Hum--<BR>I kickbox...I've often thought of the OM...it feels GREAT!!! I don't know where you live in Jersey, but I can recommend a place I used to go to when I lived there.<P>I think I'm going to box up everything the OM gave me...a photo of him and his daughter, a stuffed animal, photos from a white water rafting trip we went on together, photos from a business trip in Lake Tahoe...and dispose of them somehow!!! Maybe I'll have some sort of ceremony for myself and pray that in disposing these items I will no longer feel love for the OM.<P>He said he basically has a shrine at his office of things from me...I'm hope that he's gotten rid of them at this point!<P>I'm sorry about all the extra hurt that's going on between you and the OM...I know how much it hurts to hear that the OM is sticking around just for his child. It makes you want to keep fighting for him. It would be much easier if he said he was staying for his wife because he loves her.<P>Have a good weekend!! I'm going to Jersey tonight for a wedding this weekend...yeah, I miss my friends soooo much!!!

FHL & Holly,<P>Thanks! You guys have a great weekend too! I'll be busy this weekend with relatives visiting so that always helps.<P>I know this forum is a great escape and think I would of lost already if it wasn't for you guys! I know bad words are * out, so just in case you see a thread from me with all ***** you know I'm having a really bad day!<P>I'll seriously consider joining a place, kickboxing sounds like alot of fun and great exercise! I need a release so bad!<P>Holly: have a great time at the wedding, it's going to be a beautiful this weekend. I love the Fall, it's my favorite time of year, my wedding anniversary is actually October 12th and my B-day October 16th!

D&C<P>My husband is off hunting until 7:00PM tonight and what am I doing reading letters I saved from OM!<P>I just read one from the time I broke up with him last Thanksgiving. He writes to me:<P>"Sunshine, I have much to be thankful for, the year with my true love, my real true love, you. Even if we go our separate ways and never say I Love You again I just have comfort and feel whole knowing that you loved me, it was real and that we will always share that love in our hearts. I have never truly "heard" songs on the radio or "read" words in a card until I fell in love with you. Sunshine you have really touched me in many, many ways. The feelings in my heart and memories in my mind will remain forever. Whatever you do Sunshine, I hope you are happy, I know that whoever you are with and know matter what you will be doing you will make many people very happy because I know you. You brighten the day for all you know and you will always keep my heart warm with that ember which will burn for eternity. That ember will always be and will never forget, it will stay for it has planted there through a one way door with no exit. It will stay with beautiful memories and feelings awaiting for the one who holds the key to allow it to live again. Sunshine, my love will never leave, always and forever, truly, madly deeply, I love you."<P>Dazed I have enough for one of your novels, do you think it has potential for a hit seller?! This is what I got for 2 years everytime I tried to end it with him. <P>I never thought a man could write such beautiful things. I really thought he loved me so much.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 02, 1999).]

I think it's maudlin crap, but then I am not a "romantic", I am a cynic.<P>It's clear to me that this guy is a master manipulator. Sounds like he read every Hallmark card at the drugstore and then wrote it all down. Sorry if that sounds brutal, but there we are.<P>Hum, why are you putting yourself through this. If you're serious about getting over this, burn all this stuff, throw it away, feed it to the dog, but don't keep it, and for God's sake don't read it!<P>Whatever happens with your H, OM is just yanking your chain. Don't help him.

Dopamine rushes through the brain which makes us feel good, norepinephrine flows through the brain stimulating production of adrenaline (pounding heart), phenylethylamine (found in chocolate) creating a feeling of bliss.<BR>These chemicals sometimes override brain activity that governs logical thinking. These chemicals also play a role in the limbic system which canaffect emotion. Some sources say when a shift in the balance of brain power occurs, the limbic system takes over allowing less integration with the cortex causing infatuation.<P> Irrational romantic sentiments are thought to be caused by oxytocin, a<BR> primary sexual arousal hormone that signals orgasm and feelings of emotional<BR> attachment. As you become increasingly aroused more oxytocin is produced.<BR> Women may be more capable of having multiple or whole-body orgasms as a result of oxytocin overload. Depletion of the overload can result in experiencing true love or disillusionment.<BR>Are Commitment Phobics really just attraction<BR>Junkies? When a person falls in love, he may experience flushed skin, heavy breathing, and sweaty palms, due to the rush of dopamine, norepinephrine and phenylethylamine, chemical cousins of amphetamines. The body builds up<BR>tolerance to these chemicals and it then takes more of the substance to get that special feeling of infatuation. People who jump from relationship to relationship crave the intoxication of falling in love and may be "attraction junkies". In the case of enduring romances, the continued presence of a partner stimulates production of endorphins which are soothing substances and natural pain-killers.<BR>Too much stress can lead to permanently low levels of serotonin and high levels of norepinephrine . Low levels of serotonin can create aggression. Serotonin usually acts as an inhibitor. Low levels make it hard to get a grip. Prozac (fluoxetines) is used to increase levels of serotonin.Emotions play an important role when learning and memory circuits are being established. The strength of the synaptic connection that is formed when a memory is created is directly connected to the strength of the emotions at the time. This is why trivial events are easily forgotten and why emotional patterns are hard to change. During adulthood the neural connections continue to change more slowly and less frequently. Instead of new pathways being formed, the existing pathways are reshaped. Unused circuits can be reactivated because they fade but do not disappear. Old habits can be changed by repetition of new ones that will reshape or alter the old path. Cognitive therapy is a method by which this can be accomplished.<P>Maybe this will help. I read this online.<P><BR>

I never thought of my H as much of a romantic, but I found out recently that he really likes the movie Sleepless in Seattle. He even has the soundtrack (I don't remember there being music in that movie, but I guess there must have been). When you think about that plot - woman about to settle for boring fiance, impulsively contacts man she knows virtually nothing about, falls in love, and the audience is led to believe lives happily ever after - I have to wonder if there is some relationship between this and his affair. His other favorite movies are things like Lethal Weapon - hardly romantic fare.

Ladies,<P>Wake up and look at yourselves! <P>I think this thread is demonstrating exactly why men look at us as though we are emotion-driven "sacks of flesh." We can't be reasoned with when our emotions have such a hold on our daily lives, and we go over the edge in blaming others (in this case the OM) for what we do based entirely on our emotions.<P>It's a bunch of cr*p to say the OM was a manipulator by telling us sweet, romantic things that our husbands now can't find the nerve or desire to say. If we look back and be honest with ourselves, our husbands did the same wining and dining to snag each one of us. Our husbands romanced us to the point of feeling (and I emphasize "FEELING") like we were all princesses. In layman's terms, that's called the courtship process. <P>If you don't remember it or don't believe it ever happened, I would say you are either lying to yourself or are blocking it out. I don't know of any other woman who has just married a guy because she loved his logical mind and that was it. Don't blame the other man for doing what is natural during the courtship process. It's the way things are done in love. If you choose to be totally honest with yourselves, the OM is no more of a manipulator than our husbands were during the courtship. We, the emotion-driven ones, are just as "swept off our feet" by it now with the OM as we were with our husbands.<P>So, let's be real here and stop blaming the OM. If truth be told, we women hold the patent on manipulation. We are even doing it here by playing the poor manipulated victims. You will see it if you take a moment to step back and look honestly at the situation.<P>Sorry for being so blunt, but I'm tired of women reinforcing an "all emotion, no brain" stereotype in relationships.<P>

BB, I agree with you up to a point, though I disagree that we hold a patent on maniuplation...we just do it differently.<P>I still maintain that Hum's OM is manipulative, because after HE dumped HER, he insists on pursuing her by telling her what they had was so special, blah blah, wanting to be friends, not respecting her admonition to leave her alone, threatening to tell their boss about the affair.<P>He dumped her to work on his own marriage, yet won't give her the space she needs to work on his...and now he wants to be "friends."<P>I'd say that's manipulative, wouldn't you?<P>Of course Hum is not a victim, any more than my H is a victim because PSBFH bats her eyes at him. We are all humans who make choices. When I was faced with a choice similar to H's, or to Hum's, I changed jobs before the situation could escalate. Doesn't make me any better than they are, just perhaps a bit stronger.<P>No, Hum is not some bodice-ripped romance heroine who was swept off her feet by some Mel Gibson lookalike. She clearly made some conscious decisions. But still, what her OM is doing NOW...not then, but NOW, does qualify as manipulative, IMVHO.

D&C,<P>I agree with you that the OM is manipulating Hum to maintain contact with her now. He obviously does so because he loves her, but cannot commit to her now. It is a natural way for any normal person to act when they love one person very much, but cannot deal with breaking away from the responsibility for their current mate and kids. <P>Sure, Hum's OM is going to have to decide what he really wants and commit to it. If he cannot reconcile himself to leaving his wife and child, he is going to have to cut off totally from Hum. By Hum's description, she still seems to be available if the OM would decide to commit to her. The problem is that her OM wants to keep both his family and her. That's where he is not being realistic, unless he believes that Hum would be willing to be more like a mistress. Not likely.<P>I still stand by everything else that was in my post. Especially, earlier in this thread, the discussion was about the love relationship prior to their breakup, not afterward when Hum tried to go on with her life. <P>I also maintain that the female betrayers that post on this site (not only on this thread), by and large, focus on the fantasy element in the same way as a defendent in a murder case pleads temporary insanity. That's pure emotion, plain and simple. There is no thought or logic. Yes, there is much "agonizing" and confessing that these ladies profess for what they did, but they blame it on the fantasy or some chemical imbalance. And why do they fall into this fantasy? Some OM purportedly seduces them with words that they want to hear. It's a way to claim to take responsibility for "betraying" but at the same time to lay the real blame on somebody else. They might as well come out and say, "Poor helpless me," and sigh.<P>True, these ladies are adults who are making decisions. But these decisions are based entirely on emotion. To use the "fantasy" defense is their admission that what I'm saying is true. Ask other women and men, as I have done, to read a sampling of postings on this site. You will find unanimous agreement on this. Don't be surprised that the word "pathetic" is used especially by other women to describe the "fantasy" defense.<P>I don't say these things to be cruel. It just helps to look outside ourselves and our little world to see how we are actually seen by those who are thinking rationally at the time. I know it helped me to be shaken at one point to snap out of my affair.