"I get the feeling that I'll never shake that feeling unless God lets me. I need some sort of recognition of the situation from somebody. "

And I get the feeling that you will realize at some point that God will let you shake that feeling. If I remember my religious days correctly (and I'm sure I do, because being spiri2al is much the same), the recognition will come from within.

You'll realize there was nothing 2 feel guilty about. Just the anxiety of it. The "what if?"s or the "what could I have done differently?"s.

Things are happening the way they are for a reason. One, we can see: You're getting stronger and closer 2 your God for what you've experienced.

-ol' 2long

cc ~ I hear you loud and clear. So many Catholic human beings in my life have used religion for so many unhealthy agendas that sometimes I have a hard time sorting out what is Catholic teaching and what was twisted and and used for an individual's sick agenda.

I think you are doing the right thing by forming your conscience before choosing your path of action.

I struggled for a long time with acceptance. I didn't want many realities that existed in my life. I tried very hard to ignore them and pretend they weren't there (mega-denial-I'm the queen). I did terrible damage to myself, terrible hurt to myself in my attempt to write the reality of my life as I wanted it be. Thats what it means to have self-will run rampant.

I hear that same hurt and devastation in your "voice" here.

I suspect that you aren't ready to make ANY decision yet, because you just haven't healed yet.


Ooooh boy. I recongize myself here big time. Can I share something that I have learned about myself from experience?

I found that I feel guilty when I am feeilng powerful over things that... in reality... I have no control over. I feel powerful (unaccepting of reality as it IS) when I think that if maybe I can just do one more thing...that I can by my own volition... remake reality to my own satisfaction.

It is self-will not just run rampant, but self-will run completely delusional, and on a high speed collision course with reality - with myself caught in the middle.

In your case, that one more thing, is seeking external permission to let go of something that, my dear, you never had control over in the first place.

Permission will not offer relief, at least not in the way you are seeking it now.

Acceptance will.

Incredulous?

I was. I am a stubborn broad. I have alot of will power! I had to get hammered repeatedly before I gave up my will and began to only acknowledge to the very depths of my soul only the responsiblity for things that I really could control - which was ME.

I want to encourage you to really revisit the issue of annulment. It's a very badly misunderstood issue. The Church doesn't make your marriage disappear. Like it or accept it - or not - it simply states what IS.

It doesn't erase the years of marriage or your children (which is why these children are not illegitimate, and you are NOT guilty of fornication!). An annulment simply says that one or both of you did not have the ability to enter into or fulfill the lifelong marital vow.

MrWondering are you out there? Correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I'm gonna use a law analogy and I'll probably screw it up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ! Legal, in civil contracts, one must meet a number of requirements to make that contract binding. Children can not be legally bound by signing a contract. People of impaired mental capacity can sign anything - and not have it stick in a court of law.

Now, a mentally impaired person might sign an agreement, and even fulfill the obligations of the contract for any length of time...but that does not mean the individual is legally bound to do so. At some point, when the contract is broken, the offended party sues, and the contract is found to be invalid....does it erase the reality, that occured during the time that both parties imagined themselves bound?

The Catholic Church takes the sacrament of marriage very seriously indeed. Like the civil law regarding civil contracts, the requirements for a binding vow to take place are actually pretty specific.

When a marriage reaches the point that your's has, it becomes reasonable to investigate the beginnings of the marriage and see if it had sound, binding beginnings. Did you both enter willingly, without outside pressure or societal coercement (ie a shotgun wedding!). Did you both honestly believe and intend lifelong fidelity? Your husband's affair is an indication that maybe, the moral conviction and intention of monogamy required for a lifetime agreement was not there. Maybe it was. I can not say. What the Church does is investigate thoroughly and take statements from all involved and attempt to determine if the requirements were there...just as a court may do psychological evaluations to determine the ability of someone to enter into a binding contract.

Look around at our society and the grave emotional and spiritual misery that so many suffer from. We live in an emotional wasteland. Look at the pressures, the widespread disconnect from God. Is it truely any surprise that the Church finds so many are not able to enter into a lifelong contract?

One more thing dear - how would it feel - to find out that your marriage failed, not because of your failures, but because of a flaw (intentional or not) on the part of your husband?

Wouldn't that be permission?


________________________________
PS I'm re reading this and seeing a TON of typos. I had a stroke a few years ago, in the visual cortex of my brain, and so while I know how to spell just fine, thank you very much, my eyeballs don't see when I make mistakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Bear with me ok? Thanks!

Branblerose,
I will assume you are refering to my shotgun wedding??? It wasn't - we made a conscience decision to have our child - she was planned - not a mistake - because we wanted to have a small wedding and it was getting out of hand - hence the pregnancy - knowing that my parents would rush the wedding. Now in hindsight not too smart but we had been engaged 6 months before I even became pregnant.

I guess I understand the concept of annulment in certain circumstances - but not when the one seeking the annulment re-writes history - like most WS. And I wrote the truth and it got me no where - he used the "unplanned" pregnancy to get the annulment and I'm sure neither he or the OW admitted their affair. It was always my understanding that annulments were for short term marriages - not 26 year marriages. We had 3 children we were married for 26 years. How does anyone - church or otherwise have the right to declare that invalid???

I had a brother who was married for 3 years - no children and he got an annulment - no children to hurt with this - and yes - it hurt my children - my youngest hardly has any relationship with his father. He actually wants to change his name - I have asked him not too - for his grandmother's sake. So please don't tell me the catholic church believes in the sanctity of marriage - they allowed two know cheaters to receive annulments on marriages totaling more than 40 years so they can re-marry in the church??? Why even make an annulment neccessary for them to do that - it sure would have saved a world or hurt for me, the ow husband and my children.

still with ya' cc...I've just got my head back in the foxhole...

cc,
I'm glad my post helped - it helped me writing it. I have a major problem with the church now - to me they chose my wayward husband who didn't go to church for 30 years instead of me - the faithful catholic who attended mass every year with her children. I am more bitter about the annulment than anything else that happened. I wish I didn't feel this way but I do.

happyfinally,

no, i wasn't referring to your situation at all. It just so happens that coercion due to pregnancy invalidates the marital vow.

Just as any legal contract can not be binding if coerced...

Bramblerose,

Well what if there was no coercion - what if it was a mutual decision to have a child and he lied about it to get a divorce???? For years we told our child that - I never lied to her about me being pregnant and her father and I would show her the pictures and point to my stomach and tell her there she was - we wanted her as fast as possible. So he has the right to go and lie - he LIED to the Church to get his annulment. We were engaged for 6 months before I got pregnant - he LIED. So should I just feel the annulment isn't legal because of that????

happyfinally ~

Your understanding about annullments for only short term marriages was incorrect. Length of marriage does not really determine whether or not both of you were actually capable of entering into a LIFETIME vow at the time of your marriage.

Annulment does not mean that the person asking for it was RIGHT.

It just means that one of you (probably HIM) was not capable to enter into the vow you took all those years ago.

Did it ever occure to you that maybe the church found your husband to be lacking...not you?

Maybe they looked at him, saw that he was of such a character that he could not enter into a binding marriage vow with you, and that was their basis for setting YOU free?

How would denying the annulment changed anything?

Would it have made your husband come home?

You can't even apply for annulment until the civil divorce is complete...so ...

If your husband had been denied an annullment, do you think it would have stopped him from getting a marriage elsewhere?

Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished ~ I would beg to differ.

I think the Catholic Church has begun to take emotional health very seriously into account.

We live in a society that is rampant with emotinal and spiritual disease, and the Church does not hold us to binding contracts that we are not capable of entering into with a fully formed conscience.

(((((happyfinally)))))

hugs to both you and your children.

Cherished and Forever hers.
Thank you so much - knowing people can understand helps a lot.

Bramblerose,

Give me a break please - not many people enter into a marriage and find after 25 years that they weren't ready or that it wasn't what they wanted. He left because he found someone 16 years younger than him to take my place. I was there through all of it - the good the bad - raising the children and once they were grown he felt it was his right to leave. He re-wrote our history and our marriage to get what he wanted and no where in the papers does it say he is lacking - just that we were too young and had an unplanned pregnancy. Which is totally untrue.

No one - church or otherwise has the right the tell me that 26 years of my life were invalid. And to me theu should be allowed to remarry in the church whether there is an annulment or not. I know they will marry and truly I am ok with that but not the annulment.

The saddest part is my youngest son and the way he is hurt by this - no one can tell me it's right. I don't care what the circumstances.

I missed a few things. No it won't make my husband come home well since I was never married I guess I can't call him that - and I don't want him to come home - I am happy - hence the name. But the annulment is a sore subject with me. I don't think it's right at all.

If he wasn't happy and not able to commit to his vows it sure took him long enough to find out. 26 years is a long time to fake a marriage. And if anyone had grounds for an annulment it was me - but I would never have done it - ever - because I know it would have hurt my children. And my marriage was valid - it was a marriage not a mistake.

It just seems to me that this is the crux of the matter and it has nothing to do with the topic of your thread even though you believe it does. You asked me if I was religious and I gave you my answer. My view of things is quite simple. My belief is that each of us is put here for the sole purpose of making a choice. We are only responsible for our own choices. Whatever the "cause" or "causes" of your separation, they were problems with multiple solutions. Your WH chose a solution that was simply wrong in anybody's religion. But it was HIS choice.

You may feel responsible (guilty) for "causing" your WH to seek an OW but you have no reason to. IMO what you need to talk to the priest about is not a religious divorce but rather this guilt you burden yourself with unnecessarily. In other words, when are you going to forgive yourself? God forgave you. Why can't you? Do you know something he doesn't?

Look, I'm not trying to hurt you.

I'm just pointing out that YOU did have grounds for annullment and he asked for one, so the church granted one (I am willing to bet that the church investigators saw right through your husband's crap, and set YOU free - rather than keep you bound to a man who could NOT be the husband you wanted).

If it helps you to understand where I am coming from, I could ask for annullment from my husband RIGHT NOW and get one, based on his alcoholism, which was clearly present before our wedding. He made some rather inappropriate comments about marriage on videotape at the rehearsal dinner also...indicating that he was NOT in a state mentally and emotionally to enter into a marriage.

I haven't been married 26 years. But I have 15 under my belt. Hardly a 'short term' marriage.

But I have children, and I've chosen to stay. I am NOT in a state of sin by staying in this marriage although I do not have to stay.

The Church isn't wiping out the good years you had. That's why your children are NOT illegitimate.

I know you are hurting and angry - but it was not the Church that did this to you, it was your husband.

Hey T,

are you singing??????? I hope so.

My feeling of guilt is not about WH going wayward. That was HIS CHOICE. I've never felt guilty about that.I don't even have any what ifs!

My guilt is about abandoning him while he is wayward. I feel terribly sorry for him. I know it sounds stupid but it's what you mean when you say "for better or for worse". Our marriage is at it's worse now and I'm thinking of abandoning it. See?

On the other hand I am too intense as a person to live in WH's shadow forever. I used to think that if he ever cheated I would divorce him immediately but as we all know I didn't. And I do think part of the reason I didn't was that he acted so sick.

Anyway, that's what my guilt is about. Most of my family and friends don't understand why I don't divorce him, or at least start dating...

My daughters have all asked me to please divorce him.

Anyway, I have a few months left of plan B to figure things out and decide.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is a perfectly valid reason that it sounds stupid? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Come again? An Annulment DOES erase the years of marriage, or at least a standard dictionary definition of "Annul" (Webster's New World Dictionary) states; from the Latin annullare, to bring to nothing, to do away with; nullify; cancel.

Either you ARE married or you are not. If not, then the sex is fornication and the children from such activity are illegitimate. IF you ARE married, the children are legitimate. Today there may not be as much "stigma" on illegitimacy as there once was, with the lessening of societal mores and morals, but that does not change the definition.

An annulment simply says that one or both of you did not have the ability to enter into or fulfill the lifelong marital vow.

So the church definition of marriage is ONLY pertinant to a lifelong marital vow? It "equates" marriage to a simple legal contract and not a COVENANT WITH GOD? How does that square with Scripture when Jesus tells the Pharisees that a LEGAL marriage (in His eyes, and therefore in God's eyes) CAN be ended because of adultery (marital unfaithfulness)?

On the surface, this seems to be a convoluted twisting of simple Scripture.

How about when Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and told her that she had "many husband's." That did not imply that her sexual proclivity made it "okay," but it did state that HE (Jesus) recognized a "union" had taken place (in the "one flesh" condition that God established in the Garden of Eden).

What God has joined together let not man separate. It is GOD who sets the rules and there are two of them, one for Christians and one for unevenly yoked marriages.

But let's also go beyond the manipulations of the Church to come up with "Mosaic-like" reasons of nullifying a marriage similar to the "rules" that the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus with concerning divorce. Regardless of the sin...Adultery is NOT fatal in God's eyes when it is repented of. But we should also not forget that God hates adultery and adultery is a very serious problem. So that does NOT mean that we should sin with impunity or with willful disregard for God's commands. But it DOES mean that Jesus' death provides forgiveness for ALL sins of one who has repented of them and who has accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.

So while divorce may be, or should be, the last resort, it is not the "final word." The "Final Word" from God to HIS children is "your sins are as white as snow, they are forgiven for my Son's sake, and I have put them so far away that they are as far as the East is from the West. That's ALL of your sins, not just some of them.

For one like cc46 who is seeking with all her heart to "DO" in accord with God's will, God grants the Peace that surpasses all understanding....she is a FORGIVEN daughter of God. NOTHING more needs to be done, Jesus Christ did it all for her. Christ grants HER the right to a dissolution of her marriage because her husband committed adultery. That plain. That simple. From the mouth of God to cc46's heart...."except for...."

Thank you Jesus for your great gift. It is by Grace that we are saved, not of works, lest ANY man should boast.

God bless.

cc, you love your husband but you are NOT "abandoning" your marriage if you decide to proceed with a divorce. God granted you the right to divorce, especially if your husband remains unrepentant and unwilling to submit to God in humble obedience.

Does God (Christ) "abandon" people at the Final Judgment when He tells many who think they are Christians but never really were, "Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you?"

Without passing judgment at this point, your husband may well fit into that latter category of "Christian in name only" and "not in heart." OBVIOUSLY NO unrepentant adulterer will be heaven because they are in the list of those who will NOT be heaven. If that is the case, then they can "call" themselves anything they like, but they are "abandoning" God, not the other way around. They are choosing He11, not Heaven. They are rejecting Christ, not humbly accepting the Sovereignty of God and His gift by which we can be saved.

Neither are you abandoning your husband. EVEN IF he IS a believer who is caught up deeply in the sin induced fog, Christ gave you the right to a divorce because adultery is THAT serious in God's eyes. I suspect, though, that if your husband were to repent and cast himself upon God's mercy and upon your mercy, you would forgive him and attempt to recover and rebuild your marriage. But if he will not repent, divorce may be the "tool" that God uses to finally break through his fog and reach him. Remember, married or not, the primary concern should be for his soul, which is lost in unrepented adultery.

God bless.