Ok...maybe somebody can give me a different perspective, because it sure seems like every time I try to communicate, one or both of us gets frustrated to no end.

MP's frustration stems from the feeling (based on body language more than tone) that I'm attacking her when I bring up my feelings. Something that I'm going to have to work on.

My frustration stems from the fact that it seems like she has no empathy or concern for my feelings, and that every time I bring up a problem or issue, she has some reason for what she did or what is going on or whatever.

Most recent example (it's been a bad couple of days BTW).

Last week I noticed a large number of AOL instant messages on her cell phone's detail billing. I was surprised, because previously neither one of us could get AIM to work on our phones (at least the mobile software version).

I asked her about it, and she said (as I recall) that she had told friend X to text her via AIM, because he didn't have unlimited messaging on his phone. She however, maintained that AIM didn't work on her phone. Ok...not entirely convinced, but I was willing to work with that until proven otherwise.

I've been playing with the text-message version of AIM this week, and this morning she was online, so we chatted for a bit before she signed off. So apparently AIM is working on her phone.

I texted her this afternoon, because I had two concerns. The first one is obvious to anyone who's been in this situation - the possibility of renewed contact with OM.

The second concern, and by far in my mind currently the biggest, was that I feel she opted to give me an incomplete/evavise answer last week when I asked her about AIM. I asked her if that was her intention, and if so, why, and who she had been talking to on AIM. I also told her that it is not my intention to look over her shoulder all the time, but I would like to be able to ask her a question and be confident that I would get an honest answer, even if I didn't like it.

She replied to me and said that she doesn't contact OM even when she wants to, and he doesn't contact her, and she tells me when it does happen (and she has).

She then replied again and told me who she was talking to and that she had changed her buttons so she can't accidetnally log on.

Is it just me in my peculiar warped view of the world, or did she really not a) answer my question and b) show any concern for how I felt?

Was there a better way to address this? Perhaps I should try to have no expectations of what her answers to questions should be, since I seem to get disappointed routinely even though I've tried to tell her that how she says things is just as (if not more) important than what she says.

What did I want to hear? Acknowledgement of my concerns/fears, even if she didn't agree to them. An honest answer as to why she didn't come clean last Friday and simply say "Yes, I was chatting with friend X. If that bothers you, I can stop." Or even "Yes, I was....I'm sorry if that bothers you, but I don't see any reason to stop." At least it would have been honest.

We both acknowledge that while we can talk with each other, we have definate problems making ourselves heard. I really am trying to figure out how to speak in a language she understands, but I'm getting frustrated to the point where I no longer want to share my feelings with her because I feel she is not receptive to how I feel or what my concerns are. I once told her (terrible DJ or something here) a while back that I might be better off talking to a wall - at least then I'd know to not expect an answer.

I figure she probably doesn't like my nosiness, but that's an unfortunate consequence of her actions. Not just the A, but the continued lying and deceit after the initial disclosure. I am trying to rebuild my trust in her, but it's little things like this that impede the progress.

I know that I have done a lot in the past to make her feel unsafe emotionally, and I am trying to correct that. But it seems like there's no willingness on her part to own up to her repsonsiblities.

Another example (I guess you could call this a vent). Last night she mentioned wanting a get-away weekend. I figured she was probably referring to the outing her and some of her women friends are trying to get together (since our church is not doing a Woman's Retreat this year), but I also want a get-away weekend with her. In fact, to me the phrase get-away weekend means her and I getting away from the kids, not her going out with her girlfriends.

So I asked her a little later if she was referring to the girls-outing, or a get-away weekend with us. Apparently, I blind-sided her with that question, as she thought it was clear what she was referring to. I told her that I figured it was the girls weekend, but I wanted to make sure. She confirmed it was (the yet unplanned) girls weekend, and when I followed up and asked about her and I, she said that she would go for that too, but she wanted the weekend with the girls first. I was visibly disappointed (I feel this is another example of me not being a priority in her life - we haven't had a weekend away in a year-and-a-half)...

Which is where things went downhill. A little, at least. She seemed to get a little exasperated at me, and I got defensive of my right to feel disappointment. Since the girls-weekend isn't even planned yet, I can't make any plans - and I wanted to do something for our anniversary next month.

We talked some more about it, and she told me she wasn't saying no, but she wanted the girls weekend first to do a core dump, and not have to be mother and wife for a while.

I again pointed out that what she said didn't show any empathy or compassion for my feelings or point of view, like "I know you really want time with me, but I can't give you that right now. I'm sorry."

I'm trying to learn how to communicate in her language, why can't she learn mine?

Anyway, that's enough venting for today. I'm sure that the experienced vets around her can point out exactly how many ways I screwed up on this one.

I really need to get a duck's back. I told MP last night that I'm trying to not play martyr (even if it's only in my mind), but it seems like no matter what the issue is, it always comes back to a problem with me. Maybe I really am arrogant after all, but I have a hard time believing that everything that's wrong in my life is my fault....

And before I make this sound entirely one-sided or that I'm have a pity party, I did screw up by the numbers Wednesday night. I was very tired from a lot of hours at work, and wanted a nap, but didn't get a chance for one until 8, and even though there were too many distractions. I should have told MP what I needed clearly, not just a general statement and leave her to fill in the blanks and guess what I wanted. She even asked me what she could do to help me.

So instead of clarifying what I needed or wanted, I got upset and sulky and it went down from there.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate rollercoasters....

Ok...so I talked with my wife Friday night. I wanted to get her take on what she "heard" when I sent her my message Friday afternoon.

She felt that my message was accusatory. That I was accusing her of contacting OM, and that I was accusing her of not being honest with me.

I can see how she read that from what I wrote, even though it was not my intention. I did apologize to her for coming off accusatory.

The problem I have is that it's very hard to trust when things don't add up in my mind - hence the reason for my message on Friday. I was looking for clarification - not accusing her of contact or lying.

Unfortunately, from where I sit (which probably means I'm still judging), the last 8 months have shown her untrustworthiness, though I do believe she's working on that.

Why do I trip up over inconsistencies? Perhaps an example will serve best.

Back in the beginning of the year, I noticed that OM had called my wife on her cell phone one morning. That night, I asked her if there had been any contact between her and OM since the last time I knew about it.

She said no. I then followed-up and said "No e-mails, no text messages, no phone calls?" and she again said no.

So then I told her that I knew he had called her that morning. Not the first time she'd been caught red-handed.

She told me that he had called her, and she told him not to call her anymore since I would know about it.

So the next night she gave me more details. Turns out she had called him that morning - from voice mail (returning an old call of his). Her call got dropped, so he called her back.

Nice. Another example of not coming fully clean.

So I asked her again if there had been any other contact, and she said no.

Within a couple of weeks, I got into one of her e-mail accounts and found out that there had been e-mail exchanges between her and him from shortly before the phone call to a few days after the phone call.

In my own warped view of the world, I have ample reason to worry about her honesty - since her defintion of honesty doesn't seem to match mine. This is one example of several.

I need to know she's being honest with me, but when I ask for clarification she gets defensive or upset. This seems to be a no-win situation from my perspective...

Hiya, Bird!

I've been MBless for nearly three full days... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

'puter problems.

Have a question for ya:

"I can see how she read that from what I wrote, even though it was not my intention. I did apologize to her for coming off accusatory."

Why not listen and repeat? "I heard you say you felt accused of something you weren't doing, is that correct?"

Hey, she felt it...you checked your intent, right? You did not intend to accuse...is that correct? Were you accusing her of not being transparent? Of causing fear in you? Of shaking up the bases you'd cover to give yourself a touch of security? Why would that be hers to do for you?

I ask, because this was a trigger for you, from the first of the year...not now, not present. What if your text had been, "Learning that AIM works on your phone was a huge trigger for me...I feel like I'm in freefall from fear."

Which would have been your new level of honesty? And which would have been your response to the old? Are you going for Radical and Ownership...or are you going to intimate, believing you're speaking two different languages?

I ask because I couldn't understand your true intent...I rather heard, "Oh, great...a hole I didn't see, and now, she's triggering me all over the place."

You trigger. They are yours. Your duty is to share they are yours, why, etc...she might hear accusation when it isn't there--I can't tell if it is or not...accusing her of not keeping you safe...

And she hears blame when you share your feelings...I think those two statements are tied together...what do you think?

This is the gaping gray area in relationships, Bird...you're not crazy or wrong...there is what we perceive through our filters, and what we're being told out right.

Hopper on head helps, because it's a pre-filter to our filter. Like a holding area before coming into us, and our bias, our sneaky expectations...

How's your hopper, Bird? (Any smiles for how whimsical that sounds with Bird in the sentence?)

Where's the POJA on boundaries for the marriage, separate from hers and yours? Have you talked about no male online friends for her, or female for you? That would mean any private, email, IM conversations not on a board...what do you think? Healthy for the marriage right now...is she willing to do stuff to honor the marriage, even when she's feeling blamed, inadequate and wrong in regards to you?

She does earn her way back into your trust...and that won't happen when you're apologizing for something not in your control...if your intent was pure...to ask straight out, have you? And she says no...then why the apology for her feeling accused? Where's the validation, the acknowledgement for her feelings? She can feel accused when you're not doing that. Don't own what isn't yours.

Could that be what you're withholding because you're craving it so much for yourself? How about those communication exercises...where you both will feel heard and acknowledged each week?

Rule of thumb...what you're most craving is likely what you're least giving...do a Bird-check. Only you will know.

Is there a way to disable the AIM feature? Could you both POJA that?

Look inside yourself from the night you did the P/A thing...about the nap...and not stating clearly...P/A isn't being bad...it goes back to your FOO stuff...how much of this craving that you have is part of that, not as much present?

Bird, you may hate rollercoasters...I'm wondering how much you expect them, or expect your feelings to richocet or not...and how much those expectations are kicking your butt.

It is tough to be betrayed...until I owned the triggers as mine, my FWH couldn't begin to build trust...funny, huh?

Okay, not so funny. Bird and hopper ARE funny though. I stand by that one.

LA

Hi LA -


Welcome back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As one of my friends used to say (keep in mind that she used computers extensively) "Computers. I hate 'em. Absolutely hate 'em." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Actually, in our conversation Friday night I did this - listen and repeat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


- Intent to accuse? Not directly. I was trying to clarify what appeared to me to be an ambigous situation.
- Accusing of not being transparent? Nope. See above.
- Causing fear in me? Hmm....maybe. The fear was there, in as much as I had reason in my mind to question her honesty.

Is it not hers to won to not do these things? Or is it mine to own to not let it bother me? If the latter, that sends me back to the whole why bother to be in a relationship then (I feel like I'm dancing around the critical point of all this, and just can't quite seem to get a hold of it).


I guess that's a part of my problem. I feel like I can't share my feelings with her because she gets defensive or tries to put it back on me (more accurately, I feel that she gets defensive and/or tries to put it back on me).

She acknowledged my concern (regarding contact), but it seemed to me like she was more upset that I was accusing her of breaking no contact. Where is her ownership in all of this? I acknowledge and recognize the efforts she's been making - I've told her this multiple times. Why can she not recognize what a huge concern it is for me? By her continued lying, ommitting of facts and dodging questions early on in this issue, she did more to destroy my trust in her than she ever did with just the affair.

Does she think that a couple of months of good behavior is sufficient to wipe away all the crap of the last 8 months? When I still don't feel she's completely honest and transparent with me? If I ask her questions in that vein, she gets upset with me. I am not the one who put her in this position.

Another example from last night. She was showing me an e-mail about something, and I noticed that OM's addresses (2 of them) were in her contact list. It's the one e-mail account that I don't have access to, and was set up after she gave me access to all of her other ones - so you can imagine why it's a concern. I had already seen his name there in the contact list once before - 2 months ago. I would have expected it to be gone after the first time I asked her.

Of course, my concern is that, knowing that particular web-based mail program, names normally appear in that section only if there's been e-mail threads between the account owner and the contact's name.

I guess, per what you are saying and what MP has said, that I should just be direct.

Something like "I'm really concerned about your [email]xxx@xxx[/email] e-mail account, because OM's name is/was in your contact list, and I'd like you to show me the account so that I can see that there are indeed no e-mail threads between you and OM." I can also imagine how she'd react to that.

Why am I the bad guy for having my suspicions?


I think my hopper is broke <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We haven't POJA'd on marital boundaries. I'm not overly concerned about her online male friends - I know almost all of them, and they are my friends as well now (those that know what is going on are very supportive of MP and I as a couple, and have not taken sides either way). She's a flirt by nature, and I've told her that makes me uncomfortable currently (didn't used to).

If I asked her to consider not e-mailing/texting any of her male friends, I don't think she'd go for that. Whether I'm willing to ask for that, or accept her decision, is my problem not hers. That I do recognize.


I suck at asking straight out. I'm beginning to think I'm a closet CA. I wasn't trying to own what wasn't mine (I dont' think) - but I have never had a problem apologizing to someone if I hurt them, even if I didn't fully agree or understand their point of view.

If I don't apologize, then don't I invalidate her feelings?


We need to work on our communication more - we both acknowledge that. Finding time to do it - making the time to do it, has proved to be a bear.

So if I'm craving honesty and transparency the most, that's most likely what I'm not giving? Something to think about.

The AIM feature is not easily disabled, but she has removed it from her key pre-sets.


I'm beginning to think (I may have said this already) that I walk around expecting people to knwo what I need and want, and then get mad at them for failing to meet them. Kind of a self-fulfiling prophecy there. I owe MP a list of my wants and needs (as soon as I can put them down in a coherent format).

As for rollercoasters...are you saying that I'm going down because I expect to go down? Makes sense in a weird sort of way...

It's only Monday and my head hurts already...:)

LA -

I've written an e-mail for my wife kind of outlining what I want. Can you look at it (if you're around) and critique it for me? (Is it worth adding anything about how much I'd like an apology from her?) Thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------
Hi Dear -

So here is my attempt to list my needs and wants. It is not my intent to accuse you of anything - I just want to give you as clear a picture as I can of what my needs and wants are. So here goes (wish me luck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I want to be a high priority in your life. I want to be the #1 priority when it comes to men, and any other male friends you have are a very, very distant #2 to me. I am not asking you to get rid of your male friends, nor do I intend to do that in the future. I am not jpwever, currently, very comfortable with you flirting with other guys (if you are), because that takes your attention and energy away from me. I need and desire for you to place my feelings and security ahead of anybody else. I want you to make time for me, and plan things for us to do, just as I want to (and am attempting) to do the same for you. This (being a priority in your life) is something that I have not felt in a very long time.

I want to be able to share my feelings and emotions with you, without fearing your reaction. If I'm concerned about something, I want to be able to express that to you without you getting defensive, or shutting down or pulling away. Likewise, I want you to share your feelings and concerns with me. I have been, and continue to, strive to provide you a safe environment to do that. We both agree that communication is one of our weakpoints, and I really do want to rectify that.

I want to get our schedule under control and redistribute the domestic workload. We have talked about this many times, but we never do anything about it. I am reluctant to simply do things on my own, because past experience has shown me that it won't work unless we're both in full agreement on the steps we take, and we're both committed to making it work. Right now, I feel that I'm still doing the lion's share of domestic chores (except cooking), and doing the majority of DD's evening/bedtime routine. I'm tired of feeling like I'm the only one doing the things I feel are necessary (it follows logically that we need to decide, together, what needs to be done, and what woud be nice to have done).

I want honesty and transparency from you. I do see that you are working on giving that to me. I try not to jump to conclusions on things that strike me as suspicious or ambiguous. When I ask questions (like last Friday), I do so in an attempt to resolve what appears to me to be an ambiguous situation, and let you know where I'm coming from on the question.

You have been, from everything I can tell, working on NC. I do recognize that, and I do appreciate it. It's also a huge concern for me, and a definate hotspot/trigger. You told me on Friday that you don't contact him even when you want to, and I'm willing to extend trust to you on that. I would ask that you remove any address book entries you still have for OM from your various addressbooks, PDA and cell phone. I would also ask that in the future should he contact you, that you not engage in or reciprocate his contact. Block his e-mail addresses where you can, set up filters to discard e-mail/messages from him, etc. In other words, take every measure possible to prevent contact from him.

We approach many things differently, and I'm learning to accept that as who we are. The next step I would like us to take is to work together on mutually acceptable compromises where needed, or just a clear understanding of how each of us will handle certain situations (like the kids, for example).

I appreciate your willigness to listen to me. I will give you the same courtesy - and if you feel I'm not, then plesae let me know so I can change that. Last night was a good example of how things should go, I think. I was upset about DD not going down easily, and stepped on your toes, and you came downstairs to talk to me about it. I think I was able to put the brakes on my anger fairly soon and we were able to talk things out a bit. That's the direction I want to go in.

I love you, and will continue to give you my best effort.

BB

Still with the 'puter problems. Oy. Your friend is right.

"- Intent to accuse? Not directly. I was trying to clarify what appeared to me to be an ambigous situation."

Clarify an ambiguous situation...hmmm...how about clarifying it to me...help me out, BB...

"Is it not hers to won to not do these things?"

We own our own stuff whether we're consciously owning it or not. Have you got that part? It's important.

Your part..."I feel you lied about AIM. Is that correct?"

"Or is it mine to own to not let it bother me?" How do we not let stuff bother us? If it is bothering us, it truly is bother us...our feeilngs are ours; they are valid. Clarify for me...you're bothered (fearful, suspicious, what?) because this introduced another way for contact which you can't track...is that correct?

"If the latter, that sends me back to the whole why bother to be in a relationship then (I feel like I'm dancing around the critical point of all this, and just can't quite seem to get a hold of it)."

I remember this feeling...what was a relationship to me...all the enmeshment felt like love...why I did it...what would a respectful relationship be like...wouldn't it suck? I believed it wouldn't feel like love...and I was wrong. I had to promise myself to wait until I got there...that this would be something new and I couldn't the result, only choose my purpose (which was to be intimate with my H). Trusting self. Gets mixed up with not trusting others...for good reasons.

Lying to your self won't build self-trust...case in point:

"I guess that's a part of my problem. I feel like I can't share my feelings with her because she gets defensive or tries to put it back on me (more accurately, I feel that she gets defensive and/or tries to put it back on me)."

You feel she stops you from sharing your feelings, based on her possible reaction? What is only in your power, your choice, is under her control?

Hmmm. How?

She can get defensive...that's not you doing it. She can get receptive...not your doing it. She can get anything...and it's hers. You are violating your code and blaming her for it...that's yours.

Until you get that we take offense and we take blame...only way we get those is by TAKING them...then you'll understand that there's a payoff in you to believe this...choose not to hold to your code because of this...find that payoff. It's crippling you...and it's false.

"Why am I the bad guy for having my suspicions?"

Why believe there is a bad guy at all? You aren't owning your own stuff...As soon as you see the two addresses..."Wow...I did ask you to delete those, didn't I? I feel punched in my stomach. I wasn't expecting to see him in your email."

That owns your thoughts..."I believe you're in contact because I don't believe in ignoring signs you might be. I did fantasy, to the detriment of our marriage. I do reality. What's up with his addresses?"

Yeah...direct...you know this...are you subscribing to the belief you can drive MP from the marriage? You can't. Not in your human power.

Have you read up on Conflict Avoidance? Passive Aggressive behavior? You aren't broken, BB...you're reactive.

And you know you're choosing to be reactive.

Find your payoff. Own your reactivity...your focus has slipped onto MP and I think, uhm, maybe it's being consumed over there.

"If I asked her to consider not e-mailing/texting any of her male friends, I don't think she'd go for that." That's why it is POJA...not BS setting the boundaries alone.

"Whether I'm willing to ask for that, or accept her decision, is my problem not hers. That I do recognize." WS don't earn the F until we know what we can do to protect our weaknesses...for our own benefit, and for the marriage.

It's a growth thang.

"but I have never had a problem apologizing to someone if I hurt them,"

Define this...if they feel hurt, do you say, "I'm sorry you feel hurt." Or do you own what isn't yours, "I'm sorry I hurt you--didn't intend to."

Which is truth? Important details, don't you think?

How does it feel to you if I say, "BB? I see you're taking this as hurtful. I'm sorry." Isn't that saying you're sorry they are perceiving it as hurtful, rather than hurt? What are you trying to cover here, BB? Why apologize for something you did not do..."I said I felt punched in my gut when I saw OM's email addresses...you said I hurt you by saying that." Are you gonna say "Sorry for hurting you?"

Huh?

"even if I didn't fully agree or understand their point of view." Here's the DJ, full blown and harmful. Strive to understand, then be understood. Only apologize for your own mistakes...part of the amends. People will feel hurt. Be honest anyway. Delineate your limits, BB. You're getting tangled in your own lines.

"If I don't apologize, then don't I invalidate her feelings?" Validation by apology...hmmm. Nope. Validation..."I hear you feel hurt, attacked, put down and distrusted." That's validation. "I'm sorry you feel hurt, attacked..." that's stealing validation...taking what isn't yours...inserting your emotions over hers.

Now for your email...

I like lists. I get lost in words when I'm resistent to them.

Here's the list I got from your email...

My number one is need is intimacy. Knowing you as you are, and being known as I am.

Intimacy (openness and honesty)

My way to intimacy is through

--Communication--can you help me with this?
--Time and Attention -- feels like admiration to me.
--Domesic Support
--Family Commitment

I want to learn to communicate by doing exercises. I want to learn to listen, understand, and stop taking personally what isn't about me.

BB...if you want to go back in your letter and switch each "we" with I, (ownership), then you'll get better how you do what she does, also.

Owning would be, "I am committed to being honest and transparent to you. I need that balance both ways, from and to."

I think you will be thinking about what you're craving most, you're giving least...look at that sentence...and your closet CA concern...

Why not try no online male friends for six months? Why not? Where's the harm in asking? If you want something all new...then the old has to go, doesn't it? Doesn't mean forever...maybe you will get to another realization and change...or maybe she will...for now, it would be reasonable. And friends of the marriage will understand...friends of hers, not of the marriage, won't.

A culling.

Last paragraph..."I'm proud of myself. I LB'd and caught myself. I haven't done that before. You were great in the way you chose to respond to my LB. Thank you."

My 49 cents...thinking of you...sorry only day access for now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow LA, That was great, I wish you had the time to do that kind of stuff for me.

Broken- I'm sorry to hear that you are having such a rough time right now! I can see why you haven't had time for much of anything! Very understandable! I am having a similiar issue with a keychain and OW's home and cell numbers in his cell phone! I have asked for it to me deleted! So, I can understand where you are coming from on that issue. I think it's time that I address the issue also.

I'm not sure I understand about owning my own stuff, maybe you or someone else can do that on my thread sometime! So, I don't high jack your's! LOL

I'll be keeping up with you a little more closely. I'll pray that you and MP resolve the issues that you are having! Please try to have a great day and night!

Take care!

Hi, NC...

In my case, I deleted OW's number from his cell...during his A...and he put her back in...and I'd delete her...until he recommitted...then no more in the cell.

He still lets me check his cell, even after a year and half of no contact...because I owned my need...didn't make it his thing...my choice.

I own what is mine, NC...and BB knows this...reading his thread, CompletelyLost's, DazedandConfused's...lots of them...switch genders and you have your own story...I own my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perspective and perception.

All mine.

You can, too, NC. We have human power--God's design. And human limits. They aren't what we were told they were when we were growing up.

Be well, NC...you have a lot of wonderful people on your thread...

LA

Hi NC -


LA is a very special person, that's for sure. I often wonder if she ever finds time to sleep, given the amount of insightful and helpful posts she makes on a daily basis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You might want to check out her Owning all Your Villagers Thread - she's got a number of people doing an exercise that helps you identify your villagers (I'm supposed to be doing it to, but haven't set aside the time yet).


It's a combination of being busy at work and working on my marriage that limits my posting/reading time. It is a rough time, but I suspect (especially based on some of the things LA's pointed out to me) that I may very well be making it more difficult than I need to.

Yes, I think you should address the issue of your husband's cell phone. Just as I need to address similar issues with my wife. In her case, I think it's more a case of just being lazy than an actual intent to make contact. Heck, I still have OM's information on my computer (he was, prior to this mess, my friend). Of course, I'm hanging on to it in case I need it (Which is really more of an excuse for me to be lazy, I think). I don't have any intention of contacting him, though I could think of a number of things to say to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


No need to worry about highjacking my thread - it's not really mine. I started it in an effort to get ideas, and it kind of metamorphed into what it is now (not that what it is now is a bad thing). LA has been very helpful to me, even though I fear I'm going to cause a dent in her forehead one of these days from making her bang in her head on her desk one too many times due to my incredibly dense head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thanks. We can use all the prayer we can get. It's proven itself to be the single most important and effective weapon in my arsenal these last 8 months, even though I don't use it as often as I should.

Feel free to post on this thread whenever you like <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh..if you want to see my original thread (which I quit updating some time ago), it's here - Hurt and Lost I guess I should update it one of these days, and maybe change the title. I'll warn you upfront - there's some pretty ugly stuff in there, but I'm not hiding anything (which really surprised our first MC...never could figure that one out...I want to save my marriage, so why would I hide anything?).

Ok. We had another MC session last night. Our sitter was 45 minutes late, and MP was not feeling well but she wanted to go (I gave her the option of rescheduling, though we'd already had to reschedule this session once, and she still wanted to go).

It was...something of a downer for me. Our MC asked me to leave at the beginning. MP told me that he wanted her to be able to answer questions without feeling pressured by me for a certain answer. Ok. Fair enough. I'd like to know what he asked (since I'm a curious kind of guy), but I could probably make a pretty good guess (which would be wrong anyway) based on how the session went.

It was a great opportunity for me to practice listening and not getting angry/defensive, that's for sure. I nearly had to bite my tongue a number of times.

The only thing that really pissed me off (and I need to bring it to his attention) is when, towards the end of the session (our 4th or 5th with him), he said that MP had hurt me terribly, but my hurting her for years drove her to that.

I do not believe it was his intention to justify MP's affair, but it sure sounded like it. I can believe a lot of things, and I can change my point of view on a lot of things, but NOTHING will ever justify MP's affair in my eyes.

Ok...so I wound up feeling really attacked last night. Our counselor kept bringing up the things that I had done wrong in our marriage, and basically left me feeling like I hadn't done anything to fix them and more or less needed to suck it up and fix myself.

To her credit, and my extreme gratitude which I expressed to her immediately upon entering the car to go home, MP did state that I am getting better with my anger and self-control. At least someone's willing to give me some credit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MP and I had a long talk on the way home. I asked her how she felt the session went, and she said she felt it was good.

I told her that I would probably need a couple of days to process it, because I was feeling somewhat down. At this point, MP amazed me by accurately stating what was on my mind while I was still trying to put together the words!

To wit, "You are being asked to lead and do most of the work, and you don't think that's fair."

Bingo. She nailed it in one. Yes, that is how I feel, and to be honest I'm tired of it. I've been in this mess for 8 months, and there are times when I feel that I'm the only one doing anything.

Very carefully, very slowly, and very gently we engaged in conversation all the way home. My goals were to not get angry, not get defensive and to really listen to what MP had to say, and to keep my body language relaxed. I think I did...

We discussed my feeling that I wasn't getting credit for what I was doing, and I was beginning to feel that no matter what I do, it's not enough.

MP's position (we were talking about the anger part here) was that yes, I had acknowledged it and taken ownership of it, but that I hadn't shown her that getting it fixed was a priority, and that showed her a lack of repentance on my part. To be more specific, she gave me a list of anger management workshops that I have not yet followed up on, and I had not yet followed up on a local workshop that my IC recommended to me. Ok. Valid points...I haven't and I don't have a good excuse (I am busy, but I'm also lazy).

We also discussed physical affection (touch), and that it's still an on-again off-again issue (I'm trying to improve that as well).

My biggest frustration is that I feel I'm the only one owning my issues, and she is not owning hers. If there had never been an affair, and we were in this spot in counseling, I'd be a little more understanding, because I did fail her in many ways as her husband.

But dammit! She did have an affair, and she is, by her own admission, not sorry. Where is her role in all this? I'm supposed to fix all my problems so then she can decide whether to stay or not? WTF?!?

I don't like rollercoasters, and I don't like mountain climbing either - especially when all I get is another mountain to climb.

I know what I need to do, and I am working on it. I am painfully aware of the danger of complaceny, and I think (or like to think at least) that I drive myself as hard as I drive anyone else.

I just don't get this. I think I'll ask Lemonman if I can be the poster child for his signature saying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Despite my frustration, last night's talk was good, I think. I did get to practice listening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In fact, I was feeling better until shortly before we got home.

We have some problems in SF (mainly because the emotional connection she had with me has been lost for a long time, and the A brought this to light). It's an area we're working on, but last night she told me that there are times when she doesn't want it, but gives it to me because I need it.

That really, really hurt. I don't need, nor do I want, sympathy sex. I fully understand that there are times when one partner will give sex to the other without really wanting it themselves, and that is (to me) part of being married (1 Corinthians 7 applies). But the way she said it made me feel that she really didn't want to do it, and it was out of obligation.

See, the problem here is that I am (in my mind) not wired like the average guy. I actually need the emoitional connection in sex, or it leaves me feeling....dirty, I guess. Sure, there are times that I need the physical release just like anyone else, but...to know that she gives it to me out of a sense of obligation...it makes me feel like I'm using her. I want her, not just her body.

Ok...that's my Wednesday vent. So yeah...I'm a tad upset. I do feel that the situation I'm in is unfair to me. She wants all these things from me, but she has no remorse over the affair nor does she care that she hurt me so badly. She commented last night (again!) that I'm fragile now - well, no ******, Sherlock! You think? When she says that, I feel like she's telling me to get over it already.

I will get over it. That I know. It remains to be seen if we're still a couple when I get over it.

Sigh. I know there are positives in all this (she doesn't want to spend time with me, but she's willing to to make this work, and she's still struggling between doing what she wants and what she knows is right, which gives me hope as well). I'm just tired of feeling like I'm the bad guy here. I didn't go out and screw another person, and I'm actively trying to better myself and make amends for my past wrongs. I don't get that feeling from MP.

Yeah, I know. That's not her problem. It's mine. I'm still struggling with that one. I'm supposed to take all the crap that she has tossed in my lap by her actions and be happy all the time?

All I can say is WOW! I wish I could give you some words of advie but I'm out of the loop on that one. All I can see from that is, I see that you are trying to make a difference, but Mp's love bank is so low, for whatever reason, she's incapable of feeling remorse or anything else that you need her to feel right now! Hence, not wanting to spend time with you!

Babysteps, Broken... I get the feeling you're a go get it kind of person! well, if that's the case, you're going to have to learn to relax a little! I'm that type, you say get it done and I'm there before the decision on what needs to get done is decided on. H always tells me, I jump the gun. Is that the case with you? Look at all the good things you and Mp are doing! If you don't see them, we do!

Thank you so much for letting me post here. I'm going to check out LA's post and see what's going on.

LA...I'm really starting to understand about owning...thanks...I also appreicate the comment on the great people on my thread...I completely agree, they are some wonderful people...so, do you think that I would LB if I deleted it or got rid of the keychain? Say, instead of telling him or asking him? I'll like to see how long it takes for him to even notice!

NC...

You had asked him...and he didn't. To ask again or to tell would be redundant...respect that he knows your desire...

I would delete and get rid of the keychain. If your WH has committed to no contact and to see if the marriage is salvagable...then I would...I did. However, I did not while there was contact.

Great advice to BB, too, NC...

Hey, Bird!!! (Remember when I kept calling you BB and others did Bird...and now you're BB and I want to call you Bird...do you think there's some Passive Aggressive (PA) in me or what?)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are wrestling your own angel for a blessing, BB...you are sweating, shouldering, griping and scrounging for a hand-hold to get this blessing...and the angel is you.

"(I am busy, but I'm also lazy)."

DJ to self...have you looked for PA in you, BB? Have you calmly, openly, looked for what you are reluctant to promise, resent the promise, and then do not fulfill the promise because of the resentment...the UNFAIRNESS of it? Does the promise buy you time...and no, not just in marriage, parenting or work...all over...a tick, a trait, a habit of sorts...

I admitted me to mine...(and will as they arise)...wanna admit to yours?

You cannot be lazy...I believe it is a word implanted in us as children that does not exist at all...human beings are...beings...we've been over this...not doings...to speculate to your own laziness is to view it in others...like MP.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Did I dare?

Yup.

Here's why:

"I know what I need to do, and I am working on it. I am painfully aware of the danger of complaceny, and I think (or like to think at least) that I drive myself as hard as I drive anyone else."

Great honesty...stay with that honesty...you drive yourself as hard as you drive anyone else...can you see the disrespect?

Can you drive others?

No.

You can be driven mad by your own expectations and belief you drive others...you can't. Not humanly possible. Even at work, you manage others...can't drive them...because they choose to follow...we can lead like crazy, and be alone, unless others choose to follow...MP chose to go to MC...she is choosing to stay...you DJ you and HER when you think it is all about you changing...not her...she's changing, choosing, not in your timeframe.

Remember SAA? The timelines are off...you keep dealing with 8 months and she is only dealing with what, a month, of true no contact? See, that's a disparity and you're using it like a club to thwack yourself.

You could stop. You're gonna be blessed, BB...no wrestling required. The wrestling is you craving proof, security, PROTECTION, and correction...like a thirst that can't be quenched...how about addressing these inside you...they are yours...first?

If you're hearing MC say you brought on MP's affair, then call the MC on it...respectfully, with ownership...

"I hear you saying that my actions forced my wife into adultery, is that correct?"

Be open to others' truth...you don't want MP assuming (then again, maybe you do?) about your truth...don't do that with the MC's. Your commitment to O&H is for you, BB...you're worth every effort, thought, awareness, internal praise and examination you exert...you're worth it.

Your goal is to love, honor, embrace, accept and celebrate your true self...that homecoming...and God's giving you this within the context of your marriage...saving yourself...and you're hearing blame, accusation....judgment.

Can't see the olive branches for the trees?

Oh, that was awful. I'm leaving it in.

I enjoy your humor...very much. Your clarity. I want to see those acts of kindness for you as in understanding the 3-year-old code...and where you are now...

You want to be done climbing, falling, rising, plummeting...and that will only happen when you get to your beliefs causing those sensations...not for anyone else outside yourself to do...

And you're worth it. You're worth Everest...you truly are. And you're not alone. We're all out there climbing and falling, where you can't see...even MP...choose to believe that and trust that...our journeys...yours hitched to someone else...not caused, controlled or cured by...because that's not in God's design.

When you feel like you want what you want, how you want it and when (NOW!), know that's your little boy inside...full of pain...instead of wrestling that seemingly external angel, hold that sweet, complete child within...know that pain, how much from fear, anger, injustice...and console him...and don't act from him...no decisions in that place...just true awareness and comfort...you'll re-center yourself and know this is about you...not her.

Whatever you're craving for her to do...ownership...is most likely what you're least doing yourself. You might believe you are...come here and check it out. You know I've got a BB-branded 2x4 you...and I will take off the velvet padding.

((((Bird))))

LA

Oh, LA...I need some honesty like that in my life...I loved it! Bravo!!! Do you hear the roar of the crowd? LOL It's like being inside Tiger Stadium! WOW, what a rush!

We love you so much, Broken! You are an amazing person! I hope that you don't feel like we're beating you down, because we're not! I haven't even read all of your posts, but I can tell in the last few days, there's amazing things happening in your M. We're all scare of change, whether it's good or bad! Don't be scared, life can be a wonderful place if you let it! I have to learn the hard way, and I have the scars to remind me everyday of the lowest point in my M. I decided that day it's up to me and only me to make my world a better place. At least, I don't have to stumble around in the dark thanks to wonderful people like you, LA, Hurting, LH, And all the other MBs.

You're doing a wonderful job, keep up the good work, and re read what LA said!

Been a long couple of weeks for me. I did manage to sort some things out, though I'm not sure it puts me in any better spot than I was previously.

By the end of week before last, I figured out that I'd gotten off track again. I was focusing more on what MP was or wasn't doing than what I was or wasn't doing.

So I missed meeting her expectations. That sucked. Then last week at work I learned that I was missing my manager's expectations on something I was working on (or more accurately, not working on hard enough). I'm seeing a trend here.

My BIL went through a series of jobs once - getting fired from one and then the next, and so on. Don't remember how many. I do remember commenting to MP that if a person gets fired from one job, well, that happens sometimes. But if the same person gets fired from a series of jobs, then they should probably take a good look at themselves to see what it is about them or their situation that leads to their unfavorable termination.

So...I'm missing other people's expectations all around. If it was just one person, or one situation, I wouldn't sweat it much. But it appears to be fairly wide-spread - I'm sure I'm missing God's expectations too, but He hasn't stopped by to say that in so many words.

Part of me wants to ask why do other's get to have expectations of me, when I don't get to have expectations of them? Something seems out of balance there, but it's probably my perspective.

So I need to work on me some more. I'm getting real tired of working on me. But I think that what I'm really saying is that I don't want to work on me unless I get what I want, the way I want it, when I want it.

LA asked if I was PA. Might be...hadn't really thought about it until recently, but I might be. I do think I have a CA streak in me that I've never acknowledged before. I can look over my life and see that I generally don't like conflict - I prefer for things to get resolved quietly and quickly - but to my satisfaction.

So my CA tendencies lead to more conflict. I want something solved, but don't want to speak up about it for fear of making an argument. But then it doesn't get resolved, so I get pissed and things get worse.

Kind of goes hand-in-hand with not making your needs known, and then getting upset when they're not met. That whole self-fulfilling prophecy.

I guess what I struggle with under this whole owning your actions and not placing expectations on other people is that it is much too laissez-faire for me. Within life, people have to fulfill certain roles, and with those roles come expectations. It's part-and-parcel, and I can't figure out how to separate the two.

Prime example. We're in a bit of a financial bind with the IRS right now (though we can get it resolved quickly, I think). I'm losing almost a grand a month in my salary to the Federal government because we haven't filed 2004 yet. We haven't filed yet because (until about a week ago) I've been waiting, and waiting, and waiting on my wife's information from her in-home business. My expectation was that she would get the information to me in a timely manner. She didn't, despite my repeated requests and offers of help in whatever manner would help her.

So now I'm having to juggle financial obligations, as well as taking her data and getting it into our tax program, all because she wouldn't get the info to me in time. So yeah...I was pissed (and have been for quite some time), and let her know it last night (wonderful way to end a not so good long weekend).

But yet I feel that I'm not allowed to have the expectation that she will do her part in regards to family finances? Something's not adding up here, to me.

There are so many things that frustrate us both right now. She is, in my opinion and experience, not a person to apologize. She will take action to not repeat things that upset others, but she doesn't like to apologize. I, on the other hand, prefer a heartfelt verbal I'm sorry along with fixing or not repeating the mistake/isssues that led to the apology. (She did apologize for not trying harder to get the tax info to me for 2004.)

Ok...so I finally vented my anger over the tax issue. Now it's my job to let the anger go and not hang on to it (I'm good at hanging on to anger, in case you hadn't noticed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). But that still takes me back to my original question - why am I the only one not allowed to have expectations? That seems highly unfair. If that's just the way it is, I can learn to work with it. Ain't gonna like it though.

I had a 4 day weekend. Not the best...lots of anger with MP this weekend. Some bright spots, but overall it pretty much sucked. My anger control (what little I have) seems to have taken it's own vacation. I guess I'm still stinging some from our last MC session and the little debacle at work. It's very frustrating to be trying to meet people's expectations only to be told that you're not, and getting no recognition for what effort you are putting in. Honestly, I'm getting tired of splitting my chin on the stupid bar simply because the person(s) holding it raised it and didn't tell me before I started my run.

I can be (theoretically) the best person I can be, and people can still hold the bar up to high for me. This is not a good time to be raising the bar on me...I have no emotional reserve to deal with sundry little crap, and when something triggers my anger it usually has a cascading effect, which is highly counter-productive to what I'm trying to accomplish.

To go back to the tax issue, my anger there leads me to start thinking about all the other things I'm upset with MP about (the A, stuff before the A) and pretty soon I don't even want to be around me. I'm balking at having to swallow all this stuff, but the end result is I wind up wallowing in it.

There are bright spots. Monday night I was working on cleaning/sorting the stuff in our garage, and MP came out and asked me how motivated I was to keep working (it was around 10 PM), and I said somewhat, and then she asked if I wanted to shower (it was 90 degrees Monday and I'd been in the garage for the better part of 6 hours) and then watch a movie upstairs. Good idea - so we did, though I was so tired I passed out halfway into the movie.

NC is right - I do want it now, all of it. I have less patience than my 4 year old daughter. I want the pain and the uncertainty to end. I want my life to run the way I want it to, and I want to be able to put reasonable expectations on people and have them meet them. I want to be able to express myself honestly (without anger) and have MP actually understand and hear me, rather than defend herself with (in my opinion) [email]half-@ss[/email] reasons.

We have so far to go, and it seems at times unattainable. One of the things that I decided after our MC session was that I needed to concentrate more on showing MP physical affection, so I tried to keep that foremost in my mind, and to really work on that. So last Thursday (after about a week of my trying to focus on that), she seemed upset, and we got to talking, and she told me that she couldn't remember the last time I touched her.

Another expectation I failed to meet. Even though I knew I had been trying to meet it. One can only try so long before giving up. (Yes, I can see how I can give the same feeling to other people - why bother dealing with BB? Nothing makes him happy.) I wasn't angry about this particular thing. Very hurt and disappointed, yes, but not angry. I was able to point out several instances where I had shown her physical affection. The fact that she couldn't remember tells me that she's at a point where she's so used to not getting it from me that she doesn't recognize it when she does, or that her and I have wildly different definitions of physical touch (I told her these two things). If it's the latter, then she needs to give me concrete examples and definitions of what it means to her, or I'll never meet it.

Something related....slightly. One of her complaints is that I've never tried to get to know the real her. My counter is that she's never opened herself up for me to do that. Her counter is that I should take the time and discover who she is...

Ok....so on the one hand she complains that I'm not open enough with her for her to get to know me, but on the other hand I have to investigate to discover who she is without her opening up to me? Anybody else here see the double-standard in that?

Some days I just don't think I have it in me. MP asked me several weeks back if I married her because I was tired of being alone. I almost laughed....not to be rude, but because I would never marry for that reason. Getting married was not, is not and never will be a check-box on BB's personal list of things required to make him happy. I was never on a mission to get married. If I met someone in life that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, then great. If not, that was great too. I have no problem being single.

I'm tired. I'm angry. I'm cranky. Things are not going my way and I'm tired of trying to change them. Yes, LA - I'm getting the inner child reference now, at least somewhat. Still trying (and failing) to figure out the whole separate but equal thing. Still trying to figure out who I am.

As for wrestling with angels...my first thought when I read that was Jacob. Except Jacob won his battle and got away with just a sore hip. And became the father of the tribes of Israel. Jacob was a far, far better man than I (yes, I know...DJ alert).

My timeline may be off....I look at the whole picture, not starting from NC. If NC is just established, then I have what...6 months? 1 year? 2 years? more of this to go through before I see anything positive? God help me if that's the case, because I know I don't have that in me.

If everything is within me, and everything (from my perspctive) derives from me and my attitudes and beliefs, then again I question why have relationships at all?

Sorry for the lengthy post. I'm in a rut and have obviously either not gotten it yet, or have not yet decided to get it. Perhaps (and this is both scary and depressing) I simply don't have it in me to change, and I actually like being 150% dysfunctional in normal society?

Hey, broken, good to hear from you...

I see that you are doing a lot of great things, trying some new things, and that's wonderful...thing is I see you giving up so easily...Is it because you're not getting the desired reaction that you want and skipping the reaction you're really getting? You could be missing out on a lot if you keep expecting to see something that's not there and missing the what's right under your nose?

It's beautiful how no two people can react the same to a situation. You are under a lot of added stress right now. Given that you are being pulled from all corners you are bound not to achieve everything that's set before you.

Remember when you were in school and you had a "C" in one subject and an "A" in the other. Parents told you to bring that "C" up, so you concentrated so hard on that one subject you ended up bring the other grade down! Life, I think, is about finding you're happy balance or medium. I think you may not be taking the time to stop and smell the roses. If you don't your going to set yourself up for failure.

Take a breather, what are the good things about you and MP right now? You're beautiful kids, how are they doing? Have you made them smile lately? What else is great about your life even with the tax problem right now? God's blessed you with another wonderful day, and opportunity to change things and be grateful for what you have!

There was only one thing I was concerned about that I read you wrote:

Quote: I was never on a mission to get married. If I met someone in life that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, then great. If not, that was great too. I have no problem being single. End Quote


You wrote in the past tense then changed to the present tense in your last sentence. Could this be another attempt to set yourself up for failure? Could you be writing the ending to your book now? Saying well my M isn't worth all that hard work it deserves and because I'm choosing to be hard headed and stubborn, I might as well not even begin the effort.

BIRD- What does that sound like to you? What if you where hearing that from someone else? Can you give me your hand, and please pick yourself up? You have all the support in the world, right here, and you're as least acting three, not four! LOL

You are doing a great job... keep up the good work...today may not look so good, but tomorrow will be so much better...
now click your heels...three times...and say "There's no place like HOME!" lol, smile, that was funny!

Ouch...running into the bar really smacked me...you wrote an image that will stay in my brain for days...and have me rubbing my upper lip...gee, Bird...welcome back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

With the tax issue...could you tell me why you didn't file 2004 married filing separately? Leave her stuff to her? Her delay to her? I don't know the tax laws, but a letter stating why you're not filing jointly might have helped...I dunno. Those guys have spouses, too.

I hear the fairness issue back in your life...your brain...and I understand. All this work on you...where's the payoff from others? Is that what I'm hearing?

No bashing today...just know that you're in the middle of a huge life lesson...you might have felt like you were through it...and it hits you again in the face...

Did you read any of Bradshaw? Healing the Shame that Binds Us, and his Homecoming?

You're seeing and hearing through a damaged filter...MP's question about you marrying her was about her, not you...her fear...I asked my H the same question...it was about me, not him.

They are setups...to seem about you when they aren't. Your focus is on her...again...not you...your affection as choice...not measured or charted...and it's harder to reach without the external reward...and easy as butter when you've got immediate internal reward, active, each time.

NC's got it nailed...your perspective is you're being hit from all directions...and I believe, you're hitting yourself the most...you don't see yourself living up to your own expectations...which are yours...not anyone else's...and her withdrawal is hers...takes time...and you've run yourself down inside...time for some intense self-care, enforced boundaries, and no more R talk except for 20 minutes a week...negotiate what you need...state what you feel, think and believe...for you...that's you being O&H, living up to what is your own...

You may find your world rounder, more generous and loving than you imagined...when you are, to you.

I'll take you rain-soaked, emotionally bedraggled and dog-dragged, Bird...anytime...as long as you're here. You matter.

LA

Ok...I owe replies on the thread again...I will get to them.

Having a bit of a rough day right now. Got triggered, and not sure how to proceed.

This morning MP was downstairs trying to get pictures off our digital camera, but the downstairs computer is running like a slug right now (probably because the HD is darn near full). I noticed that she was running a chat program...

Theoretically, all chat programs had been uninstalled, though I know of 2 (one's not really a chat program) that she has on her laptop.

Running the one downstairs is a trigger becaue most of the communication with OM was via IM or phone, given the geographic separation (not far enough, in my opinion. Sending him to Pluto would be a small start...).

I did not leap to the instant conclusion that she was contacting him, because I don't have any hard evidence and a lot of things would seem to point that contact is not going on.

I did, however, start the program up at lunch, to see if she had deleted OM's screen names. Alas, she hadn't (she's also only run the program about 3 times in the last 6 months).

I did send her an e-mail telling her that it made me feel unsafe and uneasy, and that I was not accusing her of anything. I also asked again that she remove all entries for OM from IM programs, e-mail address books, cell phone, etc.

What did disturb me, and still has me uneasy, is that I saw a third screen name for OM. I did not know until a few months ago that he had a screenname on that particular service (he has them on 2 others, with one being his primary one). I brought this up with MP back then, saying that I was concerned that with this one particular service installed on her cell phone the potential for contact existed.

She told me, to the best of my recollection, that she didn't even know he had a screen name on that service.

No matter how I slice it, that was a flat out lie, because I saw his screen name on the program I looked at today (it's an all-in-one chat program that runs multiple services).

This, coupled with what I sense to be some distance between us recently, and the fact that she's under a lot of stress, but either doesn't know what's causing it, or won't say, has me a little nervous.

Ok...so trying to apply what LA and NC have been beating into my head here. I'm hurt that my wife apparently chose to lie to me yet again. I'm worried about renewed or ongoing contact. These are my feelings to own, so I will own them.

Why do I worry about the lie? Because she's setting up a track record of lying or evading my questions, which leaves me wondering what shoe is going to drop out of the sky next.

Why do I worry about renewed or ongoing contact? Because as long as OM is in the picture, we can't recover. And I can't continue my efforts at marital recovery indefinately while I wait for her to get off the fence (if she's even sitting on it, which she may not be).

It's the uncertainty of the whole situation, in a nutshell.

So how to approach it?

I guess a straight-forward way. Something like "When I ran the program, I saw OM's IM screen name on your buddy list, yet you told me months ago that you did not know he had a screen name on that service. That's the same service you have on your phone, which leaves me fearful of renewed contact."

Is that an adquate statement of ownership?

I know a lot of the tension could be because of last weekend, where I failed to maintain a safe environment for her. I accept responsibility for that. I can't undo it, I can merely try harder.

She has (and will probably point out) that she has told me the last 3 times there has been contact. I will agree with that. However, all 3 times were via methods that I could have found out about the contact. I can't easily check her cell phone for IM conversations, nor can I check 2 of her e-mail addresses that I don't have access to (found out about the 2nd one today, though it may be part of the IM service).

It's the little things like this that set back my rebuilding trust in her, and make me feel like I might as well give up.

On the other hand, she posted comments to two of my recent blog entries, and even showed affection in one of them. So its not like she's shutting me out in the cold.

Honestly, I just want to know what's going on, and for her to be completely transparent. If I'm going to lose, then just tell me. Don't treat me like a mushroom (keep me in the dark and feed me sh*t <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

((((Bird!))))

"I'm hurt that my wife apparently chose to lie to me yet again. I'm worried about renewed or ongoing contact. These are my feelings to own, so I will own them."

Here is your truth, moreso than what you thought...

"I'm hurt you chose to lie to me again. I feel anger, pain, fear and fresh betrayal. I know you understand and choose to lie, anyway. I know I've communicated my devastation and distrust...how much each little thing means to me that you choose to do to be transparent and honest...how much it honors our marriage. LB's erase 20 solid things we do. I messed up Monday. I made withdrawals. Today, you did, also. What do you propose we do?"

Lying is an LB...keep it in the context it is...

You aren't just addressing contact (her telling you three times)...you are addressing her not taking extraordinary measures to PREVENT contact.

You're not wrong, crazy or failing, Bird...you truly are not. What you aren't doing is speaking...just speaking.

No explanations...background or talkarounds...plain truth.

"I felt the blow to myself Monday...and it was compounded today. I am emotionally tiring from these blows. I do not feel safe with you, to connect to or trust."

Simple truth...with the impact of your soul. You speaking for you...not results. Your truth matters...only NOT speaking it tells Self that's a lie...and it isn't.

Speak...your truth.

She knows all you've said before...that contact continues the affair...no recovery, no withdrawal, with contact.

"I have no power to protect myself or the marriage. Only you have that choice and I am asking you to choose extraordinary precautions to prevent contact, in any way."

When you're honest, Bird...you can't lose.

LA

LA -

Thanks as always for your responses.

MP and I did talk some last night. I am, I think, starting to get a few things through my thick head finally. Whether or not it'll actually stick this time remains to be seen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NC said something a few posts back about MP's LB being very low or even empty (or maybe even overdrawn). I think that's an accurate statement. I've also realized that my LB is being slowly but surely drained as well....

But here's the rub. I think I'm draining my LB as well. How? I'm allowing myself to dwell on negatives and hang on to resentment and anger, and while that in and of itself may not be a huge withdrawal, it's blocking deposits from MP (in plain english, I can't or won't allow myself to see the good).

I'm in a very dangerous spot right now. I told MP last night that I'm feeling more and more like I'm on the verge of a total shutdown. That's a tad scary, for me. Well, probably for her to. I'm sure the last thing she wants is a catatonic husband <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So what came out of last night's conversation? And how did I process it through BB's warped, damaged and generally dysfunctional filter(s)?

I started out by telling her I was concerned because I felt an emotional distance between us the last few days that I hadn't felt in quite a while. She acknowledged that, and said that she didn't feel safe opening up to me. Last weekend was a disaster - probably the absolute worst in terms of my anger control (or complete lack thereof) all year. She told me that she was scared that I was going to hit her on Tuesday. I have never hit her, and I have no intentions of doing so. I also know that it's a very fine line from kicking a pole or hitting a wall to hitting a person.

If I hit her, she's gone. She's made that abundantly clear in the past (and I wouldn't blame her).

If I cannot or will not control my anger, I'm going to sabotage this marriage recovery all on my own. One of my tasks today is to try and find an anger management workshop (something I've been trying to do for the last couple of weeks, with not a lot of success). She suggested I use my employer's EAP. I told her I didn't want to do that because word would get back and could put me in a bad spot. She told me that by law I'm protected and word cannot get back to my employer.

In the meantime, I'm trying to deal with my anger when it comes up (so it doesn't build), trying to delve into the reasons for the anger (what cauesd it, rather than the surface emotions attached to it), and once it's expressed (in a constructive manner) to let it go (I'm really good at hanging on to anger). I definately need professional help in this though. Man, it really sucks to admit that.

I also shared with her my concerns and fears over the chat program, and the issue of OM's third screen name that she said she didn't know.

A couple of things came out of it that gave me an opportunity to try ownership...I think.

One thing that MP said regarding my anger was that I seemed to be much more stable when I was doing a daily Bible study. I've been very lax about that in the last few weeks (if ForeverHers or Mortarman read this, I'm going to get a spiritual 2x4 or 3 from them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />).

When I reflected on that statement, my initial reaction was "Once again my wife is giving me spiritual advice - when she's still struggling with the whole repentance to God thing!". Kind of a what's up with that response.

Then I thought about it some more. She wasn't giving me any advice. She was simply making an observation based on her experiences with me over the last few months. There wasn't even an accusation in it. I'm starting to see where I leap to the wrong conclusions or take things the wrong way at times.

She never really answered my question about the third screen name. She reiterated that there is no contact between him and her, and hasn't been any except for the last 3 she told me about (and she listed them, though she had to think a bit to remember all 3).

I was kind of miffed that I felt she had once again dodged my question, or accusation. I told her in our conversation that she had told me she didn't know he used that service or even what his screen name was.

Thinking about it later, I realized that in many ways it doesn't matter. I stated my concern and shared my feelings on the issue. Her reaction is hers to own. She admits it, or doesn't. Not my issue, not mine to control. No reason for me to push, and nothing to be gained by it.

So...am I starting to get the picture? Just a little, maybe?


I had not thought about it in those terms before, or not very much. Being safe. I think I will bring that up next week in our next counseling session. Her pattern of dishonesty/omission/blatant lying makes me feel unsafe and unable to trust her or open up to her.

Other assorted odds and ends...I need a hobby. I had a hobby, but I pulled out of it after the A. First, it was taking up way too much of my time, and detracting from my time with MP and the family (mainly MP). Secondly, it was a recreational activity that was shared with OM. In fact, within that fairly large group, we were both known entities (him probably more than me). At one time I thought about exposing him within that community, but decided not to because things were already getting resolved and it felt to me that I would be doing it more out of retaliation than to end the A. If I had found MB earlier, I might have exposed him to the group - might have cost me a lot in terms of standings with other people, but it would have been worth it. Water under the bridge now. Anyway, that's out as a hobby for me, at least for now. I may return to it in the future, but not until I get a lot of other things sorted out first.

But I definately need a hobby, because I have nothing to focus on now except my family. That's not a bad thing, but I have nowhere/nothing to decompress when I need to. MP is behind me getting a hobby as well. Maybe she's tired of seeing my ugly mug all the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I told MP last night that I feel more and more like I'm on the verge of a total shutdown, she said that I need some downtime away from things. Part of me would love to spend 2 or 3 days away from everything - work, family, life in general. Find a nice hotel room and read books or watch bad made-for-TV movies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I also feel that would be running away from my problems - it's not like 2 or 3 days of a lumpy bed, bad movies and fast food are going to do anything to solve my problems.

Well, I'm rambling so I guess I'm done for now.

One last question:


Umm....doesn't that run counter to what you're teaching me? It sounds like I'm handing MP the keys to making me happy or not, yet I'm supposed to be deriving my happiness from me? Now I'm confused <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh..one more thing I forgot to add.

After our talk last night (well, evening), MP gave me a hug and a kiss and told me not to worry. Easier said than done. It's hard not to worry when I'm not 100% confident that I know everything that's going on (that'd be the control freak in me).

In any case, I'm not in a pissy mood today, and feel much better about things. I'm sure that'll change at some point, and then change again. Such seems to be the cycle.

Now I find myself in an odd spot. I find myself grieving for the loss of the friendship I had with OM (some friend, huh?). He was a friend and something of a mentor as well.

This too shall pass. Some days I positively hate him. Some days I couldn't care less what happens to him. The one thing that doesn't change is that I want him out of our lives forever.