Broken- I have to say I am sooo Proud of you. You really are seeing the light! Before I could move on to the next level, I had to let all of my anger and resentment go. Think about why you have that anger and resentment. What happened to make you hold onto it? Once you understand this, I think you'll be able to understand about expectations. Did your heart feel a little lighter when you figured that out and about the his reaction, her reaction in me post.

I'm very excited to see that you are looking into Anger Management. MP is right, there are laws to protect you in regards to that! I'm very impressed that you realized that MP is making observation that you aren't able to see. I would have to say that's awesome!

You're in the right direction! Way to go!

"So what came out of last night's conversation? And how did I process it through BB's warped, damaged and generally dysfunctional filter(s)?"

Oh! :::sound of a shots firing::: The self-DJs!

:::dramatically clutching my chest and falling slow motion to the floor:::

Ouch, Bird!!

(How's that for opening a post?)

And you wrote that right after you realized how what your mind dwells on becomes your treasure...negativity, resentment, hopelessness...AND after you opened your mouth and spoke your truth...gorgeously!! <--notice new adverb I just invented.

"Man, it really sucks to admit that." It really TAKES a man to admit that. Wow. Give yourself a big pat on self's back and notice your self-image didn't take a hit at all.

"So...am I starting to get the picture? Just a little, maybe?" Ohhh yes...know this, Bird. There's a payoff in expecting the worse, jumping to those DJs...towards self and others...we don't do that which doesn't have a payoff...find that feeble, false payoff...and then let your chest bulge out, strut a little, because the payoff for your honesty is HUGE and real.

You did very well distinguishing an observation from a fixing direction...you missed the first fixer though, so like an aftertaste, you picked up on the observation as one.

When you were sharing your desire to seek help for anger management, she had advice...as if you hadn't already thought of the EAP program...you had, you had misgivings...this is very subtle stuff...she's telling you what you already know and that can feel like she's telling you that you aren't smart, aware or committed...or whatever you think first...in the second part, she tells you that your concern is invalid because of the law...did that really address your fear? Was that new info for you?

You mean MB isn't a hobby?

:::thud:::

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There's a difference between happiness and reasonable protection...she had an A...her power remains her power...same as yours...to harm the marriage or not. She isn't taking precautions which aided in the affair...the IM programs, his names (accessible) on it...is he in her cell phone? On her Christmas list? Can you see where it is the FWS's responsibility to protect the marriage from her weaknesses? That's not making you happy or safe...no more so than if you had a someone flirting with you at the office, making advances, and you did nothing...said nothing...

When you say, "I'm married" then that's reasonable protection. If you'd have had the affair, then I'd say, "I am married and I do believe you are flirting and making advances. Stop it." That would be the extraordinary add on...

You didn't.

You could put it in the analogy of a drug...having him on her contacts list is like having a couple packets of cocaine in the house, unopened...but there. Would that be her making you happy by not opening them?

You are recovering from a huge personal trauma, Bird...you are. Why do you have to be perfect, get it all, all at once? Your OWN expectations of your self-image seem to me to be very high...and that fuels the DJs...the negativity...the emotional exhaustion.

When she hugged and kissed you, she said not to worry...she was telling you what to do in your mind, what to not think...what does that sound like? Can you understand how many of these "comfort" phrases are defining, and will give you that knee-jerk thought, "Easy for you to say" when she wasn't saying it about her? Clarity, Bird. We're going there...sometimes we have to be stringent before we can be lax...more balanced.

Practice your statments..."When you say for not to worry, I don't understand what you mean. Does that mean you are removing him from everything?"

Ahhh...look at your progress! You're getting to grieving the loss of your best friend...the other half of a double betrayal...congratulate yourself...and if you think "Yeah, some best friend" then you'll prolong the process. Yes, he was your best friend...grieve it...talk about grieving it...share your truth...

Yes, I AM a broken record..uhm, that can type.

Five stages of grief...get to know those...

Now, back to the anger...and maybe NC will let me know if I'm just stuck in this perspective from recent immersion, or if I'm close to something...

Have you read the Passive/Aggressive spouse threads? There are two...one by RiverTam and one by StillHereMakingIt...I say this because being the spouse of a P/A...well, you got some symptoms. One of them is being a conduit for their anger...and I was a rager, so I have full faith that it isn't all being done to you...you've got your part...but I was wondering if the part that isn't yours might matter a whole lot.

Each time you post, you help someone, Bird. Thank you for your honesty and bravery. Today, you helped me, yet again.

(What about meditation as a hobby? I was driving home tonight and worrying a thought in my head, around and around, when I caught sight of a sign on a bus...

Staring into space is underrated...

what do you think?)

LA

LA, Broken- I do see a pattern, which broken you recognize earlier today. I'm still learning about PA behavior, but I think it may be a Great investment in your time. It was mine, it explained years of unanswered questions! Let us know what you think. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say. I value your opinions and insight, maybe you can help me understand it better.

You're doing wonderful, keep up the great work!

Lots going on, some good, some bad, none of it (from what I can tell) related to the A at least.

So I talked about the whole PA thing with MP the other night, and we looked up some definitions on the internet. I would say that she's got some definate PA behaviors of her own (and she would agree). There were a few that might match me, but I'm not sure.

The one that came up (for me) is fear of competition. I think that was a red-herring, though not to far off the mark.

It's not so much a fear of competition. It's a fear of losing, coupled with (accurate or not) a perception that I lose way more than I win, which makes me shy away from competition because I believe it's a foregone conclusion that I won't win, no matter what I do. Anyway, next time I see IC I'll bring up PA behavior and see what the IC has to say about it.

Saturday was not a good day. One of the issues we're trying to tackle is that we get a good round of physical affection/SF going, and then it stops for one reason or another and we have to start from ground zero again.

So we got off to a healthy start on Monday (a week ago last Monday), and then life got in the way. So by Friday MP told me she was feeling neglected. I knew she was, and I was too. Things just kept interfering. I was hoping to restart things Friday, but she fell asleep putting DD to sleep.

OK...maybe first thing in the morning...but alas, I woke up and DD had come into our room about 5:30 AM, so much for that thought.

This, coupled with some pretty heavy stuff going on at work (my manager is not happy with me and our company is going through a series of lay-offs) I was pretty frustrated. I expressed to MP my frustration that it seemed like no matter what, nothing I did was good enough for anybody. I wasn't getting any sort of positive feedback or encouragement.

MP feels that I got pretty upset that day. I don't entirely agree, but as I told her I'll accept her feelings on that because their hers. If she feels I was angry, then I need to figure out a better way to express myself.

So later that day if I asked her if she had any positive feedback for me. She said no. I wasn't surprised, but it still hurt like ******. I was at the lowest point I've been in a long time - virtually on the verge of tears. And I absolutely positively hate to cry. I see no value in it for me. It doesn't fix a darn thing, so it's a waste of energy and time.

We talked some more later that night (MIL, SIL and niece were visiting, and we had two of our nephews for the night as well - full house. And before anyone asks, yes I actually like my in-laws <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I told her that I was tired of feeling like I was the bad guy here. Like everybody was telling me that I had been such a terrible husband that I deserved what I got and I should buck up and be a man and take what I got.

Angry outbursts from me really set her back. I know that, and I'm trying to fix it. But sheesh....a little help would be appreciated. I told her that I wanted and needed her help. I need her to tell me when I do something that she feels is AO related - I even referenced Harley's suggestion in LB about the spouse keeping a written record. I doubt she'll do it, but we'll see. Her normal reaction is to withdraw.

Oh yeah...add to the mix that she was suddenly terminated from her job last week, with no notice and what I consider questionable rational at best, so she's got a lot on her mind too. Ironically, I'm trying to view the job loss (and negative impact on our finances) as an opportunity to draw closer. I told her the day it happened that I wasn't in any way angry, upset, or disappointed with her, and that I still loved her. And I promised her I wouldn't panic about money (though I'm very concerned).

So enter yesterday. DD's daycare provider had to close early on Friday, so she offered to watch DD late one day this week to make up for it, so we scheduled it for yesterday. The thought was for me to leave work early so we could get in a date of some sort.

By Monday, I knew that the chances of that happening were slim, because she had to take her mom and sister down to her grandma's (about an hour away). When she called me at 2 to let me know they were leaving (plus running an errand), I knew that the date was off. Dissappointed yes, but I wasn't counting on it. Acknowledgement of it from her would have been nice.

So yesterday was a blur, with her driving a lot and trying to finalize stuff for our DS's mission trip (which is hugely disorganized this year for some reason). She was tired and stressed and her back was bothering her.

I was hoping to have more PA/SF with her - mainly to try and please her, since it's not fair (IMO) for the guy to get all the fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So about 10:30 I got ready for bed. She was catching up on e-mail and stuff. I indicated (more verbally) an interest, and she asked me if I was in the mood, and I told her not in dire need, but would like the opportunity to please her. She finally logged off about 12:30 - I had by that time long given up and started to withdraw from her.

We talked for a bit, and I told her I wasn't angry, but I was hurt and disappointed that she chose communication with her friends over me. That I was trying to keep things going this time, so we didn't fall back into a rut. I don't remember her exact answer, but the essence I got was that I didn't keep making my intention known so she felt I wasn't that interested. I told her that, arrogant as this may seem, I'm her husband and I don't think I should have to compete for her attention.

I'm sure that (as always) it's all my fault. Ok. So be it. Eventually I may figure it out...I hope. I'm not as down as I was on Saturday (on Saturday, I honestly believed I'd be unemployed and divorced by the end of this year).

I told her this weekend that she's starved for intimacy, and I'm starved for time with her. And neither one of us is doing a damn thing about it. I'll be honest, I'm getting real tired of doing all the heavy lifting here.

I'm not the one who had an affair. She wants me to fix everything (well, my anger) and show her affection, but on the other hand she tells me that she doesn't always want me to touch her, and that every other guy she's been with always knew how to meet her needs and please her.

I'm having the deck stacked against me here, people. How am I supposed to overcome all this crap without a single word of encouragement? The thing I keep coming back to is that I know I can get through this as a better person - the question is, is she going to be a part of my life when I do? If I don't get what I want and need from her, if I don't get the help and consideration I feel is due to me from her, then why would I jump back into her arms when I'm a more-or-less whole and fixed person?

She cites neglect as the major contributing factor to her A. I won't deny that I was a negletful husband. But what about her? Time alone with her has been my #1 need - ever since we got together. And it's also the thing she has filled the least. Even when we were dating. The last time I can remember her actually planning a get-away for us was February, 2003 - 3-1/2 years ago. It fell through at the last minute (no fault of hers), and I didn't handle it as well as I should have, but we've been together since May of 99, and I have never gotten anywhere near enough time with her to satisfy my wants.

I feel very much as though I have to become the perfect husband, and then she'll decide if she really wants to stay or not. I would be a little more understanding of that position if there wasn't an affair involved, but there is, and to me that radically changes the dynamics of the situation.

How can someone stay with a person who has severly hurt them and shows no remorse or regret for those actions? I may not have shown enough remorse or regret for my actions, but at least I'm working on it.

Anyway....that's my bi-weekly rant. I'm probably blowing things somewhat out of proportion...and/or suffering from a serious case of BS entitlement.

Tomorrow is our 5 year anniversiary. I picked up her gift today....still need to get her a card. There's talk about a get-away next month (this month was too packed already). Have to wait and see what happens. I'm trying to make some plans, and she's been thinking about it too. I'm not going to expect it or even count on it.

Perhaps that's the key to life? Acknowledge that you don't "deserve" anything and be happy with whatever crumbs people (friends, family, work, etc) offer you and walk around saying "I'm not worthy". If that's the key, then maybe I better find another life, cause that one sure doesn't sound like it's worth having....

I now return you to your regularly scheduled more chipper postings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BB,

You are not neglecting her or your marriage. You are staying aware of what you value most in life...

You are working on stating when you feel angry; not expressing your anger. And you're doing that for you. Not because AO's put her off. Change your intent. Stating your feelings helps in all areas, I believe. Work, marriage, parenting, FOO and friends.

When Rin feels like withdrawing, she does the opposite...she speaks. Then you can withdraw.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Do not accept her beliefs as yours, BB...she DJs all over the place...stop buying into those.

Here's a priority rub...and I know you like your MIL...however...you have plans...MP isn't allowed to change said plans because of anything or anyone else...not kids, not MIL...they are grown people who can get a ride themselves...barring medical emergencies, the marriage comes first. Speak it, know it and believe it. Your choice.

That's what you're missing...fear of competing for priority, I think. Fear of feeling second best or last place...huge issue...some is your expectation (hidden) and some is real. Life doesn't get in the way of marriage when you train yourself to hold to your own priorities.

You don't have to agree...MP thinks you got upset, you don't think so...no agreement necessary; two opinions. They can differ. Knowing your truth is where you're struggling. Know your truth first...listen and repeat hers. Hand it back.

Time alone and intimacy are the same thing...same EN...expressed in two different ways. Tell her that you can only be intimate when you both have time alone...she has to help fill her need making time...making it happen. You'll make sure you're intimate (O&H) when she makes the time.

Win-win...no competition. Now, your resentment levels jumped...lots of things outside of your control...her losing her job; your boss being upset; the company doing layoffs...those are outside your control. Look at all the rest and find your choices...

The chunk of finalizing DS's missionary trip...the extent of commitment is within your (the marriage) control...boundaries in volunteering matters. Same with family (FOO) and friends commitments. These are marital boundaries...for the good of the marriage...not all on you and not all on her...the third-part of your union is The Marriage...and what you may not be able to bring yourself to do for you, you might for The Marriage...

What is all this about her deciding to stay in the marriage or not? I'm confused...she has finally been in NC...correct?

She hasn't recommitted?

All this meeting each others' ENs (attempts, discussion, etc.) isn't negotiation for staying is it?

No...crumbs are for mice...

Settle me on this whole deciding to stay in the marriage or not thing...'cuz that's huge...and you trying to be a perfect husband? What is that, defying God's design? He made you perfectly, not to do perfect.

Bashing over...continue with your heroic journey, which you're still on...just when you though the Hydra and Medea were the tough parts...

Breathe, BB...remember that? Self-soothe with air, meditation...make you the priority because you are worthy, valuable, whole, complete...and competent. You are. Find your voice...speak what you're feeling, thinking and choosing to believe...those words ARE intimacy. You are worth sharing, knowing and being with. Treat yourself this way, too. God's got you in his hands...the ones he formed you with...he does carry you when you can't; loves you through anything; doesn't bring you to what you cannot bear or not grow from...ever...you know that. Remeber that.

You can feel like the bad guy...no one can make you that.

You can feel used and discounted...and no one can do that to you.

You can feel a lot of things from the inside...and see them coming in from the outside...your perspective is priceless, BB...tend it well.

Once, I asked if your goal was clarity...how about now?

When MP says she is feeling neglected, state your truth, agree with her..."Me, too."

Then look into her eyes with no other thoughts but their color, form, and that they are looking back at you (I hope).

Sufficient unto the day, BB...and that's not plural...the day...all we have...all you can do...

Thank you for being here...through it all. You're not alone. You're not wrong, bad or defective...you can't be and you know that...get to really know that...equal...to your boss, your wife, your children...everyone. You are.

LA

BB-You say that you learn from me, well, Brother, I the same.

You are my equal! We both have opinions, thoughts, ideas, feelings, and we both can express those. We are both unique! We are both the same! We both have good days and bad days. If I am am having a bad day and I say something to you in a derogatory tone. Is it your fault? Do you somehow feel that you are responsible for my tone and bad mood?

I was the one having a bad day. I was the one speaking to you, possible taking my day out of you, like that. I chose to do that. You, being the equal, not different from me, should not take my tone to heart or personally. Did you know that I was having a bad day? No! Did I communicate anything other then my tone that I was unhappy with you? Do I always realize what I am doing at the time that I'm doing it? For me, NO! At least, I didn't, I'm more aware now!

Are you aware? I can remember being told as a child, think before you speak...ever heard LA say Rehearse! MP seems to think you are always angry. Do you know how to verbalize your other emotions? What words would you use? In your last post you wrote frustrated twice, angry and disappointed once. I hear a lot of other things perhaps you need to learn a variety of words to express yourself for clarity.

Here's a link if you decided to use more feeling words in you're talks with MP.

Feeling Words

You are doing a wonderful job, BB! In my short time reading your post, I can see a change. You may not be able to because there's too many outside things going on right now for you to focus on yourself (same here with me); however, if you work on you some more the outside stuff may improve also.

Crying is a release of emotions for me. I'm not much into the crying thing either but sometime a good cry will make you feel better. I'm not saying cry to do the poor me thing. I'm saying release the emotions, dust yourself off, and get up kicking and screaming. It's like getting a fresh start. That's my .02!

BB's a happy (well, happier) bird today than recently <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday was our 5 year anniversary. A few weeks ago, I wasn't even sure if MP would want to exchange gifts, though I asked her what she wanted. She suggested I look at her wish list, or get creative and think of something on my own.

I decided to see if I could put 2 or 3 brain cells (if I could find them) together and see what I could come up with.

She had mentioned once or twice in the past couple of months that she needed/wanted a real jewelry box. So I had that running around in the back of my head. A week or two ago I did a search on the internet to see if there was any "theme" associated with 5 years, like there is for 25, 50 and 75.

Indeed there is - traditionally it's wood. Marvelous - since the really nice jewelry boxes are usually wood, perfect combination. So I trapsed (well, drove) down to Bombay Company to see what they had. Our bed is from there, and we have a goal/desire of redoing our entire master bedroom in furniture from there at some point.

They had a very nice jewelry box (several, actually), and the one I opted for had the added bonus of being on clearance (the price wasn't an issue - it just happened that the box I liked the best within our price range was cheaper than it's original price). It's got a number of drawers, is very pretty, and has a mirror in it.

I also got her a bouquet of a dozen roses, of assorted colors. I had them delivered, along with a card. The card tied the colors and number of each color to specific thing(s) in our relationship. I didn't get much of a reaction from the flowers ('twas a little dissappointing, but I reminded myself that I didn't do it for a reaction, I did it as an expression of my love because I wanted to). She did ask me if they sent the wrong number of flowers, because I had written 5 next to one color when I meant to write 2. Poor MP - married to a potential PA husband with anger issues and is illiterate to boot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She definately liked the jewelry box though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She gave me a book and a DVD, and a card. The card was the best thing for me. It was simple, and what she wrote in it gave me hope again. We had, long ago, talked about doing a renewal of our vows at the 5 year mark, plus another ceremony, since our first one we were so busy during it we didn't get a chance to really socialize with our out-of-state friends and family.

Obviously that didn't happen, but she did mention that, and that neither of us thought we'd be where we are now, trying to rebuild our relationship from ground zero, only this time doing it right and doing it better.


I think it's more my fear than anything MP is or isn't doing. Last night's card I think shows that. My wife isn't one to "fake it till you make it". Honesty has been an issue in the last 8 months, but I don't sense anything dishonest in what she wrote. She shared with me her hope for the future - no demands, no expectations, no accusations.

I think a persistent underlying problem for me is that I see things very black and white (unless it serves my purpose to obfuscate things with dabs of gray for my own convenience, which I reluctantly admit I do on occasion). Maybe it's related to what I do for a living (or maybe part of why I do it well, current job issues not withstanding). Programming is very structured, and everything on computers eventually resolves to binary - 1 or 0, on or off, true or false.

Life ain't that simple, and unlike computers, people can't be programmed very well by someone else. As LA has admonished me before, I keep trying to derive my self-respect, my sense of self-worth, and my sense of who I am and my value through my wife. Without my wife, who am I? That's a question that I can't easily answer.

I am impatient, and I tend to get easily frustrated when I don't get the hang of something that interests me or that I feel is important on the first or second try.

I am also learning, albeit slowly, that some of my fears are based upon my own expectations that I put upon others. This morning MP and I were talking before I left for work about intimacy. I'm finally getting it that my focus there is off. While my focus is on pleasing her, I've set up expectations for myself in that realm that don't match up with what she really wants - in other words, I'm measuring my success (or lack thereof) based on what I think would please her, rather than what she has stated (multiple times) will please her.

So yes, I'm trying to be a perfect husband, and I'm doomed to failure because a) no one on this earth can reach perfection in our fallen state and b) my definition of perfect is based upon my perceptions and expectations of what MP views as perfect, rather than her perceptions and expectations.

It's a slow process for me, but I'm beginning to understand how I set myself up for failure by placing expectations on me that I think others have that they never really had or stated.


Intent is the key. It's something that MP is very aware of from me - what is my intent in this? Am I doing it for her, or am I doing it for me? I can say one or the other all I want, but MP knows me well enough to tell the truth. I do believe that my intent is to do this for me because I want to. (She recently did tell me that in the efforts I'm making she does not sense that I'm doing it for her, but that I am honestly doing it for me.) I also know that, at least initially, saving my marriage was a huge driving force behind it, and it was only as things moved along that I took a good look at myself and said "Whoa....you're mis-wired 6 ways to Sunday and you need to change."

I'm an angry, resentful, bitter person in a lot of ways and not a happy camper. I'm impatient and demanding. I'm stubborn and inflexible. This is who I am - it's not me as a husband, a father, or an employee. It is who I am.

Being married didn't make me this way. Being unmarried will not change it. That change can only come from within, with the help of God, and only if I'm willing to allow it. Willing to allow it with all the pain that comes with personal growth.

One of the things that gets lost (for me, at least) in the day-to-day ups and downs is the MB principle behind plan A. It's all about you (see...look....plan A gives me the chance to say it's all about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). Making you a better you.

A well-adjusted, patient, happy man, who deals with things from his mind, not his heart. Who is slow to anger, and quick to love. Who looks within himself to define who he is. Gotta admit, that's a much more attractive spouse than the one MP currently has. Heck...if I was single I might even marry him (assuming I was female <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

No matter what happens, I will always have to deal with people, in one fashion or another. So I might as well concentrate on making me the best me I can be, so I can deal with others as equal but separate.


Interesting perspective. I've never really viewed The Marriage as a third part, separate from me and MP. I tend to view it all as one (I doubt that surprises you, given the level of enmeshment I've shown). I'll have to work on this one.

The one thing (or one of many, I should say) that I have realized over the last few weeks is that the single biggest obstacle (from my end) to our recovery is my anger management (or lack thereof). I think that in many ways that needs to be my focus right now, because MP has been so damaged by it that even the occasional setback is damaging.

I made an observation in IC yesterday. Even though I want MP's support and help, I may not get it. But it's quite possible that if I continue to improve, to work on myself, that she will notice the changes and begin to take a more active role in helping me. It's not a guarantee, but it sure sounds plausible. Indeed, I've seen instances where when I consistently meet her needs, she, at the very least, makes an effort to meet mine - this is something I've seen recently, post-A.

The IC I saw yesterday is going to send me a letter detailing a plan to get my anger under control. I want to learn non-violent, non-aggressive, non-attacking ways of expressing my anger, as well as learning to let things go and not stew on them.

I'm also still trying to learn to identify the root cause of my anger - rather than stating that I'm angry, stating what it is that's upset me, and why. Hopefully in a non-confrontational manner.

Add to that to learn to accept disappointment...not expect it (as has been my mantra for the last 3 or 4 years). Disappointment will happen - but I need to handle it better.

Rin -


Hmm....good question. Generally, I'd say that if it was something that I did that put you in a bad mood, then yes I'd be responsible. But I'm learning to change that view. A person's reaction to me is theirs to own. I may have done something that caused the reaction, but how they react is up to them. So from that perspective, no, it's not my fault that they chose to be in a bad mood.

Thanks for the link to the feeling words - guess it's time to up my vocabulary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thanks. I tend to do the all-or-nothing thing - either I've got it nailed, or I'm completely screwed up. I don't do the "well, it's better than yesterday" review very well. Probably ties into my pendulum swings - going from one extreme to the other. Talk about being off-balanced <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But yes, you are right. Often working on the things that are within your control (improving them or fixing them) have a positive affect on things outside your control. At the very least, it can improve your view of things and how you handle things.

As for the MIL issue, LA, you do have a point. I think there it boils down to lack of clear communication between MP & I. We never set a firm date up, just implied one. What I should have done was make my feelings known when it appeared that our date might be in jeapordy. I'm sure an alternate schedule could have been worked out. MIL is aware of our situation (MP confessed to her before I even got all the details). In fact, on Sunday MP needed to run an errand, and MIL opted to stay behind and watch DD so I could go with my wife since she sensed I wanted some time with her.

BIL is having problems in his marriage (just over a year), and MIL even stated that he and his wife needed to stop providing shelter for every homeless friend they had, because they needed time to bond as husband and wife, mother and father. So it wasn't a case of MIL overriding my wishes, it was a case of me not speaking up for me. Part of the CA that I'm beginning to identify within me.

So that's where we're at. I keep asking myself are we in recovery? In reality, I'm beginning to realizt that I'm asking myself "Are we in recovery as I define it or expect it?", and the two are not necessarily the same.

I often feel like we're not in recovery because things aren't going the way I want them to fast enough. I've really got to change my perspective on that. I have very real fears, based on very real experiences. I also have lots of evidence that those fears are based in the past, not in the present.

MP gets frustrated with me for second-guessing things or looking for hidden meanings. I am moving away from that, but I also shared with her that her actions have led me to question things that I would never have before. She also feels I'm emotionally fragile right now. Duh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But those are hers to own, not mine.

I cannot predict the future. I do not know where this will end. I do have a lot of hope though. I learn more every day. Someday I may even successfully apply it all on a consistent basis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll take another look at this later Bird. Just wanted to let you know I have been thinking of you but I gotta run now.

Broken,

You must CHANGE the FRAME of your relationship with Magpie: Life and your M are not all about her. As long as you accept the Frame Magpie imposes on you, you will forever be slaving yourself unsuccessfully to please and appease her, a never ending process.

Good luck.

Thank you for your post, BB...

Help me out...I'm dense...I don't feel settled on the commitment to the marriage issue...MP committed to working on the marriage awhile ago, and you don't feel she is, because it's within the gray part of black and white?

What?

I had a deep relaxation day yesterday, and then a traumatic first, back to deep relaxation...this inability to understand where you stand could all be me, you know this...

Help me out...

And let me know what you think of UVA's post, too... 'k? Think it applies to all the relationships you have, including your boss?

LA

bigkahuna -


Thanks - no hurry, I'm not going anywhere (well, we're about to go see Superman Returns, but we'll be back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

UVA -

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. I'm not looking (at least consciously) to appease her, but I do want to please her. What should the frame of my relationship with MP be? That of two people, equal but different, engaged in a relationship to each other by choice?

I'm slowly getting that (I think)...the separate but equal concept is very hard for me to wrap my brain around.

Hi LA -

When MP went on the second trip, I gave her a list of things I wanted from her when/if she came back. Two of those were NC and to commit to working on the marriage.

NC has been a process, though it appears we are finally there.

The commitment I felt I wasn't getting from her, because she's had a sort of "wait and see" attitude. I.e., she's open to our marriage continuing, but she doesn't have (or didn't have at the time) a lot of hope that it could.

On the other hand, I'm fully committed to the marriage, and I felt that her "wait and see" attitude was a mask for a lack of commitment on her part.

Now I think that my feelings on that are driven more by the fact that she's not doing it the way I want it done, in my time frame. In other words, if it's not my way it's the highway kind of mentality, which isn't very productive in the long run.

I didn't quite understand UVA's post. I look forward to any clarification he can give me, as I respect his opinions and insights (along with many others on these forums, even when I don't always agree with or understand them).

Now it's time for a movie....and to get out of this heat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LA -


Missed this earlier in my haste to reply before the movie (wound up seeing Cars btw). I hope you've recovered from whatever the traumatic thing was....deep relaxation is good though.

BB,

One of the conditions of coming back to your home from her second trip was committing to working on the marriage, and she came back...

Did she say, in words, to you...I am comitted to working on the marriage, and if so, for how long? Or did she say the words, "I want to wait and see how this goes, how much you've changed, before I commit to working on our marriage?"

That's a ground floor statement...and I am wondering what she has really stated...separate from what you are interpreting.

I do understand the old BB...my way or the highway...and how swinging 180 from that is as detrimental as the way it was...there's a 90 degree answer for you, BB...and part of it is her stating her commitment, I believe, and the plan she's made for working on the marriage.

We've talked about the pleasing BB...and the authentic BB you wanted to get to...where you consciously choose what you do as acts of love, not to please her, change her mood, up the level of her commitment, but as pure choice to love; knowing what you're doing is not for the result.

Looks the same from the outside...all different from the inside.

That's what I thought UVA was saying about living to the construct, the frame, MP has devised or you believe is hers.

As to my astonishingly extreme Friday...yes, I recovered faster than I have before...24 hours or so, and am really pleased with myself for not being wrecked...a FOO issue hitting my Achilles' heel.

You gonna share which book MP gave you for your anniversary? You know I'm a book fiend.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Her card meant a lot to you...and that's where I got the stated commitment urge even more...I heard you were looking for signs, rather than interpreting attitude...that you are thirsty for fact. Am I close?

LA

LA -


This is a hard one to answer, and one that honestly only MP could answer, as I can only go on memory.

At least up until a couple of months ago, her stated position was along the lines of "I'm open to this working out, but I don't have any hope that it can/will." To me, that's not a very positive statement. A more positive statement to me would have been "I don't know if this will work out, but I'm going to give it a 100%".

I asked her (back in Feb, I think) about her committment, and her answer was a fairly snappish (to me) "I'm her, aren't I?".

Honestly, I do think my fears lie more in my perception. I have this picture in my mind of what recovery looks like, and in reviewing it I think I've substituted "recovered" for "recovery" - that whole living in the future thing for me again.

It's a form of BS entitlement, to, I think. Sort of the "Look at me, I'm the dashing hero(ine), standing strong for our marriage while you kick me in the gut. Why won't you recognize that and fall to the ground at my feet worshipping me for saving you?" mentality.

What it really boils down to is what you (and some others) have pointed out - I'm still deriving my sense of identity and self-worth from MP. That's not only unhealthy, it's rather unfair to her - why should she be responsible for me?

We hit a bit of a rough patch after the movie, though I think we've moved forward again. I learned a couple of valuable things.

First, I really need to be aware of my emotional state before I launch into O&H discussions. If I'm hurting or fearful, or angry or upset, and laucnh into an immediate O&H discussion, it usually devolves pretty quickly into an argument. I'm reacting from my fear or pain, not from my head.

Maybe an example will make more sense. So after the movie, we went to a restaraunt so DD (who appears to get way amped up in hot sunny weather) could play in the play area. MP was silent, and mentioned she should have brought a book to read. I replied yeah, or she could talk to me.

She responded with She couldn't think of anything to talk to me about.

Button pushed.

Fear - my wife values me so little that she would rather read a book than talk to me.

Reaction - state fear under the guise of being O&H.

Her reaction - get frustrated with me.

It went down from there, but eventually got salvaged. Where do I think I went wrong? By reacting out of fear.

Better way to do it? Haven't quite gotten that one figured out. Definately take a couple of breaths to process. Perhaps repeat what I heard "I hear you saying you don't have anything to talk to me about?"

Then what? Leave it at that?

The second thing I learned (or think I learned) was more about anger and resentment. I brought that up again (same conversation), and she stated that she didn't think there was anything she could do to help me with that, other than give me time to get through it.

To me, the obvious thing is to apologize and show remorse. That will help. But I also agreed that ultimately only I can decide to release my anger and resentment. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm subsconsciously holding on to my anger and resentment because I'm awaiting some sort of validation from my wife?

So yes, it's a daily struggle for me to act without wanting recognition, even though I know that's the truest form of love and service.


So I live to my frame (my code), and leave MP to hers? Or do I try to understand hers, from her (not as I perceive it), and live to it from my code? Back to the separate but equal thing again, eh?

I'm glad you recovered quickly - I wouldn't want to see an unhappy LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sounds like your Achille's Heel is getting armored <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Star Wars: Legacy of the Force - Betrayal (by Aaron Allston). It's the first book in a new series that takes place after the New Jedi Order (about 30+ years after Return of the Jedi). I'm a big Star Wars fan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yes, I am thirsty for fact. I like to live with concrete stuff, which is probably why I'm having such a hard time with some of these concepts you're sharing. I'm constantly looking for the little things, and trying to divine meaning from them.

Perhaps I'm so focused on the little things that I'm not seeing the big things? Or I'm focusing on the little things as an excuse to not focus on me?

Things progress. I know it's up and down. Things are, I think, on an upswing. I've got some nagging fears/concerns, but I try to displace them unless there's a solid (factual) reason for them. I know that right now there's a lot on MP's mind, and I fear there may be somethings that I should know that I don't, but I also know that fear is driven from events over the last year, and may not necessarily be valid today.

I've shared with her my committment to managing my anger, and I share with her what I learn from my setbacks, as well as what drives my recent anger periods, at least when I can figure it out.

She has lots of words from me - I'm doing my best to back them up with action. When all is said and done, that's about the best I can do.

I've been struggling a little with something for the last week. It's something that is not uncommon (at least the thought of) for a BS, but I'm surprised it's showing up now, 8+ months post D-Day.

Well, it did show up around D-Day, but I thought it was behind me.

What am I talking about? Thoughts of a revenge A. No, I don't have an existing opportunity, nor do I intend to seek one out.

I'm just really surprised to have it show up now, especially as MP and I seem to be making forward progress.

It's the worst thing I could do, and it's not who I am (or at least who I think I am). Just rather bothered that it's here now.

Is this normal? And what do I do about it (besides the obvious of not doing it, and not thinking about it)? Ignore it in the expectation that it will go away? Tell myself no over and over until it does? Spank my bottom for being a bad boy?

bb,
Check out rprynne's post on BobPure's thread about BS's forgiving themselves for staying. He mentions revenge affairs only in passing... but if his assessment is on target... 8 mos out, when forward progress is beginning to be made, is just about the right time for these thoughts. Hope it helps a little.
--SC

BB,

"What it really boils down to is what you (and some others) have pointed out - I'm still deriving my sense of identity and self-worth from MP. That's not only unhealthy, it's rather unfair to her - why should she be responsible for me?"

I think this is extraordinarily honest for you...can you hold onto this firmly inside yourself? Unfair to YOU and to her.

"First, I really need to be aware of my emotional state before I launch into O&H discussions. If I'm hurting or fearful, or angry or upset, and laucnh into an immediate O&H discussion, it usually devolves pretty quickly into an argument. I'm reacting from my fear or pain, not from my head."

Can you backpedal from "O&H discussions" to O&H statements? From you, simple, informative, not discussions? Remember the drive-bys? Could going back and practicing those help you get to "I'm hurting right now, after the movie, and I'm struggling to get my full "why" of it. Would you like a snack?"

Practicing, BB...this isn't natural...we are not raised to disclose our feelings, thoughts and beliefs...at ALL. Re-training our brain is the significant part of adulthood. And when we feel strongly...pain, anger, fear, frustration, attacked...where do we go automatically? Back to childhood. Do you think you're alone in this? No way! Practicing, even in your own thoughts, tells self you really do embrace your identity...and speaking those thoughts reinforces it...knowing and being known.

Since you've done this before, maybe I can add something here...humor. You have a great sense of humor. I believe you see things, every day stuff, that strikes you as funny...and don't necessarily share those funny impressions...if you think they will make you look stupid or naive. Share them anyway...laughing with yourself...increases your honesty muscle...and I believe, it was one of the things MP found so attractive in you to begin with...because you have your own unique perception...and sharing it may give you the muscle mass to share all the rest...fearing your own feelings, thoughts and beliefs...which teaches you, by sharing, there is nothing to fear...they are yours.

The caution here is to NOT be self-deprecating...my H taught me this...when I put myself down, he feels it...he feels put down for me...I know, enmeshment...but it did teach me that I don't look humble or not weird for sharing and then judging myself aloud...just share.

Freeing experience...i.e., you're driving down the road, reading those signs on stores and restaurants...those marquis...and you misread something and do a double-take...and laugh...say it outloud, "I read that as _____! It's really ____" Okay, so I have a lot of these moments and they are funny to me. Don't have to be scintillating...it's about the sharing and not judging exercise.

After movie, you DJ'd yourself...which began the devolving...

"She responded with She couldn't think of anything to talk to me about." That would be her shortcoming, not about you.

"Button pushed." Move your buttons, BB. You have to set your belief that you know you are interesting (you're human), whole and complete...before you will stop DJing her. Otherwise, you'll continue. She didn't have anything in her head, her stuff that she could think of sharing...doesn't say a thing about you, BB. Know this.

Now, I have to run...I'll continue your filet later.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm so happy you're here.

LA

Hi SC -

I read rprynne's post (not the whole thread though). It was helpful - thanks. In fact, I liked his ledger analogy very much. It puts my feelings in a new perspective - I'm feeling uncompensated for the hard work I've done, and it's impeding my ability and willigness to let go of my anger and bitterness.

Solution? Stop looking for compensation for my hard work, and get my compensation (satisfaction) from myself. Anything else good is just icing on the cake.

Easier said than done, but I'll give it a shot.

Here's a question perhaps you (or other FWWs) could answer. Is this something I should disclose to MP? I don't want to cause her unnecessary worry, but I don't want to start selectively closing off parts of me to her either.

Hi LA -


I can certainly try. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> After all, deriving my self-worth and self-respect from her is simply another form of unattractive neediness, right?


To use a Navy term, "shoot and scoot"? Make my statements and leave it at that?

I can see where making an O&H statement, and then expecting a response, and not getting the expected response, can rapidly accelerate the devolution of a situation.

As I told MP last night, I need to check myself before opening my mouth, because I have a tendency to say things in a fashion that will almost always lead to a devolution. Almost a sub-concsious method of guaranteting conflict (a fancy way of saying picking a fight).

Not sure how to make a non-confrontational statement out of feeling like she didn't value me enough to talk to me. Any suggestions? Or should I just ignore something like that?


I am the master of self-deprecating humor - I'm my own best target <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have been laughing together more - both at shared jokes, and at stuff the kids do. Self-deprecating humor can be a hard thing to judge, IMO, though.

For example, yesterday we were talking about me saying something that made MP characterize me as a [email]smart-@ss.[/email] I asked her isn't that why you married me?

She said I married you for your eyes and your money.

So I said You've told me that you couldn't marry anyone who was stupid, to which she said that was true.

Then I followed up with "It's not your fault that my brains are in my @ss." which got a laugh out of her (and I like making her laugh). Is that self-deprecating? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Got to identify them first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But that's what I'm working on - what makes me tick the way I do (especially in the anger department). Once I can recognize those buttons, I can move them or disable them.