office so that you do, too. Then, she goes to court and your not there...well, I don't need to say anymore...

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Oh, and FWIW, my divorce decree specifically says that neither one of us can have a member of the opposite sex who is not related by blood or marriage stay under the same roof overnight if our DS is present.

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Hey BB...

Not sure if you read the post that I've quoted below, by my hubby, Mr. W, but I do know that in it he wanted your weigh in(as another atty) regarding his position...would you mind reading it and giving GF your opinion?

Thanks,

Mrs. W

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Mr. W, apparently WW's lawyer told mine that I was planning on just showing up at the door step with my bags tomorrow morning. My lawyer said this is the WRONG thing to do! I need to show that I am willing to work through mediation...let WW show that she's the problem, not me. If she doesn't let me back into the house through negotiations, then we fight.


I still vehemently disagree. There is NO BINDING mediation and negotiating taking place. Your WW is merely making demands from a superior position and she will maintain that position for as long as she can. She is NOT going to accept less than 50-50 custody. She is not going to "AGREE" to allow you back home. She is NOT going to be really reasonable. It just won't be feasible to her that she should accept less than 50-50. She thinks, in her fogged out head, that 50-50 is the most reasonable position in the world. She thinks she's entitled to primary. You just ain't gonna change her wayward mind. So what's to negotiate. In addition, your bottom line is "primary" custody. She gets every other weekend, a weeknight or two, and alternating holidays. That's your "reasonable" position and it's a BIG step down from WW should be instituitionalized and restrained from contact with daughter 100% of the time UNTIL she ends her affair.

Thus, I still say, move home AND show up for mediation and you'll still be fulfilling your attorneys desire to "show that GF is willing to work through mediation" but you'll be "mediating/negotiating" on a level playing field. Again, nothing you stated today should be used against you...you aren't painted into a corner just cause YOU negotiated today. It's inadmissable and irrelevant. You just went home when the court lifted or cancelled the restraining order.

(Addtionally, if the order gets lifted at a hearing be sure to advise your attorney NOT to voluntarily stay out of your home...she just may do this, WW's attorney may ask for it, while you guys "negotiate"...advise your council that that is unacceptable. Either you are RESTRAINED or you are NOT. Period. If WW's attorney asks the court to keep the order in place for just another week or two because you two are currently in negotiations or settlement discussions your attorney must object...they can't use the fact you went to negotiate against you.)

I understand your attorney's thinking completely. It's likely how I "would have" advised you before MB. Just go through the motions, trust the system...it's fair, it will all work out. But it is not fair. You already have seen "fairness" haven't you. You may even lose the Restraining Order hearing, is that fair...no.

Further, by NOT going home you are indicating you are OK with WW being with daughter, that you think DD is safe and secure with her, that she is NOT being harmed and essentially that your wife is currently a fit and able parent. She is not. Do you know how many WS's have car accidents during their affairs? Tons. My beloved wife totalled her car and got 3 traffic tickets within 3 months after not having a single ticket since her teenage years. Your wife's brain is OVERWHELMED with thoughts, emotions, strategies and OM. Your DD is not her priority, it's all about saving face, selfishness and maintaining her addiction. Your daughter is in a dangerous place right now and you must tell your lawyer that you respect her advice but that you HAVE to go home for your daughters sake immediately upon having such right. Work out the minimal consequences later...but, get home.

Mediators and judges are people. What person would deny you or hold against you the mere fact that when allowed...you went home? I surmise it's whats expected of you and they may consider you a fool for doing otherwise. It's your bed. It's your refrigerator, etc. Use your key and go home. BTW, if she changed the locks, break a window and enter anyway..it's your house. I'd prefer it if you could sneak in without breaking anything and merely unlocking the door. That way you just say it was unlocked and avoiding the term "breaking in" being used against you. But, it's still your home. Your name is on the deed. You can't be held accountable for breaking into your own home.

Again, if wife calls the cops and has you removed unjustifiably again...we/you can't control that. I don't need to tell you to avoid any fighting or arguing and giving her any justification for calling the cops on you. If she does it anyway, it only makes HER look worse in the long run. You control you and do EVERYTHING within your legal right to protect your daughter.

Instead of asking your lawyer whether you should or not, try asking when you are free to go home legally. Ultimately, it's your life and she works for you.

Please sleep on it. I'd also love to hear Brit/Brat's, MM's, UVA's and anyone else's take on this. I very much believe I am right, but I don't want ALL the responsibility. This is my take on things but I am certainly not delusional enough to fail to conceive of being mistaken. Some of this stuff IS a crapshoot and all options can backfire. I just think you're better off home.

Mr. W

p.s.- sorry, please understand that my passion is really heartfelt concern for you and your family. This weekend you really need to re-read your thread from the beginning. You may be in a better state of mind to take in some of the information you may have glossed over originally. You may also see how far your thinking has processed. There are likely many nuggets of information which you can apply as I feel somethings are being repeated to you often.


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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GF - just popping in to give moral support. I'm with Mr. W all the way and am looking forward to his assessment of BB's concern just above.

One thing you said a few pages back -
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Mr. W, I understand your stance. And I agree, but to be frank, I'm not sure that I can do it. I really don't think I can handle continuing to see WW talking to OM on the phone for hours at a time...
We all understand that. But one of the most valuable things I learned from the "experts" came from Frank Pittman's Private Lies - "don't take any of this personally."

Yep, that's hard to swallow, but it's very good advice. Your wife, believe it or not, is not out to hurt you. She's out to feed her dopamine addiction. When she talks on the phone to OM, she's not (obviously) thinking about you. She's not really thinking about OM. She's doing what pumps the dopamine. Just think about this a bit.

BB said -
Quote
Oh, and FWIW, my divorce decree specifically says that neither one of us can have a member of the opposite sex who is not related by blood or marriage stay under the same roof overnight if our DS is present.
So did mine. In fact, my separation agreement said that first. Something similar ought to be a no brainer for whatever mediated agreement you come up with.

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Don't have much time here, but I'm with Mr. W. In addition, as I said previously, I would also go to the PO Hearing today and reschedule the medation.

Regards,

BB

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I'm with Mr. W all the way and am looking forward to his assessment of BB's concern just above.


WAT...to ease your anticipation (lol), thought I'd quickly jump in and let you know I already stated the concern. (copied below). Brit\sBrat backed me up, expanded it and EMPHASIZED it.

Quote
My final post last night (excert):
.
"...She may try to deny the entire conversation while her lawyer goes to court and ajourns the protective order for another week or two (essentially keeping the temp order in place and you OUT). Don't get angry...she's baiting and manipulating you. However, your attorney should either be there at the 1:30 protective order hearing with the directions I posted above to oppose it in full OR have a written faxed release of the Protection Order in hand. You can not trust them and neither should she. If you have to be there, skip the conference, call with car trouble and be in court. The meeting can be rescheduled and it's voluntary. The court IS way more important...." - Mr. W



Did want to add. If you don't show up and WW and/or her attorney DOES. Protection/Restraining order will be granted and YOU just lost your entire case.

I hope we are just overreacting but this is a serious game and the ramnifications of trusting WW and her attorney would be enormous. Be careful. Make sure your attorney has that "Stipulation and/or Consent to withdraw/release Petition of Protective Order" in hand before you ignore the court hearing NO MATTER HOW CONFIDENT your attorney is. Get her assurances 5 times over before you believe her...it's your life, not hers. She messes up, she moves on, you and daughter pay the consequences.

Thanks for the backup all. I am not a litigator. I'm a paper jockeying, IRS code reading Tax Attorney.

Mr. W

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GF,

I think we have a concencus!

Good Luck at the COURT hearing today!

Stay Strong!


WTF *** Warning *** Make sure brain is engaged before shifting mouth out of Neutral.
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Thanks W - Time, as in amount of custody, is mentioned in the decree as 50/50 joint custody, but not in relation to the exemption. My son chose to spend more time with her because his school commute was easier - he could sleep a little longer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I chose not to attempt to force the issue as my son was old enough to make his own choices - turned 17 last August. My assumption was the Order ruled - just didn't know how the inappropriate claim would be discovered or reconciled. Perhaps I should make an allegation? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Or allow her to make more mistakes every other year?

WAT

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Threadjack...edited out.

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I'll also state this with trepidation. I don't want to say this cause I don't want you to say anything about it to WW just yet. This is one of those legal things you save, locked away in your brain until a binding hearing or deposition. But, in most states you may be entitled to a final custody order which precludes/restrains your WW from exposing your DD to OM. Ask your attorney, but I know some states, unless they get married, can keep the OP away for up to 1 year after the final divorce decree is entered. For now, you have her agreement and it will look bad for her if she does it. You have that security. But, after depositions, parent evaluators and the like, you may file a temporary restraing order versus OM which may likely be granted awaiting the final custody and/or divorce decree. Then the decree will handle thereafter. Just something to salivate over.

Mr. W

Mr. W. The parenting plan that I submitted with the LS paperwork states that neither one of us is to introduce DD to anyone we are dating until a minimum of six months after the final divorce decree, specifically Mr. OM.

It's already out there plain as day.


Me/BS = 28 WW =33 DD = 5 Found out about EA/PA = 4/07/06 WW moved to Virginia to be with OM = 8/21/06
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Cool. But still don't point that out to her outside the legal arena. Just cause you requested it doesn't mean she actually, in her fogged out head, believes you are entitled nor likely to get it.

Mr. W

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Ok, concerns noted, and I will be talking with my lawyer this morning, making sure that we have a plan to ensure the PO is not extended!

My lawyer did email WW's lawyer and asked for confirmation that NO ONE will be there to represent WW today. If he doesn't reply...I'll certainly be there, if he agree and then someone does show up...he have documented proof that they lied and are manipulating the system and situation.

But I need to make absolutely certain that there will be no one at the courthouse today, or I will be!


Me/BS = 28 WW =33 DD = 5 Found out about EA/PA = 4/07/06 WW moved to Virginia to be with OM = 8/21/06
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Ahh, the joys of having a wayward spouse....

She just called to ask me when my Reserve Weekend is. I told her it's the first weekend in May the 6th and 7th I think.

WW: ohh, darn it I thought so, well maybe your mom can come down here, or we can take DD up to her.

me: why?

ww: well I bought tickets and then just realized that it's probably your reserve weekend.

me: So you're flying to Virginia that weekend?

WW: yea

me: well we'll have to figure out someone to watch DD then. When did you buy the tickets?

WW: last night

me: well we'll figure something out. You are going to be at the mediator's right?

WW: Yes, I will be there, and my offer stands from last night, and no I'm not going to extend the PO.

me: ok, see you there.


Man this is one heck of an addiction! She despises my mom, but now she's willing to have our daughter stay with her for a weekend so she can fly off and get her fix.

Last edited by Good_Father; 04/27/06 10:12 AM.

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This is the declaration WW's lawyer sent to my lawyer...what is your take on this?

Come now the parties to this action by their respective attorneys in their marital dissolution action filed in the Pierce County Superior Court under cause # xxxxxxxx and advise the Court that the parties have agreed that Respondent will not move into the family home absent a written agreement or Court Order and the parties are commencing parenting and residential discussions with a counselor and any further need for restraining orders, if any, shall be addressed in the marital dissolution action.

This is what I responded to my lawyer...what do you think?

My concern is this...We enter this, and then all of a sudden her story changes again. There is no proposal from WW after the meeting with mediator, and now you've signed a court document on my behalf saying I won't move into the house.

I simply do not trust WW. She has repeatedly lied to me. I will not break a legal contract, or legally signed document, and she knows this. I am confident that she would have no problem filing this agreement, then not coming through on her end with the co-habitation proposal, because she's all of a sudden "uncomfortable with it" again.

What can we do to protect me from her changing her mind again?

If I'm wrong, and things do go the way they should, how long will the process take? I am moving out of my friends house today, he is moving starting tomorrow. Will I need to find another place to sleep for tonight, or can it all be done in time for me to move back where I belong?


Also, I told WW and mediator yesterday that I feel it's in DD's best interest for us to work through our problems and rebuild our family. I said that I think DD deserves to have a strong whole family, not a broken one.

It sounds to me that this document is basically stating that I will be kicked out again (or not allowed back in) if I don't start "commencing parenting and residential discussions with a counselor" today, which would be counter to what I believe is in ours, and DD's best interest.

What is your take on that sentence? Am I reading too much into it?

----------
Those are my concerns with what WW's lawyer sent. Am I being paranoid?


Me/BS = 28 WW =33 DD = 5 Found out about EA/PA = 4/07/06 WW moved to Virginia to be with OM = 8/21/06
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Ohh, Mrs. W, you used my DD's name in one of your posts a few pages back...do you mind editing it out please?

Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Me/BS = 28 WW =33 DD = 5 Found out about EA/PA = 4/07/06 WW moved to Virginia to be with OM = 8/21/06
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I think your analysis is dead on. In my opinion, the language proposed by WW's attorney is way too wishy-washy anf too easy for WW to use to her advantage. If it were me, I'd go to the PO Hearing (especially if WW thinks you are not) and get it dismissed. The PO was not part of your dissolution proceedings it was separate, wasnt' it?

Regards,

BB

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