[color:"blue"]Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

GF,

I have a few comments.

1. I think it is a good starting point for negotiation, but that is all it is. Many of the suggested terms are unacceptable, but WW is giving more in her opening move than I would normally expect, so that is a good sign. This suggests that she really wants to be with OM ASAP at all cost. Thus, you must use this fact (if true) as leverage in your negotiations with her.

2. Excepting some typos, I think Mr. W letter is a good one. It is important to documents these transactions as much as possible. And confirming negotiated points through e-mails is a great way to do that.

3. My most important point here is the following: be sure to have all the important points in writing and be sure to negotiate as much details as possible in your D or LS agreement.

To be honest, I am a little disappointed at you for believing that you can trust WW. Experience is your best guide here. And your recent experiences clearly show that you cannot trust WW and she only has her best interest in mind. The only reason you were allowed back into the house is so that she could be free to go see OM every weekend, it seems, without losing custody of DD. She does not care about what’s good for your or DD. Please keep this in mind as you negotiate with her.

Thus, to rely on her words that you can work out the details later as “adults” is absurd. As long as it’s in her perceived best interest to comply with you, she will. And when she deems this not to be case, she will jettison any verbal agreement she may have had with you to pursue her “interest”. You don’t want to be in that position. So forget what she claims she will or won’t do. Formalize all important points by having them written down in a agreement you reach with her.

Now, it is true you can be lax with the agreement and allow her to do things with DD that are not part or are contrary to the agreement. That is fine. You can informally compromise with her all you want, after the agreement is in place. You just don’t want to do it the other way around. That is, you don’t want have an informal agreement in place because you two “can work it out as ‘adults’” and leave the details to be worked out later. No! You have the details delineated now in a document, and work out informal compromises later on.

As long as the transaction cost is not too high, as is in this case, you want to have all contingencies work out in a contract to as much as extent as you possibly can.

4. You absolutely should not see OM right now or the near future, for that matter. Brokenbird is right on. OM is a scum. GF, the OM is screwing your wife and you are supposed to see him as a “nice guy”. As Mortar is fond of saying, if this were not so tragic, it would be funny. There is nothing for you to discuss with him.

I see that you want to continue trying to enlighten OM of the lies your WW has said about your M. Don’t waste your time. He does not care. And more importantly, he does not deserve your time. Not yet, anyway. I can if the divorce goes through and OM and WW end up together, there may be circumstances where you may have to discuss DD with him. But the time for this, if ever, is not now.

5. Under no circumstances should you agree to let you DD go to VA to see OM. GF, again, I see that you are being naïve by believing that if DD goes to VA, there is a possibility that she would be holed up in a hotel without contact with OM. Who would she be staying with, while WW is scumming with OM? And more to the point, why in the world would you believe WW that she would not be trying her best to have her hang out with OM. I hope you don’t believe that WW wants to bring DD to VA just so she can hang out with OM’s cousin kids.

The reason and only reason she wants to bring DD to VA is to normalize the relationship between DD and OM. This is not acceptable, and you should do everything in your power to forestall their interactions together.

Moreover, you want to make the relationship between WW and OM harder, not easier. If OM cannot have contact with DD for at least a year, that will put a strain in their relationship. Look, if WW is working in WA and she gets DD only on weekends, then for at least part of each month, she will have to choose to be either with OM or DD, if she cannot take DD with her to VA. This is a state of affairs she will not want to be in, but part of the consequences of her choices. If on the other hand, you make it easy for DD to see OM, you WW will not have to face this dilemma. Your job is to make hard as possible for their sleazy relationship.

In any email you do send try NOT to use the word "settlement" or "offer". You do not want the email excluded from evidence based upon some objection that is was part of settlement negotiations.

Based upon the fact you do not necessarily have the resources for a long drawn out battle for custody I think going ahead with this "deal" will be OK for you as long as the language regarding OM can be hammered out. In the worse/worst case even the "flexibility" of the agreement will probably work out because she'd have a difficult time getting custody AFTER giving you primary custody and the house when you do end up fighting for more definitive terms down the road (and you likely will have to). Further, you may be in a better position financially to incur a protracted custody battle. Thus the wishy-washyness of the agreement can be ignored when the real battle is to keep OM out of your life and your DD's life for now. What's nice too is you'll likely be in the position to bust her violating the OM restriction anyway which will help you win primary custody later should that battle happen.

The validity of any agreement is only as good as the integrity of the parties involved. I highly doubt she'll live up to her end of the agreement which you must be prepared to document and use against her when the "custody" arrangement is revisited.

One fear I have is OM moving to Washington and setting up residence in a nice school system. They get married and then "revisit" the custody issue with what they believe is the upper hand. A nicer home, a mom and a step-dad. You must keep up your documentation as she continues to ignore and neglect your daughter to be with OM. You likely have to do this for YEARS.

Mr. Wondering

1) Tell WW that you have NO interest in meeting your wife's boyfriend - not now and not ever.

2) As far as all these arrangements she wants to make about DD for trips, visitation, etc. - it's all blah, blah, blah. Please tell me how on earth you can verify, or enforce, ANY of it. If you can. I'm waiting.

WW is trying desperately to normalize her affair to make it seem nice and respectable and she is using your DD to do this. And it's working pretty well on you, isn't it?

Please stop helping her with the destruction of your family, because that's what you're doing every time you start cooperating with her and her boyfriend. You are not "protecting" DD by being a nice guy. You are throwing your daughter to the wolves - to the scum. Don't ever forget this.

Make WW deal with your lawyer if she wants visitation agreements - not with you.

JMHO
Mulan

Thanks for the advice guys. We are in the very early stages, and I have not agreed to anything yet. I wanted everyone's input here before I made any commitment...verbally or written.

I will not accept anything "verbally" from WW. I can not trust her. Everything she has said sounds...ok (except for the OM stuff), but I will not place any bets on it until it is in writing.

As far as the fear of him moving out here into a nice school system. No fear there, that's why I wanted to keep DD in the house...we live in the best school district in the state. It was declared the best school district in the country several years ago.

The plan is for us to work out all the details with a lawyer(s) and have it all down on paper.

Like I said before, I am not going to assume anything as truth until I see it on a legally signed document. And I have been keeping my journal up to date.

Sorry Mulan, somehow I missed your post.

I've already stated that I feel no need to meet OM. I've made it clear that I think it would be a waste of time and energy on both of our parts. I think he's scum, and he's so fogged out with my WW that he won't give two Sh*t's what I have to say.

I am not allowing her to "normalize" her affair. She is still not allowed to speak his name, or even speak about him in DD's presence.

I told her tonight that I don't think that DD should be introduced to OM, until AFTER the D is final, and their relationship is secure. Obviously my WW is going to have some visitation rights, and if they do get married, I won't be legally able to keep DD from ever meeting him.

I am not helping my WW destroy our family...she doesn't need it, she's doing a darn good job all by herself. But I am strongly considering her "proposal" because it will put me in a position to protect DD when we do separate or D.

Again, I really appreciate your comments everyone, they help keep me in line and away from getting back into "appeasing" WW.

Are you doing any documentation by email of the current negotiations??? If it all breaksdown you'll at least have some good incriminating emails for court. Your journaling is good but nothing compares to having a "sent" emails and possibly harmful to her position email responses in your legal file. Even if the real fight isn't now but in 6 months or a year when WW clears her head and tries to take her back, having this stuff in your file will prevent her from fabricating her side of the story.

Keep the emails short and to the point (except if using distracting language). Reread what I said before and use the example as a starting point if you like after my paralegal, UVA, corrects the spelling errors...lol. (sorry, I saw them this morning just didn't have time or patients to fix it after I posted it).

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I know it's patience, not patients...just like I know it's wave and not waive above. There were many more than that but I really did have to run. Sorry again.

p.p.s. - Hey UVA, don't know if you saw it but Longhorn and I have developed a Newbie Thread on the Just Found Out Board. It was recently "pinned" to the top of the board and I think the awesome Outline/Quickstart Guide post you did near the beginning of this thread would be a helpful addition to it. Love to have your input there.

Mr. W,

I reposted my post to GF on the Just Found Forum just now. I did not see that thread you and LH started as I stopped going to the Just Found Out Forum because I was getting depressed every time I went there, seeing how people keep getting hurt by infidelity. I know it’s the same on GQII, but because there are also a lot of old threads here, the sitches here do not remind as much that everyday someone new somewhere is suffering because of infidelity.


You had me cracking up for a long time this morning with this. Very good! I owe you one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm trying to get her to email me the "proposal", and we'll use it as a baseline to work out an agreement that we can both be comfortable with.

Update-She has stopped being so cold and distant. Likely it's just because she wants to make this deal, and not because she's warming up to me again, but at least it provides us the capability to spend time together.

We spent about 4 hours talking just the two of us on Saturday night. She didn't call or email OM at all until after I went to sleep. Before that night, talking to me was something she only did if OM couldn't be on the phone for some reason.

And then last night we talked again for another hour or so. In-fact, OM got really PO'd Sunday because of something WW said. Of course they are over it now, but another hiccup for them, and things are going ok for WW and me.

She's actually commented a couple of times how nice the last few days have been. So maybe I'm starting to get the hang of plan A...I hope.

Also, now she wants to leave a day early to go see him, because is sister is in town or something, so she can see her too. Wierd...she's meeting his family and everything.

Expose 2 them, if you haven't already

-ol' 2long

So I've got a parent/teacher confrenece for DD5 this afternoon.

WW chose to go back to VA, and left yesterday. She seemed upset that she's not going to be able to attend the confrence and said that she would have liked it for both of us to be there.

So here's my question. Since I'm in plan A right now, do I do the nice thing and call her with an offer to confrence with the teacher and I over speaker phone? Or do I let her suffer the consequence of deciding to leave?

Thanks for any input!

GF, you are being WAYYYYYYYYY too nice. Let her suffer the consequences of putting her adultery and meeting OM's sister over her daughter. Also, make sure you note this in your journal - assuming her ticket was a non-refundablt, it would have only cost her a $75 change fee in order for her to be at this conference, but she wasn't willing to put her own selfish needs above your D's. ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Regards,

BB

She made her choice. Let her accept the consequences. Do not teleconference her in. She'll only use the event later to justify her bad behavior. "See, it really didn't hurt my child - I was still involved, etc." Barf.

Heck no, you don't arrange that. Why would you want to shield your WW from a consequence of her adultery? She made her choice; she must live with it. Journal it, pardner.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I just didn't know how far I should go with plan A.

I understand that I want to make her feel the consequences of her actions, but I want her and DD to know that I won't try to come between them.

It's a balancing act <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

She's upset at a decision she made.

Allow me to digress for a moment.

NOT FAIR!!!

That was my #2 son's favorite expression when something didn't go his way. A lot of things didn't go his way. He's no longer with us.

It burns me up when a WS parent puts their selfish agenda ahead of their child. Everytime I read something like this I want to shake them and make them listen to what losing a child feels like. What they're doing is NOT FAIR!

GF - make sure you document this.

WAT

But you cannot nor should not try to cover for your wife's irresponsible actions that may ultimately undermine her relationship with her daughter.

It's not your responsibility to ensure they have a good relationship. This is an impossible task for you to assume.

WAT

Ok, well I followed your advice and did not call her to have her on speaker phone for the parent/teacher confrence.

I feel bad about it though. I feel like I should have been the better person and given her the opportunity that she didn't take herself.

I'm going to believe you all that it was the right thing to do, and I'll deal with my guilt.

The good thing is my little girl is a genius! There are no areas of improvement for her, and her teacher thinks she is more than ready for kindergarten <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PROUD FATHER HERE!!!!

GF...

GOOD FOR YOUR DAUGHTER...YAY!!!

Now for the 2 x 4...Are you outta yer freakin' mind kid? NO, NO, NO you don't feel guilty that you didn't ENABLE WW's shoddy behavior by trying to normalize and legitimize her sleazy, slimy adulterous lifestyle...NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, etc. SHIELD A WS FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS!!! You may think that coming here and saying that makes you appear to be a sweet, loving, altruistic guy, but my friend that is NOT what it communicates at all...Instead it says, and warning, this is harsh, but it is the truth, it says I AM A WIMP, and am being PLAYED by my WW!!! GF, you are NOT a wimp, so don't act like one, K? It's not your responsibility to break the enemy's fall...Guilt is a wasteful emotion...do NOT allow yourself to be motivated or manipulated by it...

Mrs. W

Thanks for the 2X4 Mrs. W. You are right, it does make me sound like a wimp...and I am.

But I tell myself that I need to do what is right, for DD's sake. And if doing what is right is not protecting WW from her mistakes, then that is what I'm going to do.

I still love WW, and it's still my love that compels me to want to protect her...that is where the guilt is coming from.

Again, you are right; and thanks.