LA -


Here you go (feedback appreciated):

-------------------------------------------------------
Dear MP,

I am sorry for the tones and words I used in our conversation last night. I truly do want you to feel safe and comfortable in voicing your thoughts, feelings and opinions to me, even when I might disagree with them or they might hurt.

I did not maintain that safe environment for you last night. Instead, I got defensive and upset, and responded in a non-loving and non-caring way.

I hope you will continue to share your thoughts and feelings with me. I will continue to work on providing you a safe and caring environment to do so.

Love,

BB

Bird,

My fingers are itching to revise it, and I fear, that's disrespectful of me.

Lemme think a minute. Please?

LA

Intention...EXCELLENT advise...Hungry for safety, Angry for being judged, Lonely to be understood, Tired for believing what is will always be. Am I getting it yet? See, you can't feed, calm, stop loneliness or energize a spouse. You don't control that. What you can be is safe, accepting, an enjoyable companion and seeing today different than any other--full of change and hope. Then share it.

LA

Okay, this isn't what I want you to say, but read this and tell me if yours has the same spirit (intention) behind it.

"Dear MP,

With my words last night, I let you and myself down. I do believe I'm changing--not as fast as I want to and I ask you to choose to believe me. I want to be safe for you and for me, to share myself with you and the honor you give me when you choose to do the same.

Because I'm new to this, I fear being hurt by what I know is yours alone...your thoughts, feelings and beliefs. In my mind I know I'm not causing them, but my heart is lagging a little. I'll get there. Changing is too important for me not to get there.

I did not maintain that safe environment for you last night. Instead, I got defensive, felt attacked. I responded in a way that does not show my love and concern for you or me. I disrespected you. My old way. When I finally get that I can't cause you to think, feel or believe anything, and strive first to understand, them be understood, I know I will be safe and respectful. I want to with all my heart.

Love,

BB

Here's what I wrote that I cut..."I know I'm not disagreeing with your feelings--they're yours! And I know if I feel differently from you, then I just do. No conflict. We aren't the same person. That's why I married you!"

Sounded corney, but the spirit is true. Here I am, writing as you, to you. It ain't easy, BB.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In your corner,

LA

LA - you took the HALT acronym in a different direction than I did, but you are right on. I cannot change my spouse, but I can change me. I cannot change my spouse, but I can establish the conditions that are conducive to her wellbeing. "I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me" - U2.

Wow..shades of old me cropping up all over the place. So much for my self-recovery <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

No, what I said is not really a truth. It's a pessimistic attitude I've developed over the last few years due to a number of less than happy things that have occurred in my life that I didn't deal with very well (if at all). Actually, it's a variation on a theme for me - the previous version being "If I don't expect anything, I won't be disappointed when I get nothing." Different lyrics, same beat. Good catch, LA.


Hmm....Not sure. I believe I need hope to continue (or at least it's not necessarily a bad thing to have), but it seems I keep turning hope into expectation.


Ow. That one stung <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And no, that didn't work for me at all. I think I'm beginning to see where my hope turns into expectation (real or implied). I do this, and I hope to get something in return, but don't expect it - in reality, I'm saying I do this and feel I deserve something in return. Call it hope, but in reality it's an expectation. And off we go down the road of manipulation.

Lesson (for me)? Hope doesn't become expecation - expectation masquerades as hope.


Not quite following you on this one. Looking at your question through the lense of what I just wrote above, however, the answer would be yes. Why? Because I love my wife and I want this marriage and family. My choice. Plain and simple. No strings. No expectations. Boundaries, yes - but no strings. Subtle but important difference, yes?


Ouch again. Another sting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And again you nailed it right on the head. The path I chose was abuse - I can see it clearly now.


You have no idea how much light you shed on my own actions and motives in this post, LA. Your insights amaze me, and your willigness to share them are a blessing for me and many others. Thank you again for your time and posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OM is not local. She did give me a NC letter that I sent last month (was returned unopened). OM has, to the best of my knowledge, not initiated contact since early this year. Last known contact (intiated by MP) was over 2 weeks ago. I don't know if there's been contact since.

She states that the A is over, even though she has struggled with a desire to run off and be with OM. I do believe that she's reluctant to face what she's done (not excusing my actions here), and that's normal. I didn't want to face some of what I had done either at first.

And she is in no way defective, in my opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I know that you were simply stating some of the feeligns she will have to deal with, but wanted to clarify my view of my wife). She made a bad choice, yes - but everyone makes bad choices.


One step forward, 30 steps back. I do spend a lot of time worrying about making the same mistakes over again, because it just adds that much more crap that I have to shovel off. But yes - the whole way I handled that conversation was a giant DJ, and showed the old me all over again. Closed minded and impossible to talk to. Sigh.


Owwwwwwwwwww! That one really stung <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I told MP last night (after I gave her my apology note, and she even said "Aplogy accepted" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), that I realized something.

I've spent the last 3-4 months being very conscious of AOs - one of my big LBs. I've tried to not get angry and yell or shout. I've been pretty successful at it too.

But that's only part of the equation. I totally missed an even more important part - attitude. It's not just the volume we speak at. I need to do more than control my volume - I need to completely re-adjust my attitude.

That's a huge realization for me. One of those "Well, duh, you idiot!" moments. Thanks for pointing it out. I don't think I would have ever got it on my own.


How was it a DJ to me?

Wow...a lot of good (I think) came out of that really bad conversation from two nights ago. I spent most of yesterday (until I posted) in a funk, PO'd at my wife - and all the while the problem was really me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I made it sound like it was all about her, when in reality it was all about me. Trying to control her actions and choices.

Something I learned early on in a thread with Mortarman and ForeverHers was that I need to stop trying to fit God's plan and timing for this situation into my personal plan and timing. I can now add to that the following - I need to stop trying to fit MP's personal recovery into my time and plan. Her recovery is hers - it has to run on her schedule and her plan. Mine is mine. Our marriage recovery is ours.

Three paths - one goal. Her recovery, my recovery, our recovery. Separate but together.

I should add that one of the things she said the other night was that she hopes for something better. I asked her with someone else, or with me. Her answer - something better with us. Even in the midst of pain and confusion, I see positive things to grab on to and run with.

Yes, I believe you caught the spirit of what I wrote. I gave her the note I wrote (as posted) last night.

My original one (which I threw away after your first post yesterday) was all wrong. I was apologizing, but still being defensive. So I really wanted to make the apology note as neutral as possible, and not try to defend myself in any fashion.


I had something similiar in my first or second draft. I pulled it out since, while it was honest, didn't seem to keep with the overall tone of what I was trying to convey.

You channel me quite well, LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

intention -

Thanks for the HALT acronym (and link). It's definately a helpful thing to keep in mind. And LA's additions (as usual) helped even more.

I caught up on your thread. I hope things are progressing well for you.

Thanks Bird. I haven't updated my thread in a while, but will do so today. I have been learning so much from LA on this thread. What a blessing!

Bird,

I'm going to quote you something from LostHusband

"Expectations are premeditated resentments."

Now, I'm going to tell you I'm quoting you whenever you read me say this:

"Lesson (for me)? Hope doesn't become expecation - expectation masquerades as hope."

Terrific! Not just getting it but saying it so superbly.

You do have a penchant for self-bashing, like when you said, "so much for my self-recovery" with an unhappy face.

If we don't change for ourselves, this happens. We get half of it and remain imbalanced and wonder why.

We do better, act better and wonder why we don't feel better. We don't believe better. Change your beliefs and deny yourself permission to do to you what you do not allow yourself to do to others. Tweaking, not starting over.

"I do spend a lot of time worrying about making the same mistakes over again, because it just adds that much more crap that I have to shovel off." This will stop when you begin not DJing yourself. I promise.

We all slip...not 30 steps backward. Just feels like it. My H & I say aloud..."this feels old" or "I'm feeling old" and we stop and look at our actions and thoughts, and find the reference. Believe it or not, sometimes, it can be wonderful old, not ugly old. We're being surprised...been used to knocking over more old rocks and the slime beneath it shrivels in the exposure.

Do you allow yourself to be impatient with others?
The do not allow yourself to be impatient with yourself.

"And she is in no way defective, in my opinion" Oh, I know that from your view...her view may be very different. I urge you to allow her her view. Your fixer/abuser nature (from wanting to fix people, not things) is nearly compulsive. Mine was. I mean herself from her view. I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Or you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Never know what you can uncover when you're willing to dig, Bird, in yourself. Privilege for me to be on your journey at all.

In reading the rest of your post and the next one, I think you're replacing your beliefs this time, through crystallization. Not taking one belief and knocking the other one off, but the idea of replacing and with what, that big picture kind, has been brewing in the back of your mind awhile. An igneous process.

Different and workable. Just like you. Hang in there, kiddo. And do me a favor, save the "Ouch!" for when I DJ you...hard to read. I felt like a monster again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA -

Glad you liked the lesson I learned. It's something that I try to keep in the forefront of my mind.


Alas, I do. My wife has even pointed this out to me previously, even post D-Day. Back in February she told me that I had apologized and acknowledged my actions enough and needed to stop going over it. (It was said in a loving way.)

Even in our last MC session the pastor cautioned me to not beat myself up over the mistakes I make going forward, but to simply pick myself up again and keep on going. Self-condemnation, is what he referred to it as.


This is so key. My motivation for changing has undergone an evolution of sorts over the last few months. Right after D-Day (actually, just prior to it) I realized that I needed to make changes or I would lose my marriage. I did not want to lose my marriage, for many reasons.

That gradually changed into realizing that there were things about me that I did not like, so I needed to change so I would like myself better.

Now I'm working on changing to become the man that God calls me to be, because I want to serve Him as I should have been. Still working on that one.


How do I DJ myself? If I call myself on an action that I know is wrong, how is that a DJ? I'm simply calling a spade a spade. Or am I missing the point somewhere?


I am the most impatient person I know. I have the patience of a 2 year old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There have been people who know what's going on that think I'm a very patient person. Alas, I'm only appearing to be patient because the situation requires it of me. Inside, I'm chomping at the bit.

I try (with varying degrees of success) to hold myself to at least the same standards I hold others, if not higher. So my impatience with myself is part and parcel of who I am. Change takes time, but since, within the very narrow focus of myself, the change is within my control, I don't see why I can't just simply get off my butt and flip a switch.


It's a privilege to have you helping me on this journey. You have been extremely helpful to me, and have enabled me to see things from a perspective that I'm not sure I would ever have reached on my own.


Sorry. It was a good ouch - as in "Whoa....you're right. I did screw that up." You're definately not a monster <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The posts you gave me after my vent about the discussion/argument with MP set me on a whole new, better path.

So what has happened with me in the last couple of weeks? A lot, I think.

First, a few weekends back I was at home with just DD. DS was out with a friend, and MP was babysitting another couple we're friends with kids so they could get out on a date. While I was playing catch with DD (she has an amazing arm - speed and accuracy - for an almost 4 year old, and has been able to dribble a basketball since she was 3), I realized that if came down to just me and DD, I was OK with that. It is most definately not what I want - I cannot stress that enough - but I can survive it.

This little realization was a watershed for me, I think. It freed me from the desparation I had been fighting. That same desparation that MP was undoubtedly sensing from me, even if I wasn't showing it overtly. That freedom has stabilized me, some, and now I can focus on becoming the man God calls me to be, so MP will have the husband she deserves and wants.

As I said above, I got a lot of good out of your responses to my vent after MP and I's disagreement. It totally reset my views. Things have been, overall, quite good since then. The day after this thread started, I got my annual performance review at work. I did not expect anything great, but I didn't expect to get a bad review with no raise. It was very frustrating, since I've been with this company 6 years and seen only 2 raises (that didn't add up to much) - and the lack of raises hasn't always been tied to my performance.

So I ended the day we started this thread quite happy, and was at the bottom the next day (performance review). I really wanted to talk to MP about it that night, but she had a long day (work followed by a 3 hour class) and was fast asleep when I got our DD down for the night.

Taking what I had learned off this thread, I did my best to not be upset or bitter. I just let it go - if she wanted to talk about with me, she would; I wasn't going to push or expect.

The next morning we were getting ready to start our day, and she came up to me, sat down next to me, and told me she had read my review and had wanted to talk about it but fell asleep. She shared my frustration with the review, talked about some options. In a nutshell - she was there for me. That just set my day off to a great start. I thanked her that weekend for it - it meant (and still means) soooo much to me.

So things progress. Our new MC (the associate pastor at our old church) has, in both of our opinons, done more for us in 3 sessions than our old counselor did in 4 months. That's not necessarily a slam against the old counselor, just an acknowledgement that he wasn't a good fit for us. Our current counselor doesn't pull punches, but he just has a nature about him that lets us open up. I think it helps that he's known us since shortly after we started dating, and he himself is married in a blended family (our DS is my step-son, technically, though I dislike that term).

Realizing that both of us have our own recoveries to go through, on our own schedules, helped me. One of the things MP brought up in our last MC was that she was feeling forced to do things that she wasn't ready to do yet (she didn't specify, but if I were to guess I'd say things like be a loving wife, commit to the marriage, NC, etc).

Is she committed to the marriage yet? Only she can say for sure. I do believe she's leaning that way, more and more as time goes on. She's still home, she's still involved with the family, we're still doing things together, we're still in MC.

Is NC firmly in place? I don't believe so. Last known contact was about 2 weeks ago, though part of me suspects there's been more recent contact. That's her issue to handle, and I do believe she is working on it. My reaction is mine to own. I choose to extend trust to her on this - yes, it's a risk. But compliance with my boundaries by demand or force is not compliance at all. And for her to earn my trust back, I have to give her opportunities to do so.

I have up and down days. My new IC recommended I try St John's Wart as an AD, since I have a very strong personal aversion (for a lot of reasons) to using perscription ADs. It seems to help me - I was down a bit recently, and MP asked me if I was still taking SJW, and I said actually, not as regularly as I had. I am again taking it regularly.

Patience is the key. Consistancy is the key. As MP said in our last MC session - "I'm just watching." There you have it - she's just watching. To see what I will do - will I really change? Will I become and stay the man she wants and desires? Funny...I just thought of this. All I want is a chance for us to recover. She's giving me that chance - but I have to earn the reward.

Obligatory caveat here - nothing I've said should be taken to mean that I justify her affair in any way. But want to know something funny?

After the infamous debacle of the "Why can't you see that I've changed?" discussion, and the reset of my views....the anger, pain, bitterness and hurt of the affair and related/subsequent actions? It's gone. Not completely, but it is so much not first and foremost on my mind, like it was.

Rather lengthy post here. In a nutshell, I'm feeling up a lot more these last couple of weeks than I have in a long time. I'm doing my best to release MP from my expectations, and focus on my actions. We have a long road ahead of us, but I think I'm beginning to chart a much better course than previously.

As I said at MC, the goal I'm working towards is to start each day asking "What can I do today to make MP happy, or her life easier, or just simply serve her?" rather than "Why won't my wife do anything for me or do what I want or whatever?"

Seeing your self-DJs...

General self-butt kickin' are DJs..."I shoulda/woulda/coulda" stuff that then gives you license to do that to others. What they shoulda done, etc. Nonononono.

"I do spend a lot of time worrying about making the same mistakes over again, because it just adds that much more crap that I have to shovel off." This will stop when you begin not DJing yourself. I promise.

Choose your perspective: I am completely human...I have my limits, make my mistakes...my expectations are too high and I resent myself for not meeting them; therefore, I do that with others. I will look to how reasonable or unreasonable my self-expectations are and see if I'm exceeding my human speed limit. I will ticket myself only...no AO or DJ involved. I am respectful of others and myself.

"I am the most impatient person I know." DJ to self...you acknowledge you give yourself permission to want what you want and when you want it. From being a pleaser all your life, you strived to give people what they wanted when they wanted it...because that's YOUR standard. Which was a DJ to self and others. Find the blessing in NOT pleasing...know the great disrespect of it, and stop. Your patience will increase the more you see how you give yourself permission to be destructive in this way to others and to yourself.

"How do I DJ myself? If I call myself on an action that I know is wrong, how is that a DJ? I'm simply calling a spade a spade. Or am I missing the point somewhere?" Ayup...a spade knows it is a spade...you can ask yourself why you chose that a wrong action...but I suspect, what you are doing is determing the RESULTS, not the action, as wrong from what you wanted. :::sound of screeching tires on hot pavement:::

Could that be closer than calling an object an object? Or maybe you meant this...that you call 'em as you see'm...which is speaking your truth, only maybe it comes out as THE truth?

When we get right with treating ourselves the way we treat others, and vice versa, then judgment becomes an obvious battery acid indicator...you don't want to be throwing that stuff around...handle with utmost care...discern, not judge. Do the same for yourself.

Thank you so much for sharing your fantastic news...you working on you, without resentment, expectations, etc...and staying aware you ARE being given the opportunity to recover is music to my heart. I appreciate your update very much. And if it wasn't as good, I would still appreciate it.

Can you add a book to your list? Easy read, scripturally based...says all of what I've been telling you and others...honestly, I'm thrilled it is out there being said much better than I can say it..."Boundaries in Marriage" Cloud & Townsend. It is like all the great posts on the board are in this book...and I think you'll see why you are in a much better place with your own growth, how God is a part of it, and what you're doing is maturing in Christ.

You rock.

LA

LA -

Sorry for not responding sooner. Been a bit busy at work.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the way I treat myself is the way I treat others, and vice-versa? That makes sense...I think I'm beginning to see the light (I hope it's not an onrushing train <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).


This one I don't quite understand. Why would I not want to please other people? Isn't that part of a servant nature, the nature Christ calls us to have? By not pleasing my wife, I left the door open for another man to step in and do so. Or did I misunderstand what you said?

I'll have to look into the book you suggested. The title sounds familiar.

Hey LA -

I hope you're around and available today. I need some more of your to-the-point and solid advice.

I think I screwed up again last night, even though I didn't want to. Things have been going well the last few weeks, since the turn-around point after my last un-fun conversation with MP.

Last night I talked with her, because there have been some things on my mind that I wanted to share with her. One of the things she's wanted from me is emotional honesty - i.e., not holding things in until I explode.

I've been dealing with fears of continued contact, even though I don't have any proof, and between KiwiJ's recent thread and Mortarman's current situation, I've been...well, scared. And down.

I opened the conversation asking why my name was next to OM's on a sheet of paper she was using for an online quiz. It was disturbing to see his name next to mine, but I'm over that now.

I then turned to a statement she had said (and has said before the A, but really bothers me now). She has said that if I ever had an A, she didn't want to know about it and for me to not bring anything home. I told her that made me feel like she didn't care if I had an affair or not, as long as she didn't know about it.

She said that wasn't the case, but it was protection for her. Her first love cheated on her, as did another guy she was with who, unbeknownst to her, was not divorced but in an open marriage. I tried to understand her point of view, but I've been with her 7 years, longer than anyone else in her life, and I've never given her any indication that I would cheat on her, and I didn't like being judged by other guys actions - I have enough mistakes of my own to worry about, I don't need other twits' baggage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some things that have come out since the A, regarding me, really rocked her hard. First, I told her that I had been tempted at times (not with any specific person, nor did I ever put any effort into finding someone else). Temptation is a part of life, and while I don't view the fact that I've been tempted as a big deal, I can see where it would affect her given her history.

Second, I told her that I had done some looking at porn in the past during our relationship (problem since fixed, though I have to guard myself against that very slippery slope). I think that really, really, really hurt her. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I ever apologized (or adequately enough) for it.

So that issue was taken care of - or at least out in the open. I know now that she does care if I were to do an A (I've always known that had I done that, it would tear her apart worse than her A has me, which has been a strong motivator for me not to go down that road). I also realize now (as I'm writing this) that my porn useage, regardless of the quantity, really hurt her. Gonna need to address that one.

Finally, I told her that I was having a real hard time with anger, hurt, resentment and bitterness - primarily because I don't feel that she is remorseful, regretful or sorry for anything that has happened or concerned at how badly she has hurt me (I know that she knows how badly I'm hurt, I just don't feel she cares).

That's where things started to get not so good. I tried not to DJ, but I know I did. I told her at one point that I was tired of feeling like she was laying the blame for the A at my feet. She says she's not, and it was probably presumptuous of me to say that, though I did state it was a feeling, and not necessarily accurate.

I also told her that she needs to remember that she cost me a friendship as well, because OM was my friend first. Obviously, he owns responsibility for his actions as well, and I have no intention of letting him off the hook. But I could have phrased it better. She knows that the A cost my friendship with OM, and she said that he does truly regret that (ironically, I believe her on this...I believe he does regret the loss of friendship on some level, although it certainly didn't stop him from actively pursuing my wife once the A was in the open).

She can't give me an apology yet - at least, not a sincere one. I would also like her forgiveness for my mistakes....that's up in the air too. She says she's mostly let it go, like other hurts in her life. Not quite the same thing, in my book.

I did tell her that my desire for sorry and remorse/regret, and foregiveness where just that. They are what I want and hope from her, but I'm not telling her she has to give them to me. My anger and other emotions are mine to own and deal with, not hers. But I wanted her to know what was on my mind, so she could understand my moodiness at times.

I think I strayed nearly into the arena of educating her, which is not productive...any more than her trying to educate me would be if I'm not willing to listen.

Now all the good we've accomplished together is gone. Or at least it seems to be. Things were going really well, compared to a couple of months ago, and I just had to open my big mouth. Now I have to figure out how to fix it and get us back on track.

She was distant this morning...not pissed off or really angry, just more distant than quite a while. I'm a little distant too. Frustrated with her because she still seems to exhibit a sense of entitlement to me ("I didn't care for her or love her, so why should I care if she had an A" and stuff like that). Pissed off at myself for not being able to communicate how I felt without dragging her down into my own personal morass of emotional immaturity and constipation.

I realize that her feelings are her own, but as I told her last night that doesn't mean I need to trample all over them or make her feel bad.

I told her that I do try to focus on the positives, but it doesn't always work. And there are a lot of positives. We're not where I want us to be yet, but we're in a better spot than a lot of couples on this forum, and there are probably BS's out there that would love to be where I'm at.

So what positives do I see?

- She's here.
- She's working on our marriage.
- We're still actively involved with MC, with a new counselor who's known us since we were dating and started going to church, and was at our wedding.
- She's engaged with the family.
- She is doing things for me, or at least trying (schedules and kids keep getting in the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
- We are having SF, and the intimacy department is, in her words, the best since our honeymoon almost 5 years ago.
- She will listen to me when I want or need to talk.
- She is concerned for me, and will approach me and ask if I need to talk when I appear to be down.
- She reads scripture with me.
- I pray over her in the mornign before work.

Lots of positives there, in my book. So why can I not just keep my mouth shut and let her work her own recovery? Why can I not be a man and handle my emotions properly?

I found out last night (this can go under the positives) that OM had wanted her to come out again, after the last, drastically shortened trip, and she told him no because she wanted to work on her marriage. Her abbrevited 2nd trip, her refusal to come out to see him again during a tough time in his life, and her general unavailability as a friend for him is what caused him to pretty much want nothing to do with her, according to her last night.

In her own way, she is working these issues. I said earlier that there are 3 recoveries here - hers, mine and our marriage. How do I share my struggles without bringing her down or making her play "what if" games in her mind?

Sure, there are negatives. I still don't have a warm fuzzy on NC, we still need to work on radical honesty (I do as well - it's not entirely one-sided), she's still in a "wait and see" mode regarding my changes.

But the negative list is a lot shorter than the positive list, and at least one item on the negative list is my perception, and may or may not be reality (NC).

Emotional honesty is vital...but how can I do that without triggering her? Forgiveness, I have learned, through this and other events in the last few years, is much more about yourself than the other person. It frees you from carrying a grudge or a sense of entitlement that the person who wronged you owes you something.

My forgiveness of MP should not be contigent upon her actions - if it is, then it's not genuine. I realized last night that while I have told her I forgive her (at least for some things), I have not yet completed that process.

Is it fair for me to expect genuine remorse and sorrow for her actions for me to recover? If I spent my life waiting for everyone who has wronged me (real or imagined) to ask forgiveness and show remorse, I'd get nothing accomplished.

I've tried giving my bitterness and anger to God, but He hasn't seen fit to relieve me of the burden yet. Apparently I have work still to do, but I'd really like to figure a way out of this mess.

One of the things that made the situation spiral even worse after the A was revealed was that I got clingy. I asked her last night what the ****** did she expect me to do? I'm stronger now than I was then, and I know that I will emerge from this as a stronger and better BB. I told her that last night, and that I hope to do that with her. She wanted to know if by that I meant divorce, and I told her that I'm not contemplating that, just that I know I will survive this, and I really want to do it with her.

I'm beginning to think that she may be going into withdrawal. If what she has told me is accurate and true, he doesn't want anything to do with her, and over the past few months he has responded very rarely to her contact attempts.

One more positive, I think. It's very easy, and common, for a BS to think they're second choice, especially when the OP breaks it off. However, since he wanted her to come visit this year, and she chose to work on our marriage, even if she doesn't have much hope of it working out at this point in time, tells me that I was not 2nd choice - at least not entirely.

OK...I've rambled enough. I'm really sad and hurt today, mainly because I know MP is hurting. I realize that her hurt is hers to own, but it really hurts me that I triggered it, even though I'm frustrated still with some of her views of the situation.

*sigh* One step forward, 5 steps back....that makes for deficit progress, I believe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm here, BB...

"I opened the conversation asking why my name was next to OM's on a sheet of paper she was using for an online quiz. It was disturbing to see his name next to mine, but I'm over that now." How is this being emotionally honest? LOL I'm not bashing...I know this is tough to get because we've been doing it one way our whole lives...try this one on...

"I say my name next to OW's on the online quiz you took. I felt huge fear, anxiety, compulsively triggered to your affair, believing you compare, rate and that I don't. I know I am doing this to me. I want so much to get past my fear of continued contact, of him in your thoughts instead of our marriage. I have been trying to snipe these thoughts when they enter my head...own them, bless them and let them go in a few seconds...seemed to be working about half the time until today. I know I choose to trust, to love, to fear and trust and love anyway."

That's intimacy and ownership. Nothing attacking...don't ask your spouse "why" questions...it is automatic aggression...and with good reason.

"There's a woman on MB, a FWW who has helped me and so many others...and she made contact with her OM after nearly three years...I immediately allowed myself to leap into the future, feel all that betrayal, more intensely and deeply than before, because I picture us thriving, respectful and loving...like her and her H. I felt terrified. Same with this guy, who's like a rock...and he's getting divorced...after years of trying. I feel like a child...scared, unsure and vulnerable."

Can you see the intimacy, feel it? Trusted gifts of expression...trusting yourself enough to share...not based on the response?

No wonder you hurt! Look how you DJ'd this...
"I tried to understand her point of view, but I've been with her 7 years, longer than anyone else in her life, and I've never given her any indication that I would cheat on her, and I didn't like being judged by other guys actions - I have enough mistakes of my own to worry about, I don't need other twits' baggage" She wasn't judging you on them...YOU did that. She was sharing where her fear comes from and what the cure for that fear looks like to her. Not about you. Not a cure in your book. Respect those are hers, not yours!

You have no control. Stop getting what is essentially your self respect from her! Please...do this for yourself. You're separate and equal...stop stomping on her stuff, even in your own head, 'k?

"Finally, I told her that I was having a real hard time with anger, hurt, resentment and bitterness" This is good...then this is where they got butt-ugly "- primarily because I don't feel that she is remorseful, regretful or sorry for anything that has happened or concerned at how badly she has hurt me (I know that she knows how badly I'm hurt, I just don't feel she cares)." You just put all your stuff on her shoulders...because you DJ'd her feelings...that she doesn't care...which most injuries you and disrespects her.

Oh, BB...big step back, don't you think? What did you own? Nothing? Blaming others is horrific...take it out of your marriage. If she can reach inside you, heal you by her choices and actions, fill you up...then she can kill you, drain you and tear you down...without even looking at you. With this belief, you are a puppet to another human being...not equal, whole or real. You're empty.

I know better. You're not. Don't go there in your beliefs...get that out of you. You're still working on how to own and express what is yours...how on earth could you be to the point where you look at what is hers? That takes discernment and you're stuck in judgment and blame.

Oh, and it gets worse...she cost you your friendship...not OM? Doubly betrayed, but all WW fault? Whoa...and you? What was your part in that friendship...was it even real with someone who would do that?

No power here either. Ack.

Just cause you state something as a feeling doesn't make it so. You believe she blames you...and so you should! You're projecting blame all over the place!

You choose to believe she blames you for her choices...because you continue to blame her for yours...and that's how it is going to "feel" as long as you choose to believe it!

I can't even quote all the DJ's...you were rife with them.

"Not quite the same thing, in my book." PLEASE get a new book...a careful, honest self-examination book which you hold yourself to and not others? Please? Label it "Respect for Humans" and live by it...please?

Did you know that great, good-hearted men have done great evil? Please don't be one of those, BB...I believe you truly believe all you said...not just the way you said it...you believe you are helpless, powerless, unless you reject...when really, you are this way because you don't respect.

"But I wanted her to know what was on my mind, so she could understand my moodiness at times." Are you saying, truly, that you shared your thoughts, feelings and beliefs for her benefit, not yours? Not the marriages? So you could get a pass on moodiness? Not have it held against you...like you holding all that other stuff against her?

Oh, BB...saying you own your stuff isn't owning your stuff...just lip service. Knowing only you own your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...BELIVING that all the way down, that's ownership. Not just words.

You hurt and you fear and you judge your way out of it. How is that working for you? Judging you, judging her...the marriage...not finding out why you choose to create and hold resentment, feel entitled and lack respect...all the elements of a wayward. And you actually believe you haven't had an affair because of your wife's history, not your choice? Even that is on her...wow. I would crumple...wait, I did. She has the choice to hand it back to you...and I think she tried...she shared with you and you weren't safe...her own remorse was in her action...her trying to be intimate...and you judged her in that most vulnerable state.

Could be a man who is thirsty sitting next to an artesian spring...and dies of thirst, looking right at it...himself. Choose to reach down and flip around all that you want from her and find out if you are giving that to yourself...sincere remorse for the way you betrayed yourself and how; how you broke your own love of self; how you are choosing bitterness instead of acceptance...for self.

Give it a go, BB. You triggered. That's yours. Your growth lesson...that's self wanting to know what it did that was so bad that you'd stop loving Self.

"Now all the good we've accomplished together is gone." Another DJ belief you're choosing instead of truth."

"and I just had to open my big mouth." You believe you were being O&H and it got you in trouble. You are teaching yourself not to be true to yourself because of her response. You are wiping out what can't be wiped out to comfort yourself...make it a simple decision to not be intimate and to be safe from harm, instead. Choose to live in your DJ fantasy instead of reality...here's where you're having an affair with conflict avoidance...fear of intimacy.

Your fear is more powerful than her OM could ever be.

Until you understand that "how to fix it and get us back on track" is abusive, how can you be intimate? Respectful? Separate and equal? When you make a mistake, you find out what it is, how it violates your code, then you own it to the other person and do amends. Share the knowledge of what you learned and that you won't be doing it again. That's fixing you...the only person you can fix. Not the situation or another person. May not fix anything--only you. You'll respect yourself for it.

You don't believe she cares and she doesn't believe you care...is it any wonder? Only one of you knows a new way to live...and you are choosing the old way, instead.

You cannot drag her down, up or anywhere, BB. Please know it is your beliefs that are doing you in, not your words...your chosen perspective is still disrespectful. Controlling what can't be controlled and owning what isn't yours. Dear BB...you are not inadequate or defective. You are in your child-like beliefs and that's why you see yourself as immature, instead of an adult attempt at intimacy gone awry.

All that she's doing for you, the positives, are you doing those things for yourself and for her?

Do you listen to yourself? Are you in the present? Fully present? Do you accept yourself...trust yourself...or do you berate and kick yourself...because then you'll be kicking and berating her, also. You won't see it, but you'll do it, anyway.

"Why can I not be a man and handle my emotions properly?" Could it be that your image of a man is skewed? Poorly drawn and believed? Blurry? Untrue? You tried to share your emotions and realized you don't know feelings from beliefs...how to tell the difference...which is a start...and then how to identify them. It isn't easy...we're really complex creatures, by God's design...knowing ourselves is how we come to be intimates of God...easy ain't part of it.

Simple respect is part of it.

Are you tallying the positives and negatives because you are trying to stay grounded in the reality you share with her...or do you do that with yourself, also? Tally up to see if you're being good or bad?

God doesn't take what you created and have maintained from you...bitterness and resentment are your creations. Fear, yes...when your trust in God outweighs it. Fear reduced to the size of the child inside of you it is coming from is usual...not giant sized. And whatever you give to God to hold, respectfully, he will hand it back. He believes in you. He knows who he created and what your purpose is...your journey...he won't save your marriage for you...but he's laid out all you need to do, your part, to thrive.

Is your bitterness coming from expectation? She wouldn't cheat because she knows the devastation...so you were safe from that...until you weren't?

You got clingy...be honest...in times of fear, are you not clingy? In great distress, insecurity, are you not clingy? Because you look outside yourself, fear yourself? Your very helplessness, which you are actively choosing for your perspective, is that not driving the urge to cling, to be safe, to be held?

Clingy isn't about strength...it is about belief. You believing you are helpless and not owning your power.

Helpless can seem the equivalent to blameless. It isn't. If you believe deep down you made her have an A...which is why you're craving her forgiveness...then to be helpless, see blame, is feeding your bitterness, resentment...for yourself. Self-betrayal feels the same...doubles the pain from a spouse betraying us...and only we can deal with that. Not others.

Please BB, break this enmeshment. Do not hurt because she's hurting...that doesn't own anything. It is disrespectful. Hurt because you hurt...you are trying to get love to fill you up instead of loving yourself enough to overflow with it...only then will you be free to see how much you are really loved.

You can do this. I am not kicking you when you're down...and you're down because you know all of what I've said already...stop blaming yourself--you've owned what you did, and now that you're doing it again, in part, own it and pledge to not do it again...and forgive yourself. You're worth it.

LA

Hi LA -

Sorry for the delay in responding. Been a busy week at home and work. I also wanted to have time to digest the many good points that you made. I'm going to try and respond to what I think is the essence of your post, rather than specific points.

The circle comes back (again) to me. I'm sensing a pattern here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Separate but equal. How? How can two married people be separate? That's part of what got us in this position to start with.

I can see where I DJed over and over....lather....rinse...repeat. I obviously need a lot of work on my communication skills. I need to express myself without putting blame on her? I feel bitter and angry and hurt and resentful and leave it at that?

So she asks "Why?" What do I say then? Her actions are the cause of it. If I'm not to judge or put blame on her, then I have no reason to feel anger or hurt or anything else.

Self-value and self-love. Acceptance of who I am - good and bad. Keep the good, work on the bad. Ok...got that. Don't do it well yet, but I do get it, at least on an intellecutal level. Own my actions, and my feelings. Accept blame for what is mine, but not blame others? What about accountability? If I hold myself accountable for my actions, am I not supposed to hold myself accountable for others actions? That flies in the face of NT scripture (not saying you said that, just trying to get clarification).

Is it wrong to judge an action which is clearly wrong (like an A, or robbery, or whatever)? Or are you saying it's wrong for me to judge another person's heart and/or mind? I can go with the latter...not sure about the former.

Ok...back to feelings. Feelings are mine, and my responsibilty. No shifting responsibility for them to other parties (be it my wife, a friend or the idiot on the road who cut me off).

So here's my disconnect. Perhaps you can help me connect the dots <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am responsible for myself, and no others. So what's the point of a marriage then? Is it wrong to have some level of expectation that one's spouse will care for them? Separate but equal doesn't quite compute for me (but then, I still have trouble understanding the Trinity, even though I believe it).

Back to me again. If everything derives from my own self-respect, how then can I feel for others? If my wife is hurting, why can I not hurt for her? If our DD scrapes her knee, is it not natural for me to feel something for her?

I guess that's where I'm stuck at. I just don't get it (at this rate I'm going to fall into Lemonman's signature quote <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I've been hurt, deeply. I'm trying to take ownership for my actions. Am I to suffer pain and just shrug it off? I do not think I am capable of that....and if that is what is required than any attempt at recovery may be doomed.

I guess one of my underlying fears is that MP may never be remorseful for her actions. I can eventually get over the pain and bitterness, but I do not know if that end state will have me and MP together. I don't see how I could stay if there is never any remorse or repentance, or forgiveness for my past actions.

Perhaps that the real underlying issue? My fear that I won't get what I so desire, and that fear is driving the negative emotions? If that's the case, then what? That's a hard fear to let go of.

I've been taking stabs at writing this all week, so I hope it's somewhat coherent. I do appreciate your advice and insight, so please don't take anything I've written as me being upset with you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for the OM, I do hold him 100% responsible for his choices and actions, and MP knows that. Any attempts by her to defend him have been quickly shot down - she knows that, from where I sit, he has no defense.

I feel very much in limbo, as she has not (from what I've seen) committed 100% to the marriage. I do tally good and bad, mainly the good, because it does help keep things in perspective. Every so often though I lose my balance.

Perhaps I should double my daily intake of St John's Wart - if 1050 mg is good, 2100 should be twice as good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At least it has helped (with both my general mood, and my energy and drive). MP is giving me time to change - I just hope she doesn't sit on the fence so long that when I'm done changing, there's no place for her in my life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Things are still going ok, I think. Not as good as previously, but in our last MC our counselor really explored her reasons for not being remorseful or repentant, and that got her down.

I do realize that I can't change her. Realizing that and staying out of trying to change her are apparently two entirely different things, and something I need to work on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bird,

Great to see you...no time limits, 'k?

"Separate but equal. How? How can two married people be separate? That's part of what got us in this position to start with."

This was the most important belief I changed in myself, Bird. When you were born, were you part of your wife? Your parents? You were separated at birth...a condition all humans have...born alone, die alone...and many of us spend all the hours in between choosing to believe we are one.

And here's where I say, "You're not alone."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Two becoming one...two whole, separate people, choosing to share their separate journey's together...to be intimate of themselves and their partners by sharing who they are, what they believe, think and feel. One does not complete the other...because that would mean two not-whole people, wouldn't it? Each complements the other...not complete. A dyslexic quandry for me.

If you are completing each other in marriage, then you are partially living through each other...which is enmeshment...being entangled and not whole. Two people make a whole marriage...Harley's Rules of Marriage are about protecting and nourishing that whole and being connected.

Not enmeshed.

"I can see where I DJed over and over...lather....rinse...repeat. I obviously need a lot of work on my communication skills."

I think of my behavior in the same way...lather, rinse, repeat. LOL. And that's what it is...doing something by habit, not consciously. Your awareness of the DJs is the hardest part, actually. Truly. Now, take that awareness and know that this isn't about you and the way you speak or express...it is about the belief you have that you can know, assume and mind read.

"I need to express myself without putting blame on her?" That would take you believing there is no blame in marriage, wouldn't it?

"I feel bitter and angry and hurt and resentful and leave it at that?" What's to leave? You are bitter, angry, in pain and resentful. By stating it, you are owning what is yours. You're being open and honest. It's your truth and it's big, don't you think?

"So she asks "Why?" What do I say then?"

Ask yourself why are you bitter? What are you resentful? Find out where these signals are coming from, then you can share.

"I feel bitter because I have believed that you are part of me and I am part of you. You reflect me, who I am, and I do the same for you. I'm finding out how much bitterness and resentment comes from choosing to believe that."

"Her actions are the cause of it." Are they entirely? Or do you have a part?

"If I'm not to judge or put blame on her, then I have no reason to feel anger or hurt or anything else." Wow. Big realization here...to express is to manipulate...to blame, judge...control? What do you think?

What about choosing to know and be known? To know yourself, share yourself with her? For no other reason but respect? Desire to be intimate? "I love bananas." That's sharing...no judgment or blame there. What do you think?

"Self-value and self-love. Acceptance of who I am - good and bad." True acceptance knows there is no good or bad about self.

"Keep the good, work on the bad." No, find the true beliefs and eliminate the false ones.

"Ok...got that. Don't do it well yet, but I do get it, at least on an intellecutal level. Own my actions, and my feelings." Yes...acknowledge this isn't a science or an action...it is you knowing you, fully. Not earning your respect, but respecting self.

"Accept blame for what is mine, but not blame others?"

Wow...for there to be blame, there must be judgment. For there to be judgment, there must be expectation. For there to be expectation, there must be fear.

Where is blame in love?

"What about accountability? If I hold myself accountable for my actions, am I not supposed to hold myself accountable for others actions?" Hold about putting that thought on hold until you can fully hold yourself...embrace and know, without blame, judgment, expectation or fear?

Then you could choose that belief with more knowledge than you have right now. You have been operating on accountability, earning love, punishment; deserving and deserved all your life. How's that been working for you?

"That flies in the face of NT scripture (not saying you said that, just trying to get clarification)." Taking scripture in order is very difficult. Picking primary teachings involves secondary teachings...etc. God said, "I made you in my image." Whole, complete, marvelous and separate. He respected us and gave us choice with no control over anyone else...choosing to see yourself in that light, that truth, changes all that you will read afterward, doesn't it? If you are whole, and everyone else is whole...equal...separate...then blame, judgment, accountability...have new meaning when you have new eyes.

"Is it wrong to judge an action which is clearly wrong (like an A, or robbery, or whatever)? Or are you saying it's wrong for me to judge another person's heart and/or mind? I can go with the latter...not sure about the former."

Okay, I'll go here with you...and this isn't easy stuff. God says do not judge...he says to discern, which is what you are doing in posing this question. Do not judge others to be defective, wrong or incapable. Judgment is battery acid and must be handled with care. We do not build our self respect on it, turn it on ourselves or others without careful consideration and care.

Actions are our shared truth. Adultery, stealing, murdering, worshipping false idols, betrayal, coveting...all are wrong. We do them, anyway. Doesn't make us wrong as humans. We make mistakes. We can never be mistakes. We can give ourselves permission to judge, but we cannot be judges. We are trapped within our own selves, limited by our experience, our only view of the outside coming into us...we are subjective beings, so we judge subjectively.

Judgment takes objectivity. I'm leaving it there for now.

I know that there are disrespectful judgments and judgments. I haven't found unDJ's yet. I'll let you know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, wait! Holy Moly! I got one...thanks, Bird! I judge DJs, don't I? I know what a DJ looks like, where it comes from in me and I do not allow myself or others to DJ...okay, they can, but I point them out...even in person. I promise. Wow. Okay. Awareness of translates into a boundary...a choice for me to point out assumptions and mindreadings.

Yes, I judge the actions, not the person. I have my truth, you have yours...she has hers. Hands off is respect. The truth we share is actions and words...they are spoken and taken...part of our shared reality. DJs are destruction in tiny bites. They are signals and information. They are not bad or wrong or great or good. They are. They just are. They are evidence of a belief...which is someone's or mine own truth. That's all. Judging evidence. Does that help?

"Ok...back to feelings. Feelings are mine, and my responsibilty. No shifting responsibility for them to other parties (be it my wife, a friend or the idiot on the road who cut me off)." Owning our feelings is a lot scarier than disowning them, isn't it? Anger is a secondary emotion...what was the first one you had when someone cuts you off when you're driving? Know your own signals. Trace them back to your belief...your expectation to not be cut off...to be safe...we're all driving lethal weapons...we're all equal, right?

"So here's my disconnect. Perhaps you can help me connect the dots

I am responsible for myself, and no others. So what's the point of a marriage then?"

There are three realities...Freedom, Responsibility and Love. With or without marriage, these remain. You can only control yourself...so when you are loved and committed to, that's a gift. A vow to share your journey with you...and to share theirs with you. You have the reality to freely choose who you share your journey with...at all times...in all ways. Your choice. Why would you choose to make a vow into an expectation? Fear?

"Is it wrong to have some level of expectation that one's spouse will care for them?" If you believe you earn love through actions, then that expectation doesn't seem unreasonable...seems safe...I do my part, she does her part and we are safe from tragedy.

If you choose to believe that you love because you CHOOSE to love, then what expectation do you have?

"Separate but equal doesn't quite compute for me (but then, I still have trouble understanding the Trinity, even though I believe it)." What if you believed that humans were separate until they married...the sole purpose to not be alone, trapped within separateness...finally merged, larger, wider, expanded than before? Would this belief have made a lot of sense as a child? Otherwise, why put up with another person at all?

As for the Trinity...I am again, with you...only because you said that, I got a glimmer...the closer I get to self, the better I get Trinity. It was a signal of closing in on my truth will give me greater understanding of The Truth. I have faith I'll get there...here's where that glimmer came from...rudimentary and instanteous, 'k?

I talk to you and about you and your self. That's two. Then I through in you about you and your self and your self-image. That's three parts, one whole.

That's all I have right now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you!

"Back to me again. If everything derives from my own self-respect, how then can I feel for others? If my wife is hurting, why can I not hurt for her?" Why are you choosing to see this as two absolutes? You hurt for others when they hurt because you feel their pain through your own experience...how you would feel if you were them. That's empathy. However...this promotes, if taken to an extreme, you wanting your WW to feel your pain because you hurt, doesn't it? We're always seeking balance...humans intuitively understand balance...from our human form, to our emotions, minds and souls...balance has answers. Our belief system works on balance...can you see where going to opposites (absolutes) is only the first step of working your way to the center, to the middle.

"If our DD scrapes her knee, is it not natural for me to feel something for her?" Natural...created by God...to connect...through shared experiences. You can no more feel exactly what your DD feels than I can feel what you are feeling. It is a semblance, not exact. This is where respect and empathy separate. True empathy knows I cannot know another's pain in the way they feel it...it is theirs alone. God's design. True empathy is respectful. How do you react to your DD's pain? Share it or attempt to cure it? Change it? Make it less? That's where you venture across the line...because your intent is to lessen the pain you feel, not hers. You can't. Hers is hers. Yours is yours. Sharing is another matter, isn't it?

Dual acknowledgement...sharing what a scraped knee felt like for you...respects separate and shows connection...no corpreal takeovers involved. No cures required. Sharing experience changes the experience for both.

"I guess that's where I'm stuck at. I just don't get it (at this rate I'm going to fall into Lemonman's signature quote)." Your choice, Bird. You aren't stuck...you are looking at turning your beliefs inside out and see their seams...the very intimate parts of yourself. Why it can feel like a precipice or falling...inside out. What you believe you've known along is not what you've known.

"I've been hurt, deeply" You hurt deeply. Your job is to find out what that pain is signalling...where in you it is coming from...your expectations, fear, judgment, blame...

"I'm trying to take ownership for my actions." Here is the funny part of humans...we don't try. We don't. We either do or don't. We either believe we own or don't believe. I don't think you believe you own your feelings. Could that be correct? They are too volatile, untameable, uncontrollable to be owned? They can be all of that, from your perspective, and still be yours. No right or wrong about it.

"Am I to suffer pain and just shrug it off?"

Pain is necessary; suffering is optional. Pain is a signal...information to you from your beliefs. Find the core...I believe if I am good and do good, I will be safe from rejection, annihilation and pain. That belief will signal you with a whole lot of pain when reality is contrary to it.

"I do not think I am capable of that....and if that is what is required than any attempt at recovery may be doomed." You are fully capable...you may be not choosing that perspective. God didn't make you incapable of anything...and believe, many times I wished he had!

Focus on you, Bird. No one can doom your personal recovery. It's yours. Don't have to take it for the fact of it to remain. Yours. All yours.

"I guess one of my underlying fears is that MP may never be remorseful for her actions." Do you fear if she doesn't demonstrate her remorse then you will not be safe?

You share this with every BS...this fear. Doesn't make you weak or wrong. Doesn't make you dependent on her remorse, either. Your choice. (I'm intentionally leaving that vague...I know you will come to this on your own...I suddenly felt anger from fear of being bashed...so this is all I'm saying right now...see? choice to be a woosy. I can handle it.)

"I can eventually get over the pain and bitterness, but I do not know if that end state will have me and MP together." Why are you in the future here? I can't reach you there...it is unknown...why are you attempting to go there and know something? Decide your actions and beliefs today on the unknown?

"I don't see how I could stay if there is never any remorse or repentance, or forgiveness for my past actions." Know the power of One Day At A Time? It is a universal truth...up to you to recognize or discard. You are choosing to stay today. You are choosing to love today. You are choosing your life today.

Stay here, with us other humans, in the present, Bird. It isn't just ironic semantics--present and presence.

I hear you feeling defensive...attacked by her choices...sounds like fear...large quantities...and when you feel mostly fear, then love can't get through. Get to the grit of what you fear...

being made a fool, being seen as weak, doormat, craven, vulnerable? What?

"Perhaps that the real underlying issue? My fear that I won't get what I so desire, and that fear is driving the negative emotions?" Fear comes from your beliefs...which do hand you emotions...relief from fearing something happening that doesn't...can feel like joy...anger from fearing something happening and it happening...real emotions, like sadness, is awareness of what is lost, what is no longer, and we mourn through other emotions...unless we believe we should not have lost it...if we inject blame and controlling beliefs...slamming us...which undermines our awareness of what we're grieving for.

"If that's the case, then what? That's a hard fear to let go of." All fear is hard to let go of if you don't find out the beliefs it is coming from. There's a payoff in fearing...and you have to find it.

Fear is a small child inside of you, Bird. It IS you...a long time ago...to be held, cherished, understood...and not acted on. We have to be our own heros to our fear...

"I've been taking stabs at writing this all week, so I hope it's somewhat coherent." Blessedly coherent and honest.

"I do appreciate your advice and insight, so please don't take anything I've written as me being upset with you." What? A DJ to MOI!?! LOL...My desire is to take no offense and give no defense. I trust you, Bird. Wholly. I believe in our intent, your self and your life more than you right now. You can tell me where you felt anger, pain or frustration...and I will value your honesty, your choice to share your truth with me. When you are upset (meaning emotions out of balance)...that's yours. I'm not doing it to you. You cannot do that to me. I respect what is yours...and can only grow from being connected, by your choice and mine...truth matters.

Find your payoff in fearing...DJs...why you hate feeling insecure...unsure...leap into the future or the past...why being present, a presence, shakes you up...

God's loving all of you...you're beautifully made. What would you feel if I told you he's rejoicing for your journey?

LA

As for the OM, I do hold him 100% responsible for his choices and actions, and MP knows that. Any attempts by her to defend him have been quickly shot down - she knows that, from where I sit, he has no defense.

I feel very much in limbo, as she has not (from what I've seen) committed 100% to the marriage. I do tally good and bad, mainly the good, because it does help keep things in perspective. Every so often though I lose my balance.

Perhaps I should double my daily intake of St John's Wart - if 1050 mg is good, 2100 should be twice as good At least it has helped (with both my general mood, and my energy and drive). MP is giving me time to change - I just hope she doesn't sit on the fence so long that when I'm done changing, there's no place for her in my life

Things are still going ok, I think. Not as good as previously, but in our last MC our counselor really explored her reasons for not being remorseful or repentant, and that got her down.

I do realize that I can't change her. Realizing that and staying out of trying to change her are apparently two entirely different things, and something I need to work on

Hi LA -

Ok...so I think I'm getting more pieces of the puzzle called me here...at least I hope so. I'm beginning to think I'm a 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle and nobody gave me the box top to use as a reference <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


You sound like Yoda <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." I think my fears are at the root of what drives me, in many ways.

My judgement - MP is not remorseful or sorry for what she did.
My expectation - MP should be remorseful or sorry if she truly wants me and our marriage.
My fear - That MP will not recommit to me and our marriage.

It's that what you were driving at?

What it all seems to boil down to, no matter how many ways I slice it, is that I'm still looking at MP to fix me, at least in some ways, while simultaneously I try to fix her.

That doesn't seem to be working very well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So it all comes back to me (well, I come back to me...MP goes back to MP). I determine who I am, accept and respect that, and live my life accordingly?

I am not powerless, though I feel like it at times. I think my frame of reference is off. MP does not appear to feel sorry or have any empathy for what her actions have put me through. Therefore, I feel powerless because I'm looking to her to fix me.

Change frame of reference to "MP does not appear to feel sorry or have any empathy for what I've gone through. I accept that, and choose to not live in the past and look at the here and now."?

Easy to say. Hard to do. My fear? That without remorse or sorrow, she will not recommit to the marriage and to me.

Even that is a partial DJ. She could believe she is 100% committed to the marriage and me and never stray again without any feelings of sorrow or remorse, and she could even be right.

Whether she is nor not, whether she does nor not, it's a fear that I have no control over. Well, I have control over the fear, if I choose to exercise that control. I have no control over what she decides.

I have control over whether or not I will live in that situation. If she does not show me regret/remorse/whatever, then I may not feel protected. I need to feel protected. Or at least, I'd like to be protected. But in the end, only I can protect myself.

From that point of view comes strength. It frees me to do what I need to do to protect myself.

Which leads to another fear. One way to protect myself is to remove myself. Which is contrary to what I want the most.

This circle is making me dizzy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hate introspection. I've never been good at it. I've just started the Angry Workbook, to get a handle on my anger. It's got all those questions I hate - the ones that don't have an answer that comes out of the back, but from within you.

Ugh. It seems like what I want to say, the understanding I'm looking for, is right in front of me, but I just can't quite get it. Maybe I need glasses <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let's work it from a more recent example (thinking as I type here)....

The other night our DD was out of pajamas, so my wife went to get her a big shirt (one of ours) to wear. She brought back one of my shirts - which just happened to be the one she bought for me during her first time with the OM.

She asked me if that shirt was OK....well, at least she asked, though I thought it was a really stupid question. (The shirt to me is equivalent to a "My wife went to -- and banged my ex-friend, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt").

I told her I'd really rather not. She seemed a little frustrated by that, and pointed out that we're friends with 2 other couples in that same general area. To me, that was an extremely insensitive thing to say, but I let it go with little or no comment (I can't remember....I think I just repeated my preference that DD not wear it).

Her opinion. Different than mine. I stated my opinion and preference. Didn't elaborate on the (to me) obvious. She asked for my input, and I gave it to her in a non-threatening, non-judgemental way (I hope). Didn't delve into a long conversation about why I didn't want our DD wearing that shirt, nor why I haven't worn it since D-Day, nor what I even planned to do with it.

Yes, it was a gift from her. Unfortunately, for me, it's now a very tainted gift. Many things have been tainted by her A. It's my choice as to how I deal with those taints. If she is unhappy with how I choose to deal with them, then that's for her to work through - as long as my method of dealing with them doesn't do her harm, obviously.

Is that more in line with what you're trying to get through my head? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have very real fears, yes. Real in the sense that they are real to me. Valid and based in reality? Maybe, maybe not. But on the personal BB level, they're real, and I have to deal with the accoringly.

So how do I identify my fears? What happens if I don't want to admit my fears to myself?

Hi LA -

Here's another question for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Boundaries versus expectations.

Example - one of my boundaries is NC with OM. The consequence of not setting NC is my removing myself as an option. Fortunately we're nowhere near that one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I was thinking about forgiveness versus repentance, and wether or not MP's repentance is required for me to forgive her (or my repentance is required for her to forgive me, for that matter).

I've pretty much decided (though I just started a word study on Forgiveness) that her repentance is not required for me to forgive her, and that forgiving is more about the "injured" person than the person who did the injury (real or imagined).

However, I'm not sure that I could stay in a relationship with this level of hurt if the other person didn't express repentance (sorrow, regret, what have you) at some point, as I alluded to in my previous post.

Keeping within the confines of controling me, not others, is it wrong to set a boundary (if you will) that for the relationship to continue and thrive, there must be repentance/acknowledgement of the wrong that was done?

Or does that fall into the DJ/lack of respect/whatever column?

P.S. I have no intention of jumping ship at this point or in the foreseeable future, because I don't know when or if MP will/would meet that boundary. Obviously, it is my hope that she will. Or I may wind up down the road deciding that it doesn't really matter and our relationship will be fine (though I doubt I'd reach that point).

Gee LA - did I finally frustrate you with my hard headedness? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No hurry - I'm not going anywhere. I know that you are helping a lot of people on here, and some of them in a much tougher spot then I am. Just wanted to check in.

You should consider opening your own counseling center, you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />